Is there a problem with modern final fantasy story telling at Square Enix?

dscross

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The main difference I have seen is how in the early games the level how convolutedness and info dump was eased on at the beginning, and ramped up once the player was more familiar with the World. I disagree with that you have to watch several different things before you could grasp FF15 story at all tho (compared to FF13's story if you don't read the lore entries).
Yeah, I do agree that 13 was a lot worse story-wise than 15 in terms of explanations.

I think you can get what was going on roughly in 15 without doing anything but if you don't watch and do certain things there's no way you can understand most character motivations or anything like that or really properly get what's going on with the war etc. Ardyn was also a semi-mystery to me first time around and you have to fight him at the end. Even if you got it it was pretty undercooked without doing extra things. I definitely enjoyed the world a lot more when I'd done all that stuff. My point really is that the earlier FFs didn't need that - you just got engrossed in the story pretty quickly, rather than in an open world.
 
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stroopwafel

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Well these are only my opinions, obviously, but...

15 - I had no idea what was going on the first time around in terms of certain plot points. I also was lost in terms of Ardyn's relevance until I played his DLC and watched Kingsglave. Those are critical plot points I didn't understand. They didn't properly explain any of the relationships between the main characters. I knew they were friends but their underlying friendship wasn't explained. I only got it through the anime. I also didn't feel like the relationship between Noctis and Lunafreya was given enough air time without watching the anime episode dedicated to her. All this should have been conveyed in a digestible way in the game and I didn't feel it was. There are other examples but that's just off the top of head. It's different when you get it all, and the plot becomes more obvious, looking back. But I really don't think it's friendly from a plot perspective. The first half of the game is just about exploring the open world until that bit where it suddenly goes linear and then the plot picks up the pace.
I won't say the plot of FF15 is difficult to understand(it's pretty straightforward) but rather that it drops you in the middle of things with relationships already established. So when certain things ehm..happen they don't have dramatic impact b/c you're both not invested and there is no proper build-up. Other than perhaps the group dynamic of Noctis and his posse. I haven't played the DLC but the anime and Kingslaive in particular is pretty much essential. From what I remember they even use some scenes from that movie in the game.

Having a game not drown in excessive background lore from the start is something they definitely improved in FF7R compared to FF13 and 15. Someone must take years to come up with all this stuff only for very few people to actually take an interest in it. :p But that is also what I think was the problem with FF15 and espescially 13; that it lingered simply too long in the planning phase and had to cut too many corners to introduce the characters, background lore and story. There is tremendous ambition but often it just doesn't really work out.
 
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SilentPony

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Maybe its just me, but I never thought the FF series had good stories. They were all basically the same; small-town spikey haired super soldiers using magic to fight some version of SPACE HITLER and dire chickens exist.
I think there's a lot of nostalgia in this series, but when was the last time any of us replayed FF1 - the one right before this newest "remake" and thought yeah, that stands up and passes the test of time.
 

CaitSeith

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Yeah, I do agree that 13 was a lot worse story-wise than 15 in terms of explanations.

I think you can get what was going on roughly in 15 without doing anything but if you don't watch and do certain things there's no way you can understand most character motivations or anything like that or really properly get what's going on what the war etc. Ardyn was also a semi-mystery to me first time around and you have to fight him at the end. Even if you got it it was pretty undercooked without doing extra things. I definitely enjoyed the world a lot more when I'd done all that stuff. My point really is that the earlier FFs didn't need that - you just got engrossed in the story pretty quickly, rather than in an open world.
Nah. After the uniderectional corridor hell disaster that FF13 was, you can't put the blame on the open world. After all, a big appeal in the original FF was how the world opens at certain points (specifically: repairing the bridge, getting the ship, creating the canal, getting the canoe and getting the airship).
 

dscross

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Nah. After the uniderectional corridor hell disaster that FF13 was, you can't put the blame on the open world. After all, a big appeal in the original FF was how the world opens at certain points (specifically: repairing the bridge, getting the ship, creating the canal, getting the canoe and getting the airship).
I'm not really blaming it on that, it was just an observation of when that particular story picked up in FF15. You can have a story that works in an open world or a linear story and there are plenty of examples of both. It all depends on how you do it.
 
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Casual Shinji

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So, this is coming from an almost complete outsider to the series (only played FF10), but couldn't FF7 be considered part of that transition? I mean, this is a setting where swords remain viable weapons against guns, and also, as far as I can tell, takes a step into sci-fi whereas up to that point, the games up to that point used a Euro-Fantasy template.
Sure. You can see it in Final Fantasy 10 as well. Square kept pushing the crazy fantasy elements further and further until things just lost all sense with FF13. It got so stupid that FF7R - a game where you have motorcycle swordfights and fight a robot house - looks tame by comparison.
 

CriticalGaming

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Maybe its just me, but I never thought the FF series had good stories. They were all basically the same; small-town spikey haired super soldiers using magic to fight some version of SPACE HITLER and dire chickens exist.
I think there's a lot of nostalgia in this series, but when was the last time any of us replayed FF1 - the one right before this newest "remake" and thought yeah, that stands up and passes the test of time.
I played FF1 last year. To an extend you are correct. FF does not tell the best stories out of all of gaming. But for their time, and the media in which they exist, FF games have told incredible stories that got more and more elaborate over time.

That might actually be the biggest downfall of FF-storytelling, they continuously have tried to 1-up the previous game or other games that appeared in the same time frame and they simply couldn't keep up.

FF games peaked around 6 or 7, but then other companies started to take video game story telling more and more seriously and we starting seeing things like Fallout, SWTOR, MetalGear Solid, etc.

Maybe that's just the nature of Japanese story-telling in general. As time has gone on, they always tend to get more and more bonkers with their shit. Name me any anime that lasts longer than 3 or 4 seasons that doesn't start losing it's fucking mind. The same thing for nearly all japanese video games. The Japanese story tellers always find a way to start with a fantastic idea and premise.......then ultimately take it too far.

Look at Kojima now. Metal Gear got fucking loony, Death's Stranding is a giant piece of nonsense. Resident Evil started crazy and somehow even lost that fucking plot until they rebooted that shit.

Maybe this whole thing is just an issue with the way Japan tells it's stories in a modern era.
 

BrawlMan

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Maybe its just me, but I never thought the FF series had good stories. They were all basically the same; small-town spikey haired super soldiers using magic to fight some version of SPACE HITLER and dire chickens exist.
Uuhhh... You're really only describing 7. if you go back and play all the old final fantasys before 7, almost none of them had spiky hair. Plus, there are other jrpgs that were doing it, before Cloud did. All Cloud did was spikethe popularity of it. Crono Trigger & some of the dragon quest games beat him to the punch.
 

dscross

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I played FF1 last year. To an extend you are correct. FF does not tell the best stories out of all of gaming. But for their time, and the media in which they exist, FF games have told incredible stories that got more and more elaborate over time.
Did you enjoy the story of FF1? I like them from 4 but I never felt captivated in the same way by the first 3. I've only played the NES version though.
 

CriticalGaming

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Did you enjoy the story of FF1? I like them from 4 but I never felt captivated in the same way by the first 3. I've only played the NES version though.
I mean it's a NES game, you have to lower your requirements for "captivating" because I don't think that's fair label to put on any game made before '95.

But yeah I enjoyed FF1. It's a bare bones "childhood fantasy" go be the hero, save thelands from the four demons. Whatever it's fine.
 

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Probably? I have been on and off with this series since every game is completely different from another.

Like I think X's story is fine but it ended making my depression really bad that I refuse to even touch again. X-2 was just Charlie's Angels and while I don't remember much of the story other than finding Tidus again I do remember it was a massive tonal shift from the first game. XII wasn't too interesting in many ways; It goes on for hours about politics that I lose interest in everything and Vaan isn't even involved with the plot. And XIII was a mess that was trying to recreate FF7 and more. After XIII I haven't revisited any FF game until FF7R. I think FF7R does a few story issues but it feels competent at story telling? I'm still process what I've played. If anything I don't like how its trying to both try to setup a sequel while cramming in stuff to make it more epic like Sephiroth. Again I'm still processing everything. I will say that while it does have anime bullshit, its not towards Kingdom Hearts level of writing which I think where this fear of bad writing came from. People don't want the DARKNESS to leak into Final Fantasy but its more restrained, even if its still convoluted.

At the end of the day I just wanna play with my chocobos. That's all I want Square!
 

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Maybe its just me, but I never thought the FF series had good stories.
I have only played FF10 and FF12 to the end and neither had good stories. I don't get how people like FF10 at all, the characters and story sucked and the gameplay is like the most simplistic turned-based combat you could design. FF12 was just boring for the most part. I did like Balthier and Fran and really just wanted to participate in their adventures that seemed so much better than the one I was on. I played FF6 until the world changes, I just couldn't take the gameplay anymore, I don't have much memory of the story though, I don't think I was really digging it or hating it as I would probably remember it more if it was one of those extremes. And, I watched that Kingsglaive movie that's part of FF15 and that was the most boring action-packed thing I've ever seen. There's a reason it has a 12% on Rottentomatoes, it's hot garbage. After watching that, I lost complete interest in FF15 the game.
 

dscross

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I have only played FF10 and FF12 to the end and neither had good stories. I don't get how people like FF10 at all, the characters and story sucked and the gameplay is like the most simplistic turned-based combat you could design. FF12 was just boring for the most part. I did like Balthier and Fran and really just wanted to participate in their adventures that seemed so much better than the one I was on. I played FF6 until the world changes, I just couldn't take the gameplay anymore, I don't have much memory of the story though, I don't think I was really digging it or hating it as I would probably remember it more if it was one of those extremes. And, I watched that Kingsglaive movie that's part of FF15 and that was the most boring action-packed thing I've ever seen. There's a reason it has a 12% on Rottentomatoes, it's hot garbage. After watching that, I lost complete interest in FF15 the game.
What specifically didn't you like about 10's story, out of curiosity? My gripe with that game was more to do with gameplay and the fact that large parts of it felt like you were just going down a corridor until later on. But I thought the story itself was reasonably well written. With you on 12 though. Not so much 6 as I love that story.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Yes, and that problem is Kazushige Nojima, good friends with Tetsuya "Belts and Zippers" Nomura. The two of them are in charge of the writing and creative decisions of most every FF property now, and they're hacks. I think the only one of the games you didn't like that they weren't apart of was XII, which was done by the people behind Tactics. As a side note I also disagree, XII has a great story, but only with the caveat that you ignore Vaan (as the cast does). That misstep was due to executive meddling in needing a teenage protagonist.
 

meiam

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I don't think you can blame the increase complexity of the game for the poor storytelling. PS1 game were a lot more complex than SNES game which were a lot more complex than NES game, yet the storytelling only became richer over time (or at least didn't become worse). I'd argue jumping from SNES era (2D) to PS1 era (3D) is a much bigger jump in game complexity than PS1 to even PS4.

As far as specific:

12: It had some cool idea, but it was just too spaced out and not focused enough. I remember partway trough the game you have to get a sword to cut crystal, but no one ever tell you why you even need it (and it turns out you don't). Then later on some ghost things shows up out of nowhere and are never really explained. What happen to the story of plucky rebel retaking their country from invader? Plus most of the cast had literally no reason to be in game, shamefully including the main character (later on there's some scene where important plot element are being discussed and he's literally in the background playing with rocks or something). The setting is also woefully underused, it's world with plenty of non human humanoid yet 5/6 of the party are human.

13: Jesus Christ WTF happened there? I could go on and on, but whose bright idea was it to have the main character literally do exactly what the bad guys want, including at the very end of the game? The bad guys of FF13 literally win because the main character are too stupid to understand that when god Hitler tell you to press the "kill everyone" button, you shouldn't do that. Also most of the game is just wandering around trough random area that have no logical connection to each others and don't have any story purpose anyway. Oh and you have to read a light novel to understand it (both figuratively in the sense that you need to read a bunch of data entry and literally in the sense that there's a light novel with key plot point in it).

15: Having learn nothing from FF13, they decided to double down on the "package the story separately idea" and you get no character development in the game. This leaves some baffling moment, like when the main character love interest is the in the game literally less than 5 minutes, making her eventual death un impactfull (I had more attachment to the random guy who work at the dinner next to Cid garage since I at least interacted with him a couple of time). To compound this problem, her death serves practically no purpose (you only see leviathan once later on and any other summon would have been just has useful) and it also ended up destroying an entire town, probably killing thousands of peoples and making the rest of them homeless. Making her a bigger villain than the actual bad guys. The best part of the game is without a doubt the road trip aspect, but this parts has nothing to do with the actual story and once the story starts for real, the road trips aspect disappear with it. Oh and along with it all the main character become whinny emo downer, so you know, good bye fun interaction between them, welcome blame shifting.
 

SilentPony

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I have only played FF10 and FF12 to the end and neither had good stories. I don't get how people like FF10 at all, the characters and story sucked and the gameplay is like the most simplistic turned-based combat you could design. FF12 was just boring for the most part. I did like Balthier and Fran and really just wanted to participate in their adventures that seemed so much better than the one I was on. I played FF6 until the world changes, I just couldn't take the gameplay anymore, I don't have much memory of the story though, I don't think I was really digging it or hating it as I would probably remember it more if it was one of those extremes. And, I watched that Kingsglaive movie that's part of FF15 and that was the most boring action-packed thing I've ever seen. There's a reason it has a 12% on Rottentomatoes, it's hot garbage. After watching that, I lost complete interest in FF15 the game.
I played 1, 2 on my old Gameboy, 3/6 on Snes and Steam and one of the online ones, and FF13 and not one of them ever had a good story or compelling characters. I have a soft spot for 3/6 'cause it was technically my first FF, RPG and SNES game, but I won't pretend its goofy and melodramatic and doesn't hold up in the slightest to honest scrutiny.

Also I did watch I think the tie-in FF7 movie, but I only remember Cloud on a cyberbike and nothing else.

As I said I'm not convinced Final Fantasy games ever did story well. Or at the least never did story well as far as the player is aware. I'm sure in-universe its very compelling and most people don't need 45+mins of flashbacks to explain space magic.
 

SilentPony

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Uuhhh... You're really only describing 7. if you go back and play all the old final fantasys before 7, almost none of them had spiky hair. Plus, there are other jrpgs that were doing it, before Cloud did. All Cloud did was spikethe popularity of it. Crono Trigger & some of the dragon quest games beat him to the punch.


FF6, which I understand it comes before 7, though its Japanese so who knows?!
 

meiam

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I played 1, 2 on my old Gameboy, 3/6 on Snes and Steam and one of the online ones, and FF13 and not one of them ever had a good story or compelling characters. I have a soft spot for 3/6 'cause it was technically my first FF, RPG and SNES game, but I won't pretend its goofy and melodramatic and doesn't hold up in the slightest to honest scrutiny.

Also I did watch I think the tie-in FF7 movie, but I only remember Cloud on a cyberbike and nothing else.

As I said I'm not convinced Final Fantasy games ever did story well. Or at the least never did story well as far as the player is aware. I'm sure in-universe its very compelling and most people don't need 45+mins of flashbacks to explain space magic.
Not sure which 1, 2 you're refereing to, but if you're talking about the old grey gameboy, those weren't final fantasy game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Fantasy_Legend). They were marketed as such in the west but they were actually from the saga franchise, which isn't exactly know for having amazing story. The FF7 movie also has a pretty terrible story, even if your familiar with FF7, it was more of tech demo than anything. So it seems like you've barely played any of them.
 

SilentPony

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Not sure which 1, 2 you're refereing to, but if you're talking about the old grey gameboy, those weren't final fantasy game (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Fantasy_Legend). They were marketed as such in the west but they were actually from the saga franchise, which isn't exactly know for having amazing story. The FF7 movie also has a pretty terrible story, even if your familiar with FF7, it was more of tech demo than anything. So it seems like you've barely played any of them.
No no, I mean this one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_(video_game) with the wizard and 'Welcome to Cornelia" "I like swords" stuff.
Came to the Gameboy advanced in 04 in a package with FF2 and apparently new dungeons and enemies
 

Drathnoxis

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12 - It's a slightly different problem in that this is the only one where I don't actually think they did a great job with the characters and I felt the whole thing dragged. I do like politics in stories and I like mature plots. This plot though... I just didn't find very entertaining. Maybe that's more subjective, but I didn't feel invested in the world by the end at all. The story felt like a grind to me. It's all about politics, - but not in an epic way. There's no romance and nothing threatening the world (from what I remember). Vaan feels pretty insignificant. No one in your party has any particular kind of dark secret they're hiding. Nobody has much personality in general and none of the other characters really stand out. I also didn't find the main villain very enthralling. It's just a 'meh' sort of story. It's not awful. But not great either.
I couldn't stand 12 either. It took me 3 tries, I think, to force myself through the entire game. It was all so dull. Politics, blah blah blah, now run around in a dungeon for an hour while your characters fight monsters for you. The character spent a lot of time holding idiot balls, and I couldn't stand any of the main cast.

If anyone wants to read an entire book analyzing the game, this write up is very good. I think he does actually like the game, but is very critical of it nonetheless. I can only imagine how tedious it would have been to post something like that on our current piddly 10k characters per post forum.