Iran Sends Monkey to Space

Verlander

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It's funny, but I've never seen the Middle East invade Europe/USA, at least, not in the last few hundred years. Nor have I seen them nuke anyone. Actually, unless my history is madly off only one country has used nuclear weapons offensively against other humans...

BUT this is the internet, therefore it's all religions fault. All of everything is.
 

Lucky Godzilla

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Verlander said:
It's funny, but I've never seen the Middle East invade Europe/USA, at least, not in the last few hundred years. Nor have I seen them nuke anyone. Actually, unless my history is madly off only one country has used nuclear weapons offensively against other humans...

BUT this is the internet, therefore it's all religions fault. All of everything is.
To be fair Russia never invaded the U.S, nor have they detonated a nuke offensive manner.
Didn't exactly make them any less of a threat during the Cold War.
 

Ukomba

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The Plunk said:
thiosk said:
The Plunk said:
Which raises the question as to why we let a country that was recently led by a man who said that God told him to invade Iraq have nukes.
To be fair, not even Bush nuked anybody.
As Verlander said, only one country has ever nuked another country.

Ukomba said:
The Plunk said:
Which raises the question as to why we let a country that was recently led by a man who said that God told him to invade Iraq have nukes.
That never happened.
Oh, right. Wait a minute - what's this?! http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa
First, there was never mention of nukes. The WMD's in question were Chemical weapons. So ya, that never happened.

Second, what some Palestinian claims the president said isn't proof of anything. It's like trusting those people who swear they have proof Obama was born in Kenya. Anyways, even if true, that isn't why the invasion of Iraq happened, unless god talked to all the congress as well, since they're the ones who voted on it. Unlike certain current military actions, the invasion of Iraq wasn't a unilateral derision by the president. Nice try though.
 

TheBelgianGuy

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Lucky Godzilla said:
Israel and Saudi Arabia are staunch U.S allies.
And when the media reports on those totalitarian Iranian nasty people, they somehow forget to mention the people in our loyal ally Saudi-Arabia don't even get to vote for their absolute dictatorial monarchy, with their rather strict Shariah-like interpretation of the Quran.

Lucky Godzilla said:
Of course, should the Iranians develop a nuke, they would then become the de-facto power in the Middle East.
Israel has nukes.


Lucky Godzilla said:
and the fact that Iran has, on numerous occasions, called for Israel to be wiped off the map.
If by numerous occasions, you mean the one time Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini in 2005, who said "the regime occupying Jerusalem should be erased from the pages of time", which was then constantly referred to as "We gonna kill all Jews!", but was meant by Khomeini as "Just as with the Soviet Union trying to suppress Muslims, Israel will fail as well".

albino boo said:
Greg Tito said:
Of course, that has the United States and its allies feeling a bit cautious. I get the nervousness, but part of me wonders why it was OK for one nation to have nukes and a space program - i.e. the U.S. - and totally unacceptable for another.
The US government is not in the habit of shooting people in the street for protesting about ballot rigging, nor does it ban women from attending sporting events, or sentence people to having acid thrown in their face. There are many things that can be questioned about the US but there is no moral equivalence between Iran and the US governments.
This reminds me of that one Shah guy. You know, the totalitarian dictator the US put in power in Iran. Must be a unique example though--- oh wait,... King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, Sultan Qaboos bin Said Al-Said of Oman, "President" Batista in Cuba, "Papa Doc" Duvalier and his son in Haiti,...
Wait, but some of those US-backed dictators had death-squads and worse! Oh right- it's okay to put people in power in several countries who murder people, abuse women, have harsh laws, etc... Yes, I see, the US government is objectively 100% benign and saintly.

Zombie_Moogle said:
Just wait 'til another country starts building drones
Israel and France build their own military drones.
 

Therumancer

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The differance is of course that not all societies and civilizations are created equal. Iran has to work out "little" issues like a seperation of church and state and women's sufferage before allowing to have technology of this sort should even be considered. Iran does not generally have a reputation for playing well with others, and like it or not whether there are any immediate plans to nuke Isreal or not it's very attitude about the fundemental existance of a Jewish state says a lot about their maturity as a civilization.

In "Star Trek" it's important to understand that there were apocolyptic wars on earth that nearly decimated humanity, a period which lead to a facist regime that made the nazis look like a troupe of girl scouts taking over the world, with what amounted to a "join is, live our way, or die" followed by mass murder and genocide. This facist regime eventually reformed once it had everyone in line into what became the earth goverment that started The Federation. A case of doing really bad things so you don't have to do them anymore/the ends justify the means at it's finest. A point made by Q in "Encounter At Farpoint" (the first episodes of TNG) where he showed the beginnings of The Federation and how when you get right down to it the morality is hypocritical as the very foundation of their society only occured through the usage of exactly the kind of fascist, mass-murdering, military strong arm tactics that Star Fleet runs around preaching against. This in of itself was in referance to some of Roddenberry's extended writings where I believe he also explained was that the big differance between the TOS "Mirror Universe" and the regular universe was whether Earth changed policies over a period of time or not. The "Terran Empire" fundementally being those guys you saw in "Encounter At Farpoint" in Q's court scene, this is also why they had an eagle emblem very similar to the one used by "The Terran Empire" apparently. I've read some stuff about it... and the point is that Star Trek pretty much makes a bad parallel to real world politics because when you get technical the bottom line is that everyone who is inconveinent to it's somewhat western/liberal/socialist utopian view had been either wiped out due to natural disaster, genetic themed warfare, or by the facist regime that pretty much conquered everyone and forced a single global super culture. Even in current Star Trek, there would be an obligation to disarm a culture like Iraq having technology gained from other, more advanced and enlightened people, that they are not progressively ready for. The fact that The Western World could develop technology and then have barbaric neighbors that have not even established the fundementals of an enlightened civilization (like seperation of church and state, sexual equality, etc...) and the chaos that can ensue is exactly why Star Trek has the "Prime Directive" and seeks to keep things compartmentalized so the planetary equivilent of Iran or Iraq can never obtain things like warp drive or photon torpedos and go on a space jihad, and also takes a fairly aggressive policing stance against cultures that turn out that way and develop the tech on their own (ie keeping them contained, or otherwise refusing to intervene unless they reform while another power like The Klingons come wandering by and enslave them).


All the nerd rambling aside, I've been of the opinion that we should pretty much invade Iran for a while. Unlike this other insanity in Afghanistan and Iraq though, we shouldn't go in there with some big plan of winning the peace and imposing a progressive democracy. We've already learned twice that you can't teach a monkey philsophy, it's a creature that's fundementally unsuited for it, perhaps in thousands of years of evolution it will wind up being able to, but that's not the case right now. Islamic cultures are the societal equivilent of that, you can try and teach them how to be progressive, enlightened civilizations, but at the end of the day if they aren't evolved enough to do it, they aren't evolved enough to do it. The new Iraqi and Afghani constitutions that specified the nations as "Islamic States" and the failure to acehive true women's equality (to the point of visiting women from other countries still needing to cover them) have shown that no matter what they are shown, they just fundementally aren't equipped as a people to get it. The most we can do is break their cultures to the point where they are harmless to the rest of the world while they hopefuly grow up. If they hate us in the meantime, so what, when they grow up getting over it will be part of it as they will understand what we did what we did. Towards this end I think the Iranian "invasion" should basically be a mission with a clear entrance, goal, and exit strategy... cripple Iraq's infrastructure and technology base, and decimate it's military to the point where followup strikes are possible when and where nessicary to prevent them from rebuilding it until they are ready.

It's not nice, but let me be honest. We have issues with Iran getting the missle range to successfully hit Isreal through it's defenses or worse yet fire reliably at other countries. If Iran develops the abillity to place their own Satellites that means they have the abillity to put missles on those satellites, and it's not like they follow existing treaties (being religiously driven), so any kind of agreement like there was between the US and USSR to not do things like this (or greatly limit it) as part of a cold war stand off is kind of moot. What's more MAD doesn't mean much to a people that believe god will literally protect them from the repercussions of their actions.

Whether or not the intent for these programs is for it to be "used peacefully" or even if it is in the short term, the potential exists. When Iran has the abillity to potentially produce nuclear missles, or worse yet put them on orbiting satellites, we're pretty much all F@cked because we're dealing with what amounts to an inherantly irrational theocratic society that routinely calls holy war, being in possesion of the abillity to wipe out entire cities, while themselves feeling that their divine direction makes this right and protects them from the fallout (perhaps literally).

Sorry... no.... them having this is a bad idea.

We could go back and forth about whether Dubbya acted in good faith or not. Truthfully I think he did, the US had dismantled most of it's intelligence assets and we acted mostly on international Intel, among other things trusting Isreal which had it's own motives in the region a little more than we probably should have. Others disagree with me, but that's fine.

The differance here is that Iran itself is saying "hey, we're developing these things, and look we just fired a monkey into space and recovered it!" whether it's true or not they want us to believe it, and have been working in that direction. Heading in there to wreck their tech base at this point isn't based on any declaration of WMDs by shadowy intelligence types and information analysts, it's due to the people on the receiving end dancing around going "hahaha, we have all this stuff, try and stop us!". If we go in there and it turns out Iran never had this stuff, that isn't exactly going to be our fault, and truthfully they will kind of deserve it for having provoked the attack.

I don't think many people here will agree with me, but that's my thoughts on the subject. I just call it like I see it. If I seem bigoted and judgemental about Iran and it's level of development as a culture, hey, it comes from listening to these guys for decades, and looking at the fundemental nature of their society and it's failings to do even the most basic things like seperate church and state and try and institute serious women's sufferage. Those two things are very basic societal developments that I believe need to be met before one can even entertain the question of a culture being progressive, advanced, or enlighented. If your society currently has barbaric policies and customs (even if it was at one time among the more progressive people thousands of years ago) then I'm going to treat you like a barbarian. Without meeting basic fundemental details like that I don't feel you evenhave the right to try and play tit for tat with other countries that have gotten that far (by saying one aspect or other of a society that has gone that far might be "wrong" or "barbaric" compartively... without the basics nothing you say and do as a people matters to me).
 

Zombie_Moogle

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TheBelgianGuy said:
Zombie_Moogle said:
Just wait 'til another country starts building drones
Israel and France build their own military drones.
Israel is given Carte Blanche by the U.S. to do as they please, for more reason than I feel like getting responses for

& nobody cares about France

(not agreeing; stating facts)
 

Fiz_The_Toaster

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This is the first step towards space exploration by a Middle Eastern country, yeah?

Good for them, I guess, a little weird that's coming from Iran though, not really sure how I feel about that.
 

Lucky Godzilla

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TheBelgianGuy said:
Lucky Godzilla said:
Israel and Saudi Arabia are staunch U.S allies.
And when the media reports on those totalitarian Iranian nasty people, they somehow forget to mention the people in our loyal ally Saudi-Arabia don't even get to vote for their absolute dictatorial monarchy, with their rather strict Shariah-like interpretation of the Quran.
All those statements are true, yet ultimately irrelevant. I was arguing for reasons why the U.S would want to keep nukes away from Iran, not Saudi Arabia's human rights record.

Lucky Godzilla said:
Of course, should the Iranians develop a nuke, they would then become the de-facto power in the Middle East.
Israel has nukes.
Unconfirmed, though unlikely. The real value behind a nuclear weapon is not the raw destructive power, but the deterrence. Basically, any nation that wishes to attack another would think twice should said nation be a nuclear power. Israel, which is surrounded by at best fragile alliances would be all to happy to announce if they were indeed a nuclear power. Surrounding nations may not be so keen to invade if Israel could wipe them out at a push of a button.

Lucky Godzilla said:
and the fact that Iran has, on numerous occasions, called for Israel to be wiped off the map.
If by numerous occasions, you mean the one time Ahmadinejad quoted Khomeini in 2005, who said "the regime occupying Jerusalem should be erased from the pages of time", which was then constantly referred to as "We gonna kill all Jews!", but was meant by Khomeini as "Just as with the Soviet Union trying to suppress Muslims, Israel will fail as well".
Actually Ahmadinejad never made those comments in 2005, the one you are thinking of is
?Some European countries insist on saying that during World War II, Hitler burned millions of Jews and put them in concentration camps. Any historian, commentator or scientist who doubts that is taken to prison or gets condemned. Although we don't accept this claim [of the holocaust], if we suppose it is true... If the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe ? like in Germany, Austria or other countries ? to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it."

Listen, you claim that there was just one single quote that called for Israel's destruction. Simply put, you are wrong. I'm not going to waste my time looking up the myriad of these quotes, but nothings holding you back.

albino boo said:
Greg Tito said:
Of course, that has the United States and its allies feeling a bit cautious. I get the nervousness, but part of me wonders why it was OK for one nation to have nukes and a space program - i.e. the U.S. - and totally unacceptable for another.
The US government is not in the habit of shooting people in the street for protesting about ballot rigging, nor does it ban women from attending sporting events, or sentence people to having acid thrown in their face. There are many things that can be questioned about the US but there is no moral equivalence between Iran and the US governments.
This reminds me of that one Shah guy. You know, the totalitarian dictator the US put in power in Iran. Must be a unique example though--- oh wait,... King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, Sultan Qaboos bin Said Al-Said of Oman, "President" Batista in Cuba, "Papa Doc" Duvalier and his son in Haiti,...
Wait, but some of those US-backed dictators had death-squads and worse! Oh right- it's okay to put people in power in several countries who murder people, abuse women, have harsh laws, etc... Yes, I see, the US government is objectively 100% benign and saintly.
Again, horrible but irrelevant. I'm not denying any of this, but when talking about Iran's efforts to obtain a nuke, these arguments are, once again irrelevant.

Zombie_Moogle said:
Just wait 'til another country starts building drones
Israel and France build their own military drones.[/quote]
 

Imp_Emissary

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Greg Tito said:
Points taken. To be clear, I was speaking more from a "Gee, wouldn't the world be great if it was more like Star Trek?" perspective than offering a real assessment of the diplomatic situation in the Middle East.
But Greg, we don't have any aliens yet. :(
The world can't work like Star Trek until we find aliens.


I know saying that is racist, but it's ok because they aren't real.......Right?
 

Verlander

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Lucky Godzilla said:
Verlander said:
It's funny, but I've never seen the Middle East invade Europe/USA, at least, not in the last few hundred years. Nor have I seen them nuke anyone. Actually, unless my history is madly off only one country has used nuclear weapons offensively against other humans...

BUT this is the internet, therefore it's all religions fault. All of everything is.
To be fair Russia never invaded the U.S, nor have they detonated a nuke offensive manner.
Didn't exactly make them any less of a threat during the Cold War.
Well, yeah, it kinda did. I think it's safe to argue that had they invaded the US, or attacked a nation with nuclear weapons, they'd have been considered a much bigger threat than the were. Also worth pointing out that the USSR were a political enemy - the US didn't consider the UK a threat, despite also being an active nuclear power. Such as in this instance, where Iran and North Korea are considered dangerous threats by the USA, despite doing nothing more than what several other countries already have done.
 

Draconalis

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Greg Tito said:
Welcome to USA circa 1948

Greg Tito said:
Today, Iran announced on its state television network that it successfully launched a monkey into outer space as part of its burgeoning space program.
Totally read that as "bludgeoning"

Floppertje said:
because 'other countries' follow a different religion, and that's scary.
To be fair... it's not all the other religions that are scary... just certain ones that will kill you in the street for some imagined offense.

Imp Emissary said:

I know saying that is racist, but it's ok because they aren't real.......Right?
Heh heh... it's really racist because they are a different race...
 

Floppertje

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Draconalis said:
Floppertje said:
because 'other countries' follow a different religion, and that's scary.
To be fair... it's not all the other religions that are scary... just certain ones that will kill you in the street for some imagined offense.
like... say... christianity?
but you're right. you seldom hear about buddhist extremists killing people.
 

Draconalis

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Floppertje said:
like... say... christianity?
but you're right. you seldom hear about buddhist extremists killing people.
Among them others... yes...

I wasn't going to be the one to say it though.
 

rayen020

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Floppertje said:
Draconalis said:
Floppertje said:
because 'other countries' follow a different religion, and that's scary.
To be fair... it's not all the other religions that are scary... just certain ones that will kill you in the street for some imagined offense.
like... say... christianity?
but you're right. you seldom hear about buddhist extremists killing people.
Read up on japanese and chinese history. I have yet to find a religion that doesn't have at least one chapter stained with blood. At least these days buddhist tend to kill themselves in protest, rather than others.

OT; This children, is what we call a powder keg scenario. Something the greater part of the world understands is that Iran having nukes would not be a good thing. Chances are they would use them as a threat to get other nations to fall in line or worse actually use them. The real problem, however, is that Iran doesn't really give a flying flip about the rest of the world and it is not hard to see them selling nuclear weapons to extremists. And extremists WOULD USE THEM.
 

Therumancer

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Floppertje said:
Draconalis said:
Floppertje said:
because 'other countries' follow a different religion, and that's scary.
To be fair... it's not all the other religions that are scary... just certain ones that will kill you in the street for some imagined offense.
like... say... christianity?
but you're right. you seldom hear about buddhist extremists killing people.
The way I see it is this, in connection to my previous, extremely judgemental post.

I don't really care if the people in Iran, or The Middle East practice Islam as a dominant religion in the region or whatever else. The big issue is having a seperation of church and state where religion does not influance the policy or relations of the goverment, at least on paper. For all the failings in nations like the US, UK, etc... where people have brought up the issue of religion influancing leadership it's become a problem and viewed negatively and oftentimes lead to policies and leaders being dismissed or at least fueling strong opposition.

The problem is that in Iran the goverment and church aren't nessicarly seperated with Islamic law influancing and determining the actual laws, national policies, and even elections in who gets to call the shots. You can't even see fundemental things like women's sufferage throughout the nation (even visiting women have to cover themselves to avoid offense) for religious reasons that fuel the entire culture.

A nation should primarily be driven by rational, as opposed to spiritual or religious, behavior, thought, and policy before it should be allowed to wield things like space travel or nuclear power. Otherwise they represent a threat to everyone. As much as people hate the whole "world police" mentality I think disarming nations like Iran and stifling their technological development is a good thing for the entire world. At the end of the day that buck has to stop somewhere and that kind of desician has to be made.

To put things into perspective the US is not going to suddenly go nuclear on someone for religious offense. Our entire goverment and policy structure is based around a rational way of viewing and dealing with the world. Even if harcore christianity (the dominant religion) calls something anathema, unclean, or takes offense, that does not drive US action, and someone taking action for those reasons (if they were to get that much power) would generally be stopped. Seperation o Church and State being one of our key policies as it is for most of the civilized first world. I am not so sure about this when it comes to a nation like Iran which makes a big deal out of saying that a Jewish state has no fundemental right to exist, no rationality behind it, pure religious hatred, that goes beyond any conflict in palestine or anywhere
else.

In this case how likely you are to be killed in the street for religious reasons is kind of irrelevent because we're dealing with things on a national stage. When your dealing with nukes and space programs and such it's not about some tourist getting decapitated on video as part of a religious statement, the stakes are much, much larger. As a result it's difficult to not be judgemental of entire societies when you look at them having this kind of power.

I have no problem with an Arabic space program, or nations in The Middle East launching their own people into space, placing satellites, or even having nuclear reactors as a fundemental gesture. Heck I might not even care about the nuclear bomb either, lots of those around nowadays. I do on the other hand have a problem with an ISLAMIC space program and nuclear space program, when the socieities are being driven largely by religious belief, policy and furor. If the Arabs involved just happen to be Islamic wouldn't even be a big deal, as long as the policies and goverments driving things were not dictated by religion.

I hope I'm articulating this correctly, even if many people here doubtlessly won't agree with me.

Ideally it would be nice to say all people and societies are fundementally the same and equal, and that everyone should have a right to the highest levels of technology and standards of living, but sadly it isn't an ideal world.

That said it's a moot point, I expect Obama to do absolutly nothing about this except maybe flap his gums some more. We don't have a leader who is capable of taking any kind of decisive, offensive military action. By the time he's out of office it might very well be a moot point since we will have delayed so long it won't be practical to just go in there and attack the infrstructure and technology base.
 

RicoADF

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JoJo said:
Of course, that has the United States and its allies feeling a bit cautious. I get the nervousness, but part of me wonders why it was OK for one nation to have nukes and a space program - i.e. the U.S. - and totally unacceptable for another. Is it terrible for the world to have access to all technology?
It's somewhat hypocritical but ultimately justified considering the periodic saber rattling that emanates from Iran towards the U.S. and Israel. The American government is no angel but at-least we can trust them not to preemptively nuke another country because they contravene a particular interpretation of a millennia old religious document.
And Iran's sabre rattling is justified since the US invades whoever they want. Sure they don't nuke places, instead they invade them and level them with 500lb bombs instead.

Not to mention the amount of times the US has illegally flown into Iran airspace to try and bait them into giving the US an excuse to attack, bit no that's ok because 'Merica right?

Or in plain English:
"if its good enough for one country to have nukes and a space program who has a history if invading nations, then its good enough for another who feels threaterned to have it too."

I just hope Australia has the brains to stay the hell out of it.
 

1337mokro

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"Humanity cannot be truly free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

To put it quite simply Iran in the 1970's would have had my full support. Iran in 2013? No. Just no. They are religious nutjobs. They went from a prospering industrial nation to xenophobic Islamists, now did the US help that along by funding a horrible Iran-Irak war? Of course.

Quite frankly no nation where there is no secular government should be in the possession of any nukes, I'm looking at you Israel. You are worse than Iran, not even letting the UN inspect those nukes you have. The US is also borderline on this matter with enough religious insanity to fill an ocean with. Bushy believing he was on some kind of fucking sacred crusade when invading Irak or whatever. They had a presidential candidate that believes his god lives on a fucking planet in outer space and commands him to wear magic underwear AT ALL TIMES! Dear god the world is doomed!

To the people saying Buddhists don't kill. Read up Tibet and the Dalai Lama which will reveal to you a totalitarian dictatorship based around monks with impoverished peasants forming most of the population. Then look into a few of the Muslim Genocides committed by Buddhists mostly around Burma and the likes. After all can't have a competing religion left over from an old caliphate now can you?

Where religion goes, any religion, pain, misery, sexism, discrimination and death soon follow.
 

Lucky Godzilla

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Verlander said:
Lucky Godzilla said:
Verlander said:
It's funny, but I've never seen the Middle East invade Europe/USA, at least, not in the last few hundred years. Nor have I seen them nuke anyone. Actually, unless my history is madly off only one country has used nuclear weapons offensively against other humans...

BUT this is the internet, therefore it's all religions fault. All of everything is.
To be fair Russia never invaded the U.S, nor have they detonated a nuke offensive manner.
Didn't exactly make them any less of a threat during the Cold War.
Well, yeah, it kinda did. I think it's safe to argue that had they invaded the US, or attacked a nation with nuclear weapons, they'd have been considered a much bigger threat than the were. Also worth pointing out that the USSR were a political enemy - the US didn't consider the UK a threat, despite also being an active nuclear power. Such as in this instance, where Iran and North Korea are considered dangerous threats by the USA, despite doing nothing more than what several other countries already have done.
Uh, you do realize the specter of Soviet invasion kick started the single largest military spending spree in recorded history? I mean, have you studied anything about the Cold War? does the term containment policy ring a bell?
 

emeraldrafael

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Greg Tito said:
... I get the nervousness, but part of me wonders why it was OK for one nation to have nukes and a space program - i.e. the U.S. - and totally unacceptable for another. Is it terrible for the world to have access to all technology? Isn't that what the Internet and globalization and the spread of ideas is all about? Why can't we act more like we're in Star Trek?...
I think the matter is slightly different when at best your country is described as "unstable." As bad as the US is, they dont just launch random missiles with that kind of power at anyone they choose. whih I have no doubt Iran would do given the chance, cause who do they have to fear? the leader wouldnt care for shit if he got counter attacked as long as his target is destroyed and then could just turn it around.

plus it would set a somewhat dangerous precedent that could lead to N. Korea getting them and then all shits going all hell.