Irish Slavery as abused in Social Justice Discourse.

[snekadid]

I never understood why people disregarded Irish slavery to such a degree. The reason African slavery came about was because the Irish slaves kept dying in massive numbers while developing the south. Ireland, if you've looked at a map, is a northern country while the south range gets close to the equator. Back in that day, that kind of climate change along side the intense labor that was forced upon these people was a death sentence.

What people fail to regard about the time, Africans only became "sub-humans" in cultural eyes when they became necessary as labor and the same was done to the Irish before them. The British empire was pretty evil by modern standards.

 

[LetalisK]

Saying that we Americans should all just "be American" is as insulting as the suggestion that everyone from the UK should identify as UK citizens. "Just ditch the English/Northern Irish/Scottish/Welsh nonsense and come together, ffs. Aren't you all the UK?"

Well, to be fair, he is English and cultural self-loathing is a favorite past time among that group. That would explain his confusion about why anyone would want to celebrate their heritage.

 

[jackknife402]

Not to mention that every race in existence in europe was enslaved at one point by the romans. Except perhaps those in eastern asia, who enslaved their own people. Then those of the americas enslaved eachother. Therefore not a single race out there hasn't been enslaved. So citing slavery as to the reason people should be kinder or gentler to one aspect of society compared to others is a moot point. I've only ever looked upon those around me by their personal choices. Skin color is merely a tool to help describe a person you're talking about and not a basis on how to treat them. All I'd like to see is people stop holding onto the past with expectations that the future pay them for their ancestors turmoil. If that can't be accepted then I waiting for my resitution payments from Italy, fellow germans, and norsemen.

 

[Colour Scientist]

I'm English and my girlfriend is Irish (actual Irish, not the American 'my great great grandfather jumped off a boat 100 years ago Irish')

With the 100 year anniversary of the uprising getting closer, and talks that the Queen wishes to attend as a sign of respect, id like to think we can finally forgive and forget what was a fucking disgusting part of history.

I'd like to think me boning an Irish lass is me doing my part XD

Ireland (both Republic and Northern) have enough problems without needing to worry about what the Queen does. EDIT: I just mentioned this to my girlfriend (RoI lass) and she just laughed and said "To gloat?"

Belfast still has a lot of Catholic/Protestant problems and the Republic is a fucking mess right now.

"To gloat" is kind of a stupid comment.

I'm not sure if it would be a clever idea and it's likely not going to happen but it would be a nice historical precedent to set. When has a monarch ever travelled to commemorate what's heralded as the beginning of the independence movement in a former dominion? Like I said, it's not going to happen because the commemoration is going to be a messy event anyway, but it would have been a nice symbolic gesture.

To say it's a fucking mess right now is a bit of an exagerration, at least, we're no more a fucking mess than usual.

 

[Lieju]

Yeah, the only time I see it being brought up is to dismiss the effects of black slavery in the US.
And while ignoring history is wrong, yelling 'other people had problems too' is hardly an argument.

History matters because it's how we arrived to where we are now.
Black people didn't magically become as rich and as equal in everyone's eyes as the ruling class when black slavery was ended. The racism didn't disappear anywhere, they weren't integrated to the rest of the population the same way the Irish were, they were still segregated.

The effects of the black slavery in the US is something that's effects are still felt.

 

[RoonMian]

I'm English and my girlfriend is Irish (actual Irish, not the American 'my great great grandfather jumped off a boat 100 years ago Irish')

With the 100 year anniversary of the uprising getting closer, and talks that the Queen wishes to attend as a sign of respect, id like to think we can finally forgive and forget what was a fucking disgusting part of history.

I'd like to think me boning an Irish lass is me doing my part XD

Ireland (both Republic and Northern) have enough problems without needing to worry about what the Queen does. EDIT: I just mentioned this to my girlfriend (RoI lass) and she just laughed and said "To gloat?"

Belfast still has a lot of Catholic/Protestant problems and the Republic is a fucking mess right now.

"To gloat" is kind of a stupid comment.

I'm not sure if it would be a clever idea and it's likely not going to happen but it would be a nice historical precedent to set. When has a monarch ever travelled to commemorate what's heralded as the beginning of the independence movement in a former dominion? Like I said, it's not going to happen because the commemoration is going to be a messy event anyway, but it would have been a nice symbolic gesture.

To say it's a fucking mess right now is a bit of an exagerration, at least, we're no more a fucking mess than usual.

While not exactly a monarch Willy Brandt, at the time chancellor of Germany, dropped to his knees at the memorial of the uprising in the Warsaw Ghetto.

 

[Stu35]

I'm English and my girlfriend is Irish (actual Irish, not the American 'my great great grandfather jumped off a boat 100 years ago Irish')

Out of interest, is "actual Irish" Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland Irish?

Northern Irish people are legally able to identify as Irish or British or Both as they choose.

Ultimately, the whole province is a financial drain that the Republic don't want, and I'd wager their government is dreading the day that the Republicans finally out-breed the unionists to the point that they vote themselves into being fully Irish.

That said, I've lived here for 3 years now and I fucking love Northern Ireland.

But that doesn't really answer your question, which I'm not entitled to answer anyway. Mostly I just needed a jump off point to add my 2p. Sorry.

Saying that we Americans should all just "be American" is as insulting as the suggestion that everyone from the UK should identify as UK citizens. "Just ditch the English/Northern Irish/Scottish/Welsh nonsense and come together, ffs. Aren't you all the UK?"

Oh...bit of an apples and oranges comparison there, one that is likely to see people reaching for the popcorn.

Agreed. I'd love to see the day when California refuses to contribute to a US olympic team because it might undermine their independent status, or when Minnesota has to put up with decades of terrorist violence because half of them want to be Canadian(bonus points if said terrorists get fucktons of aid from Europeans who don't understand what's happening but feel very strongly about Minnesotas Canadian population).

 

[Colour Scientist]

I'm English and my girlfriend is Irish (actual Irish, not the American 'my great great grandfather jumped off a boat 100 years ago Irish')

Out of interest, is "actual Irish" Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland Irish?

Northern Irish people are legally able to identify as Irish or British or Both as they choose.

Ultimately, the whole province is a financial drain that the Republic don't want, and I'd wager their government is dreading the day that the Republicans finally out-breed the unionists to the point that they vote themselves into being fully Irish.

That said, I've lived here for 3 years now and I fucking love Northern Ireland.

But that doesn't really answer your question, which I'm not entitled to answer anyway. Mostly I just needed a jump off point to add my 2p. Sorry.

I think, if it were feasible, that the North would go independent before it would join the Republic. You're right though, the Republic wouldn't be able to afford to prop up the North, our government can barely pay for one bloated public service, let alone two. XD

 

[Josh123914]

I'm English and my girlfriend is Irish (actual Irish, not the American 'my great great grandfather jumped off a boat 100 years ago Irish')

Out of interest, is "actual Irish" Republic of Ireland, or Northern Ireland Irish?

Northern Irish people are legally able to identify as Irish or British or Both as they choose.

Ultimately, the whole province is a financial drain that the Republic don't want, and I'd wager their government is dreading the day that the Republicans finally out-breed the unionists to the point that they vote themselves into being fully Irish.

That said, I've lived here for 3 years now and I fucking love Northern Ireland.

But that doesn't really answer your question, which I'm not entitled to answer anyway. Mostly I just needed a jump off point to add my 2p. Sorry.

Indeeed we can, hence why I can have 2 country's passports simultaneously!

And Northern Ireland is too entrenched in sectarianism. Your only options politically are the Left wing Nationalists, or Right wing Unionists.
Anything in between just doesn't survive, because then its a rare occasion where the parties that benefit from this dichotomy perform a smear campaign against any newcomers.

Many nationalists (at least in my house) wouldn't vote yes tomorrow if there was a vote for unification.
This is because the South is viewed as very corrupt (i.e. more corrupt than up here), and lacks services like free schools and the NHS that we've become accustomed to.
The idea of a United Ireland is one we'd like to see, but not if it involved paying the Water tax, or losing your house if you've been laid off.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Hmmm... I've never actually heard this story before. But it figures people would abuse it as a means to tell others to shut up...

Somehow reminds me of that whole 'first world problems' thing. Yes, sometimes it's literally about some stupid issue, but when you're talking about someone with severe mental health issues, serious financial problems, marriage breakdown and so on, saying "Well, people in 3rd world countries have it worse" is not really fair.

Why do people do that? "Well, someone else went through the same thing/had it worse, so why are you complaining?"

One doesn't negate the other, so why do people behave as though it does?

"It could be worse." is not a fair thing to say to someone who has difficulties in life.

Um... I think I'm going off on a tangent here.

Anyway, It doesn't really surprise me that there were irish slaves. Slavery has a very long and varied history. Just because we associate it with a single historical situation/period, that happened largely to a single racial group, doesn't change that slaves were a thing through much of human history.
Nor, that a lot of medieval power structures were innately very similar to slavery in principle, if not in the exact details and terminology used...

 

[Popido]

The effects of the black slavery in the US is something that's effects are still felt.

As none 'murican, this is alien to me.

How is slavely STILL having a choke hold on black people? Are they trying to reinstate slavery? Are the old slavers wanted and still out there? What is it out there that counts as "effects are still felt"?

I know the 'murican jail more or less replaced slavery, but thats not solely focused on black people.

OT: What is the difference between modern Irish and modern African-American?

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Here's a much better reason to disregard both arguments: It was half a dozen generations ago. Constructing any form of guilt or obligation out of it is nothing short of ridiculous. And people that bring history up as arguments in todays social debates deserve to be disregarded as much as their arguments.

Amen to this.

An amen to this amen and another quote for additional emphasis.

The effects of the black slavery in the US is something that's effects are still felt.

As none 'murican, this is alien to me.

How is slavely STILL having a choke hold on black people? Are they trying to reinstate slavery? Are the old slavers wanted and still out there? What is it out there that counts as "effects are still felt"?

I know the 'murican jail more or less replaced slavery, but thats not solely focused on black people.

OT: What is the difference between modern Irish and modern African-American?

The only times I've ever seen Irish slavery mentioned are when it's as a rebuttal to certain groups suggesting that whites are never, have never, and will never be enslaved.

 

[wizzy555]

I've never seen it as a shut-up about African slaves "defence". I've seen it used as a counter-example to the "you can't be racist against whites" argument and the tendency for all internet discussions about race to be centred around US racial dynamics.

Also there is the tendency for Americans to make class issues about race. Yes African Americans are disadvantaged because of the history of slavery. In other countries there are groups who are disadvantaged not because of race or because they were ever slaves but the cultural classes they belonged to. As such it sounds odd to us to ground everything in terms of the history of slavery.

 

[J Tyran]

Its funny how Cromwell and how much of a bastard he was is being forgotten by many, he butchered his way across Ireland and enforced a military style dictatorship in England (his power was based on his "new model army"). Some argue that the campaign in Ireland was motivated after the murder of the Protestant settlers but even if thats true that response was beyond disproportionate, while he was certainly a religious zealot with an extremely puritan mindset (he even outlawed Christmas) it seems the campaign was driven as much by expanding a power base as it was religion.

The problem is the issues between Protestants and Catholics go back centuries before Cromwell and England had suffered under the Catholics and the Catholics suffered at the hands of the Protestants, even the Civil War was driven in part by that never ending (still going today) conflict.

The object lesson to be taken from any of it is how much of shit sandwich religion is.

Half a millennium of murder and conflict over how to worship a magical zombie carpenter, absolute foolishness.

 

[Lieju]

The effects of the black slavery in the US is something that's effects are still felt.

As none 'murican, this is alien to me.

How is slavely STILL having a choke hold on black people? Are they trying to reinstate slavery? Are the old slavers wanted and still out there? What is it out there that counts as "effects are still felt"?

I know the 'murican jail more or less replaced slavery, but thats not solely focused on black people.

OT: What is the difference between modern Irish and modern African-American?

Because like I said, the attitudes that made people think enslaving people and treating them like shit because they were black didn't magically disappear when slavery ended.

The segregation stayed, the prejudices stayed, the mindset that the black people were inferior stayed.
And the fact that the ruling elite was still white didn't disappear.
And the fact that the freed slaves tended to stay poor stayed.

Is there still racism against the Irish Americans in the US? If there is, that's still an issue but it's not the same as racism towards the black people. Just like racism towards Mexicans for example is an issue but it has historically different reasons, at least partially, as the situation black people have.

How certain groups are seen has historical basis.

Who holds the power in society has historical basis.

 

[Ambitiousmould]

As an English person I feel as though I have the least right of anybody to even join a discussion about racism, privilege or culture, what with us being basically responsible for the slave trade, the Israel/Palestine conflict, Irish slavery, Oliver Cromwell, The Troubles, various bloody wars with Scotland, we probably did something to upset the Welsh at some point, it's just that they're too nice to mention it, various crusades and various attempted stamping out of foreign cultures. We can't take all of the blame for WW1, but certainly some of it is our bad.

I nearly lost my train of thought there, but my point is that I was personally responsible for literally none of these, and neither were most people alive in England today, but I still feel a certain amount of guilt for my country having pretty much ruined the world.

Hmm. I was going to make a point about the fact that most people who hate England don't really have cause to because these most of these conflicts were between generations long gone, but you know what? Fuck it. After writing all that, hate away. I think that Irish people should hate us especially.

Oh yeah, and the Anglo-Zulu wars were pretty unjust and unfair. And we did some really bad shit in the Boer War.

Something of a disclaimer: I know that 'hate' is maybe too strong a word, and I know that basically all the countries I mentioned are full of very nice people who aren't hateful at all and indeed are very much inclined to joke about previous conflicts with the English, I'm talking on a more general, country to country level rather than feelings between individual people.

 

[Popido]

The effects of the black slavery in the US is something that's effects are still felt.

As none 'murican, this is alien to me.

How is slavely STILL having a choke hold on black people? Are they trying to reinstate slavery? Are the old slavers wanted and still out there? What is it out there that counts as "effects are still felt"?

I know the 'murican jail more or less replaced slavery, but thats not solely focused on black people.

OT: What is the difference between modern Irish and modern African-American?

Because like I said, the attitudes that made people think enslaving people and treating them like shit because they were black didn't magically disappear when slavery ended.

The segregation stayed, the prejudices stayed, the mindset that the black people were inferior stayed.
And the fact that the ruling elite was still white didn't disappear.
And the fact that the freed slaves tended to stay poor stayed.

I don't see it as that they stayed. I think you're dealing with new modern issues that have little to do with the past. Ofcourse, poverty is inheritable, but the rest was tied to their generations.

I see issues of class and education, not slavery.

 

[Lieju]

I don't see it as that they stayed. I think you're dealing with new modern issues that have little to do with the past. Ofcourse, poverty is inheritable, but the rest was tied to their generations.

I see issues of class and education, not slavery.

Yeah, because every new generation just springs out of nothingness without any of the prejudices of the past.

 

[RobertEHouse]

Race is a concept created by man in order to separate the so called "norm" from the "other" it is an out dated concept and should be remembered as much. The media uses it to divide us as well, flaming the fire by advertising that anything done against some one of a different color is all down to racial crime avoiding the facts to get views. The masses are easy to manipulate because this simple concept does not permeate their brains deep enough.It's a shame I have seen three riots in L.A and other parts of the US and world in my life time,because of so call "race issues". Personally am sick of it, because in the end such short slightness pulls attention away from the real issue of class discrimination and poverty in general. So believe me when I say I understand your frustration with the way people seem to think over the issue of race and slavery in general.

People forget the fact that slavery affected people of all colors not just blacks. The Irish are one good example of how slavery affected people not solely based on race. People were also captured by nomadic tribes in Africa and Middle East and those slaves came from parts of Europe,North America and Asia. There was a active slave trade between the middle east and central Africa till 1860's. The imperial powers had a heck of a hard time stopping it because of how nomadic way slavers live. There was never a such a thing called a well treated slave, all they were was Cattle that just happened to stand on two feet.