Is there a problem with modern final fantasy story telling at Square Enix?

[dscross]

I think I've slightly lost faith in Square Enix to tell a good story of their own in the FF series, which is why I think it worries some people to let them loose on the FF7 Universe without constraints after the ending. I would like some counter-arguments to prove me wrong, please, so I can have some faith in them.

I'm not counting 95% of the new remake as it's an old SquareSoft story they are using. They've even managed to flesh out large parts of it and made some story elements better. When they don't go off on their own little tangent - when it's allowed to be the FF7 story - it's great.

But more broadly, I've noticed the stories of all the recent single-player Final Fantasy games that they have written themselves have either not been cohesive, been dull / not narratively compelling from a plot perspective, or make you draw on other media to understand them.

FF12 had long drawn out parts. It's a decent game in some respects, but the plot really wasn't very interesting, if we are being honest, compared to their earlier work. It was OK... Just OK. WIth FF13, they had to explain everything via in-game menus, which was a very confusing approach. Annoyingly, the setting was great, but they didn't tell the story properly and expected a lot from the player in terms of background reading. With FF15 they made you watch several different things before you could grasp the story at all. They did the characters brilliantly, but you shouldn't have to watch a series, a film and have all the DLC to enjoy the game's story. That's stupid. And now, with the FF7 Remake, they seem to be making the plot a lot more convoluted and disjointed as soon as they started doing their own thing with it.

I haven't played the MMOs so I can't comment on that.

Square back in the day wrote some great stories for their single-player FF games - from 4 all the way up to 10, I'd say. Sure they ended with ridiculous boss fights against gods or they had a few weird or convoluted plot elements in the middle or whatever, but they kept you hooked all the way through narratively because they earned those moments and they never took away from the core themes or the thrust of the plot.

But these preconceived notions are only based on my knowledge of the FF series so I'd like to be proved wrong with some counterpoints. I don't know what games outside of the FF series that the Square Enix's teams have written and directed that turned out to have amazing narratives. It would be nice to be enlightened on the topic.

 

[stroopwafel]

Well, PS1-era has been widely acknowledged as Square's golden age. So much so that they are still trying to rekindle some of that magic over 20 - 30 years later. Putting Squeenix current output side by side with Squaresoft's classics is kind of an unfair comparison. Game design has changed, the audience has changed, the people who make these games have (mostly) changed. Yeah, I never really experienced the same feeling as playing a Squaresoft RPG in the '90s but I don't really know if it's the games or me myself becoming an old fart. xD

One thing though I definitely liked the character designs of the old games more than these super realistic high-resolution renders. In FF7 Remake I felt constantly in the companion of super attractive cosplayers and it put me out of the game for a bit. It just didn't really mesh for me with some of it's themes and setpieces(in particular where NPC's looked normal). I would prefer either retro-charm or heavily stylized like in Persona. But it's good that characterization is so stellar in FF7R that the cast's personalities really stand out.

I personally really liked FF12. It had a good story but the emphasis was more on the political situation than the characters. At the time it was a nice change of pace from the usual teenage angst. I also enjoyed FF15 even if again those designs just..ugh. Noctis and his posse looked like a trendy boyband and Ardin looked like he fell in clothing dumpster. But after a while you get to notice their charm. The 'road trip' was also nothing but driving in a circle around the lake. But character interactions were great and the way the story unfolded also motivated me enough to keep playing.

Some personal preferences asides though I feel FF7 Remake is definitely the closest they have come re-inventing what made Squaresoft's RPG's so memorable but now with mind blowing modern day production values. Even the 'twist' didn't feel out of place. Squaresoft titles were full of esoteric meta-narratives. That FF7R is now self-aware of it's own legacy only opens up new possibilities in reviving the spirit of the old game.

 

[dscross]

Well, PS1-era has been widely acknowledged as Square's golden age. So much so that they are still trying to rekindle some of that magic over 20 - 30 years later. Putting Squeenix current output side by side with Squaresoft's classics is kind of an unfair comparison. Game design has changed, the audience has changed, the people who make these games have (mostly) changed. Yeah, I never really experienced the same feeling as playing a Squaresoft RPG in the '90s but I don't really know if it's the games or me myself becoming an old fart. xD

Is it an unfair comparison though? The fundamentals of storytelling don't really change a lot over time, do they - certainly not in the space of a generation? It's just the way the games are designed are. I do enjoy their modern games, I just don't think their stories are very well conveyed to the players at all and they leave out important things you need to do in storytelling. Or they use plot devices that don't really work and confuse things.

 

[stroopwafel]

Is it an unfair comparison though? The fundamentals of storytelling don't really change a lot over time, do they - certainly not in the space of a generation? It's just the way the games are designed are. I do enjoy their modern games, I just don't think their stories are very well conveyed to the players at all and they leave out important things you need to do in storytelling. Or they use plot devices that don't really work and confuse things.

Yeah, but I think the way the games are designed is precisely the reason why the story can't be more concise. The original FF7 moved much faster because assets were both easier and much, much cheaper to create. Now it's probably a month of work just to create Cloud's shoes. In the end I think it's just impossibe to expect everything. High-end graphics and production values just create their own set of limitations. Probably also the reason why moden games rely on busywork so much.

 

[dscross]

Yeah, but I think the way the games are designed is precisely the reason why the story can't be more concise. The original FF7 moved much faster because assets were both easier and much, much cheaper to create. Now it's probably a month of work just to create Cloud's shoes. In the end I think it's just impossibe to expect everything. High-end graphics and production values just create their own set of limitations. Probably also the reason why moden games rely on busywork so much.

There is definitely some truth to that but I think some of it is perhaps just about how you tell it, whatever constraints you are working with. FF10 had pretty high graphical fidelity and that had a good story - though admittedly a PS2 game probably doesn't take as long to make as a PS4 game. I, personally, wasn't a fan of some of the gameplay elements in that one but I can't deny it had a really good narrative.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Square Enix for some reason feels the need to up the fantasticalness (if that's even a word) with each new entry. You can see it in how the games get more and more stupidly crazy as the franchise goes on. Which is how we ended up with Final Fantasy 13 where nothing makes any fucking sense and you can't tell up from down. FF7R felt so refreshing, because it was relatively simple; Characters have motivations that are clear and easy to understand, and the world is simple to parse. Roads look like roads, cars like cars, and things overall look practical.

Square was confined by the style of the original game and it meant the remake didn't suffer from current Square BS.. until the end ofcourse. Can't just have the story be a good story, no, it needs something crazy and super 'out there', because this is Final Fantasy.

 

[BrawlMan]

Square Enix for some reason feels the need to up the fantasticalness (if that's even a word) with each new entry. You can see it in how the games get more and more stupidly crazy as the franchise goes on. Which is how we ended up with Final Fantasy 13 where nothing makes any fucking sense and you can't tell up from down. FF7R felt so refreshing, because it was relatively simple; Characters have motivations that are clear and easy to understand, and the world is simple to parse. Roads look like roads, cars like cars, and things overall look practical.

Square was confined by the style of the original game and it meant the remake didn't suffer from current Square BS.. until the end ofcourse. Can't just have the story be a good story, no, it needs something crazy and super 'out there', because this is Final Fantasy.

This. They go so over-the-top just for the sake of being over-the-top or weird. That nothing really stands out of than it being batshit insane. Aside from final fantasy 7, 8, and a remake of the first and second game, I never cared much for the series. Hell, most RPGs I didn't get into that much. My favorite RPG from PS1 days was always Parasite Eve. If there is any game aside from ff7 that needs a proper remake or reboot, it's that title. Especially the way square enix treats it like an abused foster kids. We do not talk about the 3rd Birthday.

 

[Samtemdo8]

I just want to say that Cecil is by far the best Final Fantasy Protagonist.

 

[Hawki]

FF7R felt so refreshing, because it was relatively simple; Characters have motivations that are clear and easy to understand, and the world is simple to parse. Roads look like roads, cars like cars, and things overall look practical.

So, this is coming from an almost complete outsider to the series (only played FF10), but couldn't FF7 be considered part of that transition? I mean, this is a setting where swords remain viable weapons against guns, and also, as far as I can tell, takes a step into sci-fi whereas up to that point, the games up to that point used a Euro-Fantasy template.

 

[dscross]

So, this is coming from an almost complete outsider to the series (only played FF10), but couldn't FF7 be considered part of that transition? I mean, this is a setting where swords remain viable weapons against guns, and also, as far as I can tell, takes a step into sci-fi whereas up to that point, the games up to that point used a Euro-Fantasy template.

Kind of yeah, except just before that FF6 was a steampunk setting with lots of futuristic elements as well as 'euro-fantasy' magical ones. Magitek armour is one of the defining things about that game, for example, which combined both. There weren't any cars or anything though and there were still castles etc. Lots of it was also sort of industrial revolution-esk. But I suppose that was a step in that direction also.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I mean I know people like to shit on FF13 and as far as the story goes with that particular game, I would agree.

However I have had no problem with the storytelling in every other FF game. Even if you ignore FF 1-9 (the non-Voiced era) there hasn't been a bad story in an FF game except for 13 imo. X's story was great, XII cheats a little by basically being Star Wars but it's not poorly told, XIV has gotten a lot of praise for not only being a good story but also being a good story in an MMO. XV has a little bit of narative flow issues, but I thought that story was great and it only got better with the Royal Edition in which they fixed a lot of the flow in the narative and added a ton to the game.

And FF7R is fucking brilliant and I don't give a shit what people think. Have you're bias towards Nomura, or a huge sticky hard-on for the original story, but it doesn't change that what they've done in the Remake is absolutely amazing. Especially if you wanna deep dive into the game and you realize what it all means, it's just awesome.

Which by the way Japan just got a 756-page FF7 Remake Behind the Scenes book with tons of art and interviews, but they did confirm in the book that the main plot of FF7 will remain mostly in-line with the original game, however they are also trying to get a little "meta" with the story to give original games fans something to surprise them as they play. I 100% agree with this mindset because as a fan of the original I loved being surprised by the extras and the changes.

Ultimately where is "modern" Square actually going wrong with storytelling? Final Fantasy 14 is great, 15 was good (great once fixed, but they DID fix it so credit there), and FF7R is great.

No company is perfect nor will they release 10/10 games every single time. So over course there are going to be ups and downs with any series. The consideration needs to be made is how you view a FF game that has a good story as a good story is going to feel bad when most other FF games have GREAT stories.

I think the only modern example of poor story is with Kingdom Hearts 3, but KH always had a stupid nonsense story. The only reason fans got upset is that there was so much time since the last KH game that people didn't remember how dogshit the story was and KH3 only made them realize that the story always was bullshit. They were just too nostalgic for the series because so much time had passed since a new story came out.

 

[dscross]

Ultimately where is "modern" Square actually going wrong with storytelling? Final Fantasy 14 is great, 15 was good (great once fixed, but they DID fix it so credit there), and FF7R is great.

I really liked FF15 as a game, but not because of its storytelling genius. You have to admit, they made you do a lot of stuff outside of the actual game to get what was going on. I get it now because I've watched everything and done all of the side content, but they didn't convey it well at all. I thought the remake was awesome and I think everyone is saying as much. I don't think people are THAT upset in the main. I think a few people are understandably a bit concerned about the direction at the end as it's very jarring.

I haven't played FF14 as it's an MMO so you'll have to enlighten me on that as I have no idea. I don't do MMOs. I don't like subscriptions.

I'm not for a minute saying these are 'bad games'. I'm clearly a fan of FF - which is why I want them to improve in certain ways! I just think, from a story perspective, they just aren't very self-contained like they used to be. You shouldn't have to do things outside of the game to get what's going on.

This is coming from someone who loves David Lynch films - you don't have a clue what's going on in Mulholland Drive the first time around, but you can actively give it some thought yourself and work it out in your own head. I really don't think it's possible to do that with the way they are telling stories at the moment.

 

[CriticalGaming]

I really liked FF15 as a game, but not because of its storytelling genius. You have to admit, they made you do a lot of stuff outside of the actual game to get what was going on. I get it now because I've watched everything and done all of the side content, but they didn't convey it well at all. I thought the remake was awesome and I think everyone is saying as much. I don't think people are very upset in the main. I think a few people are understandably a bit concerned about the direction at the end as it's very jarring.

I haven't played FF14 as it's an MMO so you'll have to enlighten me on that as I have no idea. I don't do MMOs. I don't like subscriptions.

I'm not for a minute saying these are 'bad games'. I'm clearly a fan of FF - which is why I want them to improve in certain ways! I just think, from a story perspective, they just aren't very self-contained like they used to be. You shouldn't have to do things outside of the game to get what's going on.

This is coming from someone who loves David Lynch films - you don't have a clue what's going on in Mulholland Drive the first time around, but you can actively give it some thought yourself and work it out in your own head. I really don't think it's possible to do that with the way they are telling stories at the moment.

Ok but I never watched any of the movies, or anime for FFXV and I still understood and loved the story. Hell I even cried at the end.

Sure you can say that FF games had better stories back in the day, but that doesn't make today's stories bad. And I really don't think old FF games had great stories either with the exception of 5, 6, and 7. So I just don't get where you are coming from to say that the modern games are bad. What makes them bad? And what makes them worse than the older games in your mind?

I'm not talking about any of these games from a gameplay standpoint, because gameplay was not the point of the thread, I'm exclusively refering to only narative with everything I've said in this, and my previous post. So my feelings towards actual gameplay are being left out. Just to keep it all fair.

 

[dscross]

Ok but I never watched any of the movies, or anime for FFXV and I still understood and loved the story. Hell I even cried at the end.

Sure you can say that FF games had better stories back in the day, but that doesn't make today's stories bad. And I really don't think old FF games had great stories either with the exception of 5, 6, and 7. So I just don't get where you are coming from to say that the modern games are bad. What makes them bad? And what makes them worse than the older games in your mind?

I'm not talking about any of these games from a gameplay standpoint, because gameplay was not the point of the thread, I'm exclusively refering to only narative with everything I've said in this, and my previous post. So my feelings towards actual gameplay are being left out. Just to keep it all fair.

I'm surprised you managed to understand everything that was going on in FF15 without doing any of the DLC or watchable stuff. Maybe I'm just not intelligent enough to get the world then without the other knowledge. But I didn't have a problem with any of the others (up until FF13).

I don't think that's fair on 4, 8, 9 or 10 to say they didn't have good stories and settings. They were pretty well-paced, you knew exactly what was going on without having to refer back to anything else, and they introduced you to everything slowly with a build-up until the end. And they felt pretty epic on top of that. They were similar to 7 in that respect.

FF12 up until 15 (I don't know about the MMOs as I said) I already said why I didn't think they had great stories in the OP. I don't think they ever do a bad job with the characters. That wasn't really my argument. I think they are good at characterisation and coming up with settings /worlds. They just seem to have gotten worse at getting the actual plot across to players in a meaningful way, in my opinion.

 

[CriticalGaming]

FF12 up until 15 (I don't know about the MMOs as I said) I already said why I didn't think they had great stories in the OP. I don't think they ever do a bad job with the characters. That wasn't really my argument. I think they are good at characterisation and coming up with settings /worlds. They just seem to have gotten worse at getting the actual plot across to players in a meaningful way, in my opinion.

That's fine to have that opinion i guess. But you still haven't told me why you feel that way. What about those stories feels hard to get across to you? (Let's ignore 13 for this because everyone pretty much agrees that the story there was trash but everything about that game was wack).

Because frankly I just can't agree, I had no problem following FF15, or 12, or 7R. So I just don't see what about the delivery of those plots lost you. But everyone absorbs story differently so I can't really speak to your experience. All I can say is that following the plots weren't tough for me, but I pay very close attention to games and stories when I play games so that might be the difference. Also I tend to binge a game, playing it through until the end in fairly close sittings. Perhaps if you take the game too slowly, or have gaps between play times can cause you to forget plot elements and thus wind up confused?

 

[dscross]

That's fine to have that opinion i guess. But you still haven't told me why you feel that way. What about those stories feels hard to get across to you? (Let's ignore 13 for this because everyone pretty much agrees that the story there was trash but everything about that game was wack).

Because frankly I just can't agree, I had no problem following FF15, or 12, or 7R. So I just don't see what about the delivery of those plots lost you. But everyone absorbs story differently so I can't really speak to your experience. All I can say is that following the plots weren't tough for me, but I pay very close attention to games and stories when I play games so that might be the difference. Also I tend to binge a game, playing it through until the end in fairly close sittings. Perhaps if you take the game too slowly, or have gaps between play times can cause you to forget plot elements and thus wind up confused?

Well these are only my opinions, obviously, but...

15 - I had no idea what was going on the first time around in terms of certain plot points. I also was lost in terms of Ardyn's relevance until I played his DLC and watched Kingsglave. Those are critical plot points I didn't understand. They didn't properly explain any of the relationships between the main characters. I knew they were friends but their underlying friendship wasn't explained. I only got it through the anime. I also didn't feel like the relationship between Noctis and Lunafreya was given enough air time without watching the anime episode dedicated to her. All this should have been conveyed in a digestible way in the game and I didn't feel it was. There are other examples but that's just off the top of head. It's different when you get it all, and the plot becomes more obvious, looking back. But I really don't think it's friendly from a plot perspective. The first half of the game is just about exploring the open world until that bit where it suddenly goes linear and then the plot picks up the pace.

7R - I got it, but only because I understand the original story. But it's just ending really I felt wasn't put across well - and the whispers. It's very jarring and doesn't really fit with any of the themes and characters explored throughout the game or the plot up that point. Or if it is it's not subtle enough for that point in the game. It feels like a remake but a sequel at the same time and I personally don't think it feels like it works cohesively? It might come to bite them later on unless they reverse and go back to how the original was. I imagine the reason why some people have warmed to it is because they've googled 'what did the end of FF7R mean' and then they've got interested in it that way and the debate itself has got them excited. But I wouldn't class it as amazing storytelling. But hopefully, I'm wrong as I really want it to be good and for them not to fuck it up. FF7 is not my favourite FF game however so it's not about that. I just want them to get good at basic storytelling again.

12 - It's a slightly different problem in that this is the only one where I don't actually think they did a great job with the characters and I felt the whole thing dragged. I do like politics in stories and I like mature plots. This plot though... I just didn't find very entertaining. Maybe that's more subjective, but I didn't feel invested in the world by the end at all. The story felt like a grind to me. It's all about politics, - but not in an epic way. There's no romance and nothing threatening the world (from what I remember). Vaan feels pretty insignificant. No one in your party has any particular kind of dark secret they're hiding. Nobody has much personality in general and none of the other characters really stand out. I also didn't find the main villain very enthralling. It's just a 'meh' sort of story. It's not awful. But not great either.

 

[Dalisclock]

Kind of yeah, except just before that FF6 was a steampunk setting with lots of futuristic elements as well as 'euro-fantasy' magical ones. Magitek armour is one of the defining things about that game, for example, which combined both. There weren't any cars or anything though and there were still castles etc. Lots of it was also sort of industrial revolution-esk. But I suppose that was a step in that direction also.

And Final Fantasy 5 had a clockpunk/early steampunk thing going. It's honestly kind of a facinating transition to watch. Clockpunk->Steampunk->Dieselpunk->Whatever 8 is and then back to kind of a Steampunkish in 9.

 

[CriticalGaming]

And Final Fantasy 5 had a clockpunk/early steampunk thing going. It's honestly kind of a facinating transition to watch. Clockpunk->Steampunk->Dieselpunk->Whatever 8 is and then back to kind of a Steampunkish in 9.

Plus Final Fantasy as ALWAYS had sci-fi elements in the games. Warmech is literally a robot that acts like a super boss from FF1. So FF games have always had some kind of "punk" to them.

 

[CaitSeith]

The main difference I have seen is how in the early games the level how convolutedness and info dump was eased on at the beginning, and ramped up once the player was more familiar with the World. I disagree with that you have to watch several different things before you could grasp FF15 story at all tho (compared to FF13's story if you don't read the lore entries).

 

[CriticalGaming]

The main difference I have seen is how in the early games the level how convolutedness and info dump was eased on at the beginning, and ramped up once the player was more familiar with the World. I disagree with that you have to watch several different things before you could grasp FF15 story at all tho (compared to FF13's story if you don't read the lore entries).

Oh god please don't talk about the Lore entries in 13. I still have nightmares. Lol