Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[carnex]

My point was more that the awareness that comes from these are usually based on loaded studies with false equivalence. The big rape comparison done in the US is done between statistics of penetrative rape for women vs any kind of sexual abuse for adult men, for example, and then people go around talking about how much worse off it is for men.

I have heard of that slanted/loaded study several times, asked for study itself and didn't get the answer. I looked around the net, didn't find any study that would fit your description. Can you point me in direction of that study?

 

[Kajin]

See it works like this:
Videogames are a little sexist sometimes, so:
Feminists comment on that, which is absolutely their right, and:
Gamers who are SUPER sexist attack them with a response proportionality similar to nuclear attack, and then:
Feminists dig in and hold on for the long haul because GOLD MINE.

It's dumb to think it's still about the games anymore. Gamers, through just absolutely stupid behavior, have created a far more fertile ground of troll-poking than developers, with their too-hard-to-program-women idiocy and bioware MTV sex ever could. Here's a news flash: feminists are allowed to hate video games. So are atheists, communists, freemasons, your dad, crocodiles, and cavemen. If you don't like what someone says about video games, because you have internalized your interests into yourself, then the way to cope is to IGNORE THEM. When instead people write rapey death threats every time Anita last-name-I-can't-spell says it's gross how watching Kratos hump makes nymphs turn lesbian, then we as gamers are BECOMING what the critics of gaming claim we will be.

Seriously people, it's not rocket science. When Jack Thompson said games would make us all murderers we showed his ass by not being murderers. So if you don't like some ladies saying how games will turn you into creepy misogynists, please consider refuting them by NOT BEING CREEPY MISOGYNISTS. In a perfect world people who like Anita Sharkalien(sic) and her videos would watch them, people who didn't wouldn't, and THAT WOULD BE IT.

PS: Those of you who are heterosexual should consider being more tolerant of women in gaming, because sharing a hobby is actually a really good way to socialize with women, which is the first step toward emotional romantic fulfillment and stopping those frustrating weekly visits to the Rosy Palms motel. Those of you who are gay... well, frankly, I'm pretty sure the gay dudes aren't the problem here.

Spot on right there, good sir. People need to act less like assholes and more like fun upstanding citizens just to spite our detractors.

 

[Schadrach]

Not the woman who dared to make a video complaining about the depiction of females in entertainment and getting a shit ton of kitchen jokes, death threats, and rape threats for it.

Anyone who says anything remotely controversial on the internet gets death threats and the like, proportional to the size of the audience. I once got death threats for posting on the WoW forums regarding class balance (and my position was that the people complaining about a thing were right that it needed fixed, but that something else needed to be fixed first, or else another spec would be unable to raid because the thing they wanted fixed was the only reason that other spec was allowed in raids at all). I got people making alts on my server to /tell me death threats repeatedly over the following weeks.

I'd be willing to bet you that if we looked at someone who was as far from your martyred Saint Sarkeesian as possible but also said controversial things loudly over the internet that they'd get their share of threats too -- how about TheAmazingAtheist? He seems about as far from Anita as possible politically, and he's male so he shouldn't get harassed, right?

Because anita is jack thompson even though jack thompson got disbarred and anita doesn't even have the powers of a low level lawyer.

She's not a lawyer, but she's damn good at manipulating social media and capitalizing on victimhood. Her goal is ultimately the same though -- gaming doesn't meet her delicate sensibilities, so she wants to push it until it does. She's just doing it by pretending to be an academic and banking on victimhood to cover up the fact that she consistently misrepresents things, plagiarizes, and occasionally outright lies. It's shockingly effective, because it gets her followers to ignore any deceit in her "research" or any gaping logical flaws in her arguments by simply claiming anyone who disagrees with her is a misogynist, and therefore wrong.

Like how christians are oppressed by gay people.

If the gay people in question were trying to force and/or shame the Christians in question to let them have a gay marriage in their church? Then you'd be a lot closer. I'm for gay marriage, but I was also for that baker who didn't want to make a wedding cake for a gay wedding because gay marriage was against his beliefs. I'm all for diversity in games, but I'm against trying to shame people or manufacture a public outrage whenever someone wants to make or play a game that doesn't meet someone else's delicate sensibilities. Don't like it? Play something else.

And no, by the way, I don't think they faked their harassment. Because the evidence to that effect is shoddy at best and I think it's just a bullshit excuse to not take any of the harassment these women are getting seriously.

There's plenty of evidence that WizardChan did not harass Zoe Quinn when she put her game up on Greenlight, and that she claimed there was is probably the reason it was greenlit. Since then is another story.

Of course, claiming that they got harassed says something about the gaming community as a whole has an obvious problem. Let's assume harassment, and let's even assume it was a coordinated campaign of harassment. How many harassers do you estimate there were? I'd say thousands at the most, considering that many of them will have made multiple burner accounts. How many gamers are there? 10s of millions, as a low estimate.

Which means that we'd be measuring the proportion of the community that are harassers in hundredths of a percent. Single digits per 10,000 people.

To make a comparison, the violent crime rate in the US runs from 14.7 violent crimes per 10,000 people (Maine) to 113 violent crimes per 10,000 people (District of Columbia), per state/district. 213.7 violent crimes per 10,000 people in the most violent city, Detroit. Which means that people are claiming gaming community harassers are an epidemic because they are somewhere between tenths to hundredths as common as violent crime.

Would you argue the black community is inherently criminal? Of course not, because that's discriminatory, wrong, and painting a wide group of people with the sins of the tiny minority that are the worst, but that's what you do by claiming the gaming community is inherently misogynist and harassment prone, paint a wide group of people with the sins of the worst of their number. To cut off the counterargument I can practically hear you typing from here, no, I am not saying that gamers are like black people, I am saying that the people claiming misogynistic harassment is endemic in the gaming community are committing the same logical failure as a racist claiming that criminal behavior is endemic to black people. I'm not comparing gamers to black people, I'm comparing people making that argument to racists.

About TLOU, I've been wondering since The Professional what it is that necessitates the protected child/teen be a girl versus a boy. What is it about the dynamic that makes many men who aren't particularly drawn to female characters in general so enamored with the father/daughter dynamic?

Women and girls are given more sympathy for being in bad situations (not just in media but in real life -- which is why for example, women get shorter prison sentences for a given crime than men), which makes a daughter a more sympathetic character than a son. IOW, because people are subconsciously sexist in one of those ways that benefits women.

Bad things are seen as worse when they happen to women. Bad things are seen as less bad when they're done by women.

Add that to the father/child dynamic being a case of "write what you know", and there you go.

 

[Trippy Turtle]

Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as the like (although I'm not sure how one would go about suddenly "getting rid of them")

*[sub]I say this as a straight, white male, by the way. I just want something a little different[/sub]

Anyway, I've not heard of these "feminist demands" of which you speak. Were they etched in stone by Anita Sarkeesian, by any chance?

This is directed at everyone who shares the opinion, not just you but:
"Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as they like"
Why do we want this?
I mean sure, its not a bad thing if the character is different but I can't name a single game where the characters sexuality, gender or race would change a bloody thing.
Well except maybe gender, but it normally wouldn't change the game itself in any meaningful way.

A game is not going to be held up or even majorly effected by any of these factors. I'd prefer they put effort into the personality/character of the protag rather than what they look like.
Or hell, heres an idea; The gameplay!

 

[RealRT]

Feminism as it is is not the problem, it never was. Feminism is and has always been a positive thing (yes, I'm a guy). The problem is either crazy people who use a positive movement as a platform for their own batshit ideas or bastards who use it for their own profit. Also the problem is people who use video games, them still being the new kid on the block compared to literature, theater and TV, as a scapegoat for their own political agenda.

 

[Here Comes Tomorrow]

Feminism as it is is not the problem, it never was. Feminism is and has always been a positive thing (yes, I'm a guy). The problem is either crazy people who use a positive movement as a platform for their own batshit ideas or bastards who use it for their own profit. Also the problem is people who use video games, them still being the new kid on the block compared to literature, theater and TV, as a scapegoat for their own political agenda.

This. Feminism honestly needs to start policing itself because the "defenders" are just as vitriolic and aggressive as the attackers.

Just like how "gamers" are SO SUPER SEXIST YOU GUYS, "feminsts" are just as bad.

People really need to learn the difference between the super vocal minority and the people with an actual point.

And it's getting very tiring having to repeat this.

 

[Andy Shandy]

Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as the like (although I'm not sure how one would go about suddenly "getting rid of them")

*[sub]I say this as a straight, white male, by the way. I just want something a little different[/sub]

Anyway, I've not heard of these "feminist demands" of which you speak. Were they etched in stone by Anita Sarkeesian, by any chance?

This is directed at everyone who shares the opinion, not just you but:
"Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as they like"
Why do we want this?
I mean sure, its not a bad thing if the character is different but I can't name a single game where the characters sexuality, gender or race would change a bloody thing.
Well except maybe gender, but it normally wouldn't change the game itself in any meaningful way.

A game is not going to be held up or even majorly effected by any of these factors. I'd prefer they put effort into the personality/character of the protag rather than what they look like.
Or hell, heres an idea; The gameplay!

Honestly, for myself, I'm just sick of seeing the same 20-30 year old white guy with (probably) brown hair.

For those that aren't "the norm", I imagine it will be nice for them to have some representation. I have no idea how that would feel obviously, so perhaps someone who isn't a straight white male would be able to explain better.

 

[Dragonbums]

Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as the like (although I'm not sure how one would go about suddenly "getting rid of them")

*[sub]I say this as a straight, white male, by the way. I just want something a little different[/sub]

Anyway, I've not heard of these "feminist demands" of which you speak. Were they etched in stone by Anita Sarkeesian, by any chance?

This is directed at everyone who shares the opinion, not just you but:
"Hey, if it gets more non-straight white males* in games, then sure they can stay as long as they like"
Why do we want this?
I mean sure, its not a bad thing if the character is different but I can't name a single game where the characters sexuality, gender or race would change a bloody thing.
Well except maybe gender, but it normally wouldn't change the game itself in any meaningful way.

A game is not going to be held up or even majorly effected by any of these factors. I'd prefer they put effort into the personality/character of the protag rather than what they look like.
Or hell, heres an idea; The gameplay!

Honestly, for myself, I'm just sick of seeing the same 20-30 year old white guy with (probably) brown hair.

For those that aren't "the norm", I imagine it will be nice for them to have some representation. I have no idea how that would feel obviously, so perhaps someone who isn't a straight white male would be able to explain better.

It depends on who's asking. As someone who is black and female the chances of ever seeing a black women in games, yet alone as a protagonist is at an all time high of 5% in the history of ever. So me personally, I've accepted this (sadly) and don't even bother trying to argue. Just advocating for women protags in general is tiring enough. A black one? Fat chance.

Of course if I did see one, man oh man would I be so fucking happy....but yeah...not happening any time soon.

 

[PDugna]

What many feminists think their critique of the hobby of gaming is what most guys think of their critique of the romance novels are. They're usually so stupidly blunt that most people inside the hobby find them quite annoying, like Anita she's not a critic and I will never see her as one. She can point out all the damn tropes she wants but just pointing them out doesn't do anything much besides get some people to go "hmm maybe I can look at it slightly different" most of the time they never fully change.

What Anita is doing though is causing annoyances in the gaming industry not because she's a women or a feminist it's because she antagonizes many people both male and female and then goes "They just don't like my work because they're misogynistic" No Anita most people don't like your because you shit on their favorite characters and never look at how they're actually portrayed in a the medium.

The only real way to enact change without so much damn pushback to get to making the games other people want in the industry, while leaving the other groups alone. After that's all said and done then people can make there way to other games and explore and expand.

Still the best way for the industry to go is how japan is setup, the direction some want the west to go will only lead to more closed houses and more hatred.

 

[Ranorak]

I am a straight White Male, age 27, and I sometimes buy alternate costumes for female fighting game characters because they reveal less, so that I don't feel as bad about playing them.

Seriously, just load any big fighting game that is not a licences product, and you'll see more panties then a underwear store and more jiggles then a pudding factory.

 

[m19]

Maddox pouring truth tea. Not about gaming but relevant.

 

[Something Amyss]

I have heard of that slanted/loaded study several times, asked for study itself and didn't get the answer. I looked around the net, didn't find any study that would fit your description. Can you point me in direction of that study?

You'll have to wait until the next MRA assaults me with it. I don't keep it on hand because I'm not normally the one attempting to produce it. The British one frequently cited is the equivalent of the Klan releasing a study to the effect that white people are the most discriminated against, but there's more than one study used and they have different issues.

But since it's not my argument, I don't keep "men are raped more than women" studies around. Hell, I don't generally keep links to any study I find disingenuous, "my side" or otherwise.

 

[Racecarlock]

I'm not comparing gamers to black people, I'm comparing people making that argument to racists.

And that's where you lose me, because this is not the civil rights movement, it's not the stonewall riots, and it certainly isn't the god damn underground railroad. You're just crafting this narrative where the eeeeeeeeeeeevil feminists control social media and have made you some oppressed minority despite having no good evidence to that effect.

Oh, you got death threats and didn't care? Good for you. I'm glad you give so little fucks. But that doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to get effected by it, and I don't care whether one specific user harassed a female, since plenty of others obviously did.

Again, stop making shit up.

 

[Silvanus]

It is not. Our hobby is not sacred, and it should not enjoy freedom from criticism.

In the long run, art is often richer for the presence of criticism.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

At the end of the day. Just like what you like, regardless of what anyone says. I mean, your not playing games for them, so why should it matter? If you do like it, like it. If you don;'t like it, go do something else.

 

[Something Amyss]

She's not a lawyer, but she's damn good at manipulating social media and capitalizing on victimhood. Her goal is ultimately the same though -- gaming doesn't meet her delicate sensibilities, so she wants to push it until it does. She's just doing it by pretending to be an academic and banking on victimhood to cover up the fact that she consistently misrepresents things, plagiarizes, and occasionally outright lies.

You made a lot of pretty specific claims there, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you can back up roughly none of them.

Though by all means, feel free to try. I would not profess to know the inner workings of your mind, even though you seem to feel it's okay to do the same to Anita.

 

[Mandalore_15]

Take The Last Of Us: for my money, this was one of the inclusive, all-round diverse games ever, with female characters oozing with personality and inner-strength. Ellie is perhaps one of the best written characters in any medium ever, regardless of gender.

So I was pretty surprised to find (as were Naughty Dog, apparently) that the game garnered a not-insignificant amount of criticism for being "sexist".

I have to lift my hand here: I'm one of those who found TLOU sexist.

Ellie was well written and all, but when it comes down to it, she was just another poor frail female character that the usual male, white, straight, mid-40 protagonist must protect and save.

If TLOU wanted to earn my praise, it should have made us play as Ellie. The first minutes of the game, where you play as the Male White Protagonist's daughter, were the best and most original part of the entire game. Now imagine playing the entire game as a little girl all alone with monsters and crazy people. Now THAT will make you feel in danger.

I don't know if you have played the game all the way through (so be warned of SPOILERS coming up), but...

There is a LARGE section of the game where you play as Ellie. And yes, it is one of the most harrowing and scary parts of the game. Also, if you play the Left Behind DLC - where you also play exclusively as her - you will see she is incredibly well rounded as a character, as it fleshes her back story out a lot. Also, her frailty is to do with her age (she is 14) and merely physical, emotionally and intellectually she is FAR stronger than Joel, which is shown at many points throughout the story.

 

[Marsell]

for some reason when I hear something anita related, my mind goes back to the whole tina/antina thing that happened with dilbert comics