Is it fair to criticize or praise a game because of the options players may not take?

[hermes]

Yes, everything that the game allows, even those things that are not forced, are open to criticism.

Since you bring up GTA, let me put an example. GTA encourages you to play in certain ways. Stealing cars and money, killing people, etc... even when it goes against the personality established about your character, are valid ways to get resources and improve your chances of completing the game, to the point having a pacifist run (not killing anyone that is not actively trying to kill you, only commit the crimes the main quest asks you to (including not committing traffic infractions), is a more challenging way to play GTA.

As a counterpoint, consider Sleeping Dogs. In that game, there are score points that encourage you to play the cleanest way possible: kill civilians? Penalty; collateral damage over a persecution? Penalty. The mission structure are built to be completed as an undercover cop, and the game mechanics encourage the player to play accordingly.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Is it a built-in mechanic or story section? Then yes, I would say that it is fair to criticize it if it isn't good.

Is it player expression? Then no, I wouldn't say it is fair to criticize.

For instance, if I don't like the combat in Dishonored, then it is perfectly valid to criticize the combat mechanics. However, I shouldn't complain if I find one video of someone online who rampaged through the brothel, killed everyone, and then arranged their corpses to make it look like an orgy. The former is criticizing something the developers failed to do well. The latter is entirely on the player finding a creepy way to interact with systems designed for more serious gameplay. Sure, you could criticize the developers making that expression possible, but I'd say that if you do that then you should at least put forward an idea of how to keep the rest of the game's experience the same while also preventing that form of player expression.

 

[WindKnight]

Right, let's turn this on its head.

What possible reason would a player have to go postal on random NPC's?!?

Because we're talking about going completely off the rails.

The objective in that map was clear. Go in, unseen, with as little collateral casualties as possible, and take out the target. Why would I start popping caps in random characters? Couple that with the fact that I loose cash because of "cleanup", which I could've used on upgrading my equipment, and I loose points, which I know is gonna drive me mad every time I look at the Character screen.

Just take a look at all the Let's Plays of Hitman Absolution, and see how many (or rather, how few) have a tendency of going postal for no reason.

What reason do the players have to kill Captain Keyes in Halo? None, but bungie made sure you didn't get a gun till after you met him because they knew players would try to kill him, and they didn't want that. Its the same reason kids were made invulnerable by Bethesda in Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

Dev's know what players are like. Devs know what players will do, and is a conscious choice on their part as to what they will let them do.

Just typing hitman strippers into youtube showed me plenty of poeple certainly weren't discouraged by the point loss to 'have fun'.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Right, let's turn this on its head.

What possible reason would a player have to go postal on random NPC's?!?

Because we're talking about going completely off the rails.

The objective in that map was clear. Go in, unseen, with as little collateral casualties as possible, and take out the target. Why would I start popping caps in random characters? Couple that with the fact that I loose cash because of "cleanup", which I could've used on upgrading my equipment, and I loose points, which I know is gonna drive me mad every time I look at the Character screen.

Just take a look at all the Let's Plays of Hitman Absolution, and see how many (or rather, how few) have a tendency of going postal for no reason.

What reason do the players have to kill Captain Keyes in Halo? None, but bungie made sure you didn't get a gun till after you met him because they knew players would try to kill him, and they didn't want that. Its the same reason kids were made invulnerable by Bethesda in Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

Dev's know what players are like. Devs know what players will do, and is a conscious choice on their part as to what they will let them do.

Just typing hitman strippers into youtube showed me plenty of poeple certainly weren't discouraged by the point loss to 'have fun'.

And I take it from this analogy that the people who play Halo, have an identical mindset to the people who play Hitman?

EDIT:
I mean, we're now comparing two wildly different genres. It's like arguing that drifting around corners is faster, because that's how it works in NFS. FYI, drifting makes you slower.

 

[Worgen]

I think it depends on the game, like if its part of a game series known for giving you certain options then suddenly a new version is lacking those. Then it's fair to call it out on that.

 

[TheJebus]

It's just video games.

Believe it or not most people who grew up with video games can tell the difference between real life and a video game.

Video games are in fact a likely cause of lowering crime rates and violence. It allows people who would otherwise be violent in the real world, an escape where they can take out their aggression on non-existent people and still feel satisfied.

Criticizing a game for the choices it allows you to make is only valid in regards to the rating of the game (E for everyone, T for Teen, etc) After all who wants to buy a game for their child thinking it's just a 2d sidescroller and it's rated E yet there are scenes of you being allowed to rape the princess when you rescue her?

 

[WindKnight]

And I take it from this analogy that the people who play Halo, have an identical mindset to the people who play Hitman?

EDIT:
I mean, we're now comparing two wildly different genres. It's like arguing that drifting around corners is faster, because that's how it works in NFS. FYI, drifting makes you slower.

Gamers are gamers. Give them something to interact with, some of them will instinctively go for murder death kill. Think of how many games explicitly take away your ability to attack or make your attacks do no damage when they give you ally's or NPC's to talk to, or put you in an explicitly non combat situations.

And again, do the youtube search I did, and tell me hitman players aren't like that.

 

[MrFalconfly]

And I take it from this analogy that the people who play Halo, have an identical mindset to the people who play Hitman?

EDIT:
I mean, we're now comparing two wildly different genres. It's like arguing that drifting around corners is faster, because that's how it works in NFS. FYI, drifting makes you slower.

Gamers are gamers. Give them something to interact with, some of them will instinctively go for murder death kill. Think of how many games explicitly take away your ability to attack or make your attacks do no damage when they give you ally's or NPC's to talk to, or put you in an explicitly non combat situations.

And again, do the youtube search I did, and tell me hitman players aren't like that.

This one was at the top of the pile, and I think it was pretty representative of the kind of collateral bodycount which Hitman players usually try to leave behind (which is zip).

 

[WindKnight]

And I take it from this analogy that the people who play Halo, have an identical mindset to the people who play Hitman?

EDIT:
I mean, we're now comparing two wildly different genres. It's like arguing that drifting around corners is faster, because that's how it works in NFS. FYI, drifting makes you slower.

Gamers are gamers. Give them something to interact with, some of them will instinctively go for murder death kill. Think of how many games explicitly take away your ability to attack or make your attacks do no damage when they give you ally's or NPC's to talk to, or put you in an explicitly non combat situations.

And again, do the youtube search I did, and tell me hitman players aren't like that.

This one was at the top of the pile, and I think it was pretty representative of the kind of collateral bodycount which Hitman players usually try to leave behind (which is zip).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hitman+stripper

Post the rest. Don't cherry pick.

Warning for anyone following that link - NSWF content, violence against women.

 

[WindKnight]

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hitman+stripper

Post the rest. Don't cherry pick.

First of all, search results are going to change based on internet history, so that's not a great measure of that kind of thing.

Second, isn't telling him to search one specific set of search terms about a game cherry picking as well?

I put two words, Hitman and Stripper, into the search, and I got lots of results that illustrated my point. I didn't have to be very specific to get a lot of videos showing hitman being played in a manner he claimed hitman players didn't play the game.

 

[MrFalconfly]

And I take it from this analogy that the people who play Halo, have an identical mindset to the people who play Hitman?

EDIT:
I mean, we're now comparing two wildly different genres. It's like arguing that drifting around corners is faster, because that's how it works in NFS. FYI, drifting makes you slower.

Gamers are gamers. Give them something to interact with, some of them will instinctively go for murder death kill. Think of how many games explicitly take away your ability to attack or make your attacks do no damage when they give you ally's or NPC's to talk to, or put you in an explicitly non combat situations.

And again, do the youtube search I did, and tell me hitman players aren't like that.

This one was at the top of the pile, and I think it was pretty representative of the kind of collateral bodycount which Hitman players usually try to leave behind (which is zip).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hitman+stripper

Post the rest. Don't cherry pick.

Speaking of cherrypicking.

It's funny that you had to stack the deck, in order to find the videos of atypical Hitman players (i.e. the guys who aren't fans of the series, and just play it for a quick giggle).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Hitman+Absolution+playthrough

BTW, you do know that you're essentially saying that a car is "crap" because you deliberately drove it into a concrete block, and now it's broken, right?

 

[Tohuvabohu]

Its the same reason kids were made invulnerable by Bethesda in Fallout 3 and Skyrim.

Is that really a good example though? Yes the argument that developers didn't want gamers to kill the children so they made them invincible is legitimate, but I think the answer to that is the negative impact it had on gameplay. From what I remember, the invulnerable kids were largely panned as a detriment to gameplay, because sometimes a kid would witness your crimes and you'd be left with an invulnerable unstoppable person reporting your crimes to guards.

Dev's know what players are like. Devs know what players will do, and is a conscious choice on their part as to what they will let them do.

Freedom is definitely a choice the Developers gave players in the Hitman series. Anyone who surrounds you can be taken out. And sometimes, Agent 47 finds himself in seedy/surreal situations, but the rules of gameplay don't change all that much.

I ask you, is it a bad thing for a game with the rules and design of Hitman to portray a seedy situation like a strip club?

 

[WindKnight]

Speaking of cherrypicking.

It's funny that you had to stack the deck, in order to find the videos of atypical Hitman players (i.e. the guys who aren't fans of the series, and just play it for a quick giggle).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Hitman+Absolution+playthrough

BTW, you do know that you're essentially saying that a car is "crap" because you deliberately drove it into a concrete block, and now it's broken, right?

The thing is, you can only do something in videogame if the dev lets you, unless your working very hard at breaking to game. And as much as you think 'no true player' will kill the strippers, my experience with games in general shows if they want to, they will, unless the dev makes it impossible, and I listed a few examples where the dev decided they didn't want you to do something, and they made it impossible.

Dev's aren't naive. Dev's know gamers. If they truly didn't want you to be able kill the strippers, you would not be able to. But they were totally okay with players being able to. The point loss is minimal, and is mitigated by hiding the bodies, so there is no real reason not to if your so inclined.

Freedom is definitely a choice the Developers gave players in the Hitman series. Anyone who surrounds you can be taken out. And sometimes, Agent 47 finds himself in seedy/surreal situations, but the rules of gameplay don't change all that much.

I ask you, is it a bad thing for a game with the rules and design of Hitman to portray a seedy situation like a strip club?

Its something they should really put more thought into than they do. Its cheap, seedy setdressing used for a mature tiara, without any actual maturity behind it.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Speaking of cherrypicking.

It's funny that you had to stack the deck, in order to find the videos of atypical Hitman players (i.e. the guys who aren't fans of the series, and just play it for a quick giggle).

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Hitman+Absolution+playthrough

BTW, you do know that you're essentially saying that a car is "crap" because you deliberately drove it into a concrete block, and now it's broken, right?

The thing is, you can only do something in videogame if the dev lets you, unless your working very hard at breaking to game. And as much as you think 'no true player' will kill the strippers, my experience with games in general shows if they want to, they will, unless the dev makes it impossible, and I listed a few examples where the dev decided they didn't want you to do something, and they made it impossible.

Dev's aren't naive. Dev's know gamers. If they truly didn't want you to be able kill the strippers, you would not be able to. But they were totally okay with players being able to. The point loss is minimal, and is mitigated by hiding the bodies, so there is no real reason not to if your so inclined.

And back to the "Devs know what gamers do in games when given freedom".

Has it ever crossed your mind that, that freedom is what dictates the gameplay of Hitman?

Hitman is a puzzle. Question is, do you solve it silently? Or do you brute-force it?

And when the reason for the criticism is the player, and not the game itself, the argument falls to the ground.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Some of this thread depresses me.

If someone gets into their car while drunk and causes an accident, do we fault the alcohol companies or the car manufacturers? No, we rightfully blame the freakin' idiot who thought he was in a fit state to drive.

Not to mention it's hard to think of a way to fix the stripper issue without causing serious design problems or without solving the issue in question. Just make them KO'd when attacked? Welp, they can still be carried around and put into compromising positions, not a solution. Make them un-drag-around-able? Well, what if the player is accidentally caught in a situation where they need to take them out to stop them sounding the alarm and they're in a wide open hallway where the body will be discovered easily since it can no longer be moved? Ok, make them unkillable? ...Wait, no, what if the player is caught by one and thus can't stop an alarm from being sounded?

I see only 2 possible solutions, one being make this a "if you're caught by ANYONE you insta-fail" mission like that one "case the joint" mission in Thief 2, or (my personal favourite idea), make it so that after a mission, you see a mini-bio of everyone you killed, and make the innocent people and/or strippers have bios that make you feel like a fucking asshole for killing them ("Home was foreclosed was only doing it to feed her kids", "Was kidnapped as a kid and just wanted to escape", "Was actually going to invent the cure for cancer", etc). That or pissing off a certain faction by your actions, a la alpha protocol which discourages the behaviour even further. A true solution would be nice, but I can't quite see one that doesn't cause further problems.

If a player wants to deliberately go against the game's design to do shitty stuff that's technically possible in the game, but heavily discouraged, the fault is the player's alone. Again, you're not supposed to drive drunk, but if you do, it's YOUR ass in court and not the guys who made your car and/or the booze you were drinking.

 

[CaitSeith]

Don't forget that some players will take those options. And when they do, they expect them to be as good as the rest of the game.

 

[WindKnight]

Some of this thread depresses me.

If a player wants to deliberately go against the game's design to do shitty stuff that's technically possible in the game, but heavily discouraged, the fault is the player's alone. Again, you're not supposed to drive drunk, but if you do, it's YOUR ass in court and not the guys who made your car and/or the booze you were drinking.

You can only do these things because the dev allows you to. For your car analogy to work, you'd only be able to crash the car if the manufacturer allowed you too.

Simplest option is to just put the strippers in areas you have no access to them, and they can't see you, if your 'not supposed' to interfere with them.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Some of this thread depresses me.

If a player wants to deliberately go against the game's design to do shitty stuff that's technically possible in the game, but heavily discouraged, the fault is the player's alone. Again, you're not supposed to drive drunk, but if you do, it's YOUR ass in court and not the guys who made your car and/or the booze you were drinking.

You can only do these things because the dev allows you to. For your car analogy to work, you'd only be able to crash the car if the manufacturer allowed you too.

Simplest option is to just put the strippers in areas you have no access to them, and they can't see you, if your 'not supposed' to interfere with them.

Well, to the fair, the manufacturer DOES allow you to drive drunk, there's nothing in the average car that prevents you from driving it if you're drunk, so by your logic you should blame the car maker for not preventing you from doing it. The crashing the car is purely based on the mechanics of driving. If you want to blame someone other than the driver for crashing, send your complaints to the inventor of Physics.

Much in the same way, the game dev creates the rules of the game, and things follow from it. Being able to shoot strippers and pose them follows from the rules of "NPCs can be killed", "NPCs can bust you, thus giving you a reason to eliminate them" and "Bodies can be moved to hide them". Yes, they DO have more control than the auto-maker, but they still have to make the adjusted rules function within the confines of the other rules or the design starts to falls apart.

Simply removing the strippers isn't a bad idea in and of itself, but then you'll just attract cries of "they censored teh gaem". At that point the "no kill in this mission" rule seems like a better alternative.

 

[Imre Csete]

Well, take the TES: Oblivion age rating fiasco for example, they put explicit sexual content warning on it because of the possibility to mod it in. That's hillarious.

Bumping it up to Mature from Teen because of the Dark Brotherhood gore is somewhat valid, even if that one scene is merely a friction of the content offered in the game.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

Bumping it up to Mature from Teen because of the Dark Brotherhood gore is somewhat valid, even if that one scene is merely a friction of the content offered in the game.

Well, if it's in the game and someone can see it, it should be factored in for the age rating. That just makes sense, no?