Is the Insanity Plea a legitimate defense?

[Ruwrak]

Just toss him in jail and forget about the keys.
Using insanity as an escape. If anything he is a terrorist (he is..) and I don't think he deserves anything else but the rotting away in jail part. But meh we're a nice people who love eachother....

too bad norway like to rehabilitate their prisnors, its not like they are the best in the world at it

anyway yes its a legitimate defense. really though its not like a defense in a i didnt do it way, when you go with the insanity defense unlike the i didnt do it you are generally not acquitted, its not like you are found innocent, just that you are not fully responsible for your actions. its just a different end game, they get sent to a place for medical treatment instead of prison.

The Netherlands give mental patients parole... And every single time someone gets killed, hurt, raped or robbed by that person. Even with escort they manage to escape.

Sure it's alegitimate defense, if he really is insane. I'd call him to smart to be insane. He knew what he was doing, he had a plan worked out for years. I don't call that insane. I call that hiding behind insanaty claims.

 

[Treblaine]

it's not enough, that most of the prisons in the nordic countries are like a vacation resort, but now they let THAT guy go free.


NOW THAT IS A LOAD OF BULL

He is not free. He'd getting committed to a mental Asylum.

This is probably the most stringent ruling under Norwegian law that this murderer could get!

 

[AndyFromMonday]

The Norwegian law system is focused on rehabilitation, not punishment. Breivik is clearly insane and the only option for him at this point is being institutionalized.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

Umm... Yeah? Why does it matter if they get a life sentence in prison or in the loony bin? They're still out of the way and no longer killing people.

Because if he's sent to the loony bin, they're assuming he can be rehabilitated into the society. He would be treated as if his murdering 77 innocent people was a symptom of illness and not a pre-meditated plan of murder. His lawyer (the poor bastard) will be trying to say that "he's sorry for what he did as he wasn't in control of his actions and that he should be able be made into a functioning member of the public again."

He needs to be locked up in a dirty cell made to look at the pictures of the families he's destroyed and never see the light of day. There are just some people who should have been aborted before birth and he's one of them.

I would contest that. An attempt should be made to rehabilitate people as much as possible. So if you have to opportunity to both confine someone and try to make them a normal person, why wouldn't you?

EDIT: Also, I would argue that murdering 77 people is always a sign of mental illness. A premeditated plan to kill people shows complete disregard for human life, which I would say is itself, a mental illness.

 

[Kriptonite]

Have no fear fellow human beings, the Death Penalty is here to save the day!

 

[Wuggy]

People should research the legal/prison system in Norway before they say anything about this. The American prison system is much about retribution, whereas Norwegian is about rehabilitation. The Norwegian prisons are luxurious compared to the US prison. Look, here's a picture of a Norwegian prison 'cell':

The inmates study, they have access to internet, they execrise hobbies. It's basically a supervised motel that you can't get out of whenever you want.

There is no life-sentence in Norway, the max determinate penalty is 21 years in prison and only a very small fraction spend that. The maximum sentence for "crimes against humanity" is 30 years. Prisoners usually get unsupervised parole on weekends and such after serving about a third of their sentence. There is a possibility of serving a lifetime in prison with "Containment", which is set for the standard 21 years, but can be prolonged if the prisoner in question is still considered dangerous. However, they could be released, either from prison entirely or just on parole, after 10 years of serving the sentence if they are no longer considered a danger to society.

Psychiatric Ward however ensures that he'll be there for his lifetime. To people who go "they should just let him rot in jail for the rest of his life!", if you're that hell-bent on revenge and retribution, this solution should actually be preferable to you.

Clearly that holiday snap is from a low security prison. You know... petty theft. Maybe some manslaughter, drug traffiking, etc. but certainly not someone who murders 77 people in cold blood.

What do you mean "clearly"? I'm not sure which specific prison that is from, but here is a snap from the prison Breivik was speculated he would go (although not from official police sources), Halden Prison, second most biggest criminal facility in Norway:

The cell includes a flat-screen tv, fridge, unbarred window, it's own bathroom. See, this courtesy is extended to all criminals, not just people who commit "petty theft". Halden has people like rapists and murderers.

 

[Seydaman]

If it is properly evaluated and it is determined by certified doctors that the person in question is not of a sane mind, yes, I'd say it's a legitimate plea, not that they should run free. Just have them locked up in a different style than random criminal no. 5758

 

[Jadak]

Depends how you define defense.

It's not like they're going to go "Oh, you only killed all those people because you're fucking insane? Well okay then, you're free to go, enjoy your day!".

So assuming that particular aspect isn't a factor, then yeah. Why wouldn't it be an acceptable defense? It just means he'll end up locked up with a bunch of fellow crazies instead of the sane criminals. I doubt that's going to be a particularly cheerful way to live out ones life, so I don't really see the problem.

The only valid point against it I could see is if the death penalty is an option, and pleading insanity allows that particular to be avoided. But in general, no, there's nothing wrong with it. The important part is that he's kept the fuck away from the general public and as much as people may not like to complain, how the guy lives once he's locked up doesn't actually make any difference to anyone. The only difference between letting the guy live out a life of isolated luxury somewhere and eternal torture is that it will briefly make people happy knowing that he's suffering and pissed off knowing that he's happy. Both of which are completely irreverent when the person in question no longer has any exposure to those people.

 

[xvbones]

[
The Norwegians are basically peace-loving hippies, and it's not going down in the way you so describe. Sure, a mental ward isn't a playground there either, but the only time you will be strapped to a bed is if you misbehave. Breivik, for all his lack of emphaty, isn't without logic. He isn't going to misbehave if he knows it will make his situation worse.

I personally think he belongs in a prison.

With all due respect, you have very clearly spent no time in an actual mental facility.
That is a very good thing. It is probably worth bragging about.

Please, please take my word when I say that the rest of this man's life will be spent very heavily drugged and that he will, not if, not when, will, spend a great deal of time strapped to a bed.

Peace-loving hippies whatever, that is how they treat inmates at their prisons.

That is because at their prisons, they are trying to rehabilitate people to set them on a productive path. Former convicts, unlike in America, are not treated as current convicts and thus can actually get jobs, so that they do not fall back into bad habits.

But they are not putting him into prison.
Prison is not happening to him.
They are not trying to rehabilitate this man.
This man will be in the mental institution for the rest of his life.

They want to make certain he is never again a danger to himself or to anyone else for the rest of his life.

Which means, with respect, drugs that shut most of his brain completely off, a bed with built-in restraints and drool.

Lots and lots of drool.

For the rest of his life.

 

[Seydaman]

People should research the legal/prison system in Norway before they say anything about this. The American prison system is much about retribution, whereas Norwegian is about rehabilitation. The Norwegian prisons are luxurious compared to the US prison. Look, here's a picture of a Norwegian prison 'cell':

The inmates study, they have access to internet, they execrise hobbies. It's basically a supervised motel that you can't get out of whenever you want.

There is no life-sentence in Norway, the max determinate penalty is 21 years in prison and only a very small fraction spend that. The maximum sentence for "crimes against humanity" is 30 years. Prisoners usually get unsupervised parole on weekends and such after serving about a third of their sentence. There is a possibility of serving a lifetime in prison with "Containment", which is set for the standard 21 years, but can be prolonged if the prisoner in question is still considered dangerous. However, they could be released, either from prison entirely or just on parole, after 10 years of serving the sentence if they are no longer considered a danger to society.

Psychiatric Ward however ensures that he'll be there for his lifetime. To people who go "they should just let him rot in jail for the rest of his life!", if you're that hell-bent on revenge and retribution, this solution should actually be preferable to you.

Clearly that holiday snap is from a low security prison. You know... petty theft. Maybe some manslaughter, drug traffiking, etc. but certainly not someone who murders 77 people in cold blood.

What do you mean "clearly"? I'm not sure which specific prison that is from, but here is a snap from the prison Breivik was speculated he would go (although not from official police sources), Halden Prison, second most biggest criminal facility in Norway:

The cell includes a flat-screen tv, fridge, unbarred window, it's own bathroom. See, this courtesy is extended to all criminals, not just people who commit "petty theft". Halden has people like rapists and murderers.

Looking at all that. I'd just like to say, I support the idea of having our prison system focus on helping people who've done wrong rather than just putting them in a box for a set amount of time.

Do prisoners see therapists?

 

[Treblaine]

snip

Soon as I saw your post I was like "I don't remember replying to this thread :S"

Well this is awkward. And both our names even begin with "T".

Erm. In my defence I made this animated gif myself... and I thought I was being so original. I just wanted one where doomguy stares intently and occasionally glances with cautious scepticism to either side, not going through the whole range of rage and wounding.

I think it's better for all parties considered that he is put into a psychiatric ward, and here is why:

Now that he has been officially declared insane, it makes his' "statement" lose all credibility and his supporters or other racist bigots can also be viewed as mentally impaired douches. Now there is going to be a lot less people that can publicly agree with him.

If he had been sentenced to death, he would've just become a martyr for his "holy cause", thus locking him up in a mental hospital is a lot better alternative.

I think this is the best point so far.

Various people in prison have been hailed as heroes of some sort, daring rogues even, but not insane people in prison! If anything they are looked at with macabre fascination like an exotic and dangerous animal locked in a cage, but no one tries to make sense of a gorilla's pacing, we all know its a beast without reason. Same with insane people.

I bet all those people who read his thousand-page manifesto are feeling pretty foolish now, like realising they've just wasted hours conversing with a crazy eyed street-vagrant as if he might have had a genuine point about the CIA controlling our minds with satellites.

 

[xvbones]

Looking at all that. I'd just like to say, I support the idea of having our prison system focus on helping people who've done wrong rather than just putting them in a box for a set amount of time.

Do prisoners see therapists?

If it is called for. Mostly they get a lot of like job training, ish. Sometimes specifically, sometimes more like job counseling, how to not be a criminal, in essence.

It has been working really well, is my understanding. Only like something like 20% of their criminals come back to prison, compared to America which is something like 60%.

People can hate on the Norwegians and call them hippies as much as they want, it does not matter because it apparently works a hell of a lot better than our system.

All I'll say is that every single application for every single job in America has the words "have you ever committed a felony" written on it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I don't know why people don't get this. And here of all places... you'd think no one has ever heard of Arkham Asylum. Figure this guy is going someplace like it just much less interesting yet vastly more disturbing and depressing.

Honestly, it being Norway, he probably will be kept in a bright, clean, well-lit room and his orderlies will probably never mistreat him.

This man will never not be heavily medicated full stop.

The rest of this man's existence involve very simple shapes and several gallons of drool, I shit you not.

My ex's friend self admitted to a state run psychiatric hospital. My ex asked if I would call her and talk to her because she was really depressed and just needed someone to talk to every now and again. When I talked to her she was mostly coherent but had just taken her meds and started to trail off towards the end of our conversation. In the background I could hear people shouting and acting out. I barely knew her friend yet she was so happy just to talk to me and was practically begging me to stay on the phone with her and call back another time. She cried when she had to get off the phone. That was depressing enough just talking to her, I can not imagine actually having to be there let alone in an institution for the criminally insane. They don't have to mistreat you. Just being in an environment like that is practically cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[Wuggy]

Looking at all that. I'd just like to say, I support the idea of having our prison system focus on helping people who've done wrong rather than just putting them in a box for a set amount of time.

Do prisoners see therapists?

As far as I know, yes, they do get counseling in the facility. The whole point is not to estrange the inmates from normal society by making their life miserable. And so far it has worked. If I remember correctly, the re-offending rate is around 30% lower than in, say, United States. It's a very pragmatic approach to the justice system, and I'm actually in support of that. Result matters more to me than sating my sense of 'justified vengeance' or some such.

 

[Naeras]

I don't really give a damn. He'll be locked down in a cell for the rest of his life anyways. Any form of interaction with prison inmates will get him killed, and they can't, at any point, release the guy, as people would try to kill him within seconds of him getting out of prison.

If he ever gets "mentally sane", they'll just put him in an isolate cell in a regular prison anyways.

 

[Tekkawarrior]

snip

Soon as I saw your post I was like "I don't remember replying to this thread :S"

Well this is awkward. And both our names even begin with "T".

Erm. In my defence I made this animated gif myself... and I thought I was being so original. I just wanted one where doomguy stares intently and occasionally glances with cautious scepticism to either side, not going through the whole range of rage and wounding.

Na it's cool. I just couldn't help pointing it out.

OT: On the long term a psych ward is my vote. It will drive him insane.

 

[Joccaren]

Insanity plea makes perfect sense, and is a legitimate defence.
It does not so much excuse you from any punishment as much as change your punishment to better suit you.

If you are in some way insane, putting you in a prison with the chance of you going crazy isn't exactly a good idea. Putting you in a Psych Ward so that if you do, you and others will be kept safe, is. A psych ward isn't necessarily the easy way out, its just a different solution. In this case, either way it is a life sentence for him. One way he has a chance of doing it again and hurting more people, even if they are criminals, and the other he will be monitored well and kept safe so that he won't be able to harm anyone should he go crazy again.

Letting someone off free due to insanity? No. Sending them to a psych ward instead of prison? Yeah.

 

[xvbones]

My ex's friend self admitted to a state run psychiatric hospital. My ex asked if I would call her and talk to her because she was really depressed and just needed someone to talk to every now and again. When I talked to her she was mostly coherent but had just taken her meds and started to trail off towards the end of our conversation. In the background I could hear people shouting and acting out. I barely knew her friend yet she was so happy just to talk to me and was practically begging me to stay on the phone with her and call back another time. She cried when she had to get off the phone. That was depressing enough just talking to her, I can not imagine actually having to be there let alone in an institution for the criminally insane. They don't have to mistreat you. Just being in an environment like that is practically cruel and unusual punishment.

I want to tell a lot of deeply personal stories about life in a psychiatric hospital, but this is the internet and deeply personal stories do not belong on the internet.

There is a drug that is called 'halperidol' and it basically shuts off your brain.

You just sit there and stare off into space, drooling.

Drooling. Lots of that. Because you can't really feel your face. You really can't feel. You just sit there and stare at really nothing for hours and hours and hours and hours, drooling. Until it wears off. Drooling.

You don't daydream because you can't.
You don't think.
This isn't hyperbole, halperidol makes you incapable of producing thought.
You just sort of sit there staring off into space, unable to hold a single coherent thought together for any length of time.
Not even grasping at threads, there is nothing in there, absolutely nothing at all inside you, all you are capable of, physically or mentally, is sitting in a corner, staring at nothing, drooling.

I do not have sufficient words to describe how very, very, intensely unpleasant halperidol is and it is not even close to the strongest drug any mental institution has at their disposal.

Those of you who want this man to be locked in a room forever, I promise you, you are getting your wish.

 

[xvbones]

when did you get your experience of mental health institutions, the 1960s?

1995-1998.

When did you get yours?

 

[Seydaman]

Looking at all that. I'd just like to say, I support the idea of having our prison system focus on helping people who've done wrong rather than just putting them in a box for a set amount of time.

Do prisoners see therapists?

As far as I know, yes, they do get counseling in the facility. The whole point is not to estrange the inmates from normal society by making their life miserable. And so far it has worked. If I remember correctly, the re-offending rate is around 30% lower than in, say, United States. It's a very pragmatic approach to the justice system, and I'm actually in support of that. Result matters more to me than sating my sense of 'justified vengeance' or some such.

As it has been said by many a leader, hate begets hate.