Is Trashtalk An Essential Part Of Online Games?

[Starbird]

From another thread where the devs are taking mechanical steps to stop 'teabagging' in a popular shooter.

I am always surprised to see how many people defend 'trashtalk' (varying from taunting the other team to just being a tremendous jerk to everyone) as an essential part of online gaming.

I immediately think of League of Legends and the amount of irate players banned by the Tribunal system coming to the forums furious about being banned for something that has become commonplace (if not outright expected) in competitive online games.

Blizzard and other companies have similar policies, although naturally not as rigorous. However we do see more and more companies introducing stricter measures to enforce certain standards of sportsmanship and civil interaction in their games.

Personally, while I think the 'teabagging' issue is daft, I love the idea of online gaming finally starting to clean up it's act. Taking steps to remove people who create an unpleasant experience for others by being deliberately offensive

So yeah - where do you stand on this? Why do you think this stuff is so ingrained in certain online communities? Does it just come with the territories or is it learned behavior resulting from a combination of anonymity and a lack of moderation?

 

[Silence]

With extensive experience in online gaming (Warcraft 3, WoW, DotA, Dota 2, LoL, Starcraft 2) on PC, I say: No. It is not essential. In fact, it even hurts your own team. Some funny flames however are nice to have. But there is a limit to what should be accepted.

I like stricter measures against shittalk. Actually, come to think of it, there should be a distinction between "shittalk" and "trashtalk". "Shittalk" is offensive and plain dumb. Trashtalk is funny.

 

[Starbird]

With extensive experience in online gaming (Warcraft 3, WoW, DotA, Dota 2, LoL, Starcraft 2) on PC, I say: No. It is not essential. In fact, they even hurt your own team. Some funny flames however are nice to have. But there is a limit to what should be accepted.

I like stricter measures against shittalk. Actually, come to think of it, there should be a distinction between "shittalk" and "trashtalk". "Shittalk is offensive, plain dumb". Trashtalk is funny.

Mm.

Let's put it this way. I will tend to pardon a sore loser from time to time. I will almost never pardon a gloating winner.

 

[Foolery]

People who can't treat others with basic decency, need to go. Simple as that. A bit of trashtalk is ok, as long as it's done in respectful jest, but those who get their jollies by being a dick, tarnish the online experience for others. It's why I wont touch something like L4D2 public versus with a 12 foot pole.

 

[Mikeybb]

I think for some people it is an important part of the game experience.
Those who like it see that aspect as part of the experience, fun banter and amusing (to them) taunts enhance the game.
For others, it's positively offputting, and some are completely apathetic towards it.

I've never liked it myself, falling in line with this kind of thinking;

Let's put it this way. I will tend to pardon a sore loser from time to time. I will almost never pardon a gloating winner.

Insofar as I'm fairly tolerant of it most of the time, never participating myself.
I dislike gloating, but then, that's more a dislike for arrogance that I carry in all aspects of life, not just gaming.

The thing is, I feel that doing away with it is exactly the wrong step to take.
I can understand the desire to draw in those gamers who are put off by the existence of trash talk and such behavior, but this doesn't help.
It's not a progressive attitude, it's a regressive one.

It would be far better to ensure that there is room for all.
Servers that do forbid trash talk alongside servers that don't.

I'd be reluctant to call such servers 'mature', but some kind of name identifying them as a no holds barred environment regarding language and behavior would ensure new players and those who didn't like that kind of thing could avoid them actively and allow those who love that kind of thing to happily continue teabagging each other.

It's always better to expand upon options available for people, rather than take them away.
When you take the option to indulge in that behavior away from people, they'll spend their energy trying to find new ways to trashtalk each other.

 

[Mr Jack]

Different people will always have different standards for acceptable behaviour. What you do not want is a situation where these people are forced to play with each other. Allowing community run dedicated servers allows people to establish a community with the environment they enjoy.

Some games such as MMO's can't use this approach, but I think they should attempt to emulate it. Different Worlds/Realms/whatever could have different norms of civility enforced, so that everyone can find a server culture that they can enjoy.

 

[Erttheking]

If it is, I have to admit my sympathies towards online games will be limited should they ever crash and burn. I mean for Christ's sake, I know that the human brain is hardwired to see any criticism as a personal attack, but it baffles me that people believe this shit. People honestly believe that trashtalk is "part of the experience". If it's not good natured ribbing (And it rarely is) then it's just a bunch of dick holes being dick holes. The "part of the experience" bullshit is an excuse so that people don't have to confront the ugly reality of it all. Online gaming is full of assholes that are bringing it down.

 

[Starbird]

Different people will always have different standards for acceptable behaviour. What you do not want is a situation where these people are forced to play with each other. Allowing community run dedicated servers allows people to establish a community with the environment they enjoy.

Some games such as MMO's can't use this approach, but I think they should attempt to emulate it. Different Worlds/Realms/whatever could have different norms of civility enforced, so that everyone can find a server culture that they can enjoy.

I think for some people it is an important part of the game experience.
Those who like it see that aspect as part of the experience, fun banter and amusing (to them) taunts enhance the game.
For others, it's positively offputting, and some are completely apathetic towards it.

I've never liked it myself, falling in line with this kind of thinking;

Let's put it this way. I will tend to pardon a sore loser from time to time. I will almost never pardon a gloating winner.

Insofar as I'm fairly tolerant of it most of the time, never participating myself.
I dislike gloating, but then, that's more a dislike for arrogance that I carry in all aspects of life, not just gaming.

The thing is, I feel that doing away with it is exactly the wrong step to take.
I can understand the desire to draw in those gamers who are put off by the existence of trash talk and such behavior, but this doesn't help.
It's not a progressive attitude, it's a regressive one.

It would be far better to ensure that there is room for all.
Servers that do forbid trash talk alongside servers that don't.

I'd be reluctant to call such servers 'mature', but some kind of name identifying them as a no holds barred environment regarding language and behavior would ensure new players and those who didn't like that kind of thing could avoid them actively and allow those who love that kind of thing to happily continue teabagging each other.

It's always better to expand upon options available for people, rather than take them away.
When you take the option to indulge in that behavior away from people, they'll spend their energy trying to find new ways to trashtalk each other.

This 'different realms, different rules' mindset is interesting in theory but just not practical. It would also be extremely confusing for newcomers and moderation would be a bloody nightmare.

I'm also just not a fan of legitimizing being an a-hole online in this way. Once you are interacting with other people, who are mostly just there to enjoy the game and not have to deal with Timmy the 10 year old widdling in their ear for half an hour - you should probably just bring the hammer down.

The only thing I would say is that private chatrooms etc. should be exempt from this - but they should be opt-in, not opt-out.

Recently I've been thinking that the disgusting behavior we've seen online recently (Lizardsquad, rape and death threats sent to people and their families, swatting, bomb threats over petty crap.) originally stems from this whole mindset that the internet is your personal toilet and you can dump any frustration or stupid urge onto it without fear or reprisal.

I think League has the right idea. Put up a TOU with certain guidelines, introduce a Tribunal system and then let it run itself - obviously with certain safeguards and moderation to prevent abuse.

 

[SUPA FRANKY]

As long as it's light, I don't see the problem with trash talk.

Good Example: Ha Newb? Like getting owned? Hows about you go back to Call of Duty since you can't handle a real shooter!

Bad Example: I will come to your house and rape your family. I won't stop until they are all dead. I will make sure to mke the torture of you the worst of all.

I think that's a fair distinction.

 

[sageoftruth]

Well, it's certainly essential for keeping me out of online games.

 

[Mikeybb]

The only thing I would say is that private chatrooms etc. should be exempt from this - but they should be opt-in, not opt-out.

Replying to the whole thing, but quoting this part as it is a good idea.

The idea that all interaction should be optional in that way could work too, with disclaimers and warnings should you attempt to join into a room that actively employs that element of play.

I still agree that trash talk isn't for me either, but I don't feel it is a thing that we can rightfully banish just because we don't enjoy it.
Making it not part of the default experience isn't just a good idea though, it sound like the right one, but trashtalk shouldn't be driven away entirely and forbidden for all.
Some people really do like the banter and the silliness of it, even with little timmy widdling all over the chat.

"What two gamers do to each other and say while they're doing it room is no one else's business as long as it's consensual."
...is what I was going to say, but that sounds more like a commentary on sexual relationships instead of this.

 

[Dragonbums]

There is a fine line between trash talking and just being outright malicious to the person in question.

To me, trashtalking is heckling the player. Taunting them, mocking their skills (to a moderate degree. No need to tell him/her to stop playing the game.) and generally annoying the opponent enough to have them lose their cool.


However I say it's a fine line. No- calling people ******/spick/etc. Calling them derogatory names based on their sexuality, and making sexist jokes are not what I consider "trash talking". That's just being a downright fuckwad and sucks the enjoyment not only out of the person on the receiving end of the insults, but to others who to others in the game as well.

I don't want to play a match with someone , my team regardless who keeps calling that one gay person a ******, or harassing to the point of tears younger players. It's unfun for everyone.

 

[Neverhoodian]

If trash talk is "part of the experience," then giving users the tools to block it should be equally valid. Take Team Fortress 2 for example. The most recent update allows people to mute both voice and text chat (it used to be voice only). Frankly, I feel such features should be mandatory in this day and age.

Just because I can handle bullshit doesn't mean I want to.

 

[Thyunda]

Trashtalking does depend 100% on the context. I don't mind people insulting my skills, but then I'm a relatively high rank/level in anything I play consistently and I'm certain enough of my own ability to not only give it back, but also out-perform.
However, I'm currently playing with my girlfriend and basically getting her into the games. So she's only getting one or two kills per game. If somebody were to start abusing her for it, I don't know if her confidence will be able to handle it, and so it would really fuck me off if she felt she couldn't compete just 'cause of some piece of shit thinking he knows trash talk.

Trashtalk I think is an integral part of competitive gaming. As in, between two teams of players in high-stakes situations. Not somewhere your average newb is going to be trying to enjoy the game. And there's no excuse for just plain abusing other players. Insult their skill, not their person.

 

[happyninja42]

So yeah - where do you stand on this? Why do you think this stuff is so ingrained in certain online communities? Does it just come with the territories or is it learned behavior resulting from a combination of anonymity and a lack of moderation?

I think it's ingrained in "certain online communities" because those communities are comprised of immature douchebags that can't interact with other people without being an asshole.

As to your question of is it an integral part of online gaming? No, of course not. I've played plenty of online games where people don't engage in this behaviour. So it's not integral. But I do think it's way more common in games that have direct player to player competition in them. In games that have a cooperative design to their multiplay, I find it's way less common to run into douchebaggery. Not I said "less common" not "non-existant". You still run into the random asshole now and then, but in my experience, the likelihood of it happening is very rare. I can go weeks in a coop game without ending up in a team with an asshole. But load up Planetside 2, and the shit talking is almost instantaneous.


Though I think this is simply an online reflection of human culture being somewhat dickish to each other when they compete. Shit talking the other team isn't a new experience to the online community. Centuries of sports teams, and their fans, have indulged in hurling insults and slanderous comments at each other in an attempt at psychological warfare, and just macho blustering. It's just as douchey in that context as it is in online gaming, but there it is.

But no, I don't think it's "integral" to gaming. It's just a side effect of having a game that is popular by a large number of assholes.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

No, trashtalk isn't essential.

Look, there's nothing wrong with a little bit of friendly taunting once in a while ("dude, you're making this too easy!"), and there's nothing wrong with patting yourself on the back for a good play and going "THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE!" in all chat. It's competitive, that kind of attitude will always surface as a result, and as long as it's not malicous, I'm cool with it.

But telling people "lawl go fack usseff noooooob" "deinstall luzer!" "I !@#$ your mom last nite and it was teh weaksawce 4 u!", "Lawl go keel usseff nub!" or anything similar? Anyone who does this and thinks it's fun is an asshole, and I won't shed any tears for them being banned.

No, it's not "an essential part of the culture". Not unless you believe we are a culture of assholes and you WANT it to remain a culture of immature screaming assholes. In which case, congrats, you're an asshole, and I'm not going to take anything you say seriously, you immature child.

EDIT: Teabagging doesn't bother me for one reason and one reason only. Because the jackhole doing it is exposing himself to me or one of my teammates planting an easy bullet in his skull. He's just hurting himself by doing it.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Is it in good fun? I regularly engage in low-brow ribbing with my friends and online clan.
But I don't do it to regulars because too often it just causes needless drama.

Or is it just to be a dick?
No, I don't think it's necessary. Not even as a matter of "head games".
Mute options are popular and exist for a reason. Just saying.

 

[MrFalconfly]

Trashtalk is completely 100% non-essential.

There'd literally be no adverse effect to the gaming experience if people stopped trashtalking each other (discounting some immature shutins not being able to vent on other people over the internet).

 

[broadbandmink]

Have a look at [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC4-YP3jJOQ" (title,target)]this[/URL]. Makes it almost seem harmless, doesn't it.

Almost.

However, from my personal experience it mostly manifests itself in [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQoc7jw4YRE" (title,target)]this[/URL] fashion..

It's as if the song "Fucking Hostile" from the album Vulgar Display of Power by Pantera took human form and decided it was all your fault. Yeah, everything...