Is it just me... or does the Xbox one violate EU laws?

[Vegosiux]

So again either a non issue or another device on the list.

Why should we be okay with more devices being added to the list, though? I get what you're saying, but I don't understand this logic that a problem is a non-issue just by the virtue of not being the only one of its kind.

 

[Terminate421]

I feel like Microsoft got the logic from Transformers 2

America is the world.

I feel bad for my own country now.

 

[J Tyran]

So again either a non issue or another device on the list.

Why should we be okay with more devices being added to the list, though? I get what you're saying, but I don't understand this logic that a problem is a non-issue just by the virtue of not being the only one of its kind.

Privacy itself isn't a non issue, anything but and I am referring paranoia of "being spied on" by the Kinect as a non issue. I think that not wanting a Xbone because they are paranoid of it spying on them is a bit silly when you consider how many devices we invite into our lives that can (and do) compromise our privacy, many of them do a much better job if it too. The only reason it isn't really a none issue is how secure the Xbone and its software are, if its particularly vulnerable its more likely to be used instead of another device.

I even did a quick google but I could not find any data about how many people unplug their Kinect from the Xbox 360 every time they are not using it. No way to tell but Kinect could already be used that way and most people do not unplug the Kinect sensor and put it away. What about devices like the Nintendo 3DS? Thats a camera and microphone that you carry around with, wouldn't that be a greater privacy breech if it was hacked?

What about the Wii U with its camera and microphone that are "turned on" all the time (after all they are in the controller), noone got upset about that. Thats what I mean when I say non issue, loads off stuff can already do what the Xbone can do even just counting gaming devices. If that upsets someone they should already be upset and avoiding these devices

 

[DoPo]

And all these devices have the option to shut the recording down. But if you want to use your xbone.. you cannot shut down the kinect part that keeps recording both visual and audio... aslong as you use the xbox.

My phone? I can turn off the camera. My laptop? Ditto. Furthermore both will not passively record any conversations that i have with other people... the xbone will.

See the difference now?

As J Tyran said you actually cannot. There is lots of malware that can turn on a webcam but hide any indication it has done so. You're probably thinking "I can turn off the little lamp next to the lens" - that may as well leave it on if that's the case. Want "turning it off" capability? Tape it over. Or fry/dismantle it, if you're not going to use it. If it's a separate webcam, unplug it when not used. As for microphones...that's even harder - frying them is probably the best option, then just buy an external one. Though if you really wish, you can keep a very close eye on network connections and traffic your PC has. If it is engaged in data tranfer a lot of the time, then it's going to be really annoying to sort through everything. I'd suggest monitoring it through the router, though - you might not want to trust your PC if it's compromised. And you cannot guarantee it's not.

Phones? Oh, you mean the thingie that transmits your location at all times? Like, seriously - even if you don't have GPRS actively running and wireless also turned off, you know the technology to triangulate your location exists from before smartphones, right? It's not precise but apply some extra analysis (match the approximate locations over a period of time - after you move your approximate speed and direction can be determined thus narrowing down where you are) and voila. And can you guarantee the mic is off? How can you be sure? They've been some rumours of, I believe, the FBI getting access (either having or wanting to have) to passive phone tapping. Whatcha gonna do against that?

But let's have some FUN - RFID tags. They are everywhere - the thingies are widespread, pretty much undetectable (easily, at least) and can transmit info. Not a lot, the passive RFID tags don't get a lot of range but it's just enough. They are in the products you buy (why the alarm goes off if somebody tries to leave without paying), in various ID cards (if you can use it to open a door or access a service - bingo) even in your passport. By themselves they aren't really a threat. But if you carry enough, you would have a unique RFID fingerprint you leave everywhere while you haul all of them with you. Now, it's not really that much of an issue either...but remember how I mentioned shops? Every time you go in, you pass by a gate that gets all this info off you. Twice, in fact - when you enter and when you leave. Maybe more depending on the store. Pass by enough of these and you can be tracked and your movement habits recorded, analysed, and predicted pretty reliably. How to stop them? Microwave - for about 5-10 seconds, fries them right off. Well, als they stop working, duh, so might not be a good idea to do with cards you need. But there are sleeves blocking magnetic waves specifically made for cards. As a bonus, that means that nobody can clone your card. Otherwise it can be done literally without you knowing or suspecing a thing - it requires no contact, nothing really suspicious - somebody waving a little gizmo about a dozen centimetres from the pocket you keep the card/wallet can capture the tag and that's it. Card printers are readily available, cloning an RFID transmission is pretty trivial.

Anyway, is the Xbox really going to record everything? Or is this just paranoia kicking in? I haven't watched the reveal, haven't pursued any news, dunno if the information you present is real or imagined.

 

[Roxas1359]

Well Microsoft is no stranger to breaking EU laws that's for sure.
*referencing the many cases that Microsoft has been brought before an EU court*
But from the reveal one could simply take that Microsoft forgot that other countries besides the United States exists and that's a huge issue they are gonna have, well one of the huge issues that they have right now.

 

[AD-Stu]

I highly doubt your laptop turns the webcam on automatically.. and even if.. it has the function to turn it off.

Something the Xbone wont have...

There's been reports for years that if they can find a way onto the computer then hackers have been able to turn laptop webcams on remotely - they've even been able to turn the webcam on but leave the associated "active" LED turned off so people don't get suspicious.

That said though, it's an even bigger problem in a device like the Xbone, with a webcam that not only needs to be connected and turned on for the system to work, but also seems to need to be connected to the internet at all times so you can't even protect yourself by turning it off. And I agree absolutely, once it exists, someone will find a way to hack it...

 

[Grach]

Well Microsoft is no stranger to breaking EU laws that's for sure.
*referencing the many cases that Microsoft has been brought before an EU court*
But from the reveal one could simply take that Microsoft forgot that other countries besides the United States exists and that's a huge issue they are gonna have, well one of the huge issues that they have right now.

What other problems? Oh man you got me excited.

 

[RandV80]

From what I read earlier isn't the Kinect a bit more than just an audio/visual sensor?

Now if you want some bad situations that hackers could cause consider that Xbox live, not being content with just games strives to become a multimedia platform, is capable of providing porn. Good way to embarrass or maybe blackmail people if one was inclined to do that.

 

[Roxas1359]

Well Microsoft is no stranger to breaking EU laws that's for sure.
*referencing the many cases that Microsoft has been brought before an EU court*
But from the reveal one could simply take that Microsoft forgot that other countries besides the United States exists and that's a huge issue they are gonna have, well one of the huge issues that they have right now.

What other problems? Oh man you got me excited.

Well mainly everything that has come out when it comes to information about the Xbone has just been one problem after another. Plus since apparently Microsoft cloned Adam Orth before he got fired we get things like this from other executives:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.408672-Microsoft-Exec-If-Youre-Backwards-Compatible-Youre-Really-Backwards

 

[Auron]

Also as i said before: not many months ago the EU made a judgement that generaly speaking a Customer is entitled to reselling his online bought games just.. and this is important.. as if he owned a physical copy of said game.

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to read out of this where the EU stands in terms of pre owned game sales. For them a disk and the data on it can be resold, just not copied.

But pre owned games aside, the 24/7 spying cam of the kinect makes me scratch my head more then anything else.

Oh come on with the Big Brother paranoia...

Anyway that law was everything the europeans on the Steam forums talked about last year, Steam still hasn't created a reselling tool, has it? Don't think it's working out too well.

No one's stopping you from selling a game in the xbox anyway, we're not sure how expensive the fee will be.

 

[oraclekun]

Then theres the whole idiotic idea of stiffling the used games market. If i recall correctly the EU judged that if you are the owner of a game you can sell just as if you would sell anything else that you bought. Microsoft demanding a fee to install a game you bought from a person who bought it legally steps right over this.

It seems you're talking about Usedsoft v. Oracle. It did state that any software license can be sold by its owner, making even license agreements that limit sales a moot point. However, this is a verdict restricting itself to software licenses. Services like Steam are exempt, because they sell a 'subscription' if you will, to download and play the game. Besides that, there is some discussion whether or not things like 'online passes' can be effected by this verdict. (Personally I think they could be, but I guess that's a different discussion all together)

Now the Microsoft reveals so far suggest linking a game to an account through a code or whatever. In this way it seems to resemble Steam. Should this be the case this construction would most likely circumvent the consequences of this verdict by not being a software license.

 

[PsiMatrix]

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

You know what that reminds me of? Mom's Homestyle X-Cube 360:

Which also allowed Mom to spy on its users and recorded conversations.... creepy, isn't it? Especially as the episode was apparently written in 2010.

 

[Smeggs]

The kicker is that the kinect also suposedly records sound.. aka conversations.

You know.. microsoft is delivering a hackers dream... all they need to do is hack into your xbox.. and lets face it someone WILL do it... and they can spy on you. The fact that the camera and audio recorder are allways on anyways make it that much more easier since no one who owns an xbox one will be suspicious of the kinect doing what microsoft wants it do do anyways right? XD

i think ive seen the odd horror movie with this premise as well, now that would be a messed up headline

"killer stalks and murders family with the help of game console"

The media would have a field day with this and somehow blame gaming as a general evil over the actual issue of the XBone being an idiotic piece of machinery that made it all possible.

 

[Flunk]

They'll just slap a disable button buried 10,000 layers deep into the settings interface.

 

[Grach]

Well mainly everything that has come out when it comes to information about the Xbone has just been one problem after another. Plus since apparently Microsoft cloned Adam Orth before he got fired we get things like this from other executives:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.408672-Microsoft-Exec-If-Youre-Backwards-Compatible-Youre-Really-Backwards

Just saw that on the escapist's frontpage. Great, just great. Never mind that this'll have a bunch of complications on the EU, a lot of people will have problems with the always on Kinect camera and microphone, it won't sell well (initially) in South America because of its starting catalogue. Problems, problems.

Looks like the PS4 will start strong this time, as long as the WiiU sits with it's mediocre catalogue.

 

[synobal]

The best thing to do would be to put some tape over the Kinect. Or turn it around. But if they are the only two options then I think Microsoft have gone soft in the head (Bad pun laugh).
I like my 360, but this Xbox one is not doing a lot to win me over. I buy pre-owned games, because I can afford them, if I can't well, I may have to look to Sony.

Hackers dream? Try the NSA,CIA,FBI and every other 3 letter agency from every other government on earth. You can bet your piggy bank that all these agency are working on some patch to the firmware of this console to turn it into an electronic bug they can use. Honestly I'd not be surprised if they haven't already got the code to do it already.

Everyone likes to play videogames, including criminals, and a lot of criminals just aren't tech savvy enough to be cautious around them. If their bosses are their underlings likely aren't. Of course I'm not saying these recordings will get used in court, but they will be used to help build cases. Not widespread mind you but when it counts it will be used.

 

[Yopaz]

Watching the presentation i got the impression Microsoft forgot Euorope existed in the firt place. I think its possible Microsoft didn't bother to check the law of every European country.

There's a difference between the EU (European Union) and every European country. EU actually got the power to make Microsoft pay for their policies as shown in the lawsuit over only including In Internet Explorer and not informing about options and the 1.45 billion dollar lawsuit that Intel was hit with when they tried to conquer the market through hostile pricing.

OT: I am just wondering where the used game system stands according to EU laws since by those laws even digitally distributed games should be resold the same way physical goods can be. They aren't technically blocking used games, but it's not much of a difference.

 

[Olrod]

Plug the Kinect cable into the console, but keep the Kinect packaged in its box.

 

[Lunar Templar]

oh that'll be fun when they ship em over sees

I hope the EU lawyers rip the thing apart