Is erasing someone from time the same as killing them?

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Reiper

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So inspired by the other thread about the morality of not saving someone, I have another question to pose to OT


If you had a hypothetical time machine, and you really disliked someone, is going back in time to ensure they were never born the same as killing them?

Admittedly there is no suffering as there is in the violent act of murder, but the effect is more or less the same. You have removed them from the world.

For example, just say there is this bully you really hate at school, and you think you want to kill them. Luckily, you have a time machine, and instead you simply phase them from existence by ensuring they are never conceived. Did you kill them?
 

BathorysGraveland2

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Well, I'd say no, it isn't the same. It's completely different. But it'd probably carry the same weight of nastiness and immorality as outright killing them would. In my mind, at least.
 

Greg White

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I'm going with no because you didn't kill them(unless killing was involved in the process), you just uncreated them.

You just created an alternate timeline where they don't exist. Assuming you go by the multiverse theory, this is a natural thing that would have happened anyway in most of the possible realities.
 

Basement Cat

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I would say it's the equivalent of killing someone.

We should consult an expert on time travel.

TimeLord said:
What would the Lords of Gallifrey think, good sir?
 

Thaluikhain

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Hmmm...not wanting to derail, but if you go back in time and change something, you'll end up with people who are different than what they were originally.

Is this killing people and replacing them with what might have been?
 

tilmoph

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Jun 11, 2013
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No. Killing someone inflicts pain on the survivors, causes joy to their enemies, and keeps whatever impact their life (and maybe their death).

Erasing them from time does none of that. In a way, it's more moral than murder, since it prevents whatever provoked the murder from ever happening (in the way it did in your OTL, at any rate) without taking life from someone. Of course, I could see an argument that preventing the creation of a single person is usurping a power not even a murderer assumes; a killer assumes a person no longer deserves to live, a time traveler would be assuming the power to decide who gets to ever exist.
 

Shadowstar38

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It has begun...the drowning threads arise in new form.



OT: Seriously guys. What's with the questions that take basic logic to answer. No. No it is not the same.
 

Realitycrash

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Shadowstar38 said:
It has begun...the drowning threads arise in new form.



OT: Seriously guys. What's with the questions that take basic logic to answer. No. No it is not the same.
Dude. Basic communication and linguistics clearly tell you that he does not ask about logical equivalency. He is asking about ethical equivalency.

OT: Yes, it's the same. You are preventing said person from future experiences, same as with killing him/her. You are also preventing everyone else from interacting with him/her, same as with killing.
Though if no-one would remember said person ever to have existed, it might not be as bad as killing him/her, if you look at the consequences for others. Less grief from friends/family, etc. Then again, messing with time is a seriously big no-no since you have no idea what other consequences might come out of it. So if you look at the big picture, it might be 'safer' to kill someone.
 

Shadowstar38

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Realitycrash said:
Dude. Basic communication and linguistics clearly tell you that he does not ask about logical equivalency. He is asking about ethical equivalency.
I understood that. I saw no moral delimma here. Hence the wording.
 

Realitycrash

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Shadowstar38 said:
Realitycrash said:
Dude. Basic communication and linguistics clearly tell you that he does not ask about logical equivalency. He is asking about ethical equivalency.
I understood that. I saw no moral delimma here. Hence the wording.
There is nothing wrong with killing and/or erasing from time?
 

nexus

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I don't know how "erasing someone from time" would be considered morally justifiable or somehow "better" than murder. It's much worse.

Implying it's okay because no observable pain is inflicted is very staggering apathy, actually it's frightening considering that's how the world works today. See no evil?
 

IceForce

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But we already do this, - killing people before they're born. It's called abortion.

Oh yes, I went there.
 

Bruce

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Different. Not better or worse.

Better:

It doesn't cause emotional pain to other people, as they didn't know the person existed. The person in question also doesn't exist, so no pain there.

Worse:

When you mess with time travel you invariably end up changing things in ways you can't predict.

http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=2920
 

flashbak420

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This first supposes that time is entirely linear, which is a particularly western ideology. I would wager that getting into a time machine and preventing someones birth would impact, not our timeline, but an alternative where that person was never supposed to be born. Therefor since they were never meant to be born the action, or inaction as the case may warrant, carries no moral weight whatsoever. Not good, not bad, just what was.

The thought process, on the other hand does, and I would suggest that one person seeking to end another's existence is not a healthy thought to have. :)
 

Realitycrash

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IceForce said:
But we already do this, - killing people before they're born. It's called abortion.

Oh yes, I went there.
Except 'killing someone before they are born' and 'erasing someone who has already friends, family, a job, impact on society, etc' isn't the same thing.
The difference is that the loss of the developed person, if we ignore the whole problem with temporal mechanics, will have a far heavier impact on far more people than the aborted baby.
 

TimeLord

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Copper Zen said:
I would say it's the equivalent of killing someone.

We should consult an expert on time travel.

TimeLord said:
What would the Lords of Gallifrey think, good sir?
Technically I would say yes. Removing someone from time is taking their life to a point where it never existed in the first place. I personally would say it's no different from killing a baby in it's crib right after it was born.
It's actually worse as you are giving the person no means of defending themselves from you taking their life. Unlike if they were older then they could fight back or run!

However if you are going back further to a point where you stop their prospective mothers and fathers from ever meeting then that becomes grey as the person you are erasing never existed at that point and that persons parents might then meet other people and create new people who would never have existed in the first place. Or if that persons parents still met but later on, they would give birth to a completely different son or daughter than when they were going to when you stopped them.

You are essentially replacing the person you are attempting to erase with a new person who never got a chance at life. Very Red Dwarf [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inquisitor_(Red_Dwarf)].

Also you would have to think of the ramifications of either stopping the persons parents from meeting or having them have a different child or children. What if one of those children grows up to be worse than the person you erased in the first place? Or grows up to be the next Hitler?
On the flip side they could grow up to be the next Einstein but you have no way of knowing until you return to the future and by then it's too late to return (depending on what laws of time are in play [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.231707-A-Discussion-about-Time-The-Laws-of-Time]).

You then have to consider if travel is even going to change the past in the first place:

"Every point in time has its alternatives...The future can be shaped - the actions of the present change the future. To a small extent a man can change the course of history. It takes a being of ... almost unlimited power to destroy the future."

When travelling to areas in your personal past, the question most often asked is, "has time travelled already happened?". This is another way of asking whether or not the past in immutable. For example, has it already happened in history that a time-time traveller from the future has travelled back, or does travelling back change history? The two alternatives are usually summed up thus:

1] Time travel has already happened -- the past destination is really an extension of your present. Nothing you do will change history, and everything you do will fullfill history, barring abnormal interference. This is also described as a soft time-loop.

2] Time travel has not already happened. In this case the traveller risks the possibility of creating an alternative universe.

The distinction is far from academic. Let's consider an example:



Is there one version of this event? Do they agree on the details? Does Andy see Borak from the future? Certainly Borak should see Andy. Whilst travelling in time you will find that a meeting such as the one described above simply cannot happen. Basically Andy would come and go, and Borak would not be there. Borak then would not be able to set his coordinate to day 100 12:10. In fact, the nearest coordinate would be day 101 12:00. This prevents the potential paradox mentioned above. The enforcement of time-streams creates urgency, as one cannot wait around and then act on an emergency distress call, as it may well preclude the ability to answer.

Without a Time Machine enforcing travel to within time-streams, the following may of happen:



If Borak were to attempt to contact Andy, he would find himself up against the Blinovitch limitation effect [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.201912-A-Discussion-about-Time-The-Blinovitch-Limitation-Effect]. As Andy has arrived "first" his version of the events are immutable. And since he didn't see Borak, Andy cannot do anything to change that.

To summarise, the past is ordinarily immutable. What has happened has happened. Everything someone does in the present is recorded in the past. So what happens when someone tries to change history? Various phenomena occur as you battle with time. If someone attempts to change the past of their own time-stream, the Blinovitch limitation effect comes into play. If someone attempts to change the past of someone else's time-stream, they will find this immutable. It is possible, as the quote above suggests, for a being or machine of extraordinary power to distort space-time so much as to force the creation of an alternative reality which becomes the default reality for all time-travellers. Basically creating a parallel universe. (ala Back to the Future 2)

[Source:] My own article :p [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.204135-A-Discussion-about-Time-Travel-to-the-Past]
 

GundamSentinel

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You can't kill someone who's never existed. C'mon people, basic logic. It might not even be a bad thing, as the person in question won't miss anything and won't be around to feel bad about it.
 

Rblade

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Ask achilles, removing not only someones live but also once legacy is obviously worse
 

OneCatch

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I'm gonna be a pain here and suggest that it depends on the type of time travel.
If it's the type that creates alternate/parallel universes (3 in the picture - Source Code[footnote]Yes, that film has a lot of fridge horror when you realise that in all the times he tried he was creating alternate universes where the dirty bomb actually goes off[/footnote]or Star Trek style) then no, it isn't murder, because in their own timeline the person continues to exist.

If it's one of the types where you're actually changing your own timeline (as in Looper, Primer, kind of in Donnie Darko, though that toys with parallel universes as well) then potentially you could be regarded as murdering. Frankly though, Primer is so confusing no one would even be sure a murder had been committed.

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Captcha: Comfort Zone - I'm generally in it with time travel fiction, but completely out of it with Primer!