Is it time for feminists to step off our hobby?

GeneralFungi

New member
Jul 1, 2010
402
0
0
Atmos Duality said:
GeneralFungi said:
Other people enjoying video games doesn't necessarily need to mean less gaming for the 'hardcore'.
But it will, as producers realize that hardcore is less profitable and more niche.
Casual on the other hand, is becoming much easier to profit from, partly because the market is generally less experienced and more naive, but mostly because it's an easier market for new people to enter into.

And you can break those (VERY BROAD) markets down into smaller and smaller pieces, but the same logic applies.

We see this in other media markets.

For example, a recent trend shows more movies are bumping themselves down from an R-rating to a PG-13 rating.
Why? Because PG13 means hitting the teenager market, who are both more gullible than adults and still have cash.

There's actually something of a shortage of R-rated movies in theaters now because the R->PG13 gambit is very commonly done with remakes (which themselves comprise a large share of what is getting made).
Gaming isn't really split up by age in the same way gaming is. It is defined by what kind of games the individual plays rather then how old they are; of course we do have M rated games but that really isn't much of a contributing factor at all.

I just don't feel like the movie market is quite comparable to the gaming market in that way. We have people who start casual then go hardcore, people who are hardcore and decide to go casual, people who only stick to casual and people who have only known hardcore. The lines between what is hardcore and casual is blurrier, and there seems to be varying degrees and games that are "more hardcore" or "more casual" then one another without being entirely devoted. We also have mobile markets, indie markets, mainstream markets and many things in between. Don't even get me started on gaming devices.

There are some parallels to draw between gaming and movies but I don't find this conclusive. I'm not even sure how it relates to feminism, since truthfully there are quite a few people in the feminist crowd who have the gaming habits of being hardcore much to many gamer's disdain. I guess the only thing you could maybe say is that certain casual games, such as farmville and the sims, have adopted very gender unbiased and socially liberal attitudes at a faster rate then triple A, "hardcore blam blam guns boom". But with games like Mass Effect, Saint's Row and Dragon Age that is changing surprisingly fast. Inclusivity is a huge selling point in those games.

Honestly I only mentioned the hardcore because people who claim to be hardcore seem to throw lines in between them and feminists. What they don't realize that all feminsts are trying to do (and failing in some regards) is to improve the hobby they love, something that only a casual observer really wouldn't care about at all. Seems rather hardcore to me, don't you think?
 

Atmos Duality

New member
Mar 3, 2010
8,473
0
0
GeneralFungi said:
Gaming isn't really split up by age in the same way gaming is.
My brain just divided that line by zero.
It was an enlightening experience.

(I assume you meant "movies")

It is defined by what kind of games the individual plays rather then how old they are; of course we do have M rated games but that really isn't much of a contributing factor at all.
Actually, M ratings are an almost exact analog to the PG13 rating here. Adult-ratings (A-rating) are essentially the combined R and X equivalents and thus are considered HIGHLY undesirable by publishers because it limits who their game can be sold to (or will be bought by, depending).

Though my point in this is that demographics and especially trends drive production.
When one demographic gains favor, it comes at the expense of another.
Why? Exposure. Even when the entire market grows, exposure is the element that separates the big breadwinners from the wannabees.

To use another example in film/TV:
I'd love to see a great sci-fi or space opera show (like Farscape or Firefly) get made again, but because of the wild success of Twilight and the tween revolution, instead I see two dozen supernatural/vampire shows getting green-lit.

Was there a concentrated movement? Did Stephanie Meyer pen Twilight specifically to kill Sci-fi? Obviously not.
(she saved The Host for that.... I jest!...mostly)
Sci-fi as a genre ran its course and is now in something of a slump.

Honestly I only mentioned the hardcore because people who claim to be hardcore seem to throw lines in between them and feminists. What they don't realize that all feminsts are trying to do (and failing in some regards) is to improve the hobby they love, something that only a casual observer really wouldn't care about at all. Seems rather hardcore to me, don't you think?
Yeah, there's always a few nutbags in the hardcore.
I actually liked hardcore games. Especially the mechanics and challenges for a good while (until real like beckoned).
I know the "do-or-die" mentality behind it; meeting challenges is a must, though that bullheaded determination can be just as much of a nuisance as a benefit.

The only other comment I have to add is that I seriously doubt ALL feminists are trying to improve the hobby.

And I say that as someone who doesn't see any inherent value OR threat from "feminism" to gaming, simply because there are several feminist angles (they aren't a hive mind).
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
nuclearday said:
One goal of critical analysis in media is to raise awareness of the issues that you care about. This doesn't need to mean political or activist causes, either. As my above example, if I was a professional critic I could write about games that failed or succeeded in a notable manner in terms of proper pacing and narrative structure. I would do so through an examination of past games by way of illustration and applying and constructing proper terminology to give others the tools to properly discuss these issues in an intelligible manner.
Reviewing games isn't political activism and it's not about awareness, you're not making a social statement, it's just a damn videogame, it's actually reviewing the contents of the game in terms of entertainment, innovation, graphics and so on. We don't need the indignation of these pseudo-intellectual "journalists" who think they're God's gift to morally inferior gamers (ex-gamers, we don't use that term anymore because they said so) and have to educate us.



(For another example if I really cared about the guns in my games feeling authentic I would wish to raise awareness about that issue and provide the terms and metrics by which I measured how authentic and accurate in-game guns were. ie "I really wish the gun would do this when I fired it, and here are some other considerations that if you don't take into account already, then maybe you should in the future.")

So, if positive portrayal of women in video games is something I care about, how would I go about that? By raising awareness and education about the issue and providing relevant terminology to the discussion at large in order to give developers and fans the tools to move forward.

From a feminist standpoint we have someone who has attempted to do that. I don't find the videos particularly engaging and I think she stretches some points too far; and in other cases I think she's proving a hypothesis regardless of where the research my lead.

But everyone's so up each others' asses about what kind of person she is and what viewpoints she might or might not have that any interesting discussion to be had goes by the wayside.

What I also think gets lost in the mix is, as I'd said earlier, mistaking the trees as the forest.

Let's go back to the gun example. Maybe I've found a game that has really bad sound effects for their guns. But otherwise it's a great game. Just because it has the one flaw in an area that I care about doesn't mean I think the whole game is crap, necessarily (though if they're so awful it might be a distractingly negative quality.)

I think this issue is in a Catch 22, really. I feel we're at a point where I don't see many games coming out today that are in and of themselves offensive from a feminist point of view. If a game falls short in terms of characterization I feel it's more likely a matter of ignorance on the developer's part or a general failing than a deliberate attempt to sabotage.

The issue isn't the tree, it's the forest. I think there ought to be more evergreens in the forest, and maybe not so many ferns. But that doesn't mean I think every fern is evil.

But... you can't really point to pervasive issues without pointing out examples and using existing games to draw from. But if I were to pick a game to illustrate a point, that doesn't mean I think the game itself is innately evil for having that failing.
And I repeat, if Sarkeesian had offered only observation it would be fine. But it doesn't stop there with feminists, does it? Throwing one despicable accusation after another and claiming that videogames corrupt the youth is not OK.

But I like your example. Any good reviewer or journalist can certainly talk about the gun noises if it gets annoying. He or she should definitely NOT spam us though by injecting their annoying fucking ideology by for example whining that there should be more guns and that developers are actively trying to influence the youth against guns by purposely muffling the beautiful sound of an AK-47. Or if he's anti-gun whine that there are too many guns in the game and in videogames in general that turn people violent because media influence people to kill.

Can you see the VAST difference between a good reviewer and a pseudo-intellectual douche being annoying? There's a time and a place to talk politics and it's certainly not by turning a hobby into battleground of shitty gender wars.
 

nuclearday

New member
Sep 24, 2009
35
0
0
Guerilla said:
Reviewing games isn't political activism and it's not about awareness, you're not making a social statement, it's just a damn videogame, it's actually reviewing the contents of the game in terms of entertainment, innovation, graphics and so on. We don't need the indignation of these pseudo-intellectual "journalists" who think they're God's gift to morally inferior gamers (ex-gamers, we don't use that term anymore because they said so) and have to educate us.
That's your definition.

I happen to feel video games are as important a media source as any other. I don't feel there's a need to overly politicize the industry, either - but I don't feel pointing out flaws is the same thing as political grandstanding. Maybe some people do that, sure. But I can only speak for myself and defend my own viewpoints - I don't speak for "The Feminist Movement," and as such can't defend against accusations targeted at such a nebulous foe. If you want to shadowbox, fine, but there's not much for me to respond to if that's how you want the conversation to go.

We don't need people who think they're better than everyone else, sure. Not a good thing, nor do we need people who think they're "above" the industry they talk about.
Guerilla said:
But I like your example. Any good reviewer or journalist can certainly talk about the gun noises if it gets annoying. He or she should definitely NOT spam us though by injecting their annoying fucking ideology by for example whining that there should be more guns and that developers are actively trying to influence the youth against guns by purposely muffling the beautiful sound of an AK-47. Or if he's anti-gun whine that there are too many guns in the game and in videogames in general that turn people violent because media influence people to kill.
Not actually a lot of people clamoring for more women in games, though. Not an actual viewpoint being actively espoused by the people you argue against, generally. Sarkeesian made a whole series of videos (of which, as I said a couple of times now, are of spurious accuracy,) specifically focusing on the quality of the writing for female characters and common (or indeed in many cases not so common - I do feel she came up with a bunch of terms and then in many cases tried to shoehorn examples to fit an established definition) cliches that are used. Quality is different than quantity.

I haven't yet seen the "we have to have more female characters in videogames no matter what" video. But I haven't watched all of them, maybe I missed that one.

Also a difference between claims that the industry is "actively" trying to spread misogyny and claims that various negative cliches are so ingrained in our culture from past sources of media that it might be useful to point out their use in this one. You're just hyperbolizing the example I used, and I've already tried to explain the difference between repeated use of common cliches and it's effect on normalizing thoughts and behavior versus the (flawed) concept that media actively influences specific actions. Correlation is not causality, we're all aware of that.

But I'm again talking more about other peoples' beliefs and opinions than my own. Kind of done doing that, now. I have proffered my own viewpoint on this matter, but we keep ending up discussing other people.
 

Guerilla

New member
Sep 7, 2014
253
0
0
nuclearday said:
Not actually a lot of people clamoring for more women in games, though. Not an actual viewpoint being actively espoused by the people you argue against, generally. Sarkeesian made a whole series of videos (of which, as I said a couple of times now, are of spurious accuracy,) specifically focusing on the quality of the writing for female characters and common (or indeed in many cases not so common - I do feel she came up with a bunch of terms and then in many cases tried to shoehorn examples to fit an established definition) cliches that are used. Quality is different than quantity.

I haven't yet seen the "we have to have more female characters in videogames no matter what" video. But I haven't watched all of them, maybe I missed that one.

Also a difference between claims that the industry is "actively" trying to spread misogyny and claims that various negative cliches are so ingrained in our culture from past sources of media that it might be useful to point out their use in this one. You're just hyperbolizing the example I used, and I've already tried to explain the difference between repeated use of common cliches and it's effect on normalizing thoughts and behavior versus the (flawed) concept that media actively influences specific actions. Correlation is not causality, we're all aware of that.

But I'm again talking more about other peoples' beliefs and opinions than my own. Kind of done doing that, now. I have proffered my own viewpoint on this matter, but we keep ending up discussing other people.
I already proved that Sarkeesian, the main feminist voice in videogames has claimed that videogames are spreading misogyny. The same has been done by kotaku, Polygon and their ilk. Look dude, I can't waste an hour every time to provide even more evidence that feminists keep spreading bullshit about videogames and then have you guys just move the goalposts again and dismissing everything I just proved as isolated incidents or not representative of you even though you're consciously part of the movement.

A feminist blogger with millions of views and MANY feminists defending her is not an isolated incident. Feminist "journalists" like Leigh Alexander that spread the exact same bullshit and worse is not an isolated incident. Kotaku and the entire Gawker clickbaiting shithole that have turned feminist "controversies" into a lucrative business which btw feminists have made what it is, is not an isolated incident. Enough with this hypocrisy, either join us then to fight these people or stop looking the other way every time they do shit like this [http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/comments/2b4gky/kotaku_takes_down_patricia_hernandezs_piece_on/] and then when criticized as a movement acting as if these people aren't part of it.
 

Netrigan

New member
Sep 29, 2010
1,924
0
0
GeneralFungi said:
Honestly I only mentioned the hardcore because people who claim to be hardcore seem to throw lines in between them and feminists. What they don't realize that all feminsts are trying to do (and failing in some regards) is to improve the hobby they love, something that only a casual observer really wouldn't care about at all. Seems rather hardcore to me, don't you think?
Sarkeesian is probably the first genuine outsider/casual to come in with a dedicated feminist critique of the medium, but there's been a casual feminist critique going on for a very long time. Whether it be the debate over Battle Thongs, Gigantic Floppy Boobs, Jiggle Physics, FemShep not getting the respect she deserves, no playable female character in GTA V... the treatment of women in video games has been a pretty big concern for well over a decade. I'd say closer to 20 as Duke Nukem 3D and Shadow Warrior both got a lot of well-deserved flack for being sexist and juvenile... and even before that there were those horrible FMV games which generally got a lot of "please stop" from everyone including gamers.

So it's nothing new, it's part of a much larger cultural conversation that's been going on since at least the 70s when Feminism hit the mainstream.

Which is why I kind of get a Clubhouse vibe off of objecting to this sort of thing, like video games are some special bastion which should never be touched by the likes of Anita Sarkeesian, when it's pretty much a miracle this didn't happen long ago.

Personally, I think the way to deal with it is to actively listen to the major criticisms in more mainstream fare (there's really no reason an Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty should have anything really sexist in it... and for the most part, neither do), but if you want to cut loose on a Duke Nukem or Grand Theft Auto, just own it. I'm so very tempted to write up a blog entry on Crank 2, which is the most gleefully sexist/racist/homophobic/misanthropic thing ever. So much so, I don't think the makers want anyone to be offended by it... but they're daring you every step of the way to be offended.
 

Netrigan

New member
Sep 29, 2010
1,924
0
0
Guerilla said:
Reviewing games isn't political activism and it's not about awareness, you're not making a social statement, it's just a damn videogame, it's actually reviewing the contents of the game in terms of entertainment, innovation, graphics and so on. We don't need the indignation of these pseudo-intellectual "journalists" who think they're God's gift to morally inferior gamers (ex-gamers, we don't use that term anymore because they said so) and have to educate us.

And I repeat, if Sarkeesian had offered only observation it would be fine. But it doesn't stop there with feminists, does it? Throwing one despicable accusation after another and claiming that videogames corrupt the youth is not OK.
Firstly, she's not reviewing games, she's critiquing them and criticism is a very old art form and it was originally designed to go well beyond the simple question of "is it good or not". It's often about trying to figure out what the piece of art is deliberately or inadvertently saying and exploring that.

Let's take Citizen Kane. Review. Thumbs up. Great movie, great performances, great technical innovation. But a critique. Lots of good stuff, such as exploring how it's the birth of modern cinema. Or taking a step back into the real world and exploring the real-world controversy of fictionalizing a real man's life in such an insulting manner. Or exploring the fluidity of identity, one of the themes of the movie. There's so many great discussions you can have about the movie that have little to nothing to do with how good the movie is.

If you want to go into more social realms, Birth of a Nation or Triumph of the Will or Atlas Shrugged.

Want to go Pop Culture, a discussion on the changing social morality of James Bond. How did a movie series go from Bond not being able to punch a woman in "Diamonds Are Forever" (even though two women were trying to beat him to death) to a full-on fight scenes with women. The notion that being able to punch a woman (something most of us were taught you should never, ever do) is in many ways a natural outgrowth of Feminism. There's a great subject there. Are women the victims of violence here or are they considered equals?

And I think asking how media affects us is a valid question. The notion that we'll do something well outside of social norms because we saw it on the TV is pretty ridiculous, but we do use media to figure out what is considered acceptable. We do emulate the socially acceptable behavior we see. Say for instance, what effect is the tendency in commercials to portray men as idiots affecting how women see men?

As I've been saying a lot, I believe in the Free Market of Ideas. If someone has a rubbish idea, then the odds are that idea isn't going to get much traction. If someone has a good idea and they can convince people of its worth, then that idea can take root and transform how we portray ourselves in media. The great bulk of critiques are next to worthless, but the ones which aren't make the process worthwhile. Not only in the sense of bettering society, but in providing new takes for old stories. A better understanding of grief can make a revenge story much more poignant. A better understanding of women can make female characters more interesting. Removing the social stigma of sexuality can lead to all sorts of wonderful things like more sex for everyone.

And it doesn't mean we can't cut loose. Forty years of Feminism Critiques of Hollywood and Crank 2 still happened, and Fuck Yeah for that.
 

runequester

New member
Aug 6, 2010
79
0
0
It's astounding to me that we both want to believe that EA and the likes are uncaring behemoths that don't care what their audience thinks AND that a shadowy cabal of evil women can totally control the industry.

Which one are we supposed to be scared of this week?
 

nuclearday

New member
Sep 24, 2009
35
0
0
Guerilla said:
A feminist blogger with millions of views and MANY feminists defending her is not an isolated incident. Feminist "journalists" like Leigh Alexander that spread the exact same bullshit and worse is not an isolated incident. Kotaku and the entire Gawker clickbaiting shithole that have turned feminist "controversies" into a lucrative business which btw feminists have made what it is, is not an isolated incident. Enough with this hypocrisy, either join us then to fight these people or stop looking the other way every time they do shit like this [http://www.reddit.com/r/TumblrInAction/comments/2b4gky/kotaku_takes_down_patricia_hernandezs_piece_on/] and then when criticized as a movement acting as if these people aren't part of it.
That's a fair opinion but I personally feel a more constructive avenue for discussion is to voice my own opinions as well. There's a lot of asshole on either side of this thing. I don't equate everyone who disagrees with extremist feminism with all the harassment and abuse that goes on, or insist that if you don't agree with me that you preface every post with a disclaimer crying out against those actions.

I feel I have a somewhat more moderate view on the "pro-feminism" side of the spectrum, and I feel like at this point it's important that the "silent majority" start speaking up more often. The loudest voices right now on either side are too far in either extreme to be taken seriously at this point, but I truly believe that there's more common ground to be found for most gamers out there. I also don't think it'd be fair for me to counter every converse point by pointing to popular misogynistic voices and countering their arguments instead of the post I'm quoting.

Assholes suck and they do more harm than good. The poor actions made in the name of feminism are harmful and not acceptable. Two wrongs don't make a right, I was always taught.

As I've said in the past, I actually think this has been a good year for feminism in games. Quite a few well-written characters (as I don't believe the only "proper" way to portray a female character is as an empowered hero any more than I think every male character should be one-note caricatures or token participants either.) And more focus should be on the positive examples.

I feel that if videogames are an art form, then art history and critical thinking is important to it as a medium (I come from a classical art background, I think art education, history, and critical analysis is important for encouraging educated conversation about any medium.) There are many screens through which to view a media, and feminism is one.

For me, a feminist view of videogames does not boil down to placing every game in an arbitrarily binary category. Placing every game that makes use of a cliche into the "sexism bin" is a simplistic answer to a complicated and layered question. I feel it's more useful to explore each game individually with what tools and terminology is available. And unfortunately there isn't a lot of that going around right now.

It is more about quality of writing than equal quantity of every possible character, I think.

I also feel that it's just as overly simplistic to label every character that doesn't live up to a feminist utopian ideal of a perfect woman as sexist or expect a sudden sea change in the way games are written. I don't even think there's no place for less-than-ideal portrayals of women in games. To me, the importance (from a creator's standpoint) is self-awareness and ownership.

ie, if you want to make a game with a plot that revolves around a damsel in distress, then do so. But at least be aware you're doing it and take ownership of the cliche you're using. Like... ah hell, what was that game that stirred up some controversy earlier in the year? The 2D fighting game with the really over-the-top anatomy and the witch character that was like 90% boobs? I don't think that was actually a particularly offensive game - the guy clearly was intentional in his character design and knew what he was doing and what audience he was aiming for. I don't think that's entirely problematic. I think maybe it should be the exception to the rule, but I can't decry that specific game for being something I don't think every game should be.

Extreme "men are scum" feminism is a bad thing and shouldn't be tolerated or defended, and any action of abuse or harassment is unacceptable regardless of the victim or transgressor. I wish Anita Sarkeesian hadn't ended up as the de facto figurehead for all things feminist or the "voice of the movement." I'll bring that up at our next weekly meeting.

In the meantime I have my own views on matters that I'm providing for discussion and dissent. I really do feel like the extremists don't represent the typical views or that the conversation in gaming culture should focus on them - and that's not going to happen unless people start espousing their own views.
Netrigan said:
Personally, I think the way to deal with it is to actively listen to the major criticisms in more mainstream fare (there's really no reason an Assassin's Creed or Call of Duty should have anything really sexist in it... and for the most part, neither do), but if you want to cut loose on a Duke Nukem or Grand Theft Auto, just own it. I'm so very tempted to write up a blog entry on Crank 2, which is the most gleefully sexist/racist/homophobic/misanthropic thing ever. So much so, I don't think the makers want anyone to be offended by it... but they're daring you every step of the way to be offended.
Those are good points.

I especially agree with you about Crank 2. That's the sort of self-awareness I was talking about, really. They knew what movie they were trying to make and went about doing so. I wouldn't want every single movie to be like that, but there's nothing objectionable about that movie as viewed by itself.

Kind of why I don't worry about whether or not Saints Row is sexist or not, or "properly" portraying women. I actually haven't played beyond the first game (planned to, but other games keep getting in the way,) so I can't comment too much on it - but the feeling I got from those games was that they were intended as over-the-top parodies not to be taken seriously.

I'd rather a developer or whatever possess self-awareness of the game they're making, take ownership of the content they put in, and be capable of explaining their position and justifying their actions than the converse.
 

Netrigan

New member
Sep 29, 2010
1,924
0
0
Netrigan said:
but if you want to cut loose on a Duke Nukem or Grand Theft Auto, just own it.
You know what, I take this back.

Grand Theft Auto is the absolute worst type of Politically Correct garbage. The PC bullshit that tries to masquerade as an offensive anti-PC parody, but takes great pains in reminding you their politics are all in the right place.

Examples: In GTA IV, they introduce a Perfect Good Girl. Perhaps the only nice character in the history of GTA IV, but, hey, we're totally not sexist even if we don't understand what people mean by "give us some interesting female characters."

We're really serious when we say No Drinking & Driving. Also in GTA IV, the moment you start driving in a car while drunk you get a Wanted Level, because in a game where running over pedestrians is practically a sport, we don't want to endorse unsafe driving.

We're really against torture. So after a really uncomfortable scene where you have to torture a guy over the objections of another character, Rockstar wants to make sure you know they're really against torture, so Trevor, the most immoral bastard you'll ever meet, gets used as a mouthpiece for the game's writers, who really, really, really don't want you to think they're bad people.

Also another Trevor moment, after an over-the-top parody of the Border Patrol, featuring a non-American who can't speak English chasing after various Mexican stereotypes; our fearless writers have to underline how they're totally not racist.

Grow a fucking pair of balls, Rockstar.
 

Maximum Bert

New member
Feb 3, 2013
2,149
0
0
Gethsemani said:
Maximum Bert said:
*snip* for space
So then you agree with the idea that gamers shouldn't be putting forth ideas to developers about which features they want added, removed or modified in the games that developer is making? Because that is exactly the idea that you are arguing in favor of right now, that we shouldn't be asking for more weapons in the new CoD, we shouldn't be complaining about the removal of the large multiplayer games from Madden 15 or asking for more skins in League of Legends. Asking for better representation of women is no different from any of the other suggestions that gamers and consumers of games give all the time on various message boards, in discussions or in e-mails to developers.

Some people on the internet asking game developers to consider how they write and include female characters in games is not anywhere near restrictions. It is somewhere between criticism and discourse and both are perfectly normal.
Well it is different in a way asking for more weapons or a game mode is very specific asking for better representation of women or better writing is less so.

Im all for people putting forth ideas thats all fine the trouble is when you expect people to follow them. Also although it doesnt always turn out that way I believe most in the industry dont set out to make a bad (or soul less is probably a better word) product sure some are just out for a quick buck and some are most likely dictated to about exactly what they can and cannot do by some suit.

Characters are given the consideration that the devs think needs to be given to them and are portrayed in a way they believe will fit the game at least in an ideal example anyway so the point about them considering how they portray women or any character is moot it has been considered in the context of what they are making its just they may have gone a different way from what you would like. So you could quite rightly say well consider it from my (as in your) point of view and explain your stance which would be fine but equally valid would be them saying but from our point of view we want this and in the end they are making the game thats the breaks they can do what they like.

As I said before I am not against so called `better`(a word that can mean different things to different people) representation of women in games if you decided to make a game based around how you think women should be represented in a game (and there are many games and types of games to think about here as well) I would be all for your right to do so applaud you even but I wouldnt expect every person to follow suit or even anyone although if they wanted to then fine like I said each to their own.

Criticism is fine but with any criticism you are going to get naysayers its up to the people making the product to what goes.
 

Nopenahnuhuh

New member
Nov 17, 2009
114
0
0
I wouldn't say they need to "step out" as much as they should stop trying to brute force their views to the point where artists need to censor themselves in order to please some PC mindset. I'm all for equality but when you throw a shit fit because an artist depicted a character with a bare midriff it's time to reevaluate your approach.
 

runequester

New member
Aug 6, 2010
79
0
0
DJJ66 said:
I wouldn't say they need to "step out" as much as they should stop trying to brute force their views to the point where artists need to censor themselves in order to please some PC mindset. I'm all for equality but when you throw a shit fit because an artist depicted a character with a bare midriff it's time to reevaluate your approach.
Could you name any recorded instances where this has actually happened or are we doing the "wouldn't it be bad if.." thing?
 

aliengmr

New member
Sep 16, 2014
88
0
0
DJJ66 said:
I wouldn't say they need to "step out" as much as they should stop trying to brute force their views to the point where artists need to censor themselves in order to please some PC mindset. I'm all for equality but when you throw a shit fit because an artist depicted a character with a bare midriff it's time to reevaluate your approach.
Criticism =/= Censorship

And Censorship can NOT legally happen.

And when did sex stop selling? Not sure how people get the impression that suddenly sexy girls in games are going away.

Let people say what they want. If someone tries to force a developer to censor their work, go fucking nuts, I'll join you.