Is Bloodborne Genius?

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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The video is very long but the gist of it is that Bloodborne is a better game than the rest of the Souls series due Bloodborne forcing you to play in a fun manner. There's no shield or magic so the player is forced to basically play in a more skill-based manner. The commentator's theory as to why a lot of people don't "get" the Souls games is due to them playing wrong. For example, hiding behind a shield or throwing magic from a distance to beat a hard enemy isn't nearly as satisfying as going in and say duel-wielding. He brings up a theory called "play conditioning" makes a lot of sense as one of the first things you get is a shield in Dark Souls thus the player assumes they need to use a shield.

For the most part, I agree with most of what he says to various degrees. For example, go back and read Jim Sterling's Vanquish review and it was obvious he played the game like a boring cover shooter instead of the action game it is thus he had far less fun with the game than someone that played the game like you play a Platinum game. There's also lots of games that allow for great player creativity and if someone isn't very creative and just does the same thing over and over again (because it works), they won't enjoy the game as much. For example, Dishonored is a lot more fun being creative and trying to find new and interesting ways to combine powers vs just playing it like say Thief.

Onto my opinion on the Souls games. I personally never got why the Souls games are considered hard due to having rather easy and simple playstyles (shielding and magic). If you just play careful, the games are really easy outside of a few hard areas/bosses. I feel like Bloodborne is a huge improvement on the Souls series due to combat being faster and more conducive to fighting multiple enemies at once along with the game removing lots of things that don't really work in the Souls games. A lot of the RPG elements in Dark Souls didn't work that well like say a stat that does nothing. The weapon leveling was pretty messy. The shielding controls were worse than using shield in Metal Gear Solid 4, and the shield is gone in Bloodborne so that problem is just gone. The "parry" in Bloodborne is a lot more useful and satisfying. While Bloodborne is better, the combat still doesn't have enough depth and facing trash mobs to get to potentially great boss fights becomes repetitive. After seeing a Bloodborne trailer of an enemy knocking the player up, I was hoping there'd be a juggle mechanic in the game, but nope. The level design and atmosphere are amazing so I'd actually prefer seeing the Souls series become a survival horror game where you have much less combat but each enemy is much more of a threat with more puzzles and traps thereby working with the great atmosphere to set even greater tension.
 

shrekfan246

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Phoenixmgs said:
The commentator's theory as to why a lot of people don't "get" the Souls games is due to them playing wrong. For example, hiding behind a shield or throwing magic from a distance to beat a hard enemy isn't nearly as satisfying as going in and say duel-wielding.
Honestly, this is one of the few things from the video that I disagree with; not the general sentiment, but the more specific idea that playing Souls games by relying on a shield is the "wrong" way to play them.

While I agree that they condition the player to feel like a shield is necessary, and that for many players that won't be a satisfying style to actually use, saying that it's not the "fun" way to play kinda erases all of the people like myself who do get enjoyment out of having tense pitched back-and-forths rather than weaving to and fro all dodgy-like. It also diminishes what I believe to be part of the true brilliance of the Souls franchise, which is how open the games are to multiple play-styles in the first place. The fact that playing with a tank who uses greatswords and a greatshield is every bit as viable as going completely naked with dual-axes (for PvE, at least, I honestly don't care about the PvP stuff, which is a bit of a shame considering how much of the game is balanced around it) is something I believe to be a point in the game's favor, not an issue that needs to be fixed.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
It would be much more genius if it came out on pc, but since sony owns it. Its just in the advanced program, not genius.
 

sXeth

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Well, as someone who's been through all 4 of the things (I started at Dark Souls 1, no Demons Souls), I personally found the magic the most engaging. It requires some forethought and strategy behind how and when to apply your limited resource of magic and forethought in spell choices since you have limited slots for options.

The shield I just found boring. The dodgy-stuff (which you end up doing with magic anyways) was the same as any other game, with maybe some tighter timing and punishment for excessive spamming of it via the stamina meter. Which is to say, light attack-light attack-roll wins basically everything, if not in a timely manner. With the heavy attack sprinkled in after you dodge an obvious big wind up move. Some games incentivize the breaking from that safe pattern with rewards for combos or fast pace, but Souls/Borne is not one of them.

Though in strict contrast with Dark Souls 3, Bloodborne at least felt like it was making an effort to innovate and be its own game, or even a solid sequel. Dark Souls 3 really was beginnning the drift into Assassins Creed style territory of regurgitating the same gameplay with a new paint job.
 

bluegate

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Ah yes, that hour and a half movie talking about Bloodborne. Who sits through that? What does he even talk about for so long?


As for me personally, yeah, I think that Bloodborne is an exceptionally well made game and I loved every minute of it.
 

JohnnyDelRay

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I've only had a brief foray into Bloodborne (don't own a PS4 yet), but from what I saw, I really enjoyed the quicker pace and more reflex-based combat. But then again, I didn't play Dark Souls with a shield. I used an Uchigatana, and parried, rolled, backstabbed my way through every single boss with it (except the flying ones, of course). Only time I used a shield was with gravelord Nito, because of his huge AOE blast that would just send me rolling and flipping and getting overwhelmed real quick.

But yea, sorry I didn't watch the whole video but for your TL;DR I can agree, play conditioning can easily set you into a boring, grindy groove. And though I love Jim Sterling, he mos def didn't play Vanquish the way it was meant to, because that game is non-stop adrenaline and I love it. If you're not sliding and vaulting over stuff while pulling 180 headshots and dismembering robots then you're doing it wrong.

I'll definitely be giving Bloodborne a go once I get a hold of a PS4.
 

Rabish Bini

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Alas, I have not been able to play besides at a friends place. Though I will say from my brief time with, I agree with the video. Going back and playing DS1 I feel so much more confident taking the battle to the enemies, and I'm enjoying a game I already enjoyed previously a great deal more.
bluegate said:
Ah yes, that hour and a half movie talking about Bloodborne. Who sits through that? What does he even talk about for so long?
I've sat through it. As I have sat through countless videos such as this one.

Some people enjoy in-depth analysis of media.
 

Extra-Ordinary

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bluegate said:
Ah yes, that hour and a half movie talking about Bloodborne. Who sits through that? What does he even talk about for so long?


As for me personally, yeah, I think that Bloodborne is an exceptionally well made game and I loved every minute of it.
Yeah, I finished that video just the other day after watching it over the course of about a week in spurts. I'll admit, while Let's Plays have gotten me accustomed to long videos on youtube, some of the fat could've been trimmed there. He seems to spend some time reiterating points that were not only already made, but already reiterated. "We get it, shields weren't fun, let's move on".
Still though, he's got an opinion, reasons for it, and is very passionate about it, clearly, can't fault him for that.

Anyway.

You're second point applies to me as well, I love Bloodborne. I picked it up earlier this year having never played a Souls game (still haven't, not to completion but I'll get to that) and was freaking blown away. This was one of those times that I had no idea a game could be this good and was so thankful that it was a game instead of a book or show or whatever, freaking LOVED IT.

I recently got an XBone and a friend gave me a code for Dark Souls, been playing it a while, I honestly don't know if I'm gonna finish it; sorry, baby, Bloodborne saw me first. There's an obvious time, technological, and quality gap between DS1 and BB, not to mention I've finished BB and only beat two bosses in DS1 so it's completely unfair for me to say this but Bloodborne is just way better to me. Like I say, I know there's a gap, and I can feel it too, in the mechanics alone I can feel the screws they would tighten in order to create Bloodborne so I think I might just stick with ol' BB.

I *might try Dark Souls 3, might, I hear it's a good mix of the two games, but in the long run I'm really hoping for Bloodborne 2, which is somewhere in the "probably not" realm of sequels but still.

And as long as I'm here, here's another video, similar in title, that I find very entertaining and very well sums up my feelings.
Embeds not really working for me right now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOx6EBMLCpc&t
 

Terminal Blue

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I can't actually play Bloodborne because somehow the console peasants have revolted against their betters and declared it isn't allowed on PC for some reason, but as someone who was very much stuck in the shield and turtle mentality with souls games that video did encourage me to go back to the series and try again and, ultimately, to have a lot more fun.

shrekfan246 said:
Honestly, this is one of the few things from the video that I disagree with; not the general sentiment, but the more specific idea that playing Souls games by relying on a shield is the "wrong" way to play them.
I don't really get the point as being "shields are bad", you can quite clearly see in a lot of the regular game footage he (or whoever recorded) is using a shield, but rather that the way the game teaches new players to use shields contributes to many of them not having a good time, getting bored or frustrated and quitting. The really solid complaint, and as someone who played DS1 first I can agree, is that the game effectively teaches you to rely on shield blocking instead of the more difficult timed defences, and this contributes to an overall mentality of playing it safe, being incredibly cautious rather than aggressive.

You can still play overly-cautiously without a shield though. I often find when attacked my first impulse is to roll backwards, which is a holdout from the shield-heavy playstyle (roll backwards to regain stamina so you can go in and use your shield again). Rolling sideways or even forwards is often more rewarding and way more satisfying when it works, but it feels more dangerous to rely on the invincibility window rather than simply not being in range, so the instinct is still to roll backwards.

The point is that the game presents itself as brutal and difficult, then gives you a bunch of ways to defend yourself some of which feel "safer" to use than others, but this has the effect of pushing new players towards the "safe" methods rather than learning how to use the more unreliable methods which may actually make the game a lot easier and less gruelling.

Seth Carter said:
It requires some forethought and strategy behind how and when to apply your limited resource of magic and forethought in spell choices since you have limited slots for options.
In many cases that is true. Magic is certainly not the "easy" choice in a lot of encounters, but it's also so different to the rest of the game that it often seems to break a lot of the carefully crafted systems. Many bosses which normally require you to spend time figuring them out and maybe die to them a few times can effectively be skipped by dodging backwards and throwing soul arrows at them until they die, especially if you have a summoned NPC to take point. Homing soulmass further exaggerates this by making several normally challenging bosses quite trivial, just cast it in a position of safety and then run past them.
 

Fox12

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Is Bloodborne genius? Absolutely. Is it the best Fromsoft game?


The game has tons of pros and cons. I would argue that it's probably the second best in the series, though it's nowhere near as good as Dark Soul's.

Pros:
-Large, interwoven world design
-Great art design
-Great lore and narrative
-Excellent fast paced game play
-Secrets around every corner, hidden story material, attention to detail
-Insight system, though underutilized, is genius
-Original, unusual concept

Cons
-You have to grind for blood vials and items since your basic items don't restock at the lamps, wastes time
-Extreme lack of multiplayer
-Virtually no variety in character build, as opposed to Dark Soul's, which had insane variety
-Game play, while excellent, is extremely limited compared to Dark Souls
-Trick weapons are cool, but limited, and can only be used in a specific way
-Story is sometimes too vague, and important nuggets of information are reserved for DLC
-Camera issues

It's a great title, but it falls short of the original Dark Soul's both narratively and mechanically, I think.
 

ghalleon0915

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When I first played Bloodborne, I made the mistake of playing it like I did Dark Souls and was punished for it. That is, playing it defensively and being a tad too cautious ( my playstyle as a knight in DS1). When I played it more like I did DS2 ( as a dual wielder) things got so much easier. So, I agree with the whole play conditioning thing and why I actually prefer Bloodborne's combat over the Souls. I like how the bosses are generally aggressive and you have to be pretty aggressive as well. It might be why I loved fights like Alonne. Rom was one of the few bosses who wasn't THAT aggressive....I mean, if you don't count the headbutting/diving/bodyslamming spiders...or you know, that meteor like attack.

I like the new direction From took with Bloodborne, and as much as it pains me to say it I prefer it over Dark Souls. Plus come on, you get to wear a doll suit, seriously.

PS - being able to go "swoosh" to the side or backwards is one of the cooler things I like in Bloodborne...something I couldn't do with Havel's Set on, I wonder why.....
 

Bobular

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The thing about Bloodborne for me was that it made me play it differently to the Soul games, that is what really made the difference with me and made it all the more interesting to me. I normally play more agile characters, but even then I'll have a small shield with me at all times and thanks to Bloodborne for getting me out of that rut.

Side note:

I was quite interested in Vanquish before it came out, then when it did I saw a few different reviews that made it out like it was just a less then average cover shooter so I never got it, but you guys seem to be saying its just that they weren't playing it the intended way so I may give it another look.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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bluegate said:
Ah yes, that hour and a half movie talking about Bloodborne. Who sits through that? What does he even talk about for so long?
If you start at like the 13 minute mark and watch for about 15-20 minutes, you'll get the gist of it.

Extra-Ordinary said:
I'm really hoping for Bloodborne 2, which is somewhere in the "probably not" realm of sequels but still.
I'm guessing another Bloodborne is more of a possibility than more Dark Souls as didn't From say there are done with Dark Souls for at least a bit and Bloodborne isn't technically a Souls game so... But I don't really follow From or the Souls games much.

Fox12 said:
-Virtually no variety in character build, as opposed to Dark Soul's, which had insane variety
People claiming build variety is something I never really got. There's like 3 main playstyles; shield, no shield, and magic. Even playing a dex-based character with hardly any strength in Dark Souls, you could block almost every attack with a medium shield so going full armor w/ tower shield seemed sorta pointless. It really made no sense to me that I could block attacks by bigger stronger creatures than my character, yet I could. I should have to invest in strength and bigger shields to do that as my character was a rogue when based on stats. I really only stuck to the dex-based weapons, but the weapons didn't play much different at all. Strength weapons are just going to hit harder but be slower, it's not really that different, you're either blocking or rolling then swinging (slightly faster or slower depending on the weapon). I don't at all see the variety in playstyles at all in the Souls games, Bayonetta's weapons give more play variety IMO. Dark Souls also makes trying different things to not be worth it especially with regards to time commitment as you'd have to level up another stat (as I'm pretty sure no Souls game has a respec option) for a different kind of weapon plus farm to be able to upgrade that weapon. I found I actually experimented in Bloodborne much more than Dark Souls because of most weapons being not very heavily dependent on one stat and getting plenty of resources to upgrade a few weapons a decent amount of levels to give them a good try without feeling disadvantaged.
 

Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

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JohnnyDelRay said:
And though I love Jim Sterling, he mos def didn't play Vanquish the way it was meant to, because that game is non-stop adrenaline and I love it. If you're not sliding and vaulting over stuff while pulling 180 headshots and dismembering robots then you're doing it wrong.
Yeah, the only reason to use cover is to jump over it in slow-mo or to smoke a cigarette.

I really like Jim Sterling for giving honest reviews and scoring games based on how much he enjoyed them (unlike 99% of reviewers), but I do find myself disagreeing with him quite a bit as he just doesn't have the same tastes in games as I do and there's nothing wrong with that. His is so wrong on Vanquish though, apparently he didn't notice you lose points for every second spent in cover :)

Here's an exert from his Vanquish review:
"Vanquish is just another cover shooter with shallow gimmicks that have no applicable use. Sam's glide ability is only useful for escaping (or trying to), since there's no point getting up close and killed because you have no power left. Any thoughts you had of sliding toward an enemy, murdering him in a flurry of punches, and deftly sliding away like an awesome space ninja better be abolished from your head -- everything you do in this game makes you vulnerable, weak, and ultimately dead."

Bobular said:
I was quite interested in Vanquish before it came out, then when it did I saw a few different reviews that made it out like it was just a less then average cover shooter so I never got it, but you guys seem to be saying its just that they weren't playing it the intended way so I may give it another look.
Vanquish easy sets the bar for the best single player TPS ever, it's not even close.


Here's a Japanese player just completely destroying the hardest challenge in the game and looking completely badass:
 

Kingjackl

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It's my preferred game in the series as well, mainly because of it's lore, atmosphere and visual design than it's gameplay. That's not to say Bloodborne's approach isn't fun (it most definitely is, especially once you master the gun parry) but I can take it or Dark Souls' approach in equal measure.

Despite stat progression being pretty basic in Bloodborne, I think the weapon variety and the different transformations is where the customisation comes in. In Dark Souls, you eventually find one weapon type you really like and stick with it unless you're doing magic. If you want to wield multiple weapons (say a sword and spear) you need to invest in carry weight to have both equipped at once. In Bloodborne, you can hold two weapons at a time unecumbered, plus they nearly all transform, giving you up to four weapons in one. There's a lot of room for experimentation, learning the right weapon for the right situation, combos, when to use the transform attacks, when to parry, which weapon mode suits what situation.

It's not perfect and the Hunter Tools are awkward compared to the three forms of magic in Dark Souls, but Bloodborne's combat system gets the job done.
 

Casual Shinji

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Gameplay wise, no, it's not genius.

There's too many annoyances that keep it from that. A staple Fromsoft issue being the lock-on sucking balls.

Secondly, it's an action game that controls like an action RPG. Meaning stiff and wooden controls with a camera that, again, sucks. This doesn't matter too much in a game like Dark Souls, since it allows you to choose from a myriad of gameplay styles. But in Bloodborne the only options you have are 'go fast' or 'go slow'. The game is all about going on the offense, but when it moves so sluggish and cumbersome it hardly invites you to do so.

The gun is shit to use. The input delay is ridiculous and you can't even manually aim it. Yes, a gun that for some stupid reason you can not aim. Together with the shit lock-on it's no surprise most people playing choose to ignore the stagger feature. It's supposed to be a quick secondary attack, but it's too slow and unwieldy for that.

The magic in the game is a giant cocktease. You don't find your first spell until you're at least one third of the way into the game, and by then you're not going to suddenly start putting EXP into your arcane. So why the hell are there magic spells in this game at all if they're placed so out of reach with no immediate benefit to acquiring them?

Bloodborne plays like an RPG without any of the pros, but all of the cons, of an RPG.

Phoenixmgs said:
People claiming build variety is something I never really got. There's like 3 main playstyles; shield, no shield, and magic.
You forgot dual wielding, two-handed, archery, and miracles. Adding shield, no shield, and magic that counts for a good number of build variety to horse around with. And then ofcourse there's the variety in armors, which Bloodborne also lacks.
 

Fox12

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Casual Shinji said:
Gameplay wise, no, it's not genius.

There's too many annoyances that keep it from that. A staple Fromsoft issue being the lock-on sucking balls.

Secondly, it's an action game that controls like an action RPG. Meaning stiff and wooden controls with a camera that, again, sucks. This doesn't matter too much in a game like Dark Souls, since it allows you to choose from a myriad of gameplay styles. But in Bloodborne the only options you have are 'go fast' or 'go slow'. The game is all about going on the offense, but when it moves so sluggish and cumbersome it hardly invites you to do so.

The gun is shit to use. The input delay is ridiculous and you can't even manually aim it. Yes, a gun that for some stupid reason you can not aim. Together with the shit lock-on it's no surprise most people playing choose to ignore the stagger feature. It's supposed to be a quick secondary attack, but it's too slow and unwieldy for that.

The magic in the game is a giant cocktease. You don't find your first spell until you're at least one third of the way into the game, and by then you're not going to suddenly start putting EXP into your arcane. So why the hell are there magic spells in this game at all if they're placed so out of reach with no immediate benefit to acquiring them?

Bloodborne plays like an RPG without any of the pros, but all of the cons, of an RPG.

Phoenixmgs said:
People claiming build variety is something I never really got. There's like 3 main playstyles; shield, no shield, and magic.
You forgot dual wielding, two-handed, archery, and miracles. Adding shield, no shield, and magic that counts for a good number of build variety to horse around with. And then ofcourse there's the variety in armors, which Bloodborne also lacks.
There's also quite a lot of variety when you add spears, pyromancy, and great shields into the mix. And don't even get me started on gimmick builds.





 

Casual Shinji

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Fox12 said:
There's also quite a lot of variety when you add spears, pyromancy, and great shields into the mix. And don't even get me started on gimmick builds.





I remember those crazy bastards dual wielding great shields.

None can stand against Bazuso though.

 

stroopwafel

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Definitely. Bloodborne is my most favorite game of all time. The gameplay, the atmosphere, the story; the game is like tailor made to my personal tastes. :p