is sherlock holmes now redundant?

[shrekfan246]

Funny how large the American fan-base is for Doctor Who then, given your theory...

Not to say that the TV execs aren't all paranoid and delusional, but seriously, 'British humour' or the 'British style' aren't so different that we Americans would be too dumb to understand it if given the same shows. References to things that happen specifically across the pond, sure, those might fly over peoples' heads, but I don't see how that would be any different from an American show going the other way. And maybe it would prompt people to actually look up and learn things. ¬_¬

Also, The [American] Office sucked because of Steve Carell.

No, no, no you've missed my point. The problem isn't American audiences but American networks.

You're right American audiences love Doctor Who, they are willing to watch anything if it's good, regardless of where it comes from. American execs however want something 'Americanised' because they think that's better and that's what American writers are familiar with.

Can you think of a American made show that comes close to the style of DW? I can't think of any that have made it back over here. The sames true in reverse, We had a Law and Order spin off (L&W:UK) a while back, started out similar to the US versions but quickly became a typical British crime show because that's what our writers know how to write.

No, I got that.

I just misappropriated the "British style" comment, because I've often seen Brits around here saying that Americans wouldn't be able to understand British humor and that's why all of the shows we take get 'Americanized'.

Sorry if I spun your comment the wrong way.

 

[Edguy]

Funny this thread should show up today.. Some 14 year old girl just said "no shit, Sherlock" to me, and I replied "yes shit, Watson" and she was all "..Watson?!?"

..the fuk?

 

[Hoplon]

so, watching some elementary lately and it occurred to me in these times of CSIs and NCISeses (pretty sure that's the plural) there just isn't a place for old sherlock any more.

it seems to me that sherlock's crime solving abilities are more related to the incompetence of those around him and less to do with his superior intellect. every time i see him pick up on an important clue that the rest of the team missed i can't help but think that Abbie would have noticed that... and looked a damn sight more sexy while doing so

could it be that sherlock holmes in these modern times is dead in the water?

Given half the "solving" on shows like NCIS and CSI involves tech that doesn't exist. No, not really.

Also those shows are terrible dross.

 

[FalloutJack]

No, Holmes is timeless and classic. Furthermore, his level of expertise is a combination of a great and obsessive attention to detail and acquiring of skill crossed with a sort of natural savanthood that could only come from a certain range of mental diagnosis. To whit, all those who have played him...have played the part of a person who is a socially awkward and even irritating fellow when not on a case...or even sometimes when he IS. Even the classic rendition of Holmes by actor Jeremy Brett, while still a gentleman of sorts, could get on a normal person's nerves...especially when he's cogitating.

 

[The Funslinger]

Also... The new US programme Elementary is a discrace, a monstrosity and an embarrasment!

True, but Lucy Liu's fit.

OT: I can see where you're coming from, the modern Sherlock show probably doesn't have as much believability as something set in Victorian times when on-hand wit and intelligence was all they had.

Still entertaining, though.

 

[Stryc9]

so, watching some elementary lately and it occurred to me in these times of CSIs and NCISeses (pretty sure that's the plural) there just isn't a place for old sherlock any more.

it seems to me that sherlock's crime solving abilities are more related to the incompetence of those around him and less to do with his superior intellect. every time i see him pick up on an important clue that the rest of the team missed i can't help but think that Abbie would have noticed that... and looked a damn sight more sexy while doing so

could it be that sherlock holmes in these modern times is dead in the water?

yeaaaaaaahhhhhh!!

No, in the case of Elementary it's not his technique that makes the show good it's the character himself and his absolute arrogance that makes that show so much fun to watch. Also Johnny Lee Miller was Dade Murphy\Zero Kool\CrashOverRide in Hackers which is a cheesy yet still entertaining movie to watch so he gets a pass.

 

[The Funslinger]

Also... The new US programme Elementary is a discrace, a monstrosity and an embarrasment!

True, but Lucy Liu's fit.

OT: I can see where you're coming from, the modern Sherlock show probably doesn't have as much believability as something set in Victorian times when on-hand wit and intelligence was all they had.

Still entertaining, though.

Problem I find is, why does making Watson a hot female really change anything? The dynamic remains exactly the same, why does this happen with a lot of US adaptions of media like this? Why do they underestimate the intelligence of their own viewers to try and understand why such pairings work? Look at the adaptions of Red Dwarf or Steptoe and Son, they didn't need to change anything, yet they did and they both sucked.

No offence intended to any of you US readers out there. I just don't understand how your media needs to alter core elements like that, apart from trying to appeal to the lowest common denominator. Cumberbatch an d Freeman worked just find, why make a new one?

Couldn't tell you, I never watched it. I think I saw a few minutes of an episode once, and the one interesting take on it was they seemed to make Sherlock's cocaine addiction more of an issue than other media, which generally leaves it in the background.

 

[Zeraki]

Watch BBC's Sherlock, then decide whether you still feel the same way about him or not. It does a fantastic job of bringing Sherlock Holmes into the modern world in a believable way(Also, Benedict Cumberbatch is all kinds of spectacular as Holmes).

I haven't watched the American show Elementary... but from what I've seen it just looks pretty 'meh'. From the previews I saw, the guy playing Holmes just seemed... off. Like he was trying too hard.

Sherlock Holmes will be relevant until someone decides to put Robo-Watson in live action. At that point, I feel I can say that the series has played itself out.

Spoiler

For those who were either too young or too old, yes this was a thing.

Oh dear gods... I remember that show. I don't remember much from it, but I do remember the character designs.

 

[Sixcess]

Cumberbatch an d Freeman worked just find, why make a new one?

Brett and Hardwicke worked just fine. Why make a new one?

Elementary is NOT a remake of Sherlock - it is NOT an adaptation of the UK show's scripts or characters. It has the same core concept - "Sherlock Holmes as a modern day character" and that is it. Other than that it takes nothing from the UK show.

As for having a female Watson - I'm a lifelong fan of Holmes (still think Brett is unmatched as a pure portrayal of the character) and I cringed at the thought of the gender switch, but that was before I watched it.

It works very well, indeed I'd go so far as to say it's the best, and likely most mature, role Lucy Liu has ever had, seeing as it plays neither on her sexuality or her ethnicity. In 21 episodes she's had something like 3 lines of dialogue that even acknowledge her ethnic background, and the showrunners are vehemently opposed to having a will they-won't they dynamic.

 

[VoidWanderer]

wait Elementary? What?

Were American audiences just unable to identify with the British cast of Sherlock? Or what reason would there be to make essentially the same thing again but - from what I've seen - less good?

sigh.

Go watch Sherlock. It's quite a unique take on the genre and feels very different to most modern detective TV shows. If anything, it shows how the character of Holmes is still very much relevant even today.

wait Your comment? What?

The shows is completely different from the british Sherlock in basically every way. The characters are very different, the plots are completely different, the setting is very different, the overall story arch is completely different.

The bbc Sherlock is a mini series. It has 6 (albeit long) episodes across 2 seasons. Elementary has 20 episodes in the first season.

Are you actually honestly suggesting that this Sherlock is an "americanised" copy of the british one? Do you have even the slightest freaking idea how many times sherlock holmes has been turned into shows or movies or books?

It's an adaptation for christs sake! They both are! This adaptation is not an adaptation of the other adaptation just because it came out around the same time!

I mean yeah they might have gotten the idea from it but calling it a copy is just beyond ridiculous.

Well... given that Sherlock is based in Modern day London, instead of Victorian London; while Elementary is based in Modern day America...

I haven't actually watched the show, but I am fairly certain that they kept some parts of the characters similar. Given that most other incarnations of Sherlock Holmes has based him in London, but this one where he is based in America would imply an 'Americanization' of the premise.

In regards to the OP... I get that you don't like Sherlock Holmes or 'find him relevant', but couldn't you have used a proper groan-inducing pun above the Horatio gif? Also, I would like to point out that currently Benedict (Sherlock) is in the new Star Trek movie and is voicing Smaug the Dragon, while Martin (Holmes) is playing Bilbo Baggins in the THREE Hobbit movies, so we will have to wait for Sherlock to release it's next season.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

wait Your comment? What?

The shows is completely different from the british Sherlock in basically every way. The characters are very different, the plots are completely different, the setting is very different, the overall story arch is completely different.

The bbc Sherlock is a mini series. It has 6 (albeit long) episodes across 2 seasons. Elementary has 20 episodes in the first season.

Are you actually honestly suggesting that this Sherlock is an "americanised" copy of the british one? Do you have even the slightest freaking idea how many times sherlock holmes has been turned into shows or movies or books?

It's an adaptation for christs sake! They both are! This adaptation is not an adaptation of the other adaptation just because it came out around the same time!

I mean yeah they might have gotten the idea from it but calling it a copy is just beyond ridiculous.

Well... given that Sherlock is based in Modern day London, instead of Victorian London; while Elementary is based in Modern day America...

I haven't actually watched the show, but I am fairly certain that they kept some parts of the characters similar. Given that most other incarnations of Sherlock Holmes has based him in London, but this one where he is based in America would imply an 'Americanization' of the premise.

Yes they kept some aspects of the characters similar (not as much as usually though).

To the original source material. Not to the BBC series.

I have watched both shows and am an enormous fan of both.

And there's nothing "americanized" about it aside from the setting, which is pretty much completely irrelevant and almost never brought up.

I can't honestly tell you that it's either a marketing move or an attempt to make a fresh setting for a Sherlock series, probably a bit of both.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

Cumberbatch an d Freeman worked just find, why make a new one?

Brett and Hardwicke worked just fine. Why make a new one?

Elementary is NOT a remake of Sherlock - it is NOT an adaptation of the UK show's scripts or characters. It has the same core concept - "Sherlock Holmes as a modern day character" and that is it. Other than that it takes nothing from the UK show.

As for having a female Watson - I'm a lifelong fan of Holmes (still think Brett is unmatched as a pure portrayal of the character) and I cringed at the thought of the gender switch, but that was before I watched it.

It works very well, indeed I'd go so far as to say it's the best, and likely most mature, role Lucy Liu has ever had, seeing as it plays neither on her sexuality or her ethnicity. In 21 episodes she's had something like 3 lines of dialogue that even acknowledge her ethnic background, and the showrunners are vehemently opposed to having a will they-won't they dynamic.

I guess my point should be, we already had one modern day Sherlock Holmes series released courtesy of Moffat, so why did someone feel the need to make another one so quickly set in New York?

I've nothing against Liu or Miller, even if I prefer Cumberbatch and Watson, but I just don't see the logic behind needing to create another version of Sherlock Holmes alongside that one.

...Seriously?

Well aside from the fact that the plot formula is completely different the bbc sherlock was a miniseries. Elementary is a series.

Did you consider that they actually wanted it to be more than 6 episodes long? Elementary has 21 episodes in the first season so far.

It's a completely different type of tv show.

 

[Sixcess]

I guess my point should be, we already had one modern day Sherlock Holmes series released courtesy of Moffat, so why did someone feel the need to make another one so quickly set in New York?

It's likely that Elementary originated because (for whatever reason) the US network did not secure the rights to do a straight remake of Sherlock.

Regardless of the original intent the end result has nothing in common with the UK show, and in making Sherlock's drug use the core of his character I think they've focused on an aspect of the character that very few past adaptations (other than Billy Wilder's 1970 movie) have really explored.

What irritates me about the discussion (in general, not your posts specifically) is that it predictably breaks down into the usual fanboy factionalism - Star Trek vs Star Wars; Marvel vs DC etc, like it's against the rules to like both, or at least to appreciate the difference.

And as much as I hate to say it, some of the Sherlock fans need to do some damn research, like actually watch the US show for more than 5 minutes, before they go waffling on about how 'their' show is better.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Here's the thing - Holmes was a walking laboratory in the original stories. He didn't have to send anything for dusting, checking or analyzing: the man could deduce EVERYTHING from ANYTHING because he was an über A+ on chemistry and biology. At this point those skills have become obsolete because anybody can pick up stuff from a crime scene and forward it to a lab for data. Isn't what the dudes from CSI, NCIS and those shows do? Collect shit from the crime scene, have it swiftly analyzed in a test-tube montage and take it from there? All they do is connect the dots in between lab scenes. Whereas Holmes did all the work himself, which was what was so amazing about him. Inevitably, any film or show about him will be obsolete since modern-day forensics have replaced what made him so special.

Captcha: "catch the man"

Holy fuck, Captcha.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

Sure. And since we have Justin Bieber, we no longer need Rock 'n' Roll. Personally, I'm changing my ringtone from the second solo of Comfortably Numb to Baby.

 

[nsqared]

so, watching some elementary lately

well here's your problem. I don't consider Elementary to be a very good example of good sherlock holmes fiction, because it's mainly a ripoff of BBC's Sherlock.
Someone else said that computers and cellphones are making him redundant, but in Sherlock, Holmes uses computers and his cellular phone to a great extent, and he's still three steps ahead of everyone else.
In short, no, he's not redundant, with good writers the character is able to adapt to modern times and modern use of computers and he's still a great character.

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

it seems to me that sherlock's crime solving abilities are more related to the incompetence of those around him and less to do with his superior intellect. every time i see him pick up on an important clue that the rest of the team missed i can't help but think that Abbie would have noticed that... and looked a damn sight more sexy while doing so

Sounds more like a problem with the writing of Elementary than with the inherent concept of Sherlock Holmes

 

[Childe]

I... I... I don't... I dont even... What!?

Seriously... How can this even be a question!? That's like saying is Tom Sawyer irrellevant because who makes kids paint fences nowadays... or Of Mice and Men is irrelevant because noone works as drifters on plantations anymore, and George would be arrested as part of a murder case...

It's a classic story, like any Dickens and any Shakespear, and should never become discounted or discredited due to modern technology!

Also... The new US programme Elementary is a discrace, a monstrosity and an embarrasment!

I disagree i love sherlock holmes... read all the books and i must say that i think that elementary is a great modern adaption...better then sherlock at any rate

 

[Strain42]

While this has nothing to do with whether or not it's redundant, and I'm going to feel like such a hipster for saying this, but with the huge success of stuff like Sherlock, I feel as though classic Holmes has sadly been cast aside.

I grew up reading Holmes. I still read the classic novels and short stories every now and then, my high school yearbook quote came from The Sign of Four. I love my Holmes.

And it used to be I couldn't talk about Holmes because nobody around me had ever read the books or short stories, or had even heard of them.

But now I can't talk about them for a completely different reason, and that reason is Sherlock. Now don't get me wrong. I love Sherlock. I think it's an amazingly well done interpretation of the characters, I think the actors are phenomenal, I think it's a great show.

So now it's the same as before, but with false hope attached. I try to have conversations about Holmes, I ask what people's favorite story was, or what their thoughts on the Dancing Men were, but whenever I try to have a conversation about Mycroft's appearance in The Greek Interpreter, all I ever get is "Oh man, I LOOOOOVVE Sherlock. Benedict Cumberbatch is so cute when he wrinkles his nose."

I once tried discussing the novels with someone whose exact words were "I've loved Holmes my whole life" only for them to say "Oh no, I never read any of the stories. I just watch Sherlock."

I'm not trying to sound elitist or anything, but I feel like with Sherlock, it's become kind of annoying to be around all these Sherlockians who couldn't care less about the Conan Doyle works.

And again, I love Sherlock. I will have lengthy conversations about Sherlock...but trying to have a conversation about Holmes...I'm still pretty SOL.

EDIT: In regards to Elementary, I feel like the show must be judged on two things.

If you just judge it as a detective show, it's average, run of the mill, nothing special, but there have been worse mystery shows out there.

But the problem is, they wanted to be a Sherlock Holmes show, and I feel that's what hurts it the most, because you will ALWAYS have the comparison to...well...Sherlock Holmes. Honestly, they could have just called the show Murder Most Foul, the main characters names could have been Reginald Pendant and Michelle Wu, and it would have been the EXACT same show, but without all the people saying it's a bad Sherlock Holmes.

It really is a matter of "a rose by any other name..." here. The show would be the same show if the title and character names were changed, but our own perception of it would probably be different. I'm not saying that people who dislike it would magically like it just because the Sherlock Holmes goggles have been lifted, but it'd be easier for a lot of people to judge it on its own merits rather than having a basis of comparison.

 

[RJ Dalton]

The deductive reasoning he used to display is also pretty much standard for those types of shows nowadays... Though I think Detective Goren (of L&O: CI) was usually depicted most Holmes-like of the modern characters.

Fun fact: the kind of reasoning Sherlock Holmes used in the novels was actually not deductive reasoning. It's called inductive reasoning.

On topic, given that CSI and NCIS suck tremendously, I'd say no, Holmes isn't redundant.
Of course, I haven't read too many Sherlock Holmes novels, or seen any of the TV stuff, so I probably shouldn't be making statements about their overall quality. But fuck it! Internet is for unfounded opinions. If you want founded opinions go to . . .

. . .

Where the hell are opinions based on fact and experience valued in this society?