Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

[Guerilla]

Let me just end this all now. I'm making a game. I'll put WHATEVER I want into it. If I feel it should have a white, male protagonist, then that's how it's going to be. Vice versa for female protagonist. Don't tell me I should include/not include what I want for a game that I'M designing. I'm telling a story and I'm not changing characters just because someone else wants to have more female protagonists. DEAL WITH IT. You want a different answer? Go out and make your own game, with your own characters the way you deem fit.

But the thing is, people WILL tell you how you should design your game, in the shape of critique. There will always be someone who wants something changed, and they will say so. It's how it works. People will tell you what they'd like to see, and then it's all in your own hands.

Of course, you can entirely disreguard any kind of player input or forum blurb, but a middle ground would be best. Keeping an open ear to what people suggest without letting go of the rudder.

False. This is exactly the problem. I am creating something as an individual. I'm putting my very soul into it. I'm making a game that I personally would want to experience. If there is great reception, then that is a positive. There is no way I would let any other person tell me what to have/not have in my creation. If you don't like it, I really don't care. Just don't play it or buy it. Or call it a piece of shit on a gaming forum, it's all the same.

Giving a suggestion the time of day is not the same thing as being told what you must and mustn't include. It is not an insult to your creative vision nor a pollutant of the same. It's just critique that a developer is free to use or ignore entirely. Both methods work rather well. I'm not in disagreement with the main thesis, not at all. The developer or artist is the one in charge and have the final say. A developer is always allowed to say no. I'm just saying that outside influence isn't always meaningless bleating or a corrupting force.

Shaming developers to do what you want by calling them and their games misogynist and sexist is NOT a suggestion, it's blackmail. If Sarkeesian and her kind had just said something like "it's a good game but I'd like it if I could play as a female too" from the beginning it would be fine, making obnoxious accusations about games and its creators is not.

It also depends on how ofter you're doing it when you're "suggesting". Saying something once or twice about a game is fine, SPAMMING and whining about every. little. detail in every. single. game gets old and annoying fast and creates a pattern everyone and see through.

 

[Guerilla]

You've used the term straw man at least once in this thread, so I *know* you're a proponent of rational argumentation that is free from fallacy.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof

You made the claim. You support the claim. It's not up to anyone else to disprove it.

OK then, this is the best I can do since there aren't, obviously, any studies:

http://mcjonline.com/domain/tumblr.com
http://mcjonline.com/domain/jezebel.com

Sarkeesian's videos also have 1-2 million views each.

As you can see they're extremely popular. Now, please link me to your sources of rational feminist thought that are more popular than these.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

You might be right. Why... is FeministFrequency on my second page? I haven't been on that site since her third video of the series.

Clearly because you've been Googling her like crazy to learn her sinister feminist screed, you monster!

OK then, this is the best I can do since there aren't, obviously, any studies:

http://mcjonline.com/domain/tumblr.com
http://mcjonline.com/domain/jezebel.com

Sarkeesian's videos also have 1-2 million views each.

As you can see they're extremely popular. Now, please link me to your sources of rational feminist thought that are more popular than these.

I...

Do you ACTUALLY believe that Tumblr is just a feminist site? For realsies?

I'm speechless.

 

[Guerilla]

I...

Do you ACTUALLY believe that Tumblr is just a feminist site? For realsies?

I'm speechless.

I sure love the way you deny everything even though everyone -including you- know it's true. Yes, tumblr is mainly a feminist site and there are literally thousands of examples of its insanity: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction

Keep pretending to be speechless, the rest of the internet isn't though.

 

[Muspelheim]

Shaming developers to do what you want by calling them and their games misogynist and sexist is NOT a suggestion, it's blackmail. If Sarkeesian and her kind had just said something like "it's a good game but I'd like it if I could play as a female too" from the beginning it would be fine, making obnoxious accusations about games and its creators is not.

It also depends on how ofter you're doing it when you're "suggesting". Saying something once or twice about a game is fine, SPAMMING and whining about every. little. detail in every. single. game gets old and annoying fast and creates a pattern everyone and see through.

Did I perhaps suggest that it was? I can't remember that I've recommended wild accusations of a developer's character as a good route of suggestion. Nor that spamming complaints reguarding every miniscule detail was another good way to do that. My point is only that suggestion and feedback isn't exclusively worthless.

Can't argue with Sarkeesian's poor methods of criticism, though. However, isn't blackmail a more appropriate term for threatening with an action unless conditions are met? The worst Sark & C:O could do is something of the effect of "Pack that thing in, or we'll tell everyone you're dumb".

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I sure love the way you deny everything even though everyone -including you- know it's true. Yes, tumblr is mainly a feminist site and there are literally thousands of examples of its insanity: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction

Keep pretending to be speechless, the rest of the internet isn't though.

Ho ho ho holy cow.

Welp, good luck with that Guerilla. I wish you a long and happy life.

 

[Guerilla]

Shaming developers to do what you want by calling them and their games misogynist and sexist is NOT a suggestion, it's blackmail. If Sarkeesian and her kind had just said something like "it's a good game but I'd like it if I could play as a female too" from the beginning it would be fine, making obnoxious accusations about games and its creators is not.

It also depends on how ofter you're doing it when you're "suggesting". Saying something once or twice about a game is fine, SPAMMING and whining about every. little. detail in every. single. game gets old and annoying fast and creates a pattern everyone and see through.

Did I perhaps suggest that it was? I can't remember that I've recommended wild accusations of a developer's character as a good route of suggestion. Nor that spamming complaints reguarding every miniscule detail was another good way to do that. My point is only that suggestion and feedback isn't exclusively worthless.

Can't argue with Sarkeesian's poor methods of criticism, though. However, isn't blackmail a more appropriate term for threatening with an action unless conditions are met? The worst Sark & C:O could do is something of the effect of "Pack that thing in, or we'll tell everyone you're dumb".

So we agree with each other that feminists have handled this terribly and that the gaming community is justifiably upset with them?

Blackmail is also when you keep the harassment going until the conditions are met, in that way yeah, it kind of is.

 

[Cronenberg1]

Let me just end this all now. I'm making a game. I'll put WHATEVER I want into it. If I feel it should have a white, male protagonist, then that's how it's going to be. Vice versa for female protagonist. Don't tell me I should include/not include what I want for a game that I'M designing. I'm telling a story and I'm not changing characters just because someone else wants to have more female protagonists. DEAL WITH IT. You want a different answer? Go out and make your own game, with your own characters the way you deem fit.

But the thing is, people WILL tell you how you should design your game, in the shape of critique. There will always be someone who wants something changed, and they will say so. It's how it works. People will tell you what they'd like to see, and then it's all in your own hands.

Of course, you can entirely disreguard any kind of player input or forum blurb, but a middle ground would be best. Keeping an open ear to what people suggest without letting go of the rudder.

False. This is exactly the problem. I am creating something as an individual. I'm putting my very soul into it. I'm making a game that I personally would want to experience. If there is great reception, then that is a positive. There is no way I would let any other person tell me what to have/not have in my creation. If you don't like it, I really don't care. Just don't play it or buy it. Or call it a piece of shit on a gaming forum, it's all the same.

Giving a suggestion the time of day is not the same thing as being told what you must and mustn't include. It is not an insult to your creative vision nor a pollutant of the same. It's just critique that a developer is free to use or ignore entirely. Both methods work rather well. I'm not in disagreement with the main thesis, not at all. The developer or artist is the one in charge and have the final say. A developer is always allowed to say no. I'm just saying that outside influence isn't always meaningless bleating or a corrupting force.

Shaming developers to do what you want by calling them and their games misogynist and sexist is NOT a suggestion, it's blackmail. If Sarkeesian and her kind had just said something like "it's a good game but I'd like it if I could play as a female too" from the beginning it would be fine, making obnoxious accusations about games and its creators is not.

It also depends on how ofter you're doing it when you're "suggesting". Saying something once or twice about a game is fine, SPAMMING and whining about every. little. detail in every. single. game gets old and annoying fast and creates a pattern everyone and see through.

Why can't people criticize a game for being sexist if they honestly believe the game has sexist elements? Should we stop calling out games with shitty microtransactions because we shouldn't "shame developers." Also Anita has said many time that it's OK to enjoy a piece of media while also being critical of other aspects of it. Why is feminist critique any less worthy then any other kind of criticism?

 

[eberhart]

Explain to me EXACTLY why I should include a female character in my game that I am making, when I don't feel like it. Hell, I'm not, but if I wanted to I could even have tons of female characters with big bouncing breasts or dull and weak in the personality department. Like I said, I'm not, but if I wanted that in my game, what absolute PROOF is there that these women made up of lines of code and artwork actually represent real life women? THEY DON'T. You are an utter imbecile if you get offended by fantasy characters to the point where you demand a creator to create something that is not their own creation by pressured injection.

"Explain to me EXACTLY why I should change the ending in my game that I am making, when I don't feel like it. Hell, I'm not, but if I wanted to I could even have tons of even worse colour coded endings.
Like I said, I', not, but if I wanted that in my game, what absolute PROOF is there that these terrible endings actually represent real stories? THEY DON'T.
You are *expletive deleted* if you get offended by video game endings to the point where you demand a creator to create something that is not their own creation by pressured injection.

https://www.facebook.com/DemandABetterEndingToMassEffect3

"It?s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C" - Mr Hudson

Feels like an important difference to me, a relative of false advertising perhaps?

 

[Don Incognito]

Shaming developers to do what you want by calling them and their games misogynist and sexist is NOT a suggestion, it's blackmail.

That's... that's not how blackmail works.

You keep using these terms like "blackmail" and "censorship" in ways that really could not be wronger. It does not help your argument.

 

[Guerilla]

I sure love the way you deny everything even though everyone -including you- know it's true. Yes, tumblr is mainly a feminist site and there are literally thousands of examples of its insanity: http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction

Keep pretending to be speechless, the rest of the internet isn't though.

Ho ho ho holy cow.

Welp, good luck with that Guerilla. I wish you a long and happy life.

Sarcarm and zero content in your post because I provided the proof that you kept asking for. How surprising... Anyway, goodbye to you too.

That's... that's not how blackmail works.

You keep using these terms like "blackmail" and "censorship" in ways that really could not be wronger. It does not help your argument.

I explained how it's blackmail in post 650. It's not the "holding a gun to your head" blackmail but it still is a subtle form of blackmail.

 

[Don Incognito]

I explained how it's blackmail in post 650.

Yeah, blackmail doesn't work that way either, Guerilla. Not even remotely accurate.

Keep trying, though. Eventually you might hit on the actual definition of "blackmail" or "censorship" just by luck. Stopped clocks, and all that.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sarcarm and zero content in your post because I provided even more proof that you kept asking for. How surprising... Anyway, goodbye to you too.

I'm very sorry that you are under the impression that what you provided was proof that supported your argument.

Also...not so! I wished you a long and happy life. That wasn't just content, that was NICE content.

Keep trying, though. Eventually you might hit on the actual definition of "blackmail" or "censorship" just by luck. Stopped clocks, and all that.

Guerilla thinks Tumblr is a feminist site and provided a Reddit thread as substantiation. Consider the ramifications of that.

You can tell him his definitions are wrong until both of you have long white beards. It's not going to accomplish anything.

 

[CaitSeith]

Is there a game that the feminist have already ruined?

"The Feminist".

I like that. Sounds like a Super-Villain.

She appeared in Powerpuff Girls a couple of times...

Now seriously, is there a game that the feminists have already ruined? I know about someone who modified the NES version of Zelda and Donkey Kong and interchanged the sprites of Mario/Pauline and Link/Zelda (oh! and changed the dialog in his Wind Waker), but those are homebrew hacks and don't count (I think Nintendo even complained about it)

 

[shrekfan246]

Sarcarm and zero content in your post because I provided even more proof that you kept asking for. How surprising... Anyway, goodbye to you too.

I'm very sorry that you are under the impression that what you provided was proof that supported your argument.

Should we tell him that using his logic, Tumblr is also a porn website?

...

Wait, I don't think I want to get involved in this.

 

[Guerilla]

I explained how it's blackmail in post 650.

Yeah, blackmail doesn't work that way either, Guerilla. Not even remotely accurate.

Keep trying, though. Eventually you might hit on the actual definition of "blackmail" or "censorship" just by luck. Stopped clocks, and all that.

I'm not interested in arguing semantics. Blackmail might even be exaggeration, I don't know, but everyone understands the gist of my post. There's a vast difference between suggesting something and constant non-stop whining while throwing serious accusations at developers until they obey. If it's not blackmail whatever it is it's preeeetty close to it.

 

[Colour Scientist]

Sarcarm and zero content in your post because I provided even more proof that you kept asking for. How surprising... Anyway, goodbye to you too.

I'm very sorry that you are under the impression that what you provided was proof that supported your argument.

Should we tell him that using his logic, Tumblr is also a porn website?

That statement is more true than Tumblr is a feminist website. XD

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Should we tell him that using his logic, Tumblr is also a porn website?

And how would you know that, sir? Just what have you been looking at?

I'm not interested in arguing semantics.

Yeah I can understand why.

 

[Muspelheim]

So we agree with each other that feminists have handled this terribly and that the gaming community is justifiably upset with them?

Blackmail is also when you keep the harassment going until the conditions are met, in that way yeah, it kind of is.

Well, a maybe sorta possibly arrangement here and there.

Anita Sarkeesian have not handled her stated mission satisfactory, and many people who fancy themselves feminists (mainly from the dear old Tumblrcave) have been inexcusably rude and unconstructive, bringing nothing but insults to a situation where it was the very least needed. I don't think every feminist on the planet are thus guily by proxy, but I do agree that there is a damn unpleasant group of people answering to that title in certain places.

I do think the gaming community are justified to be angry, but there is an equally unpleasant group in it as well, the antithesis and yet the reflection of the people they're in scuffles with.

The game industry and community has a problem of this nature. But it's being abused by two sides of twats to no good, although it's not beyond a human being's hope that it'll get better as the medium grows. Even if the growing pains look like this.

As for blackmail, it depends on the form of the harassment. If it's just keeping up the complaints in their own videos and blogs, it isn't. If it takes the form of death threats and the like (or complaints constantly shoved under the door of their own home), it could technically be blackmail, I suppose. Of course, death threats seem to be either nutter cohort's prefered way of communicating.

 

[Don Incognito]

I'm not interested in arguing semantics. Blackmail might even be exaggeration, I don't know, but everyone understands the gist of my post.

Actually, no. No I don't. I haven't the faintest idea what sort of coherent point you are trying to make.

People have the right to complain about whatever they want, in whatever way they wish to do it, so long as they break no laws.

No OOOOHHH BIG SCARY feminist group can "censor" or "blackmail" a developer into doing anything. The developer makes whatever business and/or artist decisions they want to make, given the input that they get from the public.

Slow your roll.


Also: tumblr? Not a feminist website. Like whoa.