Is Brian Jacques's Redwall Racist?

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mrhappyface

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My friend recommended me to read Redwall, and i found it kind of weird that all the bad guys are one set of races and all the good guys another set of races. I don't know about you, but it was kind of weird that they all have the same personality and they are all stereotypically evil or good? Or maybe i'm overthinking it. What do you think?
 

fletch_talon

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I think its a case of their upbringing shaping their personalities. The rats, foxes, stoats, weasels, ferrets, wild cats etc. mostly seem to come from a background influenced by abusive family/culture and evil warlords.

In saying that there has been at least 1 instance of the typically evil creature being good. It was a wildcat and I think it was in either Redwall or Mossflower, but he helped the good guys.

Besides which for it to be racist (in a real world sense) it would have to assign a human race to the evil vermin, thus associating them with black people or asian people etc.
The reality is that the bad guys in redwall just sound like stereotypical bad guys, pirates, criminals and the like.

So no, its not racist in a real world sense. And it simply has insufficient portrayal of non-evil vermin.
 

Nepeccel

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Well it's a book isn't it. What a shame it will be if authors and storytellers are labelled racist when they write good stories about forces of good and evil.
 

RebelRising

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Maybe one set of races has collective motives and goals, while one set of races have others?

This is just a hunch, but what you described is not at all unique, nor is it exclusive to that particular genre. "us vs. Them" has been one of the most prolific elements of story since the beginning of human history, and it is just one branch of the concept of conflict.

It's like mob movies: most of the mobs are opposed, and have different motivations and methods of business. Fo example, the Russian mob is into human trafficking and weapons smuggling, Latino cartels are into drugs and arms, Italian mobs are into racketeering businesses, and the Irish mob are into supporting the IRA. Those are generalizations, but they essentially set up conflicts while making each action context-sensitive to the culture.
 

mrhappyface

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It just seemed that all the vermin are inherently bad, like in Outcast of Redwall, the main character is ferret raised in Redwall Abbey and he turns out to be bad in the end.
 

Deleted

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I haven't heard about hat book for YEARS, man talk about a blast from the past.

Cid SilverWing said:
It sure as hell is racist against foxes.

... What?
Imagining your avatar saying that has got me in stitches haha
 

mrhappyface

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I just find it weird, because Jacques tends to humanize the foes, unlike Tolkein who explains that Orcs are corrupted elves or C.S. Lewis who makes it pretty obvious that the bad guys are bad guys just to be evil. Jacques gives the vermin speaking roles and personality so it still seems kind of strange that they are all considered bad.
 

Mako144

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mrhappyface said:
It just seemed that all the vermin are inherently bad, like in Outcast of Redwall, the main character is ferret raised in Redwall Abbey and he turns out to be bad in the end.
I know it may seem dorky to over analyze a Redwall book, unfortunately I've read them all far too many times. I think the character in that book was raised in a situation where every treated him like a vermin, so he grew up to meet their racist expectations. I think the opposite also happened in Taggerung.

Also, there have been several, non-evil vermin. A couple searats turn out good as well as a corsair stoat in Pearls of Lutra and the Gingiveres all turn out good. @ fletch_talon the Gingiveres were in both Redwall and Mossflower.

Like I said, I've read these books way too many times.
 

Jenkins

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the redwall Series is AMAZING easily one of the best I have ever read.

IMO: the hares are the best
 

mrhappyface

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I don't think Redwall is bad, i think its pretty good actually, but i just found that one aspect strange.
 

mrhappyface

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I just think it would have been cooler if it took the Mass Effect or Dragon Age approach where everyone is kind of neutral except for the Dark Spawn and Geth.
 

Xanadu84

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Sometimes, a story is weak in some places in order to be strong in others. Redwall (And fantasy in general) tend to take certain races, and make them naturally evil, in order to better examine the actual conflict between good and evil. If Orcs (Or Rats) were complex beings who differed from the humans (Mice) only in upbringing and environment, raising moral quandrys about killing them indiscriminately...well, it might be a good story. But it wouldn't be the story that the author wanted to tell. So they make an organism naturally infused with evil, and make them inhuman in order to discourage people from looking at it from a racist perspective. Then you can focus on a good versus evil epic filled with streamlined heroism, self-sacrifice, and gritty determination. This is fine: Imagine if Die Hard was filled with a in depth understanding of the main characters childhood fears, or if a good chunk of The Matrix was scenes of Neo and Trinity dating, and Neo getting over his intimacy issues. Those things are not important to the story as the creator wants it told, so they are glossed over. What the story loses in realism it makes up for in being streamlined and focused.

The one thing that strikes me as potentially slightly racist in Tolkien in particular is within human lineages. Certain bloodlines are strong, and make good leaders, while others are weak and watered down. Having some humans inferior to others may be plot necessary, but its a little awkward.
 

Kasawd

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I believe each species is an interpretation of a type of person, rather than a race.

Anyway, Cluny is coming!
 

Motti

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Jenkins said:
the redwall Series is AMAZING easily one of the best I have ever read.

IMO: the hares are the best
I say old chum, you do appear to right there, wot?