Is Ridley Scott's Biblical Epic Exodus Whitewashing Ancient Egypt?

[Super Cyborg]

I just find it interesting that movies that are based on the Bible are even being made, and this is coming from a Christian. In a most of the areas that movies are big, a huge population doesn't care and don't follow the religion, so it seems weird that they would try to make a movie out of anything from the Bible if they are assuming just regular Christians will. It seems like if you want to do this kind of movie, you might want to detach from the biblical portions? I really don't know how this stuff works, but I don't plan on seeing it.

As far as the casting goes, just seems like they wanted to get big names to hype the movie. I've never cared about the race of the actors, but I do see why a number do talk about it, and that there needs to be more diversity.

 

[WiseBass]

Yes. That is exactly what he is saying, and is no way a ridiculous exaggeration or a straw-man argument. "Get the best actor you can who actually looks the part" now means "Just grab some random black guys, whatever."

Exactly. I love the butt-hurt defensiveness in his response - you just know he would be whining up a storm about historical inaccuracy if somebody cast a black man as Robert E. Lee in a Civil War movie.

I also hate the Idris Elba Heimdall comparison. As if fictionalized aliens pretending to be fictionalized versions of gods inspired by a real mythology are somehow equivalent to an actual historical figure, even if the latter is going to be a fictionalized portrayal in a mythological story. (not going to argue with believers over whether or not they think Exodus was true).

And I'm willing to bet you any amount of money that Christian Bale, at the very least, did not have to work hard to get this part.

No kidding. I bet getting him on board along with Weaver and Kingsley were part of the reason the film got greenlit.

I think the pedigree in the film will guarantee it to be a "good" movie. Putting that aside and focusing on the tone and racism, here's the problem - the largest audience for this film will be white middle american religious folk who still think the founding fathers were all Christians.

The fact that it sells doesn't make it any less wrong, you know.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

Personally, I think modern society is reading too much in to things like this. I mean if you are making an Oscar-bait movie, you want the best talent you can find. Statistically, for movies on a scale such as this, you won't be able to hire enough Oscar talent level worthy actors to fill the roles without there being something of disjointed disparity. Seemingly making all the lower class and/or villains black people; Is it racism, affirmative action forcing you to hire a certain number of ethnic actors for a project, resentment at being forced to hire or a combination of all three?

See, we built this politically correct world, and now we have to live in it.

 

[bjj hero]

So what you're saying is, screw any of those white actors who really want the job and work super hard at it, just get some random black guys because that would be less racist.

Awesome.

And the Black/middle eastern/African actors who suit the part and work super hard? No, well replace them with random white guys because replacing everyone in the story of colour with white people is less racist.


Turns out ancient Egypt looks like middle America with more make up and less Jesus.

Awesome.

 

[Vedli]

im just wondering but if a Norse god can be black why can't moses be white ?...

why does this one have to be what he supposedly "should" be...but not the other.

seriously people were castigated for suggesting things like Norse gods "should" all be white.

so why not here with this ? what exactly is the difference ?

don't get me wrong i know what the arguments for and against are in both cases.

i just can't see how someone reconciles both of them at the same time without indulging in cognitive bias.

dw i can accept cognitive bias, because we all have it in some respects...
but only if it's honestly admitted....otherwise people are openly peddling hypocrisy.

oh and PS 76 year old English film making legends don't give a toss what "millennials" were watching on TNT in 1996 or whatever.

"media" is not amassed library everyone reads through the same even if that is the framing device some crtics like to use because they, and in all probably they alone, look at and study it in that way.

Bob already provided an answer for this http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/3183-Skin-Deep
But the long and the short of is the legacy of slavery and institutionalized racism makes it an acceptable double standard.

 

[C.S.Strowbridge]

im just wondering but if a Norse god can be black why can't moses be white ?...

Because having a black Norse god increases diversity. This is an important difference.

 

[Netrigan]

im just wondering but if a Norse god can be black why can't moses be white ?...

I think the question many people are asking is "when will they let him be Jewish?"

And while I'm adult enough to know there's more reasons than simply race going on in these race swapping situations (like super-star Will Smith is getting white roles for something other than box office draw, same reason Ben Affleck got to play a Hispanic man in Argo), the part which makes me laugh are the reactions from various people and boards.

There's one place I used to visit where any white character who got played by a black actor was bitched about in mile long threads by the host of the site. As they're comic fans who ***** about any deviation from the look of the characters, then there's clearly more going on than just race here.

But these same people don't seem to notice when Ra's (Asian or Middle Eastern) or Bane (Hispanic) get played by very white actors, much less bitterly complain about it. They're convinced people would be up in arms if this sort of thing happens, but constantly dismiss the numerous examples of white actors playing minority roles from the last decade. Somehow I'm supposed to believe that there's something intrinsically white about Perry White and changing his race would realistically cause the character to be changed in many ways (yes, they argue realism in super-hero movie whenever it suits them), but the real world black woman whose story was made into a movie gets played by a really white woman (the movie I talking about is the one where a woman hits a homeless man and he gets stuck in her windshield) and you can hear crickets.

So it's a case of the appearing and disappearing VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE, which only happens to appear when the character getting race-swapped in white, but magically doesn't appear when the character getting race-swapped is black, Hispanic, Middle Eastern, or Asian.

 

[NemotheElvenPanda]

I'm more bothered by how they made the statuary look like something out of ancient Greece in terms of the faces than how all the main actors are white and that all the extras are black, which granted still has its own problems. I get it that most of the people who want to play the leads just happen to be white. That's not their fault, or maybe not even Hollywood's fault. However it is a problem when you have a entire culture changed in a way to appeal to a audience that probably doesn't know anything about Egypt past what the Bible says, and some figures in popular culture like Cleopatra. Even the movies in the silver and golden ages in Hollywood had the decency to at least try and get the sets looking as accurate as they could from what they knew at the time. We literally have 3D images of old Egyptian statues with how they were carved and painted, so there's no excuse not to misrepresent them. Rome 2 Total War did a better job than this, and they're set in a time when Egypt was being run by Europeans.

I'm a major in history, and I can't help but not be overly critical of these kinds of details. I've studied ancient Egypt since I was able to read anything more than three words on a page, and it really annoys me with this kind of dishonesty. This movie is not like 300 where people can suspend reality because the movie is based on a comic which is based on a semi-accurate historical event, but people are going to take this in a different light because it's a popular story American children are raised to know. For example, many people still think that the Hebrews built the pyramids even though that's been disproved multiple times. Hell, there isn't even much evidence for a mass slavery of Hebrews in general. I'm really tired of media painting ancient civilizations as something they weren't, like Mayans and Aztecs being bloodthirsty savages or the Celts as dirty, stinking barbarians. For me this is just a issue of intellectual dishonesty and not racism, though I can see how it can be interpreted that way. You can depict a popular legend honestly and still have it be a wide success like Troy. It wasn't only just fun to watch Brad Pitt go Leonidas on Trojans, but he did it in a way that was as true to the source material and the time period it was in, even though the mythological aspects of the movie were removed.

 

[UberPubert]

I understand your pain, but-

It wasn't only just fun to watch Orlando Bloom go Leonidas on Trojans, but he did it in a way that was as true to the source material and the time period it was in, even though the mythological aspects of the movie were removed.

Orlando Bloom was playing as Paris, and he did only two things: Take Helen, and shoot Achilles in the heel, who you may be thinking of, and who was played by Brad Pitt.

We all have our own nitpicks, eh?

 

[ForumSafari]

im just wondering but if a norse god can be black why can't moses be white ?...

why does this one have to be what he supposedly should be...but not the other.

Because there are about 20 thousand films starring white guys and 20 starring black guys.

Stop pretending this is a level playing feild.

You do know that you only think this because you live in a white people country right? Naturally white people countries consume and produce white people media but if you ever look at Nigerian cinema you will find tens of thousands of films containing not just black stars, but thousands of films including only black people in any role whatsoever. Same with India, China, Japan...turns out that all cultures produce films like it.

TL;DR: World cinema and TV makes the ethnic mix in Western films look like the god-damn Federation.

 

[Lictor Face]

I miss the good old days when we judged movies based on whether they are good or not, and not racial makeup of their cast. What's with the sudden wave of moral majority and social "rightness" anyway?

Hey I'm all for equal representation, within REASONABLE boundaries.

There is getting a skilled white actor in order to represent a role well. And then there is getting a decidedly less skilled black actor to represent a role, not on acting chops, but on skin color. Because naturally, that is what makes good films good.

Accurate portrayal of skin color. Definitely not acting.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

So now we are moaning about movies based on ancient egypt now? End of the day its not about race, its about money. When your producing a movie with a huge budget they need big names in the lead roles. An how do we know some black actors were approached and either wernt good enough for the role or were busy doing something else or plain not interested in the role? An why cant those white actors be the best for those roles? Thats the same argument that comes up when a black is used in a white role like Heimdall or Kingpin (and both where played awesomely). Though Johnny Depp as Tonto was terrible - seriously, the way he delivered those lines were terrible and insulting. Problem is this argument only works one way, if there was a white actor playing Blade, people would go berserk. Who gives a crap as long as the movie is good. If it sucks it doesnt matter how many black actors you add to it. If the argument for movies as art is true then people need to let Ridley make the best movie he can with the best actors in those roles. But as usual people will moan, do nothing about it and forget all about it by next week.

Sam L Jackson as Moses - "Let my people go mother fucker"

 

[Fdzzaigl]

I thought it was sort of a consensus that ancient Egypt had a whole variety of skin colors, at least many of their drawings and carvings suggest a whole slew of different cultures coming into contact with each other through trade over the Nile, without racist attitudes. The black Nubians were also generally in high regard.

From all possible skin variations in ancient Egypt, pure white caucasians were probably the least likely to appear in large quantities.

It's not needed to portray things completely realistic and there is room for all sorts of actors. But it would be nice to at least see a little variation, when the setting itself really allows and even asks for that.

 

[Albino Boo]

I sent a link of the trailer to my Egyptian friend. I didn't say anything but, hey look they're doing an Exodus movie.

The first thing she said to me was "Why is Christian Bale playing Moses?" Then she said "Why is Sigourney Weaver playing an ancient Egyptian queen?" Then I told her Ramses is being played by an Australian dude with spray tan.

I was laughing so hard, I had tears in my eyes. Of course, she didn't think it was as funny as I thought it was.

It's just hilarious that in the year 2014, with the internet and the whole world watching, Hollywood still tries to pull this crap.

And the Black/middle eastern/African actors who suit the part and work super hard? No, well replace them with random white guys because replacing everyone in the story of colour with white people is less racist.


Turns out ancient Egypt looks like middle America with more make up and less Jesus.

Awesome.

Err so these two jewish man are too white to Moses

The most likely candidate for the Pharaoh in when Exodus possibly happened was Ramses the great. This is him

Note the red hair. Its your contention that a man of european origin is too white to play a man with red hair.

 

[Darmani]

Considering that this [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameses_II#mediaviewer/File:RamsesIIEgypt.jpg] is what Rameses II looked like (assuming the statue creators actually tried to capture his likeness), I think a black actor to play him would have been the best choice.

I mean, come on. This is the Moses story - everyone's already expecting that the people in a movie about it would look either Middle Eastern or African. You don't have to white-wash it simply because you're too lazy to find actors/actresses who more look the part, and you especially don't need to selectively white-wash the good guys.

I mean c'mon Cheat use modern egyptians. I mean, as pointed out, its more complex then "egyptians are black"

Man Geo came in swinging for this alot.

Mind I'm not going to say Bale didn't work for a part. Just ya know uhm..Black Christian Bale likely has as well with less scope or ability to succeed and here is a reasonable oppurtunity for him to show his jobs.
Again like said middle easterners and africans. Mediterreans with all their diverse and strong features!!! Cheat and use makeup on hispanics. Hell make Ramses a Weasley just so long as his mom and dad are Rosario dawson and some dude with auburn hair/fair skin. Moses who at the least is ancient jewish will certainly not be Bale in features and all. What about Sayid? or one of the brothers from Once Upon A Time in Wonderland?

 

[Albino Boo]

Considering that this [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rameses_II#mediaviewer/File:RamsesIIEgypt.jpg] is what Rameses II looked like (assuming the statue creators actually tried to capture his likeness), I think a black actor to play him would have been the best choice.

I mean, come on. This is the Moses story - everyone's already expecting that the people in a movie about it would look either Middle Eastern or African. You don't have to white-wash it simply because you're too lazy to find actors/actresses who more look the part, and you especially don't need to selectively white-wash the good guys.

This is Ramses II.

Note the red hair. Its your contention that a man of european origin is too white to play a man with red hair. Ancient Egyptian statues followed very strict conventions and there is very little variation in appearance for most of 2000 years of its existence. Take this statue

This is a statue of the Pharaoh Hatshepsut, who happened to be a woman.

 

[maxben]

One important point that Bob doesn't address (at least, not directly), is that the Egyptian Emperors were pretty much white. The ones we mostly associate with ancient Egypt is the Ptolemaic dynasty, named after Ptolemy I, a Macedonian general of Alexander the Great; so, while they are geographically Africans, ethnically, the higher circles were Greek descendants. Combine that with a lot of inbreeding happening in those years (with brothers getting married and having children considered mostly natural within royalty), and we can infer that those traits were passed on all the way down to Cleopatra.

So, this is less an example of Hollywood whitewashing an African Empire's family, and more about they actually getting it right, at least in this case.

Of course, that is mostly about the Pharaoh and his family... The rest of Egypt was as racially diverse as it could be expected of an Empire near the intersection of many other ethnically diverse empires.

Yes, but the Potelmics as you noted were post-Alexander. Egypt had a loooooong history before them, and the Pharaohs then were mixed. In the Old Kingdom, their line was native Egyptian (whatever colour that was, people are still arguing). But in the New Kingdom, some of them (the 12th Dynasty) were Nubian (which were more likely black African or mixed black African, ancient Egyptian), others were Berber, while other were Semetic people from the Levant. In the New Kingdom we again saw a mixture of Egyptian Pharaohs and Nubian Pharaohs. It is possible that in that period, however, the people had mixed so much that you couldn't tell an Egyptian from a Nubian (some claim that). The Greeks only showed up afterwards and had nothing to do with Exodus.

 

[Coreless]

Hasn't Hollywood been doing this for ages now? I can't think of a single bible historic epic that had actors with any kind of lineage to the actual region that the story takes place in? On a more hilarious note, I find Christian Bale and Sigourney so out of place in that trailer I almost cried from laughing so hard.

 

[SNCommand]

One of the biggest complaints I have heard is that the servants are black, while the royalty are just white people with a tan, but it actually makes the most sense historically, slaves in those times were usually taken from foreign lands, Egypt having close ties with the Nubian kingdoms, a people the Egyptians considered dark skinned compared to themselves, royalty on the other hand idealized light skin as it signified status, it still does in that part of the world, having pale skin was a symbol of being rich enough to not having to work in the sun