"Internalizing the Oppression"

[visiblenoise]

So let's get this straight. The entire society is wrong and TERRIBLE, because they don't conform to ideas of a few individuals that are either too lazy to get off their ass and make themselves more attractive or they're unable to do that for some reason. Do these people even know hot attraction works? How society works? How humans are hardwired? Their entire argument is based on ignorance and butthurt.

You know what else isn't attractive? That kind of attitude. And since this is clearly about people being butthurt that they're not as attractive as what is society's standard, let's also mention a few other non-attractive features. How about acne, being crippled, facial deformities, amputees, hairiness, warts and other skin diseases, being too skinny, bad odor etc.

Why aren't all of those people complaining that the world is a terrible place for not finding them attractive? Why is it that only fat people are offended? Why don't people with skin conditions or big noses demand that Lara Croft grows a giant wart on her giant nose and grow armpit hair? Why is fat the only problem worth talking about?

Do you "body justice warriors" actually think that you make sense? That you're right and you're fighting the good fight? You're not. Nobody cares. Nobody will ever care. Your body type may be attractive to some people, but it isn't and it won't be considered universally attractive and there's nothing wrong with that. If you disagree, then lose some weight. But don't go around telling people that they're terrible because they don't like you the way that you are. Cry me a fuckin' river? How did these people survive this long being that weak?

There's nothing wrong with people who aren't attracted to fat people and there's nothing wrong with portraying fictional characters with body type that is considered attractive in current society. If you can't handle that, then you're the one with a problem.

Maybe they're just clear that when people write a page talking about not caring, they care.

One person has used 'care' liberally and the other has confused "caring about the issue" with "sympathizing with fat people"

 

[Ariseishirou]

They're obtainable by little more than mild exercise and a proper diet.

Mild exercise and eating well will give me bigger tits? Shit, how has this never happened to me? I train for triathlons, and every time I cut body fat, my breasts - being 75-90% fat, like all other women's breasts in the world - get smaller, not larger.

What exercises can I do, and what can I eat to turn my A-cups in to D-cups, as in the "realistic" idealized picture? All I'm ending up with is muscle tone and smaller tits. How do I spot-gain breast fat without getting "undesirable" fat elsewhere on my body, too?

 

[CopperheadSK]

OP's got the right idea, but I wouldn't call anything from DoA a 'healthy ideal'.

Yes. There is a huge problem with female representation and body types not just in games, but in pretty much everything. I think Movie Bob summed this up best (Before he went crazy) in one of his Big Picture videos, where he compared the ratio of non-lean/non-fit (IE: not ideal) men with the ratio of non-lean/non-fit (IE: not ideal) women. The results, while unsurprising, are still damned depressing. (I can't remember the video's title, so sorry if anyone wants to see it. Might try to find it later.) Hell, even Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 -- often considered one the best female characters in gaming -- has a body that most people could only get with religious dieting and exercise. (Though, given she's a resistance fighter in a dystopian future, I think that can be excused.)

THAT SAID. OP's right (At least partially.) about the kinds of people who constantly ***** about this sort of thing. They often have a hard time distinguishing between idealization and cartoonish exaggeration, and their opinions are often skewed by personal insecurities and a perceived sense of 'oppression'.

But if you ask me? The real tragedy lies in these radicals getting all the attention whenever the issue is brought up, while people with legitimate, reasonable concerns have their voices drowned out amidst a cacophony of shouting.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

I saw this posted on another forum. It was linked to facebook so I uploaded it to imgur instead. I couldn't agree with it more.

 

[Silvanus]

Not applied to men? Excuse me...it's just as applied to men as women. Have you seen the physiques of many characters in video games, either steroid tank beefcake or waifisish perfect skinned slender but chiseled bishie.

Steroid tank beefcake, of course, is a body type that I sincerely doubt is included with women in mind. As for numerical equivalence, I can only speak from experience, but I really don't see parity there-- fantasy games will tend to include bikini armour designs for numerous sets, but you'll have to hunt around for a male set that shows a hint of chest. Even my old mainstay, GW1, was guilty of that, though GW2 has improved on it vastly.

As for busty ladies. Believe it or not. women have big boobs. and strangely enough if you start saying it's bad to portray women with DD's in media and games well what are you saying to the women who possess those bust sizes and body types?

I didn't say it's bad to portray women with DD's in media-- my position is that it's frustrating when the balance is thrown so out of whack that average sizes are rarer.

Media portrays an idealized fantasy. It's why virtually no one in movies poops (unless it's meant to be funny).

Wish-fulfilment media, certainly. Most good art isn't purely that.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

Steroid tank beefcake, of course, is a body type that I sincerely doubt is included with women in mind.

Careful there, a while back I tried arguing this and was met with a bunch of other guys trying to convince me that Marcus Fenix and Kratos are designed to be eye candy.

 

[renegade7]

On the one hand, "internalized oppression" actually is a real thing. Though I disagree with the melodramatic language of the term, it is true that vulnerable minorities may find themselves believing in the very ideas that make them vulnerable in the first place. The classic example would be gay people who do not want to come out and tell other gay people not to come out because they believe that being openly gay will offend anti-gay religious people, despite the fact that the social stigma created by homophobes is the very reason gays have any reason to worry about coming out in the first place.

On the other hand, it tends to get abused a lot by what I suppose we could call pseudo-sociologists as an escape hatch and indicates a genuine lack of understanding of others' positions; it is a functionally similar accusation as the suggestion that one's debate opponent is possessed by demons. The underlying assertion is that the opponent is a victim of the very evil the debater claims to be fighting, and if only the opponent wasn't being controlled by said enemy they would instantly agree with you. If your position is that women are forced to follow an ideal imposed on them by men, then a woman who says she has her own reasons for wanting to lose weight is problematic for this position.

This also belies the assumption that the only reason female characters are idealized by designers is so that they can be eye-candy for male players. I find this a bit patronizing as a man because it seems to assert that the only reason I can appreciate a woman's beautiful appearance is a desire to have sex with her. It's human nature that beautiful people are naturally preferred to plain people and that people want to associate with beautiful people, and "beauty" is defined by scarcity. And if it was just about wanting to screw, why are the male protagonists of media targeted at males also often designed to be ideally beautiful in some way? And why are female protagonists in media targeted at females often also designed to be ideally beautiful?

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

Not applied to men? Excuse me...it's just as applied to men as women. Have you seen the physiques of many characters in video games, either steroid tank beefcake or waifisish perfect skinned slender but chiseled bishie.

Steroid tank beefcake, of course, is a body type that I sincerely doubt is included with women in mind. As for numerical equivalence, I can only speak from experience, but I really don't see parity there-- fantasy games will tend to include bikini armour designs for numerous sets, but you'll have to hunt around for a male set that shows a hint of chest. Even my old mainstay, GW1, was guilty of that, though GW2 has improved on it vastly.

I wouldn't say there is a strictly 1 to 1 parity (as in boob armor for men and women equally) but I would say it is pretty close in terms of concept. Men in fiction are portrayed just as ideally, just with different types of ideals being portrayed. Just as there are many types of ideal women portrayed in fiction there are many types of ideal men portrayed in fiction. These male ideals are just as impossible for men to obtain as the female ideal is impossible for women to obtain and are far more arbitrary to boot. And men are punished very directly and often extremely harshly by their peers when they fail to live up to that standard.

It is not the same standard and maybe not even the same kind of standard, but it is just as impossibly idealized and damaging. Just consider how many men have a completely overblown fear of appearing feminine in any way and show outright hostility and contempt for behaviors, ideas or even colors they code as feminine. Some men are even so damaged by this arbitrary standard that they feel threatened when any man fails to live up to the standard of manliness and respond very negatively toward such individuals.

 

[Silvanus]

I wouldn't say there is a strictly 1 to 1 parity (as in boob armor for men and women equally) but I would say it is pretty close in terms of concept. Men in fiction are portrayed just as ideally, just with different types of ideals being portrayed. Just as there are many types of ideal women portrayed in fiction there are many types of ideal men portrayed in fiction. These male ideals are just as impossible for men to obtain as the female ideal is impossible for women to obtain and are far more arbitrary to boot. And men are punished very directly and often extremely harshly by their peers when they fail to live up to that standard.

It is not the same standard and maybe not even the same kind of standard, but it is just as impossibly idealized and damaging. Just consider how many men have a completely overblown fear of appearing feminine in any way and show outright hostility and contempt for behaviors, ideas or even colors they code as feminine. Some men are even so damaged by this arbitrary standard that they feel threatened when any man fails to live up to the standard of manliness and respond very negatively toward such individuals.

If men are equally idealised-- arguable, certainly-- it's not in the same respect, and certainly not as outwardly sexual. I'd be inclined to argue that the idealised men and idealised women are both present in order to cater to the male audience.

Of course, you'll get no argument from me that idealised males can be damaging to the boys and men who endlessly see them.

 

[Paragon Fury]

A few things;

1: I would've included a link to the thread on the other forum, but it got locked and deleted because some other users got a bit too...rowdy and rude with each other so the mods locked it down. Sorry.

2: By "mild exercise" I'm talking about the stuff your doctor would tell you to do; take the stairs, walk as often as possible, ride a bike to work etc. Proper diet is basically....well, not what we eat in the United States. Sure, you won't get the super-toned, nice bodies of the unaltered pictures, but you almost certainly wouldn't look anything like the post-altered pictures either. I mean, hell, I know just from personal experience that the altered picture of Helena is not healthy. Helena Douglas is 5'7...the same height as my mother. My Mom, despite looking relatively alright, still gets crap from her doctor to lose some weight because she is a bit heavy. Am I supposed to believe that the altered Helena, who is easily 2x the size of my mother who already needs to lose a little weight, is supposed to be healthy?

3: Men are just as misrepresented in media as women; yes, even though so many of those characters are "male power fantasies". It seems no one ever stops to ask the follow-up question though; why are they male power fantasies? The answer?

Results. Marcus Fenix, Kratos, Dante, Bayman, Hayabusa, Link (who is actually specifically designed to appeal to women now, or rather A woman, since the designer of Link has been following his wife's guidance for Link's designs since OoT), even in games like Pokemon with the male Champions and Gym Leaders.

Men are designed like that because those kinds of men get results. Men who look and act like they do get the best selection of women, get the most opportunities with women and have the most, we'll call it "purchasing power", with women. As men, even nerdy, socially isolated men like myself, we're constantly told by women and media (IE: Blogs, women's health articles, dating sites etc.)
that women are really more into guys like Gordon Freeman for example...but then, and I'm going to borrow a phrase here...our "lived experience" is that the Gordon Freemans of the world get to go home alone or get to take home the leftovers, while the Dantes, Links, Marcus Fenixes of get to take home the best of the best and the worthwhile ones.

4: I'm pretty sure they were using "Internalized Oppression" against me because I was saying that I didn't disagree with society's standards for men even though I don't meet them (and those of you who have actually seen a picture of me know I don't) and that I should be against it in order to change it to include me.

5: I understand that the bust size is a point of contention, and I suppose I should mention that no, I don't expect them to be that size.

Anymore. Its still a little hard for me to remember that "average" is smaller than what I thought it was growing up. Because when I was growing up, all the women in my life - mom, grandma (I know, EWWWWW), next door neighbor's sister etc. all had, impressive busts. So I grew up thinking someone of Helena/Kasumi's size was the average for adult women, not the out-lier. I mean, hell, the only two women near my age when I was growing up didn't help either; until I went two college the only two girls my age I ever really interacted with looked like (pre altered) Riku and this:

Spoiler

[/imgur]

 

[ThatOtherGirl]

If men are equally idealised-- arguable, certainly-- it's not in the same respect, and certainly not as outwardly sexual. I'd be inclined to argue that the idealised men and idealised women are both present in order to cater to the male audience.

Of course, you'll get no argument from me that idealised males can be damaging to the boys and men who endlessly see them.

As far as being overtly sexual, that is true, the male idealized are only sometimes overtly sexual. But it can be just as much about body image. It is a subtle difference, but women are expected to be a certain way (namely attractive) and all the stereotypes fit into that expectation. Men on the other hand are primarily expected to not be a certain ways, and all the stereotypes fit that expectation. Kratos can be and ugly mass of muscle but Cloud merely putting on a dress and wig is so controversial that people are campaigning to have it removed from the remake because it is so offensive. And yes, I know many of the people campaigning are doing so in the name of not being offensive to trans people (which I personally disagree with), but that alone highlights the problem. A girly man, even temporarily so, is seen as so out of the ordinary that someone somewhere will be offended by it. But why? Only because societies expectations are so strict, unreasonable and punishing about what men are allowed to be, what they are allowed to wear, what they are allowed to say or do or even think.

Female characters that don't fit the stereotype (ie, ugly or plain) are rare, but when they are usually there as some sort of contrast or to signify something about the character. Unmanly male characters are far more common, but they typically don't even get the respect of being significant. A man that does not fit the manly stereotype in fiction is a joke, a person that exists to be openly mocked.

I believe that this is ultimately a much worse problem than the unrealistic depiction of women, especially to the cause of feminism. The expectations placed on men are so strong that it warps the way virtually all men think and act. For many men it is the defining point of how they interact with the world, and unfortunately a lot of what men are expected to be like involves the marginalization of women. To give an example, the damsel in distress trope is only a problem because society's expectation teaches men to think of women as things to be obtained.

As for it being there to cater to men, probably in most cases. But if that is the case it is in the way Victoria Secret ads are designed to cater to women. The whole fantasy is built around the idea that for a little while men can feel like they meet the impossible standard. This is why the idea of a female power fantasy is so hard to nail down. Women do not have the same kind of expectation put on them so they have no reason to have a power fantasy, at least not one that is parallel to the male power fantasy. Because the male power fantasy is not about power at all, it is a fantasy about being able to meet the expectation of maleness. But feelings are not manly and power is, so the entire thing is wrapped in a "I am so strong!" cover so men don't have to admit to themselves that they are doing this to feel better, because that would be unmanly. The lingerie ads are just more honest and direct about the intention: Wear this and you will feel sexier.

 

[Azaraxzealot]

My girlfriend exercised for 4 hours a day and ate less than 1200 calories a day (in vegetarian food) for 4 months. She gained 20 pounds in fat.

Tell me again how ideal beauty standards are totally achievable with proper diet and moderate exercise? Note that this has been the case with literally every woman I have ever met (a few hundred).

 

[Azaraxzealot]

"Internalized Oppression" seems like something that can easily be used to dismiss what someone says, in a way that's hard to defend against. In particular it would be a way to silence someone in your own minority group that isn't agreeing with you.

You can say that for a lot of legitimate arguments, though.

That something can be abused in no way impacts its validity.

You can, but most arguments can offer more than just that argument for their validity. "It can be hard to prove" isn't an argument to be allowed to half ass it.

Internalized oppression has been documented and proven to be a real thing many, many times over, though (look at black slaveowners in the American south pre-civil war). Therefore, the burden of proof is on those who claim "well THAT'S a convenient argument!"

 

[Azaraxzealot]

"Internalized Oppression" seems like something that can easily be used to dismiss what someone says, in a way that's hard to defend against. In particular it would be a way to silence someone in your own minority group that isn't agreeing with you.

You can say that for a lot of legitimate arguments, though.

That something can be abused in no way impacts its validity.

You can, but most arguments can offer more than just that argument for their validity. "It can be hard to prove" isn't an argument to be allowed to half ass it.

Internalized oppression has been documented and proven to be a real thing many, many times over, though (look at black slaveowners in the American south pre-civil war). Therefore, the burden of proof is on those who claim "well THAT'S a convenient argument!"

It's documented and proven to be a real thing many many times over? I'd contest that level of proof, and ask you to prove it, but it's not really pertinent in any case. It's proven to be a rare thing in extreme circumstances, like Stockholm Syndrome or Ball Lightning. Sure it's real, but most claims of it are ignorant bullshit.

There are more than enough scholarly articles documenting and proving its existence. If you don't see it or think that its as prevalent as it is, then do I also need to prove racism/sexism as institutions exist? Because you really can't deny that internalized oppression has played a huge part in keeping marginalized groups down (such as gamers' internalized oppression that playing and enjoying games is a childish pastime to be made fun of).

 

[Phasmal]

3: Men are just as misrepresented in media as women; yes, even though so many of those characters are "male power fantasies". It seems no one ever stops to ask the follow-up question though; why are they male power fantasies? The answer?

Results. Marcus Fenix, Kratos, Dante, Bayman, Hayabusa, Link (who is actually specifically designed to appeal to women now, or rather A woman, since the designer of Link has been following his wife's guidance for Link's designs since OoT), even in games like Pokemon with the male Champions and Gym Leaders.

Men are designed like that because those kinds of men get results. Men who look and act like they do get the best selection of women, get the most opportunities with women and have the most, we'll call it "purchasing power", with women. As men, even nerdy, socially isolated men like myself, we're constantly told by women and media (IE: Blogs, women's health articles, dating sites etc.)
that women are really more into guys like Gordon Freeman for example...but then, and I'm going to borrow a phrase here...our "lived experience" is that the Gordon Freemans of the world get to go home alone or get to take home the leftovers, while the Dantes, Links, Marcus Fenixes of get to take home the best of the best and the worthwhile ones.

Um, you know this basically says `I know women say they're not attracted to the Marcus Fenix types but I don't believe them`, right?
Which comes off as a bit weird and patronising.
Marcus Fenix is designed to be someone men want to be. I seriously doubt women's attraction was even a factor in his design.

Also the bolded is the grossest thing I've read in some time.
Do you consider most women in the world to be `leftovers`? Because I assure you most men in the world do not look like Marcus Fenix.
I don't know what your `lived experience` is- but most of the guys I know look more like Gordon Freeman than Marcus Fenix and all of them have girlfriends. I think you'll find that most adults either have or have been in a relationship in their lives.

 

[Ariseishirou]

our "lived experience" is that the Gordon Freemans of the world get to go home alone or get to take home the leftovers, while the Dantes, Links, Marcus Fenixes of get to take home the best of the best and the worthwhile ones.

You, uh, call women who don't look like video game babes "leftovers" who are not "worthwhile" and you wonder why women won't go home with you? Really?

PS: I don't know a single woman (out of the hundreds of gamer women I know) who finds Marcus Fenix attractive. He is absolutely, 100% male power fantasy. Dante? Yes, many. Leon? Yep. But that has a lot to do with the fact that they have pretty faces, not that they're built like brick shithouses (see: Link)(see also: pop stars, actors). The fact that you seem to think Marcus Fenix is some kind of female sexual ideal and not an ideal intended for teenaged boys is absolutely bonkers and makes me wonder if you've had a female friend in your entire life.

 

[wAriot]

Modern society is incredibly superficial, and even those in the side of "social justice" (and I'm not talking about the original authors of the pictures) are guilty of it. The only thing that matters is whether you are fat or thin, whether you are black, white, yellow, purple or green, whether you have a penis or a vagina. We are only going to judge you by these things, and anything else doesn't matter!
Anyway, as others have said before, I'd like to see any definitive proof that these "role models" actually affect the eating habits (or any other habits, really) of people. I've been playing videogames for almost two decades, and I still don't want to look like any of the characters I've played. Anecdotal, I know, but again, I have never met anyone else who did.

Marcus Fenix is designed to be someone men want to be. I seriously doubt women's attraction was even a factor in his design.

I only know a couple of dudebros who want to look like Fenix, much less *be* him. The whole "murderous aliens killing everyone on the planet" usually puts them off.
I personally find Dante much more attractive, and his personality is miles better than Fenix's. Speaking for myself here, but if I had to choose someone to be, it'd probably be him.

 

[Phasmal]

Marcus Fenix is designed to be someone men want to be. I seriously doubt women's attraction was even a factor in his design.

I only know a couple of dudebros who want to look like Fenix, much less *be* him. The whole "murderous aliens killing everyone on the planet" usually puts them off.
I personally find Dante much more attractive, and his personality is miles better than Fenix's. Speaking for myself here, but if I had to choose someone to be, it'd probably be him.

I meant they're meant to want to be him in the context of the game, not generally. No one wants to be Marcus Fenix at the PTA meeting, or Marcus Fenix trapped in traffic. In the context of the game we're given, Marcus Fenix is the person we're supposed to relate with as the super-badass who is gonna sort it all out, if you get me.

Fenix is not attractive at all. Sure, there are probably people attracted to him, but only in the sense that you could anyone and someone in the world will want to bone them. Even if it's a tiny number of people.

Dante is much more attractive, I agree.

 

[Ariseishirou]

PS: I don't know a single woman (out of the hundreds of gamer women I know) who finds Marcus Fenix attractive. He is absolutely, 100% male power fantasy.

To be completely fair, there will be some women who would be attracted to the guy, in the same way that different people like different things - it's just going to be a rare woman who may or may not be more interested in the fact that he's the biggest guy in the room and makes all other men feel slightly uncomfortable. OTOH, she probably has to hide in a cupboard a few times a month until his roid rage passes.

Lol well yeah, and some guys out there are gerontophiles, but that doesn't mean that the next DoA is going to feature an 80-year-old lead character as the "female ideal" just become some small handful of men in the world might get off to that ;p Marcus Fenix is absolutely not the kind of thing the overwhelming majority of women are into, and it breaks any suspension of disbelief I might have that the OP has an iota of what he talking about when he gives Marcus Fenix as an example of a widely-held sex symbol for women.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

to be fair, while we might complain women (and men) are all peak physical fitness in videogames, most of them are doing enormously physically intensive lifestyles so... they kinda have to be. Range of body types, sure, but you probably want more Rhonda Roussey than Rosie O'Donnell just for gameplay's sake.

Plus, can we kinda put the power fantasy thing to rest? Every game is a power fantasy. I mean, Lara Croft isn't just there to be eye-candy, she's badass, she's guns akimbo, tiger fighting- with the exception of DoA Volleyball, games with playable female characters generally use it as a power fantasy in the whole superhero smashing enemies sense. It might be fucky that the power fantasy involves being crazy hot with giant boobs, but since we also have Marcus Fenix I think it's an even split.

I mean... I can't speak for everyone, but I assumed the shirtless men are there to appeal to the women in the audience.