Is The Elder Scrolls setting actually regressing?

[Phrozenflame500]

The "lore" reason is that the many natural disasters and wars has caused a hampering on progress and a loss of knowledge.

Of course wars in real life often cause a dramatic increase in technology due to the arms race that follows, the real reason is that Bethesda decided to be lazy shits and rely on the old "medieval European" fantasy setting rather then do anything clever or creative.

Personally I'd like to see Tamriel evolve technologically for the next game. It doesn't have to go full steam-punk, but I think TES games could bring the already existing man-vs-nature themes to the forefront and have there be an actual conflict between the more fantastical beings and the more technologically advanced townsfolk.

EDIT: Thinking about it more, this could be the perfect place to take the Aldmeri Dominion subplot to the next game. The elves have a mastery of magic while the nords/imperials are more organized and technologically advanced. In addition, it could cause some civil strife due to the empire developing some xenophobia towards other types of -mer due to the war.

 

[fix-the-spade]

Barring Arena and Daggerfall (apart from the giant magic robot), does it feel to anyone else that Tamriel is devolving technologically?

It's worth noting that by the time of Skyrim Tamriel has been hit by at least one major cataclysm.

Sspecifically Vivec has 'died' (or disappeared, or been claimed by a real God), the asteroid that contained the ministry of truth regained it's momentum, struck Vivec City and made the Red Mountain erupt. Most of Vvardenfell island has been destroyed, the great Dwemer Ruins on the island are gone and Vivec City is now a crater. The destruction was so vast it reached mainland Morrowind and Blackmarsh to the south and flattened a chunk of Solstheim to the north.

Vvardenfell was the primary source of Dwemer artefacts and the Dunmer seat of power, it's where all the high technology of Tamriel came from and it's been blasted to smithereens. Vivec city was one the main sources of learning for all of Tamriel, it and it's libraries are gone.

Skyrim takes place roughly two centuries after that, even then the Dunmer are scattered and Morrowind is still a blasted wreck, on Vvardenfell Mournhold (which survived the blast) and Balmora (which was rebuilt) are the only cities remaining. The Empire no longer has anything to do with Morrowind and the Dunmer are in a state of perpetual war with the Argonians. Couple that with the Empire's fragmenting and the war with the High Elves and a pretty good case could be made that Tamriel has suffered a period of technological decline.

Whether Bethesda's writers thought that deeply about it is another question, it would help to explain the lack of high end Dwarven armour in Skyrim and the relatively poorly equipped Empire troops.

 

[4Aces]

I very much doubt its intentional though. I mean, Bethesda have their strengths... somewhere, I'm sure, but do they really strike you as the kind of devs who put that degree of thought into their setting?

No they do not. Their team lead for Skyrim advertised the fact that game design document were too much work, so they just winged it. Probably the reason I lost interest half-way through since it was just auto-repeat, cut and paste quests (with a few non-critical randomized elements), and 300 dungeons all made with the same 15 prefabs. When you can take anything down at level 40 without breaking a sweat, you know they really could have used a game design document and someone with more of a clue. I hear Todd made a killing anyway, so I doubt anything will change in the next decade or so.

All my hope now lie with Fallout Online and Wasteland 2 to put some actual design and proper gameplay instead of just combat, combat, and how a bit more combat? Wait, what do you mean that is only one factor of gameplay? Show me in the game design document where it says that. Ha! Didn't think you could do it.

EDIT - Ha, I forgot to address the OP. Yes, for the reasons listed above. Too much death and destruction over the last few games (500+ years). I guess that is why they went back in time with the online version (and why they made it look like it came from the original Xbox).

 

[The_Echo]

Every province is different. They all have generally the same technology. But their architecture can be vastly different. This doesn't represent their technology though.

The most advanced tech comes from the Dwemer, whose ruins are most abundant in Morrowind and Skyrim. This kind of stuff doesn't really trade in Tamriel. Each race and/or province has their own way of life, their own means to get by. For example, the Altmer of Summerset Isle rely heavily on magic, so you'd very rarely see machines there like you can see in Skyrim.

Considering Tamriel is completely fucked by fate, and there always seems to be something horrible going on, I'd imagine progression is fairly slow. The relationships between races and provinces is deep-seated and alliances are few, even when brought under the same Empire.

Nirn is not Earth. These people don't hold the same values as us. While we look for progression, I feel the denizens of Tamriel look for surviving the day.

 

[Maxtro]

I think it's really just a fantasy setting.

Elder Scrolls Online takes place 1,000 years before Skyrim, and it pretty much looks like technology hasn't advanced at all.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Y'know, this whole idea could lead to a great reboot/remake/whatever, or maybe even a TES version, of "Arcanum". For those who never played this very cool, old-school RPG, the central concept behind the world was that it was a traditional fantasy setting in the midst of an industrial revolution (heavily steampunk inspired), and the world had basically been split between those who favored Magic and those who favored Technology.

 

[LittleJoeRambler]

As far as Skyrim goes, I'd wager the main reason you don't see spears/pikes/halberds is the terrain; Skyrim isn't exactly great for cavalry maneuvers, with most of it being mountainous or forested. It's not great land for horses in large formations, though as beasts of burden and a means of transportation for small groups they still work fine. In that context, having a greatsword or battle axe would probably be sufficient for dispatching the odd opponent on horseback.

For the rest of it, I'd throw my lot in with magic.

 

[piinyouri]

I think it may just be a coincidence. In that the provinces they've chosen have gotten poorer and poorer.

But then this is the company that will use lore to justify anything[/] and vice versa so who knows.

 

[Double A]

I'm sure it's just provincial. The Dunmer are rather advanced, as are the Altmer. The Imperials and Bretons are probably at the same level, with the Nords, Orcs, and Redguards in third, then the Bosmer and Khajiit, and then finally the Argonians. Of course "technology" just means tools made to compensate for unsuitability to the environment, and since Argonians (for example) are ridiculously suited to theirs, they really don't give a fuck. Climate also has an impact. Black Marsh is really unsuitable to a lot of metals. We compare tech levels to Cyrodiil and High Rock because those are straight European analogues but that doesn't necessarily mean anyone else is less advanced after you take relativity into account.

Plus, the Numidium was kind of Dwemer tech, and absolutely NO ONE knows how to replicate that crazy shit. They were secretive though, so it's not like when they disappeared, tech levels fell. They were more a separate civilization than anything else.

I hadn't actually noticed.

I very much doubt its intentional though. I mean, Bethesda have their strengths... somewhere, I'm sure, but do they really strike you as the kind of devs who put that degree of thought into their setting?

I imagine Skyrim had old timey boats because they wanted it to look like Nord central and those boats look distinctively Nord, not because they were intentionally depicting technological disparity across regions or overarching regression.

Some for the Roman-looking Empire. You have swords-and-armour setting with an Empire in it. You want to make the Empire look empire-y. Quick way to do it? Make them look like the best known ancient empire.

TES' backstory is actually really fucking huge. There are actually characters who have access to the mod construction set because they realize that everything, including them, is part of a dream of a figure called the godhead. Most people who realize this just go poof, but they know that since they are a part of the godhead, they ARE the godhead, and therefore can change reality as much as they damn well please. It's called CHIM and reading more about it is liable to make your head explode.

 

[Vern5]

Snipsis

I'm really ill right now so I'm having trouble communicating efficiently. I'm guessing I meant 'Tamriel' when I wrote "world". Also, when I was talking about cultures I was getting ready to lead into how military technologies being held onto whereas culture is less consistent. Ergo, the spear and crossbow technologies should be all over the place even if they aren't being mass-produced. It would not be unthinkable to assume that, say, the Argonians know how to make crossbows but do not use them for various reasons.

And I agree with you about Oblivion. Seriously, what the fuck happened to Cyrodil?

 

[TehCookie]

So why are there no crossbows in Cyrodil? Why are there no spears? Surely there would be a need for spears in a place where horses and mounted knights are present?

Remember, mounted combat is brand-new in Skyrim. It wasn't even something when the game first released and was introduced later. So they didn't develop spears because people always got off their horses to fight instead

 

[Ruzinus]

Maybe? I mean, Morrowind is gone, and who else had technology worth even half a damn? Maybe the Summerset Isles but if anyone isn't sharing it's them.

Morrowind and Skyrim are the two provinces with a bunch of advanced technology lying around. In Morrowind that technology is kind of interesting. In Skyrim that technology is actively feared and hated.

So, yeah I think if anyplace on that continent is gonna have good technology its Morrowind.

 

[Blaster395]

The Empire of Tamriel is on the decline. Think of the Roman Empire's decline in real life, and you realize that the post-WRE Europe looked less technologically advanced than pre-WRE.

Importantly, it wasn't actually less technologically advanced. The main changes were the abandonment of large cities, decentralization and reduced population. However, technology in the fields of farming, warfare, metalworking and everything else continued to improve. In the ERE and the middle east, technology never even took a slowdown. If you like big cities and nation-states, then the dark ages were dark. If you like not dying of starvation and disease the dark ages were an improvement once past the initial downfall. By the turn of the millennium, Europe had also far surpassed Ancient architecture despite far lower centralization. From 1200 onwards, to give an example, London had a building that exceeded the height of the Great Pyramid.

The increased technology in Skyrim is there, it just doesn't look like increased technology because there is no fancy marble buildings. Skyrim is even beginning to show the initial stages of a coming industrial revolution, the mechanized lumber workshops being a sign of that.

This is of course ignoring the Thalmor. Although we don't see much of them and never see their homeland, I think there is enough reason to assume they have even better technology.

 

[Beffudled Sheep_v1legacy]

Well here are some thoughts I've mulled over a little bit but never went too far with.

The country of Morrowind was founded much later than Skyrim. Skyrim was founded during the Merethic era and is the oldest settlement of men in Tamriel. Morrowind was founded during the first era.
Now you also mostly play on the island of Vvardenfell which was mostly undeveloped and backwater until the second era. During that era Vvardenfell had many new towns founded and a couple older ones renovated, improved and expanded by an aggressive colonization and a rush of capital.
Skyrim on the other hand hasn't really seen such a rush of colonists and it hasn't seen much investment. Its towns are rather static and their designs, while seemingly primitive, work. If it ain't broke don't fix it ya know?
But Vvardenfell saw a lot of improvement and work done to it and they did have a literal God both living there and watching over the place. Why is Vivec City so grand, organized and awesome? Because a damn God lives there. A very intelligent, very magical God thats practically immortal. Neither Skyrim nor Cyrodiil ever had someone of such power, patience or intelligence ruling over them.

And then a meteor hit, a volcano exploded, war happened everywhere, and lots of knowledge was lost, and people probably were focusing more on demonic invasion and other wars than they were on making their buildings look pretty.

Sorry if this was a bit incoherent, I'm really beat.

 

[elvor0]

I very much doubt its intentional though. I mean, Bethesda have their strengths... somewhere, I'm sure, but do they really strike you as the kind of devs who put that degree of thought into their setting?

All my hope now lie with Fallout Online and Wasteland 2 to put some actual design and proper gameplay instead of just combat, combat, and how a bit more combat? Wait, what do you mean that is only one factor of gameplay? Show me in the game design document where it says that. Ha! Didn't think you could do it.

Game issues themselves aside, I'm not sure Valve have much in the way of game design documents either. They have a large cork board with tasks on sticky notes stuck to it. Also, you're not actually talking to Todd by the way, so rhetorical self answering for something we don't even have access to in the first place just makes you look a...little crazy.

Games are very fickle things, a rough design document is good, but it's not something necessary to /start/ out with, nor like Todd said is something you're likely to stick to. They did have one, just not to start with, most of em do, in a way make it up as they go along. It's not like a railroad, or a new networking system, which sticks to rigid planning and project management systems like PRINCE2, most game companies use some form of AGILE, which is tantamount to having an iterative basket of tasks and just doing them as needs be in predefined cycles, along with very little paperwork, obviously it's a bit more structured than that, but this isn't something unique to skyrim or Bethesda for that matter. The good games are the one with creative freedom. Obviously Skyrim has some issues but relative to now it is a /good/ game, not really great, but good. Morrowind is still the best one relative to its time, even if it is /incredibly/ dated.

It's the games obviously created for a quick buck or cashing in on the latest fad that have those complex design documents, purely so they've got a list of boxes to check.

For example, CoD 4 Probably wasn't quite so rigid in its design, new Medal of Honor on the other hand? Bobby Kotick likely just looked at CoD and went "Yup, we need this this and that for easy money! Here's a checklist, get to it!" Same with the million WoW clones knocking about.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Do you think that this is intentional on the part of Bethesda? The Dwemer were right into a Steam based society, so I think that there is an ingame precedent for this regression. In TESVI are we going to be fighting in roman or even pre-roman technology levels?

The Dwemer were an oddity as they based their technology on anti-creation, as for everyone else, each provinces level of technology is based on their culture.
-Morrowind had a living god to guide them, so had the best technology.
-The Imperials were based on Romans, so had a Roman-esque level of technology
-The Nords were based on vikings, so have had viking level technology.
I dont see any real regression, just what might appear to be one given the order in which we viewed the cultures.

]The Dawnguard DLC added crossbows.

Crossbows have been around since the time of Morrowind, 200 years before Skyrim.

I'd argue that this stems from the different pacing and balancing of the two games, where in Morrowind, levelling up takes time and effort, and in Skyrim, you're a god half an hour out of the tutorial.

-Only if your bad at Morrowind.
-Only if you are grinding in Skyrim.

No they do not. Their team lead for Skyrim advertised the fact that game design document were too much work, so they just winged it.

They said no such thing, in-fact, skyrim as it is in-game is almost directly copy pasted from the pocket guide to the empire, which released with Redguard back in 1998

So why are there no crossbows in Cyrodil? Why are there no spears? Surely there would be a need for spears in a place where horses and mounted knights are present?

Because its a game, with limited time and buget, so they had to focus on specific things, rather then adding every single thing imaginable that would be there in lore. They are not in newer games because they simply weren't given the budget to make them, and because they lacked a gameplay purpose to warrant giving up on something else to make them, not because they magically vanished.

Every time someone asks this question I wonder if they understand how games actually are made.

http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1207390-skyrim-fan-interview/
6) Will items present in Morrowind but not in Oblivion, such as spears, medium armor, and mark/recall spells, be making a return?
Todd: They are not in Skyrim for the same reasons we didn?t include them in Oblivion. I?ll address each one. First spears, the truth is we?d love to do them, but it becomes a priority and development time thing for us. We feel it?s better to spend our time right now making sure the gameplay for the other play styles is really solid. That includes sword, sword and shield, two-handed weapons, and bows. You can also add magic to that list. Getting those all working well together, while feeling different, is our priority.

As far as medium armor, that?s not a time or polish thing, it?s a design choice to focus on two armor types and making sure those feel different and the player appreciates them. We try to make your character move and feel different between light and heavy and having a 3rd one in the middle just muddies it up in how it plays, as well as visually. And even now, we still have to tweak those two armor types so they feel different, while remaining fun. Every time we slow down heavy armor more, it feels bad, but it?s the main way of balancing it. We?ve added other ways of balancing it that feel right?like different stamina drain rates when sprinting and such.

Mark and recall is one where it?s a lot of fun, but like levitation, was removed so we could design better gameplay spaces and scenarios. We were really limited in Morrowind because the player could recall or levitate out of many situations and break them. There was a lot of good gameplay and level design work that we just couldn?t do and now we can. Back then it seemed like many good ideas we had were shot down when another designer would say ?oh yeah, I just levitate or recall away.? So we got rid of them.

 

[ClockworkUniverse]

-Only if your bad at Morrowind.
-Only if you are grinding in Skyrim.

This is quite simply not true, unless your definition of grinding is "doing anything but standing around." Skyrim is designed so that any action you take WILL give you progress toward levelling, especially if it's something you've already done a lot, where in Morrowind, you actually have to intentionally try to level. I'm not saying it's hard to level in Morrowind, just that it's an actual intentional action, while in Skyrim it's pretty much automatic. This means that if you play both games for the same amount of time, a Skyrim character will generally be more powerful.

 

[AntiChri5]

-Only if your bad at Morrowind.
-Only if you are grinding in Skyrim.

This is quite simply not true, unless your definition of grinding is "doing anything but standing around." Skyrim is designed so that any action you take WILL give you progress toward levelling, especially if it's something you've already done a lot, where in Morrowind, you actually have to intentionally try to level. I'm not saying it's hard to level in Morrowind, just that it's an actual intentional action, while in Skyrim it's pretty much automatic. This means that if you play both games for the same amount of time, a Skyrim character will generally be more powerful.

Thats not true. In Morrowind, everything you did levelled you up. Walking, running, fighting, casting, swimming, everything.

In Skyrim, you can't level by walking/jumping/swimming/travelling and it is possible to engage in combat without raising skills which level you up.

 

[AntiChri5]

]

I have to disagree, technology is improving.

Look at Dwarven armour. It's ancient technology, salvaged from a dead civilization. Therefore, we can assume that it hasn't been changing. It's a reliable constant.

In Morrowind, Dwarven armour was one of the best kinds of heavy armour around. But in Skyrim, it's fairly early stuff that gets outpaced quickly. Clearly, there have been advances in armour and weapon smithing.

The Dawnguard DLC added crossbows.

Yes? And......?

Sorry, im not sure how that is relelvant to what i said.

 

[ClockworkUniverse]

-Only if your bad at Morrowind.
-Only if you are grinding in Skyrim.

This is quite simply not true, unless your definition of grinding is "doing anything but standing around." Skyrim is designed so that any action you take WILL give you progress toward levelling, especially if it's something you've already done a lot, where in Morrowind, you actually have to intentionally try to level. I'm not saying it's hard to level in Morrowind, just that it's an actual intentional action, while in Skyrim it's pretty much automatic. This means that if you play both games for the same amount of time, a Skyrim character will generally be more powerful.

Thats not true. In Morrowind, everything you did levelled you up. Walking, running, fighting, casting, swimming, everything.

In Skyrim, you can't level by walking/jumping/swimming/travelling and it is possible to engage in combat without raising skills which level you up.

In Morrowind, you pick ten skills at the start that level you up. Nothing else you do levels you up, no matter how much you do it. And walking doesn't level you up, no matter how much you do it. Running, jumping, and swimming increase some of the skills that you can choose, but they drain your stamina, which means that if you've been doing them, you'll suck at everything else in the event that you're attacked.

Furthermore, your stat increases when you level up are based on how many skills relative to that stat you've increased since your last level, so if you level up mostly through travel in Morrowind, your high-level character will move relatively fast and be absolutely shit at everything else. Admittedly, in a game with such a large map and slow movement, walking fast is a big deal.

In Skyrim, meanwhile, every skill affects your overall level, and while it's true you can't level up by travelling, combat is EVERYWHERE, and to engage in combat without leveling, you pretty much have to be going out of your way to play a character for that specific purpose.

On the other hand, Morrowind admittedly DOES lack the issue in Oblivion and Skyrim where levelling up from non-combat skills actively makes you weaker relative to everything else in the world, so there's that.