Interview: How to Appeal to Girls Without Pissing Off the Guys

[Tharwen]

Have I seen this article before or is this just deja vu again?

 

[Cake-Pie]

Why oh why do so many people assume guys don't want intricate stories and complex decision trees?

Why oh why do so many people assume that women do?

Sexism, friend. Rubs both ways ):

I was okay with this article, but the headline was not helpful to the content. I expected to read something more about how devs attempt to attract women. It was a good piece about Jennifer Canada--and a good read. I enjoy learning more about people in games, and their backgrounds and accomplishments (and good job not making it sound like advertising!).

It's a major flaw when anyone singles out a gender and puts the focus on getting that gender. I don't think you'd have many women hitting up mods on a non-mod-related site. But conversely you'd probably get very few men on non-mod-related sites. With the point about "no love from women" the problem is probably less about women lacking interest and more about sites for women gamers NOT being about game mods. Mod communities are small and very dedicated.

 

[Andy_Panthro]

I'd just like to add to voices stating the obvious...

Gamers are a very mixed bunch.

This is obvious by the sheer volume of various niche titles that hit the shelves every year. For every Shooter X, there's an RTS, adventure game or RPG. Each type (and sub-type!) of game offers different challenges and a different play style. These differences appeal to different people, and I'm certainly someone who prefers slower-paced and story driven games rather than all action.

 

[Mr. Mike]

Definitely an interesting read. I'd love for more stories in games to be like the one explained in this article. I think girls like it because it isn't so macho "let's kill everything in the room", and the guys liked it because it's a pleasant change from the macho "let's kill everything in the room".

I s'pose, however, that even if you did cater more towards a girl-gamer's tastes, yo wouldn't necessarily get any increase in sales because hardcore girls gamers that buy these games don't mind the macho violence in most AAA games.

 

[MasterSplinter]

So she tried to make a game tailored for women, lots of men played and enjoyed it.
Conclusion men and women are similar.

I can't stop seeing:
1- Theory
2- Experimentation
3- Results contradict theory

Experimentation needs no review, the test subject is the problem.

Of course if I wrote +500 pages of anything coherent I would want some results for my work.

But the examples mentioned for appealing factors for women are kind of... well, they don't seem all that special, I know it's kinda hard for me to REALLY know being that I have the dual variety of chromosomes flavors.

Most of any interesting or worthwhile stories have atypical characters in the leading roles. Idealistic perfect characters are tougher to like because we envy them, or are angry at them (or at us) because we know we are not as good as them, or deem them not realistic.

Complex moral choices are something much people are asking for, being the paths offered to us often cartoon-like ridiculous (see bioshock).

And every RPG geek gets an instant hardon for a well crafted background.

I don't see why these are examples of female likes, but I guess that's the hole point of the article huh...

 

[StriderShinryu]

I'm surprised so many posters so far have said, essentially, "well, duh" as it sort of misses the point of the article. We, as gamers, know what appeals to us and it's pretty clear that quality games with quality characteristics appeal to everyone. Canada's studies only reinforce this. The question raised by the article, however, is more along the lines of why are we the only ones who seem to know this.

One would think that as the known gaming audience becomes more and more diverse game developers would clue in to who likes or doesn't like their games and why. What still tends to happen though is that as soon as someone asks "How can we make our game appeal to female gamers" someone else answers "Easy, make the box pink and put dress-up unicorns in it!"

 

[BlindMessiah94]

Whoa. Her last name is Canada?

Sorry, that's the only thing that I really found noteworthy.

You and me both. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a pen name.

 

[Uilleand]

"Perhaps the greatest evidence of all for Canada's thesis that AAA games can appeal to both genders by using these tenets, was that so many of today's best-selling and most renowned games use them. Games like Uncharted 2 and Dragon Age already offer a detailed backstory, atypical female characters, in-game relationships, moral complexity, non-violent action, flexibility of choices, and a meaningful victory."

This. A lot.

 

[Eleima]

This is the type of article that really annoys me. Perhaps its title should've been "How to Appeal to Girls Without Pissing *Them* Off"... Seriously, how difficult is it to understand that gamer girls aren't all that different from their male counterparts. I suspect that we all look for and enjoy pretty much the same things in games: fun factor, storyline, gameplay, roleplaying...

What still tends to happen though is that as soon as someone asks "How can we make our game appeal to female gamers" someone else answers "Easy, make the box pink and put dress-up unicorns in it!"

That's funny, because that sort of packaging would probably send me running for the door... *chuckles*

I know how to appeal to women, make a game where a fat and unattractive chick subtly sabotages the lives of other chicks who might be thinner, prettier, or luckier than she is. I'm not sure guys would play but women would flock to it.

Or not. (I know I wouldn't buy it)

 

[wildpeaks]

Have I seen this article before or is this just deja vu again?

There was a similar one not too long ago, also about Ms. Canada.

(either that, either you're a medium, in such case please give the winning numbers of tomorrow's lotto )

 

[afaceforradio]

I'm not sure what to make of the article... but I think that in this day and age, the less pointed out about girl gamers being girl gamers, so to speak (in the sense of 'oh girls only usually play Farmville' and how shocking it is when they buy a 360 and not a Wii etc) is as old and tired as the 'gender equality' argument.

I know the stats are smaller, but there are also less women than men in the armed forces. Doesn't make it any more fantastic or stunning when a woman joins the army. It just is.

I hate 'girly' or 'casual' games. Some of my favourite games have either zombies, monsters, guns, swords, assassins or stuff like that. Girly games make me barf.

 

[VondeVon]

Over the course of that time, Canada wrote and designed a story that utilized the specific strategies of how to write with the female audience in mind: detailed backstory, atypical female characters, in-game relationships, moral complexity, non-violent action, flexibility of choices, and a meaningful victory.

...I'm a girl and that doesn't sound remotely interesting to me. I enjoyed the property ownership and guild status from Oblivion the most. What I would enjoy most in a mod is the ability to own an entire town and work to make it more successful and wealthy - say by killing and looting nearby monsters or bringing rare items, scrolls or plants back to improve local medicine or trades above other towns.. Status, possessions and power... and the tangible result of that power.

I find it odd how she went from enjoying House-Building in the Sims (a tactic I also employ. My Sims' hopes and dreams can take a hike) to talking about detailed backgrounds and relationships and emotional choices.

Well, ok, I do like the choices thing. But then, anyone male or female would enjoy the opportunity to feel like what they do actually has an impact on the game result beyond success or failure.

These thoughts were echoed by females in Canada's survey, but perhaps because I am male myself, I took special interest in the fact that the very aspects of gaming that were geared towards women, actually were things that appealed to males as well. Perhaps the greatest evidence of all for Canada's thesis that AAA games can appeal to both genders by using these tenets, was that so many of today's best-selling and most renowned games use them. Games like Uncharted 2 and Dragon Age already offer a detailed backstory, atypical female characters, in-game relationships, moral complexity, non-violent action, flexibility of choices, and a meaningful victory.

That, more than anything, proves Jennifer Canada's thesis.

Proof? I found the whole thing to be thoroughly underwhelming. She said herself that she had a great deal of difficulty even garnering female testers which - in and of itself - may indicate that the concept alone didn't appeal to female gamers. Especially when it was "largely ignored" on the women gamer website.

I think a theory intended to be tested by females cannot be proven through the result of mostly male subjects. All THAT proves is that her theory of what appeals to females seems to appeals to males instead, with the possibility of 'also'.

 

[UtopiaV1]

Interesting article. The 2 out of 100 ratio was a bit suprising though i thought it would be a bit more than that. Also the title of the article sounds like a relationship advice thread

I was surprised too, I didnt know it was that...small? I suppose dont know as much as I thought lol.

Although, it does sound intresting...despite it sounding, as mentioned above, how to hold a stable realationship

I'm doing computer games programming at university (nearly at the end of my third and final year, woo-hoo) and, as it stands, in a class of about 50 guys, there -were- two girls, but both went off to do a years work placement, so now it is ALL MEN. People can reel off as many "statistics" as they want, but the simple fact is - Computer games are boys territory, and while i wish that were not the case, it's how everyone (even girl gamers) perceive it.

I hate 'girly' or 'casual' games. Some of my favourite games have either zombies, monsters, guns, swords, assassins or stuff like that. Girly games make me barf.

Ironically, I like most "girly" games (Barbie, farmville, etc excluded of course). I raked up countless hours on the Sims (all 3), and i LOVE point'n'click adventure games (more unisex really, but still). I really think this divide is marketing-generated, and that no difference actually exists between different sexes of gamers.

Publishers always go after a certain demographic, and if the demographic they want to go after is girls, then they will (in their infinite stupidity) make the product pink and pretty. Which is sexist & terrible business practice, but what else do you expect from a profession entirely dominated by men? They need a womans touch for a womans game, which they cannot get because there are so few women in the industry. There are so few women in the industry because it's seen as a boys club, because of all the games marketed only to boys, or the terrible choices in 'girl' games. It's a nasty cycle.

They'll never learn though, because if you boycott obiously 'girly' games, they'll say "girl gamers are in decline, let's stop marketing to them". If you buy their games to prove you're still here, they'll produce more and more dull, pink, vapid crap that they think you like! Sometimes this industry really pisses me off. (sorry for the rant)

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

So, all this means what? That we've discovered that games have a broader appeal when they're not aimed exclusively at fulfilling adolescent male power fantasies?

Well bugger me with a broken broom, I'd have never thought of that.

 

[GonzoGamer]

My wife likes Oblivion(not as much as Fallout 3), and is one of the only people actually able to make some really hot characters with the creator. If I ever pick up the PC version I'll have to download this mod and see what she thinks.

The few gaming women I know like the more cerebral games as opposed to the fast twitch pure action games. Mind you this isn't 100%: my wife is also a huge gta (though she didn't get into gta4 too much, she really liked Chinatown Wars and the last gen offerings) fan.

 

[Caiti Voltaire]

Isn't the same chick who tried to tell us we clearly didn't have ovaries if we enjoyed the cathartic potential of action games?

People who try to pigeon hole the psychology of the matter into gender roles really is trying to understand a heart condition looking at a single ventricle, if you can forgive the rather dorky analogy. Only looking at all the variables - of which only one is gender - can we really come to a deeper understanding.

 

[Dhatz]

fact is as more and more creators move in, the space is littered with literally trash. just like any other form of what used to be art at some point, just like movies, music, comics, autos (and oh, art itself). so there are hardly any games that try to be good enough for adult person no matter the sex.