Issue 45 - OMG Girlz Don't Exist on teh Intarweb!!!!1
- Thread starter The Escapist Staff
- Start date
Original Comment by: Kulamata
I think that part of the issue is World of Warcraft; Horizons has an older age group, and has a higher percentage of women than any other MMORPG than I know. Many are into community building (literally) and other crafting or role playing, but by no means all. There are some very capable hunters who happen to be women too. Our guild was started by a woman who was a very strong mage. And her daughter played as well. (The ex GM is playing WoW now.)
Unsurprisingly, WoW has attracted a lot of Blizzkids.
I think that part of the issue is World of Warcraft; Horizons has an older age group, and has a higher percentage of women than any other MMORPG than I know. Many are into community building (literally) and other crafting or role playing, but by no means all. There are some very capable hunters who happen to be women too. Our guild was started by a woman who was a very strong mage. And her daughter played as well. (The ex GM is playing WoW now.)
Unsurprisingly, WoW has attracted a lot of Blizzkids.
Whereas WoW is my newest experience with this, I've seen it in other games as well. I play a lot of games; probably too many. It really just depends on where you go and what you do. WoW has a lot of kids, but it does have a lot of mature players as well. You just have to find them.
As far as female immaturity is concert - I think Pyro has it right when he says that male immaturity is different than female immaturity. I'm not saying girls can't be immature, I know we can
. It's just a matter of what is at stake and in this case the girl is in a more typically male dominated world. Though, I can definitely tell some stories of a girl who played on the same server as I and behaved as a polar opposite of me and the differences there. I think that would pretty much sum up the difference between mature and immature girls in games.
As far as female immaturity is concert - I think Pyro has it right when he says that male immaturity is different than female immaturity. I'm not saying girls can't be immature, I know we can
. It's just a matter of what is at stake and in this case the girl is in a more typically male dominated world. Though, I can definitely tell some stories of a girl who played on the same server as I and behaved as a polar opposite of me and the differences there. I think that would pretty much sum up the difference between mature and immature girls in games.
Original Comment by: Biggles
Is it just me, or has the escapist run this article before? I'm getting a major sense of deja vu. Still, it is amusing.
Is it just me, or has the escapist run this article before? I'm getting a major sense of deja vu. Still, it is amusing.
Original Comment by: Nikudada
It just occured to me that the escapist forums are literally flame free. My god, thats refreshing. Thanks Pyro and Whitney, I agree 100% with both of you. Happy gaming...
It just occured to me that the escapist forums are literally flame free. My god, thats refreshing. Thanks Pyro and Whitney, I agree 100% with both of you. Happy gaming...
Original Comment by: Jesualdo
http://www.myspace.com/romodesign
Whitney, I am glad you're putting this out there. I know it probably seems like a tired topic for some readers, but I just got into online gaming with my ps2, and I have already been witness to some of the situations you described. I have befriended a great girl gamer on metal gear 3 subsistance, and every so often when we're playing; new players will show up and they'll ask me (even though she's obviously listening) "hey, who's that girl?" I say, "why don't you ask her? to me, she's a friend" I feel bad for her, but I make sure to straighten out those immatue kids.
Great article, and I hope to read more from you soon. Oh, and great pics. I know you exist.
http://www.myspace.com/romodesign
Whitney, I am glad you're putting this out there. I know it probably seems like a tired topic for some readers, but I just got into online gaming with my ps2, and I have already been witness to some of the situations you described. I have befriended a great girl gamer on metal gear 3 subsistance, and every so often when we're playing; new players will show up and they'll ask me (even though she's obviously listening) "hey, who's that girl?" I say, "why don't you ask her? to me, she's a friend" I feel bad for her, but I make sure to straighten out those immatue kids.
Great article, and I hope to read more from you soon. Oh, and great pics. I know you exist.
Original Comment by: IceCreamSandwhich
Girlz do exist on teh Intarweb, I have downloaded many pictures and movies of them in various positions and situations. However the solo flying gamer chick, is an ever so rare commodity, that leaves us breathless and captivated when discovered, and that is why we(guys) need pictures as documented evidence of their actual existence.
I?m a GM of WoW guild, I have been the GM of the same guild for three different games now over a 8 year period. I game with and have gamed with many girls in my lifetime, the thing is I have noticed is that girls flying solo, either do not last long due to being immature kids or cannot stand the abuse my guild gives during their initiation phase, all new members of the guild go through an initial hazing phase, male or female. The women I have gamed with, have exclusively. The type of female I game with is usually an extension of their male counterpart, a wife, a girlfriend, a fiancé, etc.
It?s important to the social dynamic of the situation, for a girl to represent to why they are gaming. If they are looking for an honest to go good gaming experience, they must surround themselves with mature people where they can just end up being one of the guys. If their intentions are to be a kissy-face cyber flirt, then their gaming experience is not going to be one they remember with much fondness, because let?s face it, gaming is a male dominated and honored tradition.
But Whitney, you can come game with me anytime.
Girlz do exist on teh Intarweb, I have downloaded many pictures and movies of them in various positions and situations. However the solo flying gamer chick, is an ever so rare commodity, that leaves us breathless and captivated when discovered, and that is why we(guys) need pictures as documented evidence of their actual existence.
I?m a GM of WoW guild, I have been the GM of the same guild for three different games now over a 8 year period. I game with and have gamed with many girls in my lifetime, the thing is I have noticed is that girls flying solo, either do not last long due to being immature kids or cannot stand the abuse my guild gives during their initiation phase, all new members of the guild go through an initial hazing phase, male or female. The women I have gamed with, have exclusively. The type of female I game with is usually an extension of their male counterpart, a wife, a girlfriend, a fiancé, etc.
It?s important to the social dynamic of the situation, for a girl to represent to why they are gaming. If they are looking for an honest to go good gaming experience, they must surround themselves with mature people where they can just end up being one of the guys. If their intentions are to be a kissy-face cyber flirt, then their gaming experience is not going to be one they remember with much fondness, because let?s face it, gaming is a male dominated and honored tradition.
But Whitney, you can come game with me anytime.
Original Comment by: IceCreamSandwhich
Things have changed quite a bit since I wrote this, I see much less of this than I used to. It's interesting to see how the culture evolves in such short periods of time.
Does this mean there is going to be a part two? You could make this an ongoing series, Whitney Butts' travel's through teh intarweb. Since this seems to be the only article on the site people seem to comment on. I for one would be interested in hearing a followup!
Things have changed quite a bit since I wrote this, I see much less of this than I used to. It's interesting to see how the culture evolves in such short periods of time.
Does this mean there is going to be a part two? You could make this an ongoing series, Whitney Butts' travel's through teh intarweb. Since this seems to be the only article on the site people seem to comment on. I for one would be interested in hearing a followup!
Original Comment by: Frank
omg...a girl on the web! wtf? ...Ok, just kidding.
Actually can't see the problem. I mean I play a lot with girls. A about a good quarter of my Friendlist in Xboxlive , for example, is female. And they are accepted as equal, in a team or beaten to the ground in DOA4. No need to send a pic.
I think your comments are a bit exxagerated or you should stop playing with these american kids.
omg...a girl on the web! wtf? ...Ok, just kidding.
Actually can't see the problem. I mean I play a lot with girls. A about a good quarter of my Friendlist in Xboxlive , for example, is female. And they are accepted as equal, in a team or beaten to the ground in DOA4. No need to send a pic.
I think your comments are a bit exxagerated or you should stop playing with these american kids.
Original Comment by: Strayth
http://home.comcast.net/~wilhyral/
This was pretty interesting, I liked it.
That part about girls not being good at games? I used to actually believe that, reluctantly. See, every girl I knew that played games was pretty bad at it. My neighbor's daughter Brittany was 16 when I met her at the age 18, so occasionally we'd play Halo. She was really good in one level and I momentarily figured the girl thing was a legend, until I tried against her in a different level. Immediately she switched all the weapons to shotguns, etc. I told her just to leave it normal, and when she accepted that, I completely mopped floor with her. Apparently she just played that same level, over, and over, and never played without a shotgun.
Cutting around most the details, my guild split up after a while and I ended up turning my cloak and going against the Alliance, as I used to in the old day. Long story short, I came against one of the girls in the guild in world PVP and she sent me crying all the way home, bow-legged. I was very impressed. So yes, there are girls out there who can play games.
http://home.comcast.net/~wilhyral/
This was pretty interesting, I liked it.
That part about girls not being good at games? I used to actually believe that, reluctantly. See, every girl I knew that played games was pretty bad at it. My neighbor's daughter Brittany was 16 when I met her at the age 18, so occasionally we'd play Halo. She was really good in one level and I momentarily figured the girl thing was a legend, until I tried against her in a different level. Immediately she switched all the weapons to shotguns, etc. I told her just to leave it normal, and when she accepted that, I completely mopped floor with her. Apparently she just played that same level, over, and over, and never played without a shotgun.
Cutting around most the details, my guild split up after a while and I ended up turning my cloak and going against the Alliance, as I used to in the old day. Long story short, I came against one of the girls in the guild in world PVP and she sent me crying all the way home, bow-legged. I was very impressed. So yes, there are girls out there who can play games.
Original Comment by: QuantumMischief
http://spaces.msn.com/nonbiasedgamer/
Wow, that is some amazingly true insight, I being a guy who tries his hardest to be nice to everyone, would have to say I am guilty of at least thinking some of the dialog mentioned here. I know that girls are there, but when I play one it seems surreal or untrue, thinking it is probably just a pre-pubesent punk, who pops on a game of Ghost Recon on Xbox Live, which I think COULD be a girl, but I just decide to play it safe and not say anything at all. I also find it sad that enough guys masquerade as girls that when guys meet a real girl we need some sort of proof, but I fully understand why a girl would choose not to post a pic of themselves, because being a guy, I know that we would all gaggle at the "goods" (I mean no offence, I am just putting what a true guy thinks), or if looks don't meet our standards, have a flame-fest. I know if I where a hot girl I would feel uncomptrouble with the thought of sending numerous guys on a trip to the bathroom, if you know what I mean(once again, I mean no offence, I am speaking from the mind of a guy). Anyway thanks for the insight, it will now make me, and hopefully other guys act nicer to girls on the net. But sadly it will not end until more girls start gaming, though I don't think guys will ever stop impersonatinf girls ont he net.
http://spaces.msn.com/nonbiasedgamer/
Wow, that is some amazingly true insight, I being a guy who tries his hardest to be nice to everyone, would have to say I am guilty of at least thinking some of the dialog mentioned here. I know that girls are there, but when I play one it seems surreal or untrue, thinking it is probably just a pre-pubesent punk, who pops on a game of Ghost Recon on Xbox Live, which I think COULD be a girl, but I just decide to play it safe and not say anything at all. I also find it sad that enough guys masquerade as girls that when guys meet a real girl we need some sort of proof, but I fully understand why a girl would choose not to post a pic of themselves, because being a guy, I know that we would all gaggle at the "goods" (I mean no offence, I am just putting what a true guy thinks), or if looks don't meet our standards, have a flame-fest. I know if I where a hot girl I would feel uncomptrouble with the thought of sending numerous guys on a trip to the bathroom, if you know what I mean(once again, I mean no offence, I am speaking from the mind of a guy). Anyway thanks for the insight, it will now make me, and hopefully other guys act nicer to girls on the net. But sadly it will not end until more girls start gaming, though I don't think guys will ever stop impersonatinf girls ont he net.
Original Comment by: Allan Petersen
I live in Denmark, and I am sad to say that the situation you have over there, is quite rare, and cause by among other things girls inhability to accept the fact that games are unisex.
There will always be boys that want pics, who cares... I have been an ESL admin for the Europeans Cybergames League for a few years, and ran the Ladies Cup. I have managed a girl cs team, and I must say that girls here are very rare to see playing, but the ones that do are not afraid to let them selves be heard on ventrillo, even if they havent talked to the people over the net before that they are about to play with.
There are several types of stereotypes that have to be considered, there are attention whores, shy girls that like games, girls that like games that are outgoing, and all sorts of combinations of the above mentioned.
In Europe I will admit that girl gaming, even as an admin is looked upon with feeble eyes. Very few of the girls are as good as the top pro guys, but that is because in my own opinion do not feel that they have whats in them to get to that level. This can be seen by the clear segregation of the leagues with Male and Female cups. If things where to get even in the e-games sports scene, its about time someone just made a Unisex cup, because on a computer, Sex, Race, Skincolour, Religion, are not determining how good you aim, shoot, or how your gameplay is.
I must say this Article was good, because it informs people of the situation some girls are in, but just remember... The latest figures indicate that there are now 25.1 million women using the Internet in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK, compared to 40.1 million men. And that was in 2004, granted they dont all play games, but they are still on the web. And thats just in those countries...
Have a nice day.
I live in Denmark, and I am sad to say that the situation you have over there, is quite rare, and cause by among other things girls inhability to accept the fact that games are unisex.
There will always be boys that want pics, who cares... I have been an ESL admin for the Europeans Cybergames League for a few years, and ran the Ladies Cup. I have managed a girl cs team, and I must say that girls here are very rare to see playing, but the ones that do are not afraid to let them selves be heard on ventrillo, even if they havent talked to the people over the net before that they are about to play with.
There are several types of stereotypes that have to be considered, there are attention whores, shy girls that like games, girls that like games that are outgoing, and all sorts of combinations of the above mentioned.
In Europe I will admit that girl gaming, even as an admin is looked upon with feeble eyes. Very few of the girls are as good as the top pro guys, but that is because in my own opinion do not feel that they have whats in them to get to that level. This can be seen by the clear segregation of the leagues with Male and Female cups. If things where to get even in the e-games sports scene, its about time someone just made a Unisex cup, because on a computer, Sex, Race, Skincolour, Religion, are not determining how good you aim, shoot, or how your gameplay is.
I must say this Article was good, because it informs people of the situation some girls are in, but just remember... The latest figures indicate that there are now 25.1 million women using the Internet in France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK, compared to 40.1 million men. And that was in 2004, granted they dont all play games, but they are still on the web. And thats just in those countries...
Have a nice day.
Original Comment by: josh brandt
My girlfriend and I play A Tale In The Desert together-- that appears to be a much more female-friendly game, probably because it's designed to discourage less mature and poorly-socialized players from sticking around too long. Even there, though, I've know of one girl-who-isn't and I have some doubts about a couple of female-in-game players.
I've certainly observed that sort of "r u a gurl" behavior on IRC and other chat systems as long as I've been on the internet, though-- since 1990, when IRC was new and hardly anyone used computers, let along giiiirls. It was less ridiculous on dial-up BBSes, where I regularly called a board run by a girl (I keep saying "girl," but she was 17, so maybe "young woman" would work better).
I think that boys on the internet are just dorks and need to get out more. (And this time I'm not apologizing for the word "boys," 'cause I mean it.)
My girlfriend and I play A Tale In The Desert together-- that appears to be a much more female-friendly game, probably because it's designed to discourage less mature and poorly-socialized players from sticking around too long. Even there, though, I've know of one girl-who-isn't and I have some doubts about a couple of female-in-game players.
I've certainly observed that sort of "r u a gurl" behavior on IRC and other chat systems as long as I've been on the internet, though-- since 1990, when IRC was new and hardly anyone used computers, let along giiiirls. It was less ridiculous on dial-up BBSes, where I regularly called a board run by a girl (I keep saying "girl," but she was 17, so maybe "young woman" would work better).
I think that boys on the internet are just dorks and need to get out more. (And this time I'm not apologizing for the word "boys," 'cause I mean it.)
Original Comment by: JaMBo
http://www.vgtact.com
Biggles what does the editorial say? Does it just say that occasionally they will run old articles in new issues? Because I remember this article as well issue 17. I guess it is good to remind new readers that girl gamers do exist but in realality I think it is just young or immature gamers that don't believe girls exist or always want a picture of them. On that note young or immature gamers usually don't read the escapist (notice why, as someone commented earlier, there are no flames on these boards).
http://www.vgtact.com
Biggles what does the editorial say? Does it just say that occasionally they will run old articles in new issues? Because I remember this article as well issue 17. I guess it is good to remind new readers that girl gamers do exist but in realality I think it is just young or immature gamers that don't believe girls exist or always want a picture of them. On that note young or immature gamers usually don't read the escapist (notice why, as someone commented earlier, there are no flames on these boards).
Original Comment by: JaMBo
http://www.vgtact.com
Also on that note (sorry wish I could edit previous posts). I would love to see more posts on girl gamers and statistics. I'm always trying to understand the ones around me.
http://www.vgtact.com
Also on that note (sorry wish I could edit previous posts). I would love to see more posts on girl gamers and statistics. I'm always trying to understand the ones around me.
Original Comment by: Mark
http://frontal-lobe.net
I don't believe I've ever had any doubt that there were girls on the Internet, even in online games, so interacting with them isn't that much of a problem (though I haven't seen much to dispute the saying: females online are attractive, sane, and single; pick two). The place where there appears to be a shortage (if I may use such a brutally economic term) is in the realm of gaming itself. We quote statistics about how more and more people who play games are women, but current conventional wisdom holds that women who are really, seriously into video games of a non-massive sort are the exception to the rule, an oddity, so vastly in the minority that to encounter one is a shock.
In my (large) circle of real-life acquaintances, many of whom are avid gamers, I believe I know one female for whom video games are a fairly serious hobby, and who chose this hobby herself rather than being coaxed into it by a significant other. And, by and large, she is just "one of the guys."
I don't mean to lessen the effect of this classic article. But I occasionally get the feeling that we've been beaten over the head with this point. Yes, there are women on the Internet, and there are woman gamers, and a normal distribution of them are better than me. And that's great, it's good to know they're out there - but where are they? (And I don't mean just the famous examples)
http://frontal-lobe.net
I don't believe I've ever had any doubt that there were girls on the Internet, even in online games, so interacting with them isn't that much of a problem (though I haven't seen much to dispute the saying: females online are attractive, sane, and single; pick two). The place where there appears to be a shortage (if I may use such a brutally economic term) is in the realm of gaming itself. We quote statistics about how more and more people who play games are women, but current conventional wisdom holds that women who are really, seriously into video games of a non-massive sort are the exception to the rule, an oddity, so vastly in the minority that to encounter one is a shock.
In my (large) circle of real-life acquaintances, many of whom are avid gamers, I believe I know one female for whom video games are a fairly serious hobby, and who chose this hobby herself rather than being coaxed into it by a significant other. And, by and large, she is just "one of the guys."
I don't mean to lessen the effect of this classic article. But I occasionally get the feeling that we've been beaten over the head with this point. Yes, there are women on the Internet, and there are woman gamers, and a normal distribution of them are better than me. And that's great, it's good to know they're out there - but where are they? (And I don't mean just the famous examples)
Original Comment by: David
This is the first article I remember reading here, and it really got me hooked
This is the first article I remember reading here, and it really got me hooked
Original Comment by: Cole
I do think it depends on the game and whether or not you find a group within the games community that suits you. When I first started playing Online my first clan I joined in a FPS was run by a 60 old lady and her husband. I loved the people and community of this game and played it for a very long time and still pop in every once in awhile. When started college I ran into a few people who had played this same game but who had hated the community and its immature flamewars on community forums and the constant complaining. I totally disagreed with my friend about this statement but I had not really expierenced the community outside of the few clans I associated with. I had found a group of mature people that suited me and had never looked to see what the rest of the community was like, mostly because I had no need to. I think if everyone finds the group of people that suit them they will have fun and enjoy their little part of the community.
The hard part is in finding these mature groups, I don't believe its hard because there is not necessarily alot of them but because they are less vocal. Most IRC's and Voice clients such as Ventrillo / Teamspeak are dominated by the less immature players and we then assume that there are not that many mature players out there.
In the article it states that she plays Counterstike, which I view as a very harsh community, yet I have not felt like putting in the time and effort to find a mature group of people in this game. I bring up counterstrike because of a number of servers that are supported or hosted by the website "www.girlsofcs.com".
Although this site is dedicated to girls that play CS and may be helping break the stereotype that "gurlz don't play games". On the other hand sites like these may also be contributing to the problem. At a glance the site supports girls who play counterstrike by having a place to go but seems mainly focused on posting pictures and a place for immature players that are mentioned in the article to go and continue their flamewars and sexist comments.
Any thoughts or opinions on this?
I do think it depends on the game and whether or not you find a group within the games community that suits you. When I first started playing Online my first clan I joined in a FPS was run by a 60 old lady and her husband. I loved the people and community of this game and played it for a very long time and still pop in every once in awhile. When started college I ran into a few people who had played this same game but who had hated the community and its immature flamewars on community forums and the constant complaining. I totally disagreed with my friend about this statement but I had not really expierenced the community outside of the few clans I associated with. I had found a group of mature people that suited me and had never looked to see what the rest of the community was like, mostly because I had no need to. I think if everyone finds the group of people that suit them they will have fun and enjoy their little part of the community.
The hard part is in finding these mature groups, I don't believe its hard because there is not necessarily alot of them but because they are less vocal. Most IRC's and Voice clients such as Ventrillo / Teamspeak are dominated by the less immature players and we then assume that there are not that many mature players out there.
In the article it states that she plays Counterstike, which I view as a very harsh community, yet I have not felt like putting in the time and effort to find a mature group of people in this game. I bring up counterstrike because of a number of servers that are supported or hosted by the website "www.girlsofcs.com".
Although this site is dedicated to girls that play CS and may be helping break the stereotype that "gurlz don't play games". On the other hand sites like these may also be contributing to the problem. At a glance the site supports girls who play counterstrike by having a place to go but seems mainly focused on posting pictures and a place for immature players that are mentioned in the article to go and continue their flamewars and sexist comments.
Any thoughts or opinions on this?
Original Comment by: Nunja
http://www.onlinewelten.com
Great article, Whitney. Sorry to disappoint your stereotypes, though, we've got at least 50% women/girls in our WoW guild, and none of them are treated with disbelief or ignorance.
Apart from these rarely encountered exeptions, you are most probably right - Female gamers are still treated as a case for WWF, due to risk of extinction. It's caused by stereotypes from the age of single player games, in which female players made up something like 2% (excluding "made for females" games, like Sims) of all players. MMOG's are a far different case, and it will most probably take a few years until female players a accepted as "normal".
btw, very nice humour, enjoyed it very much
Regards
http://www.onlinewelten.com
Great article, Whitney. Sorry to disappoint your stereotypes, though, we've got at least 50% women/girls in our WoW guild, and none of them are treated with disbelief or ignorance.
Apart from these rarely encountered exeptions, you are most probably right - Female gamers are still treated as a case for WWF, due to risk of extinction. It's caused by stereotypes from the age of single player games, in which female players made up something like 2% (excluding "made for females" games, like Sims) of all players. MMOG's are a far different case, and it will most probably take a few years until female players a accepted as "normal".
btw, very nice humour, enjoyed it very much
Regards