Is this right, or even legal?

[ToastiestZombie]

So a very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons). Those are some pretty good reasons but what he did was still wrong. I'm not here to dwell on the action, i'm here to say about the punishment he was given. The school couldn't suspend him for some reason, and detention would never work on this boy. The punishment the head chose was that he had to clean the toilets for half the school say. It isn't just cleaning the sinks and what not, its cleaning all the toilets, the urine filled urinals and the clogged up sinks (clogged up with god knows what). He has to do this against his will and probably in front of passing kids and teachers. One of the things that saddens me about this kid is that punishment doesn't really affect him in any way shape or form, which basically makes this forced labor that will only worsen the child's view of the school. Sometime after he was told that was his punishment my mother said that he came into the school's support room and burst into tears, he said that all he wanted was his mum back. In my point of view that is probably directly linked to being said that you will have to do the humiliating job of cleaning someones filth.

tl:dr. Messed up kid with a bad home life steals a can of drink. Gets the punishment of cleaning the school toilets for half the school day. Later has a breakdown, crying and pleading for his mum to come back.

So escapees, what do you think of this. Can any people good in law tell me if this type of punishment is even legal in the UK?

[EDIT] Just came to me that in my school, the maximum you can pay for a drink is £1. This kid would never be able to pay that back so the school decided that £1 stolen was enough for him to do hours of labor just because he couldn't pay the school back.

[EDIT numero dos!] To people saying that he will learn that he wont do it again, he wont. My mother has worked with him for a long time and she knows that the only thing that will happen to him is that the next time he does it, he'll try harder not to get caught.

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

 

[BSCCollateral]

I don't know anyone involved in this, but from what you've said...

The little price's palette is too delicate for water, so he stole something, and then he burst into tears when his punishment was to do work any janitor would do? And you think the entitled little snot deserves sympathy?

Is that the gist of it?

 

[imperialus]

Actually, if anyone related to this issue sees this, you or your mother could get into legal trouble, if my Ethics and Law class taught me anything. I'd recommend asking the thread to be locked, if you want to avoid any potential litigation

Yes, this. I can't comment on the legality of it in England but if you were from here in Canada what you're doing is a violation of the Freedom of Information and Privacy act, and that is deadly, career ending, lawsuit starting, bad mojo. I can only assume that England has a similar law on the books.

You say that 'everyone at school' already knows the situation, but do they? All they know is that he's cleaning bathrooms. They don't know why, they don't know about his family life, they don't know he broke down crying in the support center, they don't know a lot of stuff that you do because your mother has shared private, personal information about the student with you. If anyone from your school reads the OP though though they'll be able to connect the dots, and all of a sudden all sorts of stuff that's going on in this students life is going to be out in a junior high rumor mill.

That would suck. I would strongly recommend you go beyond asking the admins to lock the post and instead have them delete the thread. It protects you, it protects your mom and it protects the student. Then you have 2 options. Either ask your mom not to share stuff like this with you in the future, or if she does do so then keep it confidential.

At the end of the day there is absolutely no way the opinions of a bunch of random internet denizens is worth your mom's career.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

No, that's a piss poor, spoiled brat reason.

Yep, this kid sounds like a spoiled brat to me.

Right, how do I get sarcasm tags again?

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Deleted the opening paragraph due to worries about breaching of confidentiality. I know that barely anyone who matters or even cares knows about the Escapist in my school, and even then they probably just lurk. But, better safe than sorry I guess.

 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Something like that definitely would not fly here in Canada.

I went to school in Canada, and they probably would have just hit me. My school had corporal punishment (the strap) until 1988, and might still (I moved away in 1988, so I don't know how long corporal punishment persisted).

Corporal punishment did a great job of discouraging getting caught breaking rules (which itself reduces the rate at which rules get broken).

 

[Belaam]

Meh. He stole. While a little absurd to press charges, legally, the school could have done so. It is possible that he went into the support room crying in an effort to get out of it. (we don't really know)

My school had a student who, on the first day of school, walked into the bathroom and just peed all over everything. He was cleaning bathrooms for a week.

I'm a little concerned about missed instructional time if he was missing lessons to do this, but having to do some cleaning in exchange for theft seems fine to me.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

The hell? Half the school day for a drink that costs £1?
I wonder how much cleaners get paid for half a days work. More than £1 at any rate.
Giving a kid who has a shit home life a job that is likely to humiliate him in front of all the other kids is just really, really fucking stupid.

That made so little sense. It was a punishment. The kid wasn't working to pay back the price of the drink, he was working as a punishment. Should a kid with a shitty life be given special treatment? Wouldn't that encourage him to do it again?

Just a question.

Would it encourage him to do it again? I don't know.

What I do know is that I had a couple of pretty shitty times in my childhood. Not as bad as this kid's, but still bad. And I also know that if someone made me do a humiliating job for what probably feels like a justified and miniscule crime I would have started resenting them pretty quickly.

I wasn't a bad kid, but being treated like shit would have made me into one.

And I also wouldn't be surprised if that kid is beginning to silently hate authority. To him, the people who took him away from his mum and the people who make his life suck harder in school might as well be lumped under 'authority figures' and teaching somebody to hate those in never going to do them any good.


I'm not saying that he should have just been allowed off with no mention of this ever again. But the situation could have been handled soooo much better than this.

 

[M920CAIN]

Sound like a modern Oliver Twist case without the happy ending... I don't believe he deserved the punishment he got.

 

[Kuroneko97]

...Hold one moment while I convert 1 pound into US Dollars.

*Elevator music*

Alright, back. approximately $1.50.

...The fuck? Unless he stole it from a person who DESPERATELY needed that soda...the fuck? It's a fucking can of soda. You can't tell the kid "You're not supposed to steal"? Should have gotten him a counselor.

Fucking educational system...

Off topic, haven't you done a similar topic? Something related to your school doing something shitty...

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

can't say anything about the UK, but in germany and the czech republic, where i spent most of my school years, it wouldn't be legal. in germany there isn't even a detention system. that's right, it's illegal to force students to stay in school for anything that isn't classes in germany. americans have a hard time believing that^^ and still behavior of german students is much better than that of american students for some reason (yes, i can say, i went to school in the u.s. for a year). so this whole punishment-system is seriously flawed somewhere.

that being said: does this guy need to be disciplined in some way? absolutely..

To be honest the social behavior of kids in Europe is much different than that of kids in the USA. I hate to say it, but here in the USA we have a social system that encourages people, both child and adult, to be complete assholes. Not everyone is like that here, but it's kind of our self centered life style that breeds it. In Germany I know that people tend to be more selfless and polite, not sure about the land of Czechs, but I'd bet it's the same.

OT: He stole, when you steal you get a fine, can't pay the fine? Well then you have to work it off with community service. That's how it works here in the State of Nevada. Was the punishment excessive? Not really he did the crime, now he has to do the time. This sort of thing is called preparing a child for the real world. Legal? I don't know but it should be. Heck I bet the Janitorial staff loves this kind of thing, it's less things they have to do.

To put it bluntly a negative physical punishment like caning, or paddling will just make him resent the system. Community service on the other hand will teach him to respect it. It also teaches him that there are consequences for bad choices, and that's an important life lesson. All schools should do this instead of physical punishment, detention, or suspension.

Also about him crying for his mom in the staff room, that sort of thing is called manipulation. He's trying to score sympathy to get out of his punishment, and you shouldn't fall for it. Even if he really was that upset he still needs to pay his debt to society, but the fact he made it a public display screams manipulation. At that point you tell him, I understand you're upset, but you still have to make it right. Getting him to accept his responsibility will probably keep him out of prison later in life. So don't feel too sorry for him, and make sure he understands he did wrong, and now he has to face the music. If you let it slide he could very easily end up in a life of crime.

 

[MegaManOfNumbers]

Well, justice is blind.... and stupid.

"justice" generally is VERY impersonal, never taking in account the persons motivations and history, this is so to prevent liars or fakers from looping around the justice system, but also causes the shitty lives of many people to be EVEN SHITTIER.

 

[viranimus]

Spoiler: Condensed

Snipped for space

How? Because there is no trauma here. Think about it. We are hearing words "inhumane" "humiliation" and "trauma" because someone proposed a kid do half a days worth of manual labor? That is trauma? How? Oh thats right because it isnt trauma. You want trauma? How about handing down a punishment that says "Oh you dont like the taste of free water? Ok, you can drink out of the toilets for a half a day" That would be trauma. Were not talking about a death camp here, were talking about a kid with a scrub brush and gloves cleaning a few toilets. Honestly the kid is STILL getting off easy.

_______________________________________________________

He's not an adult, and such cannot be treated as such since he's a little kid. Your point is irrelevant.

Actually what your missing is that being a kid It is infinitely MORE important for the punishment to be strict.

Seriously, Who here does not understand that the value of what was stolen is 100% completely irrelevant. The whole point of this is to correct an inappropriate behavior so as they wont repeat this mistake, and use this knowledge to become a better person. Either it will work, and that will be the end of it, or it wont, and no sort of corrective action would make a difference anyway.

I will point this out yet again. This punishment is proper.
Anything less than this level of punishment for this action is absolutely no different than telling the kid "what you did is perfectly acceptable behavior"

To do anything less impactful than this is insanely irresponsible. to the point that it is essentially the same thing as child abuse. Your essentially taking a kid who is already on societies edge and pushing him further. .

So ive said what I felt like saying on this. To continue is pointless. I will leave with this.

A: Spare the rod, Spoil the child. Those trying to villianize the punishment because this is "cruel" your alternative would do more harm than good

B: Some times you have to knock someone out to save their life.

 

[Yopaz]

So the punishment made him cry, well as you said yourself detention wouldn't work on him. Beating him is illegal. What he did was illegal. He is punished for it and the punishment is affecting him even though you said it didn't.

I think you need to edit your whole story because it is full of inconsistencies.

The story you're telling is tragic, but it doesn't add up to be honest. All the objective parts are OK, and I agree that the punishment is over the top. I think it's clear the kid needs help, just like most kids in his position.

 

[Sir Prize]

While this punishment may seem harsh, I'd ask if the kid has done it before. We had a group of sixth form who had been stealing food from the cantee, and at first other students said the punishment was harsh. We later found out that it had been a long-term thing. Some of them were supsended for a few days and that's about it.

No offense but having being bullied by a kid from a 'bad background', sometimes they do know how to use it to get away with things. I'm not saying he did, but keep that in mind that kids are very much able to play the 'feel sorry for me' card. However by the sounds of this that might not be the case.

I don't think they should have a kid cleaning toilets unless it's a been a long-term thing, which they have warned him about. If not, then it's just a £1 drink and this school needs to look at their proities.

 

[JPArbiter]

when I was in fifth grade I defaced the cabinet of my principles office after being brought in for some stupid offense (seriously 15 years later I can not remember) My punishment was an entire semester of after school "detentions" doing all sorts of menial tasks including scrubbing toilets, raking leaves and cleaning the outside of lockers.

it sucked, it was thoroughly humiliating, and I admit I deserved it.

in a serious case of "does the punishment fit the crime" I don't think so with this kid. like you said this was a huge amount of forced labor for a 1$ offense. If he was a chronic offender MAYBE this would be justified.

as far as whether or not it is legal, courts in both Britain and the US have repeatedly upheld that when a child walks through the door of thier school, any rights that they had outside are suspended. so while it may not be legal by letter of the law, the school can get away with it.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Considering there is a large number of states that still allow corporal punishment I doubt something like this would be illegal in the US.

Do you live in the US? I've never seen a state the has legal corporal punishment, that is if it isn't outlawed at the federal level. Either way it's just not done any more, and I've never even heard of some one who got corporal punishment at school. Well who wasn't at least as old as my parents(50+) that is.

 

[v3n0mat3]

What he did was wrong, and I say that the punishment was well-deserved. Legally speaking, the school is right to deliver the punishment. I don't think that it befits the crime, but that's really in the eyes of the beholder. Do I believe in corporal punishment? No, but, I wouldn't think that caning the kid would be a bad idea. Though, since he's mentally messed up already, I don't think that it would be a good idea to give out a physical consequence such as caning or flogging. I do sort of feel bad, in a way, since he's so disadvantaged that he can't afford the drink. But, even still, I don't give quarter to anyone that acts out. Especially criminally so.

 

[WaderiAAA]

I don't believe in punishment at schools. Punishment is the lazy way to correct something because you don't have to work yourself, just tell the guilty one to work. You should strive to make your school a place where people don't have to or want to break the rules - like for instance have water that is acctually drinkable.

If the kid is from a functional family, have a talk with his parents, if not... Just talk to the guy basically. If you can talk to him in a way that makes him understand that you care (which you should), then it will have a much better effect.

 

[McMullen]

A very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons). Those are some pretty good reasons but what he did was still wrong. I'm not here to dwell on the action, i'm here to say about the punishment he was given. The school couldn't suspend him for some reason, and detention would never work on this boy. The punishment the head chose was that he had to clean the toilets for half the school say. It isn't just cleaning the sinks and what not, its cleaning all the toilets, the urine filled urinals and the clogged up sinks (clogged up with god knows what). He has to do this against his will and probably in front of passing kids and teachers. One of the things that saddens me about this kid is that punishment doesn't really affect him in any way shape or form, which basically makes this forced labor that will only worsen the child's view of the school. Sometime after he was told that was his punishment my mother said that he came into the school's support room and burst into tears, he said that all he wanted was his mum back. In my point of view that is probably directly linked to being said that you will have to do the humiliating job of cleaning someones filth.

tl:dr. Messed up kid with a bad home life steals a can of drink. Gets the punishment of cleaning the school toilets for half the school day. Later has a breakdown, crying and pleading for his mum to come back.

So escapees, what do you think of this. Can any people good in law tell me if this type of punishment is even legal in the UK?

[EDIT] Just came to me that in my school, the maximum you can pay for a drink is £1. This kid would never be able to pay that back so the school decided that £1 stolen was enough for him to do hours of labor just because he couldn't pay the school back.

[EDIT numero dos!] To people saying that he will learn that he wont do it again, he wont. My mother has worked with him for a long time and she knows that the only thing that will happen to him is that the next time he does it, he'll try harder not to get caught.

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

What would you prefer? Do you think he should be given a slap on the wrist instead? Do you think that an absence of consequences will be more effective than harsh penalties in teaching him not to steal? Do you think they should just humor him and his lame excuses? If you claim you stole soda because you're thirsty, in a place that provides numerous access points for free water, you're a fucking thief and liar and should be treated as such.

Why are you focusing so much on his crying for his mom? This kid, from what you've told us, expects to be able to just take what he wants when he wants. When it turns out that the world doesn't like that and will not respond kindly, it doesn't occur to him to change his behavior, and he instead blames his problems on the cruelty of those whom he has wronged. I am not an expert in sociology or psychology, but I am not optimistic that a kid with that worldview will be anything but a criminal, and I really don't think that pretending his behavior is OK now will change his opinion on how unjust the world is when it punishes him later.