Is this right, or even legal?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I don't believe in punishment at schools. Punishment is the lazy way to correct something because you don't have to work yourself, just tell the guilty one to work. You should strive to make your school a place where people don't have to or want to break the rules - like for instance have water that is acctually drinkable.

If the kid is from a functional family, have a talk with his parents, if not... Just talk to the guy basically. If you can talk to him in a way that makes him understand that you care (which you should), then it will have a much better effect.

Hate to disagree, but talk is cheap. Having an actual punishment dished out says; "these rules aren't just for show." In that regard he does have be made to understand what he did is wrong, and why he's being punished. But just talking about it, especially with a troubled kid isn't going to hammer the point home.

 

[hutchy27]

That wrong, they cannot possibly be allowed to force someone to clean the toilets and especially the ones at a school, which are some of the worst around. Seriously, once at my school there was shit scatter across the wall and piss literally everywhere but the toilet.

That why I go before school. ¬_¬

 

[McMullen]

Stealing is NOT inherently wrong.

...Um, would you care to explain that?

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I live in Canada but I do know that corporal punishment is still legal in some of the southern states. It may not be practiced anymore but its still legal. Its probably similar to what happened in Canda. Even though most provinces banned in during the 90s and the federal government did in 2004 it had already been phased out long before that.

Banned it you meant, sorry my proper speech nazi flared up. Which is funny because I often misspeak and butcher the English language. But that aside. Strong Negative reinforcement is fairly well proven not to work, which is why corporal punishment is phased out. Makes it a sorta blue law in some places if that's the case.

 

[WaderiAAA]

I don't believe in punishment at schools. Punishment is the lazy way to correct something because you don't have to work yourself, just tell the guilty one to work. You should strive to make your school a place where people don't have to or want to break the rules - like for instance have water that is acctually drinkable.

If the kid is from a functional family, have a talk with his parents, if not... Just talk to the guy basically. If you can talk to him in a way that makes him understand that you care (which you should), then it will have a much better effect.

Hate to disagree, but talk is cheap. Having an actual punishment dished out says; "these rules aren't just for show." In that regard he does have be made to understand what he did is wrong, and why he's being punished. But just talking about it, especially with a troubled kid isn't going to hammer the point home.

That's because the point shouldn't be "hammered home", it should be taught - which is something very different.

I truly believe that if the kid thinks his teacher actually cares about him (and it doesn't seem there are enough other people in his life who cares), then the idea that the teacher will be disappointed if you break the rules will affect you more than the prospect of having to clean bathrooms if you get caught. That's just human nature. I don't know if it is something the kids thinks to himself, it might be on a more subconcious level, but I'm pretty sure he thinks "those people don't care about me, why should I care about their rules?"

 

[Abanic]

Is it legal? Ask a lawyer, not the Internet.

Is it right? Yes.

If he had stolen basic sustenance (bread, meat, veggies, water, etc) then most people wouldn't have a problem, because his situation would be taken into account and nothing would come of it. BUT, he did NOT steal a basic necessity of life, he stole a can of soda - a non-necessity. The Jean Valjean argument goes right out the window.

Does the child need to be punished for this action? Of course. So now the issue becomes: what punishment will instill in him the urge to not do this again? If suspension isn't an option, then you look at detention. Detention isn't different enough from his normal life to have any impact on his future decisions, so the school wisely tossed that option out. Did he want to clean? No? Perfect! A punishment can't be something he WANTS to do or else it becomes ineffective. The only thing I would have added to his punishment was a little recorder repeating the message:

"You're being punished because of the decisions you have made."

You add this to reinforce the fact that he was the one who was responsible for what was happening to him at that point: if he hadn't stolen the soda then he wouldn't have to clean toilets. There is a cause/effect relationship here that the child obviously hasn't grasped yet.

The first measure of a punishment needs to be: "IS IT EFFECTIVE?" not "Is it too much?"

Now, should his environment be taken into account to determine if he should be disciplined? Absolutely not. Part of the issue here is that BECAUSE of his environment he has not received adequate discipline. The proper response here is not to give him even less than what little he already received, but to establish a proper level and to maintain consistency to help this child grow into a fully-functioning adult. EVERY child has issue growing up, some have more than others, but the test of a child is to overcome whatever issues they have experienced and become a well-balanced human being.

He burst into tears NOT because he was being punished but because of his life situation. He probably DID want his mommy back, but he needs to get it through his head that it's not gonna happen - no matter how much he misbehaves, cries, screams, or bitches. He needs to understand that he was dealt a tough hand but he has to play it as best as he can. I think ToastiestZombie needs to go scrub some toilets and realize that it's not "degrading" or "humiliating", it's not pleasant but it's a necessity of modern society and somebody has to do it.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

School Cafeterias are literally where all my money used to go to until I decided that it wasn't worth it.

People I know ended up sometimes spending around 80$ a week there.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

That's because the point shouldn't be "hammered home", it should be taught - which is something very different.

I truly believe that if the kid thinks his teacher actually cares about him (and it doesn't seem there are enough other people in his life who cares), then the idea that the teacher will be disappointed if you break the rules will affect you more than the prospect of having to clean bathrooms if you get caught. That's just human nature. I don't know if it is something the kids thinks to himself, it might be on a more subconcious level, but I'm pretty sure he thinks "those people don't care about me, why should I care about their rules?"

The hole in that logic is that most people don't give a damn what others think, that's real human nature. If you can't reinforce the message that the rules are there for a reason then the lesson is not taught. This is especially true with children. If there is no consequence for breaking the rules, or in a broader sense the law, then why even have it? He most certainly committed a crime, theft is against the law, and there fore the punishment makes sense. Sitting him down and talking to him is an important part, especially because he is a child. Still you need a punishment to back up the message. That being: if you break the rules/law then you get punished for it.

 

[hiks89]

...Justice

 

[Robert Ewing]

Serving the community in a certain way to help right the wrong of his destruction of the community is absolutely fucking fine.

I don't give a shit if he cries for 2 years straight, that kid stole, so he has to pay. If he goes through life thinking that he can do this sort of thing, he's going to be far more troubled than he is now unless they put a stop to it, and put him on the straight and narrow.

 

[AlloAllo]

...

That... well, that's kind of complicated.

Now, let me say that if it happened here, the rule would pretty much be "dude, bring the money tomorrow" for a couple of days and then a big shrug followed by a "whatever"- and I went to a private Catholic school, so you can imagine.

Doesn't he have friends? I mean, I spent High School asking my friends some food with the biggest puppy dog eyes ever, surely he could try to use the same approach?

Uh, regarding the issue. Well... yes. Stealing is bad, sure. But that isn't going to teach him anything, other than school sucks and that he will never be able to talk to anyone again lest he be called "Stealy Pee-Spot-Spot". Which is EXACTLY the kind of thing you want to teach to a kid that has problems with people.

I don't know? Talking to him seems a reasonable idea, and if he continues a punishment is the way to go but- all this fucking mess for ONE POUND? Jesus Christ, peope. Tell him that he can't do it and make him bring the money the next day. You incredible wankers.

The hell were they going to do if he destroyed a classroom, shoot him in the face?

 

[WaderiAAA]

That's because the point shouldn't be "hammered home", it should be taught - which is something very different.

I truly believe that if the kid thinks his teacher actually cares about him (and it doesn't seem there are enough other people in his life who cares), then the idea that the teacher will be disappointed if you break the rules will affect you more than the prospect of having to clean bathrooms if you get caught. That's just human nature. I don't know if it is something the kids thinks to himself, it might be on a more subconcious level, but I'm pretty sure he thinks "those people don't care about me, why should I care about their rules?"

The hole in that logic is that most people don't give a damn what others think, that's real human nature. If you can't reinforce the message that the rules are there for a reason then the lesson is not taught. This is especially true with children. If there is no consequence for breaking the rules, or in a broader sense the law, then why even have it? He most certainly committed a crime, theft is against the law, and there fore the punishment makes sense. Sitting him down and talking to him is an important part, especially because he is a child. Still you need a punishment to back up the message. That being: if you break the rules/law then you get punished for it.

Okay, so I guess we disagree on the whole human nature thing.

Your statement that people really don't care what other people thinks is kinda contradicted by the fact that you care to reply to something a guy on the internet who you don't know at all has to say. If someone don't care what other people think about them, then it is usually because they don't feel like people give a damn. Sadly, that is often the case, but it can also be changed at any point. If not, this kid will never feel included in society and will end up having a really miserable life. Punishment won't stop him from criminal activities, because there is always the chance that he just doesn't get caught - and what does he have to lose?

 

[Palindromemordnilap_v1legacy]

Seems like a fair punishment to me. He needs to accept responsibility for his actions rather than just pointing a finger at his broken family and getting away scot free. If he thinks he can just get away with anything he wants because mommy doesn't love him, its just going to get worse

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Serving the community in a certain way to help right the wrong of his destruction of the community is absolutely fucking fine.

I don't give a shit if he cries for 2 years straight, that kid stole, so he has to pay. If he goes through life thinking that he can do this sort of thing, he's going to be far more troubled than he is now unless they put a stop to it, and put him on the straight and narrow.

Well even though I'm not a follower of the "straight and narrow" philosophy, you make a good point. You have to live within the law. You are absolutely right, for a crime like theft, community service is perfect. What it comes down to is he screwed up, broke the law, paid his debt to society, and he'll get over it. Hell he'll learn an important lesson from it.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Okay, so I guess we disagree on the whole human nature thing.

Your statement that people really don't care what other people thinks is kinda contradicted by the fact that you care to reply to something a guy on the internet who you don't know at all has to say. If someone don't care what other people think about them, then it is usually because they don't feel like people give a damn. Sadly, that is often the case, but it can also be changed at any point. If not, this kid will never feel included in society and will end up having a really miserable life. Punishment won't stop him from criminal activities, because there is always the chance that he just doesn't get caught - and what does he have to lose?

It's not because I care, it's because it's a stimulating discussion.

His freedom, his record or trustworthiness, and various other things that come from being convicted. That's what he has to lose, and this is where I agree with you. You need to teach someone that people are there who do care, and that they just destroy themselves, at the cost of those who love them. But with out a punishment to make the consequence real, that also steers said person in the wrong direction. Having a serious real world consequence says; "hey this sucked, I should avoid this in the future." Both parts are equally important in rehabilitation. With out the emotional side someone could easily care less. However with out the punishment there isn't any real consequence to breaking the law/rules.

Edit: Crap! Double post... Sorry guys... ^^;;

 

[AlloAllo]

...God, you people would get crazy if you were to spend a month in our schools XDDDDDD


"Hm. Hey, dude, can I get a slice of pizza?"
"Of course! One euro."
"Aaah... Listen, I'll pay you tomorrow."
"Sure thing, I'll add it to your account then."
*beat*
*Laughter*
"See ya tomorrow, dude."
"See ya. Thanks for the food."

 

[WaderiAAA]

Okay, so I guess we disagree on the whole human nature thing.

Your statement that people really don't care what other people thinks is kinda contradicted by the fact that you care to reply to something a guy on the internet who you don't know at all has to say. If someone don't care what other people think about them, then it is usually because they don't feel like people give a damn. Sadly, that is often the case, but it can also be changed at any point. If not, this kid will never feel included in society and will end up having a really miserable life. Punishment won't stop him from criminal activities, because there is always the chance that he just doesn't get caught - and what does he have to lose?

It's not because I care, it's because it's a stimulating discussion.

His freedom, his record or trustworthiness, and various other things that come from being convicted. That's what he has to lose, and this is where I agree with you. You need to teach someone that people are there who do care, and that they just destroy themselves, at the cost of those who love them. But with out a punishment to make the consequence real, that also steers said person in the wrong direction. Having a serious real world consequence says; "hey this sucked, I should avoid this in the future." Both parts are equally important in rehabilitation. With out the emotional side someone could easily care less. However with out the punishment there isn't any real consequence to breaking the law/rules.

Edit: Crap! Double post... Sorry guys... ^^;;

As much as I'd love to continue this discussion, like for instance try to define what a "real consequence" is, it is getting really late in my time zone, so I think I'll call it a night.

 

[Sir Thomas Sean Connery]

Stealing is NOT inherently wrong.

...Um, would you care to explain that?

It is my belief that blanket statements ALWAYS have an exception and the statement that "Stealing is wrong" falls under this.

Who is stealing? Who is being stolen from? Who needs it more? Who really earned it? Who would do better with it? What good might come out of one person or the other having it?

All of these things (and more) must be factored in when deciding whether an act is wrong or not.

Yes, stealing is [i/]usually[/i] wrong, but in some cases it may not be. Thus, we CANNOT conclude that stealing is always, and inherently, wrong.

 

[Fbuh]

They did a similar thing to me when I was 10. Someone had pisse don the toilet seat before I went in, and I really had to pee, so I went. I aimed perfectly, didn't even dribble, and finished my business. The teachers blamed me for the piss seat, even though I told tehm taht it was already there. They told me that I should have come out to tell them about it first, and then they made me clean the entire toilet. My mother raised all the demons of Hell in the school office that day.

So, from personal experience, I can say that it is not fair, as you don't know if any other kids have some sort of transferrable sickness. It's not a child's job to clean toilets (unless he of course did make the mess), and the punishment does not fit the crime. I went to school in the US, by the by.

 

[direkiller]

Considering there is a large number of states that still allow corporal punishment I doubt something like this would be illegal in the US.

Do you live in the US? I've never seen a state the has legal corporal punishment, that is if it isn't outlawed at the federal level. Either way it's just not done any more, and I've never even heard of some one who got corporal punishment at school. Well who wasn't at least as old as my parents(50+) that is.

Open hand on the butt is leagle in Ohio
sorry i dont know any outer state laws

federal level i don't think there is any