Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[angryscotsman93]

No, no it's not.

Artistic integrity is nice and all, but when that "integrity" leads to DoA volleyball and other junk (even Bioware, very inclusive, had miss Kelly dance like a stripper as a "reward" for you, for crying out loud!) then there's something wrong with the artist.
It's insulting, not just to the growing community of female players, but also to us men who have to be ashamed of far too many rotten eggs in an otherwise amazing hobby. To slap sex or objectification on a product isn't close to artistic, nor is it mature, it's childish like a bunch of younglings who's just discovered girlparts and that they might be fun.

So no, I don't think they should stop, I think they should keep going, not misguided to go after games just because they have a male protagonist (though goodness knows we could have more diversity there, not just in gender but...jeez, all those brown-haired grizzled white dudes...I mean come on, that's lazy.) but against all too prevalent things in games that makes them uncomfortable to women and any other group that feels excluded.

It would be nice if artists did this themselves, out of their own fountain of wisdom...but they won't, so I think it's better they feel some pressure.

I never did really care for the sex scenes in Bioware games, or The Witcher for that matter. I came here to murder things and chill out with Krogans and Asari, not watch an ultimately pointless "sex" scene.

 

[Phasmal]

It's more than anecdotes, it's something that's ingrained into our culture. Things like "you don't hit a woman", it's not "you don't hit people".

It's the guy who asks the girl out, it's the guy who proposes, it's the guy who pays for the date ... I am not saying these are 100% true in every case ... girls ask guys out all the time, girls have been known to propose and you just said you attempted to pay for a date.

I am talking about socially ingrained things that the masses agree on ... what we talk about on here doesn't really matter, what does it matter is if the majority thinks.

Take music, pop is obviously short for popular music but I barely class pop as music. I think it is total trash made by people who have no love for music, they have a love for money and they chose music as an easy way to make money. However, the popular opinion is "it's good" and so remains popular music.

It's not about my singular thoughts, it's about the collective population thinks ... I think in the right circumstances, you can justify hitting a woman, (have you read any bunny boiler stories?) just as much as you can justify hitting a man but the collective population thinks "under circumstances hit a woman, they are made of glass and can't take it!"

These `deeply ingrained things` you are talking about just seem to be stereotypes.

Also I didn't `attempt` to pay for a date, I paid for it. I've paid for plenty dates I've been on, or split the bill, much more than having been paid for. The waiter just gave the bill to the wrong person, who then awkwardly handed it to me. (Though I have to refine `last time a guy paid for me on a date`- my boyfriend reminded me he took me out for a curry 2 years ago with his money he earned from playing Diablo 3).

I dunno, man, you don't need to identify as a feminist, I don't care, but viewing society in such limited scope seems like it's not gonna help anybody.
The original post I quoted you on, the way you talked about women, it made me laugh, it was silly. I've had plenty of experience in being a woman, and knowing women and it's just like you picked stereotypes randomly out of the air.

I also have it on good authority that girls don't like boys.
Girls like cars and money.

See, now that's weird. I have it on good authority that girls like girls AND boys.
And also, apparently, love is not a toy.

Those damn wimminz, not being able to make up their minds.
We must get to the bottom of this.

 

[CaptainCoxwaggle]

No, no it's not.

Artistic integrity is nice and all, but when that "integrity" leads to DoA volleyball and other junk (even Bioware, very inclusive, had miss Kelly dance like a stripper as a "reward" for you, for crying out loud!) then there's something wrong with the artist.
It's insulting, not just to the growing community of female players, but also to us men who have to be ashamed of far too many rotten eggs in an otherwise amazing hobby. To slap sex or objectification on a product isn't close to artistic, nor is it mature, it's childish like a bunch of younglings who's just discovered girlparts and that they might be fun.

And it is exactly this sort of smug attitude that I am against.

I enjoy gratuitous nudity and violence. Many people do, there is a reason why we play video games for such ENTERTAINMENT. If you think that it's childish, good for you, I bet you read books that require a dictionary to understand as well and scoff at fantasy novels that cannot compare in anyway to the works of Tolstoy.

But to people who just want goddamn entertainment and stimulation, kindly bugger off.

 

[The Wooster]

Why are feminists trying to take away our hobby, which we definitely legally own?

That's easy.

We forgot to renew the lease, guys. It's not ours anymore. The bailiffs will be here any moment.

 

[Barbas]

Why are feminists trying to take away our hobby, which we definitely legally own?

That's easy.

We forgot to renew the lease, guys. It's not ours anymore. The bailiffs will be here any moment.

They'll never get past the mines. And if they do, the badgers will...see to them.

 

[Pips]

"Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?"

No. It's our hobby too.

 

[the December King]

Thank you, I'm glad that I haven't been annoying and irritating everyone with my nose butting and opinionated thoughts. ^.^

Not at all! After all, forums are usually just opinions, and having some ammount of conviction to say them.

 

[mecegirl]

Feminism -

1: The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

2: organized activity in support of women's rights and interests

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

That's what feminism is. If it isn't an activity in support of women's rights and interests, or a belief that women should have equal rights and opportunities to that of men, then it's not feminism.

Femenazi is an oxymoron. Like carnivorous vegan, or wrathful pacifist. It makes no sense. It doesn't exist. Don't use it.

Like, I don't even think people know the where the term comes from. They just use it all willy nilly. The term was coined by Rush Limbaugh while talking about feminists that support reproductive rights.....Because getting an abortion, or being pro choice, is comparative to genocide to him. To him it means that you must want all pregnant woman everywhere to get an abortion, all the time, no babies again, ever.

But as to the rest of the discussion.

Lets say that the woman who has been voted queen of the feminists (sarcasm alert) got her way. From what I can tell based on her last few videos this is the worst that would happen.

1. More franchises with female protagonists.
2. No more damsels in distress.
3.No more gender swapped female characters (like Mrs. Pacman) so any new female protagonists would have to be their own character instead of a spin off of a male one.
3.No more random side missions that involve brothels and strip clubs
4.No more sexualized dead women.

I might be missing some points...I will have to be reminded of them during the next feminist meeting. But goodness...however will developers express their creativity if the next time they have a scene with a dead woman she has to wear clothing? Its just not fair!(sarcasm alert)

Of course everything that I said was moot because all Anita was doing was pointing out how overused certain tropes(and folks ever argue if some of her examples fit the trope) are, not demanding that they never ever be used again.

 

[carnex]

Feminism -

1: The belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities

2: organized activity in support of women's rights and interests

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminism

That's what feminism is. If it isn't an activity in support of women's rights and interests, or a belief that women should have equal rights and opportunities to that of men, then it's not feminism.

Femenazi is an oxymoron. Like carnivorous vegan, or wrathful pacifist. It makes no sense. It doesn't exist. Don't use it.

Like, I don't even think people know the where the term comes from. They just use it all willy nilly. The term was coined by Rush Limbaugh while talking about feminists that support reproductive rights.....Because getting an abortion, or being pro choice, is comparative to genocide to him. To him it means that you must want all pregnant woman everywhere to get an abortion, all the time, no babies again, ever.

But as to the rest of the discussion.

Lets say that the woman who has been voted queen of the feminists (sarcasm alert) got her way. From what I can tell based on her last few videos this is the worst that would happen.

1. More franchises with female protagonists.
2. No more damsels in distress.
3.No more gender swapped female characters (like Mrs. Pacman) so any new female protagonists would have to be their own character instead of a spin off of a male one.
3.No more random side missions that involve brothels and strip clubs
4.No more sexualized dead women.

I might be missing some points...I will have to be reminded of them during the next feminist meeting. But goodness...however will developers express their creativity if the next time they have a scene with a dead woman she has to wear clothing? Its just not fair!(sarcasm alert)

Of course everything that I said was moot because all Anita was doing was pointing out how overused certain tropes(and folks ever argue if some of her examples fit the trope) are, not demanding that they never ever be used again.

Actually by choice o words she used, she is demanding removal of those tropes. Never forget the power of shaming in face of society. During World War I British high command used White Feather society to shame young men into army which was believed to be, rightfully so at the time, death sentence. Young men would rather go into hail of bullets than face public shame again.

And removal does mean censorship. That is one of the most headache inducing points of all this mess. By removing content from medium you are not for inclusiveness. That is the definition of exclusionary. Introducing more variety of everything would be inclusive.

People who play games, for the most part, don't give a damn who or what you are, what your beliefs are etc. Even when you flaunt them and people don't like them they perhaps kick you out of their little group, but community numbers hundreds of millions. And thanks to the internet you will find group that will accept your views no matter how extreme it is. That is exactly why I like gaming. I could be next to a person opposing every single point of my world view and we wouldn't care.

I really wonder will some people ever understand that it's not their right to never be offended. That is simply unsustainable idea. I take offense to things every day. So what? It's a part of a life. You have right to be offended. You have right to express your offense. You certainly do not have right not to be offended. That would be most entitled attitude every by anyone. Not even the Roman emperors or Russian tzars had that luxury.

 

[Something Amyss]

So, that's a very elaborate no? It's not like anything you mentioned here for a reason why you don't want to discloses makes any sense in that context. It's not gonna wear out or change or whatever. This is exactly the type of response that makes people, me included, that it's actually imaginary, made up.

Funny you should mention that, as I'm pretty sure you've done the same.

Though it wasn't a "no" for the record, it was a "how much time do you have?" And please, don't change it to me "not wanting to disclose." I don't keep specific information of this nature handy, in part because it's bullshit and in part because its ubiquity has generally meant I don't have to.

If you're going to twist my words and THEN say "that's why people like me don't believe you," then that's on you, friend.

1) Receiving death threats, insults, other kind of threats is part of being public youtube persona. It's not because of gender. Hell, often it's not even because of anything, trolls just troll. So, the point is, if you can't deal with some of the consequences of the profession or hobby you have chosen than maybe you should change it. You want to change behavior of masses? Good luck. You'll have better luck stopping the tide and preventing gravity. (technically second would accomplish the first but... water would float away so it doesn't count?)

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiYenTang/20130208/186335/Reactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php

"Everybody gets it" wouldn't be an excuse anyway, nor is it an argument of absolute parity.

I bet the Klan wish they had thought of that idea back in the days of lynching. "Everyone gets threats!"

Some of the women

These are known as "weasel words."

However, as I see this presented without evidence, or with the assumption of motive rather than any actual proof, you might want to take a step back. I mean, considering your last post (conveniently, quoted in this one, above)

P.S. It's not like threats and insults to public figures are anything new.

Yes, and? This goes right back to what I said with "everybody gets it."

Hell, using the Anita Sarkeesian case, she only got to be so "famous" because she got such disproportionate hate. You might argue that now she gets death threats because she's famous, but she's only really famous because she got death threats. I can't even see vidence that the level of vitriol has risen since she was just a woman on the internet asking for 5 thousand bucks and people were already threatening to rape her and making games where you could punch her in the face.

But hey, that's normal, right? I mean, thousands of YouTube personalities and Kcikstarters get that, which I'm sure you can totally prove to back up your claim in an honest fashion....Right?

 

[Eve Charm]

The main problem with Feminists in gaming, Besides the fact I believe the feminists are bringing down female gamers more then any gamers have been ((Hint cause 50% of the gamers are females so I'm sure they're not talking bad about themselves)) by being told by their peers publically " Look how much your being oppressed and looked down upon, feel the bads." Are that they are just to Single minded.

1. More franchises with female protagonists.
What about ones with Black and other races, What about other sexualities

2. No more damsels in distress.
What so males in distress? Should all our heroes just be doing it for a big pile of money at the end, how noble. What about country, oh no I'm sure their are females in the country so no go there. Hey even gone home fit this bill, I remember my sister being a motivating factor in the game and to not go into spoilers, may have been in trouble.

3. No more gender swapped female characters (like Mrs. Pacman) so any new female protagonists would have to be their own character instead of a spin off of a male one.
Dude raider! Also should we get up in arms on every gender/race swap in movies now, Sure a couple of people are pissed about Thor and avatar

4. No more random side missions that involve brothels and strip clubs
Why they are interesting places, A lot better then Random jungle or random 3rd world country town. If it's because you think only women get exploited in games in brothels and strip clubs I guess didn't play saints row 3 and DLC of 4 with all the men in gimp suits, pony carts and such. Even in normal games not the best representation of males either, Being all gang bangers or sexual deviants.

5. No more sexualized dead women.
Another thing that's not Exclusive to the female gender. If people want to screw around with "Ragdolls" dead bodies, Well anything that can be done with a female dead body, can be done with a male dead body.

I think Feminism would do better if "THEY" were more inclusive, Humanism ftw.

 

[carnex]

Funny you should mention that, as I'm pretty sure you've done the same.

Though it wasn't a "no" for the record, it was a "how much time do you have?" And please, don't change it to me "not wanting to disclose." I don't keep specific information of this nature handy, in part because it's bullshit and in part because its ubiquity has generally meant I don't have to.

If you're going to twist my words and THEN say "that's why people like me don't believe you," then that's on you, friend.

I try my best not to make claims I can't or won't back up with facts. I asked for you to send me or point me to where I can find that study. That implies that I'm willing to read it. And yes, if you keep saying things that are stated as facts and are not backing it up than people are right to conclude that you have nothing to back your claim up with.

http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/WaiYenTang/20130208/186335/Reactions_to_a_womans_voice_in_an_FPS_game.php

"Everybody gets it" wouldn't be an excuse anyway, nor is it an argument of absolute parity.

I bet the Klan wish they had thought of that idea back in the days of lynching. "Everyone gets threats!"

Do women get more harassment? Most probably. Is their harassment more gender specific than those aimed at men? Again, probably yes. Does that make females exceptional. No. And believe me, i saw far far worse threats than anything Zoe and Anita publicized as sent to them. Like detailed description of how one is planing to put me on a stake. And why? Because I told him that his potential employer had his right to refuse to hire him and hire someone with higher education degree.

And, to add to that. That person was in my apartment on several occasions before we fell apart.

Also, no I don't have a screenshot of it and even if I did it was in Serbian. I wouldn't mean much to you. So feel free to disregard this.

As for KKK, they would have to say "Everyone gets lynched" not "everyone gets threats". Quite a different thing. Also, KKK were identifiable as a group if not individually, so you have a frame of reference for that type of threat while internet anonymous threats are known to basically never come true. I know of one case, and one case only. And it was high school beating.

These are known as "weasel words."

However, as I see this presented without evidence, or with the assumption of motive rather than any actual proof, you might want to take a step back. I mean, considering your last post (conveniently, quoted in this one, above)

If I say women, you can disprove my statement with a single example. If I state names, I limit the number of people that is doing this. But If you want two of examples of people who are famous mostly for being threatened, Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn. Both were just a part of the mass until media outlets started reporting on them being harassed bad being sent death threats. They are not only ones, but they are two that did it.

And you know want. I'm not mad at them. They had a tool and they used it. It's deeply immortal and unfair to victims of real world events but business is not fair. Life is not fair.

Yes, and? This goes right back to what I said with "everybody gets it."

Hell, using the Anita Sarkeesian case, she only got to be so "famous" because she got such disproportionate hate. You might argue that now she gets death threats because she's famous, but she's only really famous because she got death threats. I can't even see vidence that the level of vitriol has risen since she was just a woman on the internet asking for 5 thousand bucks and people were already threatening to rape her and making games where you could punch her in the face.

But hey, that's normal, right? I mean, thousands of YouTube personalities and Kcikstarters get that, which I'm sure you can totally prove to back up your claim in an honest fashion....Right?

I have seen plenty of "internet evidence" that points out that worst of what went her way started with few flame bait posts on 4chan. If that is true, and if we believe her screenshots of harassment messages, I say it's the same standard of evidence to believe this, she masterfully played the system to earn quite a few bucks. But again, I'm not mad about that. She had a tool and used it.

I'm actually sad about female exceptionalism that is pushed so strongly. I thought we were about equality. But equality means taking the shit with the gold too.

And I already said, any notion of stopping online harassment is in a realm of fairy tales. Freedom is awesome but the price is so high that you must be prepared to wear a big burden to stay free. of course unless you are rich and influential. Than you can sidestep a lot.

 

[weirdee]

you've been handling this all wrong, all you have to do is just be more disgusting and offensive, and then they'll go away

 

[Dagda Mor]

First, warning, I am a woman, but I am not a feminist. However, I have friends that are and I do read some blogs written by them, and I do like to read up on some of the girl gaming sites to get different perspectives.

So I went to go look up Bioshock Infinite getting bad reviews, and The Last of Us bad reviews for the sexist angle by feminists because I hadn't heard of that much backlash. Well, none on the BI, and only some of Last of Us. It was kind of like my surprise over people saying feminists were in a frenzy over Saints Row IV, I hadn't heard that either. I was expecting something huge, I mean, the way you're speaking I was expecting some sort of huge movement in the gaming industry where women were speaking out against Elizabeth and Ellie.

For the most part all I saw was general irritation that we couldn't play as either person. And most did say "the story may have not fit the narrative, yes, but come on, you got a great female character right there, and we still can't play as her? Why are you teasing us this way?"

Most women that have issues in the gaming industry is just the fact that sometimes they'd like to have some narrative from a different perspective. We're not trying to "take over your hobby" since we need to possibly step off it. There's nothing wrong with creating some new story lines. Why not have Nintendo do a Mario story where Peach is the main character going out to save Mario? Hell, at least it would shake up the franchise a bit.

From a writers perspective, it's lazy story telling. They fall back on the same tropes over and over again, and that's where it comes down to. Yeah, of course you can have it be another dead female prostitute in LA Noire, but wouldn't it have been kind of interesting to find a male prostitute dead? For that time period, think of the story that might have set off. Think about all the twists and turns you could have had with that.

It's not only sexism, it's being lazy and complacent because people will still buy the games. Hell, I still buy the games. But I have to say, it would have been kind of fun to see what kind of trouble I could have gotten into playing as Elizabeth instead of just Booker.

Nintendo did make a Peach game. Super Princess Peach. She fought enemies using hormones. She literally had drastic mood swings with the press of a button.

Also, you play as Elizabeth in Burial at Sea Part Two.

 

[Something Amyss]

Here is a goose.

No cookie?

well...I accept your goose, but under protest due to lack of cookies!

I know what you mean. I've been getting involved with various issues since I was old enough to know how to. I think I went to my first protest when I was 10, possibly 11. And I've never stopped getting involved when I think things are wrong. Which is why I speak up when I see things that are wrong. Still, because I do have such a severe mental illness, I have to back down sometimes even when I don't want to, because I know what it can cause. There are only a couple of things that I can't back down from, as you saw in my last comment. The rest, sometimes, I just have to take a deep breath and say that I will come back to when I'm not so emotional.

Yeah, I honestly get overwhelmed sometimes. Sometimes I simply have to walk away from a subject because of it. Even this one.

I understand. A lot of people equate it with the MRA movement, when in fact it's nothing of the sort. And that's always bothered me, because that ends up making people that are honestly victims unable to come forward and get the help they need. If they honestly cared they'd stop this, and go out and help people. But the longer I'm alive, I realize more and more people care less and less about others and more about making themselves feel better about ?caring.?

Or simply "winning." I don't mind being wrong, which is why I admitted I overstepped in my reaction. I very much am actually for equality, though it's sometimes difficult to separate legit issues from MRA whining. I've even been ranted at my MRAs while agreeing with them that the draft is sexist and unfair. Although, I also find it funny that feminists have fought for draft equalty since the eighties, and MRAs often justify why women shouldn't serve on the front line, but at the root I agree.

Anyway, I fear we are doing this wrong. Agreeing, conceding points. This is not the way of the internet. Are we not supposed to bicker to the death?

That and the ill-man-ati using their secret female hate ray to wake me up.

One of their oldest tricks. It ensures you are off-balance.

But seriously, I understand what you mean. I guess it just comes down to how I was grown up around it.

Totally understand how that goes. I grew up in an environment that was very much pro-Israel and viewed Palestinians as animals. It can be hard to unlearn that sort of thing. Even if you're unlearning something that isn't true.

I think the education thing is also important just from an everyone perspective. Just think how many people could benefit just knowing what feminism actually meant. The people (and here I'm generalizing the MRA movement), that think feminism more or less means hating all men and wanting to bring down men down to be subservient to women. I always like starting with education. But then, my family wasn't very educated, and I was. So I think that perhaps that's where all this stems from. Just our different backgrounds, so we see different versions of what education can do for people.

Well, I do hate all men and want to bring them down to be subservient to women. But that's more a hobby. >.>

Unfortunately, we're sort of in this weird place with social media and the like where you can literally dial up only the media that only speaks to you. I try not to fall into that, but I know a lot of people do. I'm subscribed to one YouTuber who makes butthurt anti-feminists rants every couple of weeks, but she made one video complaining about the treatment of women and she had a bunch of "Fucking feminist! Ubscubscribed!" comments.

I mean, what she was talking about was both feminist and quite mild/trivia. It actually should have been relatively inoffensive. But one video, after several ranting about feminism, and UNSUBSCRIBE! ABORT! ABORT!

Saints Row and Volition did what games should do. They listened to their audience. That, in and of itself is rare. And more game companies should try it. They might get more games sold that way. I know when they make another (Gat Out of Hell is going to be great, I hope), I'm going to buy it. No matter the cost. They've secured my business by being a company that does good work, and the story was fun, especially 4. And the story was fun, which I won't spoil in case some people haven't played it.

That was the one were [redacted] became [redacted] and then you [redacted] the [redacted] from [redacted] only for [redacted] to [redacted], right?

I'm burned on Saints Row, but mostly because they keep chopping their games up. Still, I praise them for what they've done right, which is most of it. And the best part? They were apparently already listening to criticism with Saints Row IV, so we shouldn't have to fear anything. I mean, there are tentacle bats, anal probe guns, and boobs the size of planets in that game.

Mmmhmmm, password, okay. And your login must be ?Imabigbabyboy? right?

No way! It's "password." Nobody ever guesses it because they assume that's my password!

Is it wrong my hands keep trying to throttle me for even pretending to be that dense?

I'm glad we've come to an understanding. I would not like to be fighting you, but debating you, or just talking things out, that's much more my speed.

But again, this is not the way of the cyberland. The internet demands blood, and it must be sated.

Come at me, bro!​

I kid, of course. I'd rather be civil than confrontational any day. Now, let us all give thanks for tentacle bats.

 

[psijac]

Games is a billion dollar industry. If they don't win this space then they will be forced into mediocrity for another generation. It doesn't matter if you are a Feminist, Scientologists, or Future Farmer of America, if you don't even attempt to enter Gamer/Nerd Culture then you are loosing.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Why are feminists trying to take away our hobby, which we definitely legally own?

That's easy.

We forgot to renew the lease, guys. It's not ours anymore. The bailiffs will be here any moment.

Maybe feminists will take out a mortgage and move in.

Then you guys will have to step off of our hobby.

I can't wait to get the Male Tears franchise up and running.

 

[carnex]

Games is a billion dollar industry. If they don't win this space then they will be forced into mediocrity for another generation. It doesn't matter if you are a Feminist, Scientologists, or Future Farmer of America, if you don't even attempt to enter Gamer/Nerd Culture then you are loosing.

Please, why would anyone have to enter nerd/gamer culture? If I would be hard pressed to guess how many gamers are immersed in gaming "culture" I would have hard time imagining number higher than 5%. People don't give a damn about gaming "culture". They enjoy the medium. They enjoy their GTAs, their Candy Crushes, their Gran Turismos, their Minecrafts, their Farmviles, their Street Fighters, their Plants VS Zombies.

They enjoy their T'n'A on screen, they enjoy their unicorns, their bloodshed, their carefully created villages, their ultra combos of pain, their love stories, they take down huge monstrous dragons, and lovingly raise cute ones.

There is something for everyone in this culture. And like books, movies, music, paintings, sculptures etc vast majority doesn't give a damn about surrounding culture or their origin. They are there to be entertained, to enjoy the beauty, to have deep philosophical moments, to work out their stress and release their anger, to enjoy the competition, to take a quiet moment just for themselves, to retreat to their childhood, to ponder the future.

Do you really thing that all of them have desire to dive deeper in? I wouldn't agree with that notion.

You know what I see when I think about gaming "culture". Neo-nazi and black homosexual mentally challenged jew playing Mario Cart together and having the time of their lives and not caring even a tiniest bit about some "culture" that games supposedly have around them.

 

[Pink Gregory]

'Our' hobby.

I'm not one of you. What's with all the attempts at solidarity over fucking media, of all things?