Is CoD4 the most relevant shooter?

[Promethax]

Hold on just a minute here...








What's wrong with Load?

 

[MindFragged]

Hold on just a minute here...








What's wrong with Load?

At the risk of sounding like an ignoramus:

Wha?

 

[hermes]

There are some good points, but COD4 is not the first one. In fact, there are (at least) 3 Call of Duty games that used similar tricks to expand on the experience and being more than just "mere" shooters... not even counting several other games and franchises that previously explored those possibilities (like Medal of Honor or Half Life).

 

[Hero in a half shell]

-snip-

Would you say that the sections that humanise the enemy present a contrast to the rest of the nazi-killing fun, or do you think that these sections actually do a half-decent job of making you regretting killing enemies outright?

In MOH Frontline, its sections of humanising the Nazis pretty much completely contradict all other parts of the story. At all other times they are real monsters: There's a level in Holland where they shoot an otherwise harmless paratrooper trapped under a windmill blade by his 'chute. Later in the level the officers are terrorising old civilian people by pointing pistols and shouting at them (when you kill the Nazi officers the old people run behind cover and sit there with their head in their hands shaking in fear. it's a really chilling thing to see.)
Add to that the whole point of the game revolves around chasing down and killing this Nazi General whose characterisation adds up to that of a cartoon villian and it's easy to miss the sections where Nazis are shown to be vulnerable humans, but it's definitely a recurring theme in the game.

It doesn't go as far as to make you regret any of the people you've killed: there's a section where you ride around an underground railway in a minecart mowing down Nazis like ants, and many of your allies die in ways designed to rile you up and go on a revenge spree, but they just exist as subtle reminders as you are playing that these soldiers have feelings and emotions (like soldiers at a road checkpoint at night talking about how much the fog creeps them out)

 

[Scow2]

-snip-

Would you say that the sections that humanise the enemy present a contrast to the rest of the nazi-killing fun, or do you think that these sections actually do a half-decent job of making you regretting killing enemies outright?

In MOH Frontline, its sections of humanising the Nazis pretty much completely contradict all other parts of the story. At all other times they are real monsters: There's a level in Holland where they shoot an otherwise harmless paratrooper trapped under a windmill blade by his 'chute. Later in the level the officers are terrorising old civilian people by pointing pistols and shouting at them (when you kill the Nazi officers the old people run behind cover and sit there with their head in their hands shaking in fear. it's a really chilling thing to see.)
Add to that the whole point of the game revolves around chasing down and killing this Nazi General whose characterisation adds up to that of a cartoon villian and it's easy to miss the sections where Nazis are shown to be vulnerable humans, but it's definitely a recurring theme in the game.

It doesn't go as far as to make you regret any of the people you've killed: there's a section where you ride around an underground railway in a minecart mowing down Nazis like ants, and many of your allies die in ways designed to rile you up and go on a revenge spree, but they just exist as subtle reminders as you are playing that these soldiers have feelings and emotions (like soldiers at a road checkpoint at night talking about how much the fog creeps them out)

War is Hell.

It also tends to be Glorious as well.

 

[Bad Jim]

There are some good points, but COD4 is not the first one. In fact, there are (at least) 3 Call of Duty games that used similar tricks to expand on the experience and being more than just "mere" shooters... not even counting several other games and franchises that previously explored those possibilities (like Medal of Honor or Half Life).

Even before that there was Cannon Fodder. All your dudes have names. When they die, they get a grave on a hill, and that hill gets covered in graves as you progress through the game. After a mission you get a list of those who died and those who are getting a promotion and the KIA list is generally much bigger.

 

[Woodsey]

It's an interesting take on the game, and it reminds me actually of what I felt the series was trying to be with the first two games: commentaries on the messiness of it all, and firmly anti-war. They never quite got there, but you're right in suggesting that CoD 4 shows signs they wanted to make a comparison to contemporary warfare; much of the game sees you in a much smaller team, and you're often in outback-locations as opposed to cities that look like they've had a few hundred bombs dropped on them.

With the dive into gung-ho for the rest of the series, they just seemed to abandon that. I felt CoD 4 was getting that way anyway (personally, the game's never done much for me, the first two games being 'Call of Duty' to me, the rest of it being 'eh, CoD'), so it never really maxed out it's potential when it came to looking at either contemporary warfare or previous wars.

Eurogamer did a retrospective on the first Call of Duty a couple of years ago, and it's conclusion's stuck with me somewhat (paraphrasing):

'Whilst each entry into the series is now almost guaranteed to be the best-selling game of all time, you can't help but feel that, when replaying the original, it could have been so much more than that.'

 

[MindFragged]

There are some good points, but COD4 is not the first one. In fact, there are (at least) 3 Call of Duty games that used similar tricks to expand on the experience and being more than just "mere" shooters... not even counting several other games and franchises that previously explored those possibilities (like Medal of Honor or Half Life).

I'd like to hear how. I'm ashamed to say I only got into CoD at number 3, which wasn't exactly stellar (though still enjoyable). You raise a good point though - CoD4 is not the first FPS to make you feel the impact of warfare on a certain level. If its the best marriage of mechanics and 'message' remains to be debated, of course. I know my choice of the word 'relevant' is a bit vague, but I was kind of getting at how it uses its parts to comment on both its subject and its own portrayal of events through the FPS format.

The difference between what CoD4 does and a shooter that makes you feel sympathy for the enemy and your comrades (thereby acknowledging the hypothetical human cost of your actions and others in such a scenario) is difficult for me to pin down. I suppose it is that while the latter makes you feel something on an emotional level, the former also made me consider the form of the game in relation to its subject, and that's what I think is special.

-snip-

-snip-

In MOH Frontline, its sections of humanising the Nazis pretty much completely contradict all other parts of the story. At all other times they are real monsters: There's a level in Holland where they shoot an otherwise harmless paratrooper trapped under a windmill blade by his 'chute. Later in the level the officers are terrorising old civilian people by pointing pistols and shouting at them (when you kill the Nazi officers the old people run behind cover and sit there with their head in their hands shaking in fear. it's a really chilling thing to see.)
Add to that the whole point of the game revolves around chasing down and killing this Nazi General whose characterisation adds up to that of a cartoon villian and it's easy to miss the sections where Nazis are shown to be vulnerable humans, but it's definitely a recurring theme in the game.

It doesn't go as far as to make you regret any of the people you've killed: there's a section where you ride around an underground railway in a minecart mowing down Nazis like ants, and many of your allies die in ways designed to rile you up and go on a revenge spree, but they just exist as subtle reminders as you are playing that these soldiers have feelings and emotions (like soldiers at a road checkpoint at night talking about how much the fog creeps them out)

Hrm. Seems like there are interesting contradictions there like those already discussed in CoD4. Perhaps these humanising interludes could be said to provide a similar frame of reference/apologia for the rest of the game ie. though it requires you to have fun mowing down waves of them evil, evil Nazis, it still invites you to consider that in reality both sides lost sons, father, daughters, mothers etc.

Or they're just a poor attempt to add depth to the treatment of WW2 in a title that is otherwise jingoistic, gung-ho nonsense. Until I play the game, I couldn't say. I can happily state what I have about CoD4 and the AC-130 section because the reading is so well supported by the rest of the 'text'.

Feels like I need to get out there and check out the rest of the CoD series, and MOH: Frontline to boot.

 

[StashAugustine]

War is Hell.

It also tends to be Glorious as well.

This is one of the reasons I loved CoD4: it did a great job of portraying the dirty side of war without falling into preachyness. I've always thought it a little odd that everyone thinks of the sequels as more gung-ho, considering the villain is an American general who has the CIA participate in a terrorist attack.

Even before that there was Cannon Fodder. All your dudes have names. When they die, they get a grave on a hill, and that hill gets covered in graves as you progress through the game. After a mission you get a list of those who died and those who are getting a promotion and the KIA list is generally much bigger.

Reminds me of X-Com. That game had ridiculous casualty rates.