It's ok to be angry about capitalism

tstorm823

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Certainly does affect the point about German conservatives enabling the Nazis' rise, of course, which was what you seemed to be objecting to in the last post.
I was genuinely looking for specifics. The internet has this amazing ability to make conservative a bad word and socialists the only good guys, unless they are the bad guys which makes them not really socialists, and if a conservative does something good they're not really conservative, cause otherwise they would only do bad things... I like words to mean something. Yes, there were conservatives who enabled the Nazis, you are correct on that point, thank you for being specific.
 

Silvanus

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I was genuinely looking for specifics. The internet has this amazing ability to make conservative a bad word and socialists the only good guys, unless they are the bad guys which makes them not really socialists, and if a conservative does something good they're not really conservative, cause otherwise they would only do bad things... I like words to mean something. Yes, there were conservatives who enabled the Nazis, you are correct on that point, thank you for being specific.
Fair enough, I probably shouldn't always be so quick to snark.
 

immortalfrieza

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According to Marx, they cannot be patched because the government eventually works for capitalists.
Most economic theorists have been proven largely wrong over the years, Marx among them. Their predictions have failed to bear fruit time and time again so it's not really much of an argument to bring up what people like them have said.

Shakespeare's character said: "The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers." When lawyers take advantage of the way the law is written in a way that's obviously unfair, the rule of law is weakened. In much the same way, when the rules of the government is used by politicians in a way that is obviously unfair, the rule of the government is weakened. It's up to the people in power to fix this by repairing the holes in the system before the people lose faith in the system and take matters into their own hands. It's not that it can't be patched, it that nobody in power cares to patch them and "We the People" can't make the people in power do it either.
 

Silvanus

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In much the same way, when the rules of the government is used by politicians in a way that is obviously unfair, the rule of the government is weakened.
Then how come that almost never happens? Authoritarians are wielding the structures of government in ways that are grossly unfair all over the world, and maintain an iron grip on power.
 

Thaluikhain

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Then how come that almost never happens? Authoritarians are wielding the structures of government in ways that are grossly unfair all over the world, and maintain an iron grip on power.
Erm, was not one reason for the failure of the populace in the UK to abide by covid restrictions compared to, say, New Zealand, that the UK politicians were blatantly ignoring them in a way the NZ politicians were not?

As a rule, though, you are correct, but losing faith in the government does pose some problems.
 
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Baffle

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Erm, was not one reason for the failure of the populace in the UK to abide by covid restrictions compared to, say, New Zealand, that the UK politicians were blatantly ignoring them in a way the NZ politicians were not?

As a rule, though, you are correct, but losing faith in the government does pose some problems.
I think there was an element of British exceptionalism to it as well.

I have to say that the majority of people I know actually did abide by restrictions, even if unhappily, but seeing the degree to which these were applied for us and not for them has further weakened the apathy those people (myself included) have towards politics and change. Giving up rather than getting angry I guess. Little picture thinking, because the big picture is shit.
 

immortalfrieza

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Then how come that almost never happens? Authoritarians are wielding the structures of government in ways that are grossly unfair all over the world, and maintain an iron grip on power.
Temporarily, yes, however if said people in power don't patch the holes, don't consider the people, and thus cause the people to lose faith in the system, then said system will fall. Either because the people actively overthrow it or because it collapses because the people stop being willing to hold up said system. All systems rely upon the people to support it in order to function. Even in tyrannical dictatorships the people have to be willing to be exploited for the dictatorship to remain in power.
 

Ag3ma

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It wasn't that sudden, the SPD is effectively older than the German monarchy.
This little snippet is as false as it is irrelevant.

However, it's mostly just utterly pathetic, from the refusal to engage with the main body of text pointing out what German conservatism of the era was. It is just beyond contempt to simply ignore argument you seem to have no answer to just because it demonstrates that you are wrong.
 
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Ag3ma

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"We the People" can't make the people in power do it either.
"We the people" can, "we" just don't. In the end a large chunk of the public are not particularly invested in politics and governance, and where they engage they are often uninformed, gullible, trivial, and easily distracted.

After all, in the end, what can you say when people fume, despair and deride politicians as a bunch of liars... and then vote for the biggest liars?
 

Baffle

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After all, in the end, what can you say when people fume, despair and deride politicians as a bunch of liars... and then vote for the biggest liars?
The response will always be 'they're all as bad as each other', which is a very successful lie on the Tories' part.
 

The Rogue Wolf

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After all, in the end, what can you say when people fume, despair and deride politicians as a bunch of liars... and then vote for the biggest liars?
It's because we're all selfish pricks.

"The government is full of liars who steal taxpayer money and give it to the undeserving, and they should all go! Except for my guy; he brings home the bacon."
 

Silvanus

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Temporarily, yes, however if said people in power don't patch the holes, don't consider the people, and thus cause the people to lose faith in the system, then said system will fall. Either because the people actively overthrow it or because it collapses because the people stop being willing to hold up said system. All systems rely upon the people to support it in order to function. Even in tyrannical dictatorships the people have to be willing to be exploited for the dictatorship to remain in power.
Said systems have persisted for multiple centuries.

All political systems outside of 100% external dictatorship rely on some degree of the consent of the people to function. They can do so without requiring the informed consent or actual involvement of the people. And they manage. For centuries.
 

tstorm823

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This little snippet is as false as it is irrelevant.

However, it's mostly just utterly pathetic, from the refusal to engage with the main body of text pointing out what German conservatism of the era was. It is just beyond contempt to simply ignore argument you seem to have no answer to just because it demonstrates that you are wrong.
I ignored the part of your response that doesn't have to do with my statements. The point you came in to refute is that the SPD were conservative. Talking about other people isn't going to refute that.
 

Thaluikhain

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Said systems have persisted for multiple centuries.

All political systems outside of 100% external dictatorship rely on some degree of the consent of the people to function. They can do so without requiring the informed consent or actual involvement of the people. And they manage. For centuries.
Erm, in modern times that's not so much the case anymore. Britain and the US are the exceptions, being notably long lived governments. Most other countries have had their governments replaced at least once (often multiple times) in the last 2 centuries or so. Sure, often this is due to external pressures, but often this is due to internal issues.
 

immortalfrieza

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The response will always be 'they're all as bad as each other', which is a very successful lie on the Tories' part.
You mean a truth. Even if someone decides to pedantically pick apart what one party or candidate or the other has done to find which one is a little microscopically tiny bit better than the other it's missing the point, that neither of them are good at period, but also are the only real options. It doesn't even matter if one party is 100x better than the other if said party is still terrible, it just shows how far the standards have fallen that THIS is what we have to choose from.

All the while the vast majority of "We the People" vote for whatever party they've always voted for without concern with who the candidates for that party are or what they've done, the election decided by the ones who actually try to vote for someone based on the campaign, and the rest of the smart ones who recognize what a joke the whole system is and thus don't vote at all.
 

ralfy

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Most economic theorists have been proven largely wrong over the years, Marx among them. Their predictions have failed to bear fruit time and time again so it's not really much of an argument to bring up what people like them have said.

Shakespeare's character said: "The first thing we do is kill all the lawyers." When lawyers take advantage of the way the law is written in a way that's obviously unfair, the rule of law is weakened. In much the same way, when the rules of the government is used by politicians in a way that is obviously unfair, the rule of the government is weakened. It's up to the people in power to fix this by repairing the holes in the system before the people lose faith in the system and take matters into their own hands. It's not that it can't be patched, it that nobody in power cares to patch them and "We the People" can't make the people in power do it either.
 

Baffle

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All the while the vast majority of "We the People" vote for whatever party they've always voted for without concern with who the candidates for that party are or what they've done, the election decided by the ones who actually try to vote for someone based on the campaign, and the rest of the smart ones who recognize what a joke the whole system is and thus don't vote at all.
If the vast majority vote for one party or the other, how are they not the ones who decide the election? Seems like the ones who follow the campaign don't have the power (numbers) to do that.
 

Ag3ma

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I ignored the part of your response that doesn't have to do with my statements. The point you came in to refute is that the SPD were conservative. Talking about other people isn't going to refute that.
If the conservatives are defined and understood, and they do not have the same beliefs and policies as the SPD, then the inescapable logic is that the SPD is not conservative.
 

tstorm823

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If the conservatives are defined and understood, and they do not have the same beliefs and policies as the SPD, then the inescapable logic is that the SPD is not conservative.
That's not how that works. There are infinite ways to be conservative or progressive. Disagreeing with a conservative doesn't mean you aren't also conservative.
 

immortalfrieza

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If the vast majority vote for one party or the other, how are they not the ones who decide the election? Seems like the ones who follow the campaign don't have the power (numbers) to do that.
"All the while the vast majority of "We the People" vote for whatever party they've always voted for."

You do realize that the vast majority don't uniformly all vote for the same party correct? It's the people who pay attention to and actually choose a party on a case by case basis that tip the balance one way or the other.