Is this right, or even legal?

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Does he need emotional and moral support? Hell yes!

Is his broken home a good enough excuse to let a real world crime off easy? NO!

It could have been handled better in only one real way, that would have been to have real talk with him. Still a 1 pound can of soda, or a 40 pound note from the register, it's still theft. In the real world that kind of thing can land you with hundreds or thousands of dollars worth of fines, which translate to either jail, or a ton of community service. This was at least a good example to the kid that this is how the real world works. Still someone should have sat down with him and given him a long talk, and a shoulder to cry on. Also to your point, try being transgendered, even with both parents I went through hell.

I respect your post for admitting he should receive help, but there are some issues I find with other sources you pointed out. Yes, it does suck that your parents judged you along with making you go through harsh times because you are transgendered (which I have nothing against), but does that excuse what happened to him? Does that mean because perhaps you had it worse, that the kid's dramatic life doesn't matter?

Plus, reality is reality but it could be much better. Society is corrupted, and rather then giving him a fair warning or least doing something reasonable, they're making the child do very dirty labor in public adding onto humiliation without showing a bit of care for his reasons on why stealing just a can. Like I also mentioned, it's a child. If he was 18, stealing a car then yes your post is very accurate. However, he's younger and only stole a can that is cheaper then perhaps buying one pencil. He only stole it because there's nothing left for him to try and do. He's poor, (which isn't an excuse) BUT with such bad influencing parents... the source of the problem isn't the boy but his mother who drinks constantly while being a bad mother. You can't blame someone when they've got no one to help with their mentality in the first place.

So again, though I am actually sorry you faced a lot of issues, you should relate more with the child and understand his pain rather then thinking this punishment will actually help him. Imagine if a school made you clean up filthy bathrooms all because you're transgendered. That's messed up, you would agree yes? So same case, because it could be avoided and dealt with differently.

Here where I live, Nevada. If a kid commits the crime of theft, and said kid gets caught they are fined. Not just the amount of what the stole, but what ever the law prescribes the fine for such crimes to be. If I remember it right you can get a fine of hundreds or thousands of dollars for theft here. That translates to jail or hours upon hours of hours of community service.

What they actually did wasn't that horrible, he had to work for three hours to pay his debt, not 10 not 50 not 100 but a mere 3 hours. They could have done a lot worse to the kid, and I'm betting his broken family life helped him out in that respect. They could easily have had him arrested, pressed charges, and expelled him. They didn't they told him to pay off his debt to society, and he did. The shameful part was that on one gave him emotional support.

Now my parents were really good to me, but that didn't change the fact that my transgenderism made other people treat me like shit. I did have to clean toilets, and every thing else in the eight grade wing when I came to school cross dressed the first time. But despite my horrible social status I toughed it out, and I came back the next day in a skirt. Well the principal and dean both personally apologized to me, when they finally started to under stand, and the whole issue further complicated my school life. But I made do with what I had.

To be honest, with this kid he needs guidance, and a firm hand. Even the original poster said detention hadn't worked for him. That implies he had a lot of misbehavior in his past, and the more you act out like that, well the worse the punishments get. To an extent he did deserve it, but he deserved better too. The whole crux of the issue is that with out the discipline the emotional support is worthless, and visa versa. Still he pretty much got a slap on the wrist. His public display of tears was at the very minimum a cry for the attention he desperately needs. At the worst he was trying to gain sympathy with crocodile tears. Either way the punishment was fair, a lot more fair then he'd get in the real world. Still this school seems to lack guidance.

 

[The Lugz]

A very troublesome and messed up kid had stolen a can of drink from our cafeteria. He's in foster care because his dad left him and his mother is a raging alcoholic (although sober for a few months she couldn't go back to the kid), so pretty much hes a messed up kid. His reasons for stealing the can were that he was thirsty, didn't have any money (for obvious reasons)

bad parenting
children should have what they need to complete a day's work, that includes at-least a bottle of water
( I've seen 6 packs for as little as 50p in some shops )


in my honest opinion theft of good/s pertaining to ones survival if you have no other option should come under benefit claims on the government unless they exceed standard social security benefits
this obviously isnt the case, but a child may well see it that way especially when other people have things he does not


if your school is physically 'forcing' a student to do 'anything'
( literally, they have no right to demand anything of any student )
they are in CLEAR violation of the law
also, as the old add-age goes two wrongs do not make a right
the mother of said child could and should sue them, for a hell of allot more than £1 especially in a case where he already has problems, and the school force him to do something that will make him snap
regardless of the fact she herself is not helping the issue

why are there no water fountains in this school?
the fluid requirements of a growing child is insane, every school I've been in has had at-least one free water fountain for this reason
a water fountain would cost around £200 to build, and can improve the performance of the students dramatically parched children do not learn


personally, I do not believe he acted inappropriately none of the adults that are supposed to be caring for him, at home or at the school were doing their job properly
he is a CHILD and by definition cannot look after himself properly
what is the expected result? honestly. it's baffling

at best this is negligence, at worst criminal negligence



>Insert Hyperbole mode

the proper course of action in my little world would be to send the child into foster care, with regular checks where he would hopefully be looked after better
and both his parents should be permanently sterilized, with a really blunt object.
( really blunt, like a trowel. )
http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?hl=en&nord=1&q=trowel&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1136&bih=826&ion=1&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=10182328973697356213&sa=X&ei=inKXTpzDLYzDswaW8qyqBA&ved=0CD4Q8gIwAw
that blunt.

let's see society pump out thousands of neglected children if that's the punishment
I don't want a 'brat ban'
I want a 'dipstick parent ban'

it's such a shame I don't rule the world..
I wouldn't be tooo draconian... that often.

/Hyperbole mode

 

[stinkyrobot]

There's a difference between being afraid to do something, because you'll be punished and understanding that it's wrong.I know that if I had been that kid I would have been resentful to the people who punished him and may have evan done something rash to get back at them.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

But that didn't change the fact that my transgenderism made other people treat me like shit.

Don't you see the resemblance to this issue? Everyone at that kid's school (especially those in charge) placed him to do labor in filthy restrooms for however long it took. He's getting crap from anyone, and no parents to turn to for moral support at all. He's only acting this way because everyone gives him crap, thus no parents to motivate him doing good. Also, 3 hours isn't enough because depending on the bathroom's conditions- they can take so much longer. Why do you think custodians never have bathrooms cleaned more often? Because it gets awfully bad real fast and so time consuming to get all cleaned up.

Besides that, making him do this shall not help anyone out. It does not help, nor will make him toughen up with high spirits. Think of it this way: You dressed up the same next day in a dress. That's cool plus you got them to apologize, but here's the thing... he'll repeat the same actions too. If cleaning the bathroom didn't stop you, what makes you think this will do any good?

It wasn't like he was thinking "Oh man, they are making me clean up the bathrooms. I've learned a valuable lesson, so I should study real hard and get a good education." No, he was thinking, "I just want my mom's love! All I did was steal a soda can, yet they have the balls to make me clean up ALL these bathrooms?! I'll show them... I'll be more clever next time. It's not like anyone's going to care for me, so why should I stop?!" See... it's just making him realize that life's unfair to him.

P.S: That's how your system works where you live. I don't agree with it, plus I find it to be absurd. Not much better here in America nether... a lot of justice systems even for small cases like these are not qualified at all. People do not understand life but feel it's best to make a punishment due to 'Look, I got better things to do. Don't mess with us again, so do this awful forsaken labor to learn a lesson.' Not going to help anyone.

Nevada is one of the States in the United States...

Usually community service helps in this way: It tells you there is a consequence for breaking the law. Now mind you that's not going to stop a sociopath, but it enough to stop your typical Joe realize he done screwed up. The difference between me cross dressing and him stealing a soda on the other hand is... I was making a point. He was thirsty, didn't like the water, and was possibly demanding attention.

But like I said before the punishment teaches that there are consequences. But with out somebody sitting down with him, telling him it was wrong, and discussing with him why he did it... Well it's approaching pointless. On the other hand just the talking to him about why it's wrong, and why he did it, with no disciplinary action. That's useless too. You need both, especially for children.

It's not that I don't see your point, and you your self said it isn't enough... But cleaning a nasty bathroom isn't the end of the world. I know he needs some support and that right there is half the problem. Because he isn't getting any. He needs to know the consequences, and he needs to know what he did wrong. On top of that he needs some one to teach him, and that's where I believe this school messed up royally. The lazy part was the lack of personal involvement and guidance. As an adult you generally know when you screwed up, and that's why community service by it self is a good thing. As a kid however, you also need the guidance, and care of an adult to help give the situation context.

When I cross dressed at school, I made sure not to break the dress code. Technically I fallowed the rules, it was the misunderstanding that got me thrown under the bus. Doing it again was purely reinforcement of my point. Stealing the soda was a petty act that at it's very minimum was to get away with doing something bad, and/or a cry for attention.

I understand how he must feel, yes, but does that excuse his actions? No it doesn't, he needs some real support and that's the real truth. But stealing the soda needed to be punished as well. Discipline works in two ways, you need the punishment, and the guidance. Leaving out one or the other invalidates the whole process.

Being punished for cross dressing, well that was wrong, and mostly because of misunderstanding. But being punished for theft, well that's not just the right thing, it's the reality of the world. The misunderstanding was not giving guidance, and that was the laziness of the school. He's still young and needs to learn what, and why the laws are there for.

Did he deserve the punishment? Yes he did. Was that enough in it self? No! Absolutely not! He needs people to be there for him, to guide him, and support him. With out both he's got nothing, and he's not stupid, he knew what he did, and that it was wrong. He only got half of what was needed and that is the sad part. IF it was me I'd have started pulling Mr.Miyage style karate lessons on him. Teach him the value of his work, give him a skill, and be there when he needed me. I'm wholly against the lack of guidance, but the punishment was at least a step in the right direction.

Edit: Correcting for a half though that got written in. >.o;

 

[Denamic]

While the punishment is extreme but it did get the result. (I mean he won't be stealing again?) Overall however this probably wouldn't help him in the long run.

It'll almost certainly have the exact opposite effect.
I had a tough time growing up due to various reasons.
I would have no qualms about stealing a drink or two back then.
Were I faced with this kind of punishment, it'd only end up with an even worse outlook on life.
I'd probably just try harder to not get caught and would likely even branch out into vandalism for revenge.
In fact, that's pretty much exactly what happened.
I grew out of it, but this kid is much worse off than I was.
This kind of punishment does not work on kids.
Sure, it MIGHT keep him in behaving temporarily, but it will cause him to bottle up his hatred.
And that always works out well.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Clegane]The school are completely within their rights to issue that as a punishment.

But whether that is the right thing to do...

It was honestly half assed, with out guidance the punishment means nothing.

 

[Girl With One Eye]

I think the school went with the wrong punishment. A detention or something would have been better, and maybe an appointment with a school counsellor. The kid clearly has got some issues to deal with and the school should have been more understanding.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I think the school went with the wrong punishment. A detention or something would have been better, and maybe an appointment with a school counsellor. The kid clearly has got some issues to deal with and the school should have been more understanding.

Schools in the UK don't provide those kind of services from what I understand. Really seeing a counselor, and the punishment would have been a step in the right direction.

 

[Normandyfoxtrot]

Psychological abuse isn't cool as a punishment for children or adults.

 

[ninetails593]

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

I'm neutral about the topic, but I don't think removing information because people use it to make a point you don't agree with is right.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

[EDIT numero tres!] Removed the bit about him not liking water since many people here are just using that to say that he deserved it, when truly that fact is very very trivial.

I'm neutral about the topic, but I don't think removing information because people use it to make a point you don't agree with is right.

The truth there is astonishing. What kind of excuse is, "I don't like water," for, "I stole a soda from the school," really?

 

[Syntax Error]

I'm not that big of a believer in punishment. You want something to get done, you need to encourage, not coerce. Punishing children might just start off a cycle of negativity that will last the rest of their lives.

 

[kutuup]

It's a little heavy handed depending on the age of the kid and maybe they should offer counselling options to him, but he still needs to be punished otherwise he will learn that there is no punishment for stealing. I'd say the punishment was fitting to the offense personally. You can't let someone off for committing a crime because they have a hard life, the kid needs to learn that. The school should however offer support once he's served his punishment.

Put this whole thing in perspective, my Grandfather lived in Ireland as a child and was arrested for stealing food since his family lived in pretty much poverty. He was sent to what is called an Industrial School for the rest of his school life and was subjected to horrendous abuse that ultimately resulted in his suicide as an older man. THAT is an injustice. This kid got a fair punishment in my eyes.

 

[littlewisp]

A good punishment would have been to have him spend some time doing something productive for poor people with a good teacher's or counselor's supervision.

Or even just a good heart to heart with a strict teacher. I don't know how my mom does it, but she irons out most of her troublemakers before the school year is out (she teaches 6th grade). I remember she had a kid once whose parents died so basically she kept getting shipped around between two of her relatives. No one wanted her. They just felt obligated.

In the kid's shoes though, without responsible parents at home or any other sort of stable role model, the humiliation of cleaning the bathroom would inspire me to commit greater crimes/pranks.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I'm not that big of a believer in punishment. You want something to get done, you need to encourage, not coerce. Punishing children might just start off a cycle of negativity that will last the rest of their lives.

The punishment illustrates what bad things can happen when you do something bad, and that's just reality. With children it's useless unless you teach them why it's wrong. You need both sides, other wises what stops society from collapsing?

 

[SmilingKitsune]

I seriously doubt that's legal.

 

[zelda2fanboy]

You know, some adult is cleaning those toilets and it's not a punishment for him/her. It's their job. If he were an adult and "all he did" was steal a drink, he'd be facing wahayyyy steeper and harsher punishments than cleaning a toilet. Court fees, fines, community service, and jail time are all very real consequences for petty theft. It's a tough world.

 

[BlueMage]

Nothing a good caning wouldn't sort out.

 

[Helscreama]

EDIT: I say all this and I do believe in it, but there is something else I feel I should mention - when kids are already society's scumbags and can't be helped in conventional means, then using the sort of discipline they will respond to is something I feel is acceptable too. That is, bring back caning and corporal punishment, and National Service. Teachers have too little power now and are sometimes even running scared in their own classrooms, harsher discipline would do wonders to make things better...

I loved your edit. The world would be a much better place if kids had a better sense of discipline. I don't believe in hurting them but making National Service a requirement at a later age or possibly bring in Cadetship as a requirement during Primary/Secondary schooling.

 

[Furioso]

Problems are not the law is the law, and the law has to be respected, don't do the crime if you can't do the time etc