It's "that" Skyrim topic again...

[Doom972]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

Again, it's not a direct parallel. The Thalmor embody a lot of element from Totalitarian regimes in real histoy, it doesn't entirely ape one. You can just as easily make the claim that the Thalmor are British Empire parallels during the plantations, where they sought to scourge the cultures of indigenous people like they did with Ireland.

I can definitely agree on that. It's just that comparing them specifically to nazis seems extreme.

The point is, they are Fantasy Nazis in as much the same way as the Helghast in Killzone are Space Nazis. I think you are taking the the observations way too seriously.

Why fantasy nazis? Why not fantasy imperialists? That's what I seem them as. A competing, stronger empire. I don't see enough common traits with nazis to call them fantasy nazis. Nazis weren't just about conquering, expanding, and enforcing their ideals/religion - which is what the Thalmor seem to be about, as did real life empires. The nazis also wanted to exterminate an entire people. I don't see the reasoning behind comparing them specifically to the nazis - the absolute scum of humanity, instead of a general empire, which humanity had many of.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

Again, it's not a direct parallel. The Thalmor embody a lot of element from Totalitarian regimes in real histoy, it doesn't entirely ape one. You can just as easily make the claim that the Thalmor are British Empire parallels during the plantations, where they sought to scourge the cultures of indigenous people like they did with Ireland.

I can definitely agree on that. It's just that comparing them specifically to nazis seems extreme.

The point is, they are Fantasy Nazis in as much the same way as the Helghast in Killzone are Space Nazis. I think you are taking the the observations way too seriously.

Why fantasy nazis? Why not fantasy imperialists? That's what I seem them as. A competing, stronger empire. I don't see enough common traits with nazis to call them fantasy nazis. Nazis weren't just about conquering, expanding, and enforcing their ideals/religion - which is what the Thalmor seem to be about, as did real life empires. The nazis also wanted to exterminate an entire people. I don't see the reasoning behind comparing them specifically to the nazis - the absolute scum of humanity, instead of a general empire, which humanity had many of.

Dude, seriously... stop trying to see any deeper meaning behind the association. Nazi references are part of popular culture. That's it. There are no, relevant, imperialist influences in contemporary culture.

Also, the Thalmor are NOT an empire, the Thalmor are not a nationality, they are the governmental representation of the Aldmeri Dominion and a propaganda machine. Similarly "Nazi" isn't a nationality or empire, it's a particular political group with it's own ideologies and agendas. It was the Thalmor that pushed for suppression of Talos Worship as a part of their ideology and political agenda, similar to the Nazis persecution of jews.

"Similar" not identical.

You are taking this WAY too literally and WAY too seriously.

Also, "absolute scum of humanity is Hyperbolic". There have been many cultures in history, empires even, that make the Nazis look like pacifists when it came to dealing with minority cultures. But just like why people call Helghast Space Nazis and Thalmor TES Nazis, it's because in modern popular culture Nazis=Tyrannical Morally corrupt villains.

 

[Muspelheim]

I really, really couldn't tell what would ultimately be best for Skyrim and her people... The Stormcloaks had a point, certainly, but as a Khajiit, I didn't exactly feel welcomed with open arms. The Empire might be the more stable option, but it felt slightly like a betrayal to all the kind and friendly Nords I met on my way, considering it would probably not work out very well on their favour...

The Thalmor, while having gotten their intelligence and repression operations in Skyrim hilariously ruined by an illegal immigrant, haven't gone anywhere, and where their cruel but ever so stylish secret police failed, their regular ol' army probably wouldn't. That's what scared me most. How did the rest of Tamriel, like occupied Colovia and Valenwood, end up having to pay for Skyrim acting up? I sure hope that cat didn't leave family in Elsweyr to be persecuted in retaliation.

Mother Skyrim and her people seems to be in for dark days no matter what I do...

In the end, I just pretended my character seized power (by virtue of being a mythical hero and a sneaky, backstabbin' cat to the clawtips) sometime after I stopped playing. Manipulating the vacuum and becoming and benevolent tyrant that could keep an acceptable peace going.

Here is how I imagined his coronation ceremony and subsequent feast would've looked.

<youtube=wgtcha9yLeA>
Not Pictured: Ulfric is weeping for his country in the gent's room.

 

[Thyunda]

I really, really couldn't tell what would ultimately be best for Skyrim and her people... The Stormcloaks had a point, certainly, but as a Khajiit, I didn't exactly feel welcomed with open arms. The Empire might be the more stable option, but it felt slightly like a betrayal to all the kind and friendly Nords I met on my way, considering it would probably not work out very well on their favour...

The Thalmor, while having gotten their intelligence and repression operations in Skyrim hilariously ruined by an illegal immigrant, haven't gone anywhere, and where their cruel but ever so stylish secret police failed, their regular ol' army probably wouldn't. That's what scared me most. How did the rest of Tamriel, like occupied Colovia and Valenwood, end up having to pay for Skyrim acting up? I sure hope that cat didn't leave family in Elsweyr to be persecuted in retaliation.

Mother Skyrim and her people seems to be in for dark days no matter what I do...

In the end, I just pretended my character seized power (by virtue of being a mythical hero and a sneaky, backstabbin' cat to the clawtips) sometime after I stopped playing. Manipulating the vacuum and becoming and benevolent tyrant that could keep an acceptable peace going.

Here is how I imagined his coronation ceremony and subsequent feast would've looked.

<youtube=wgtcha9yLeA>
Not Pictured: Ulfric is weeping for his country in the gent's room.

Skyrim is populated by the descendants of the first humans in Tamriel, and of course descendants of those persecuted, conquered and enslaved by elves. Normally this wouldn't be an excuse for the Stormcloaks' racist tendencies, but you have to have some sympathy when the elves are doing the exact thing the Nords hated them for in the first place. And sure, it's wrong to say all dark elves are nothing but poverty-stricken, thieving immigrants, but then their homeland explodes and all the refugees lose all their money and possessions and have to take to petty theft to get by in Nordic cities...I don't like racism, but I can sympathise.


OT - I was with the Stormcloaks. The empire had been hamstrung, and honestly I believed the Altmer had cut something vital. The Empire's might had been challenged and duly defeated, and while a bastion of Imperial might could have remained fortified in the mountains of Skyrim, Cyrodiil was ultimately lost. And of course it was, the terrain was not very defensible and the Imperial City was so easily surrounded. The story would be different in an assault on Skyrim - an Aldmeri army would be torn apart trying to enter the region in one of the very few mountain passes - hence the Imperial ambushes snaring so many prisoners with so few casualties. The only way around that would be flight, and the only beings capable of that are dragons, and it's quite unlikely that the high elves would gain control of those.

I chose Ulfric Stormcloak because I figured at this stage the Nords needed the moral and traditionalist support. Sure, over the course of the war, the resident elves would be relatively badly treated, but as a king or commander I would rather be putting down scattered peasant-elf revolts than dealing with a full-on, separatist faction of Nords. Nords that own property and have coin, Nords that could buy support or actually shelter Thalmor agents. The empire put barriers in communication, relying on reports and bureaucracy, leading to delayed responses and ultimately restricting initiative. I personally think the moot system works far better, especially since the headstrong tendencies of Nords, while maybe resulting in the occasional blunder, would lead to decisive action far quicker and far more deliberately than the hesitant hand of the dying empire.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Meh, I was playing as a vampire crime lord, so I went with what would benefit me from a roleplayer's point of view. I could either prop up Ulfric as my puppet and turn Skyrim into my personal people ranch, or I could help the Imperials win, get in good with the upper court and the Imperial military, and use them to spread my influence to the rest of the Empire. After some deliberation, I went with the latter.

I mean, of course none of that actually happened, but it's still fun to roleplay. Either way, I still slaughtered any Thalmor I could find and razed their emissary.

 

[LetalisK]

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

Either a prolonged conflict, or a Stormcloak victory help the Dominion. If Skyrim secedes, then High Rock is completely cut off from Cyrodiil, and may secede as well. There will be no power large enough to oppose the Dominion.
The civil war is exactly what the Thalmor wanted when they wrote the Concordant.

I haven't gotten through the game, but I'll play devil's advocate.

The Empire isn't a great threat anymore, at least in its current form. The Thalmor have too much control over it for it to become again the threat it once was, particularly if the Empire is sapping its own strength trying to keep its territories under its control like gripping so many grains of sand because of its own decaying political system. Skyrim reaching independence not only throws off the yoke of the Empire, but also the Thalmor, as once the Empire is driven out there is no reason for Ulfric to tolerate the Thalmor anymore. Thus Skyrim can grow and build armies unfettered as can those provinces that would be cut off from the Empire and most likely secede as well, like High Rock. The only way I see siding with the Empire being a greater threat to the Thalmor is if the Empire suddenly nuts up and starts undoing their own political system to make it easier to get things done, but I don't see that as the most likely scenario. An unchained Skyrim is more dangerous to the Thalmor than a neutered Empire.

 

[Agayek]

Only problem is I find it really hard to sympathize with some of the stormcloaks worse elements and I like the imperial Jarls more.

Very much this. Every time I try to make a Stormcloak character, Whiterun gets attacked and Balgruuf gets ousted and I just have to go over to Windhelm and murder every single one of them.

Whiterun's easily my favorite city and Balgruuf's the best Jarl of them all. Having to actually attack his city never sits right with me.

 

[Doom972]

I actually think that it might be for the best if the Thalmor just take over. The empire is weak in its current state (It's basically just High Rock, Skyrim, and Cyrodiil), and the current ruling Mede dynasty doesn't have the divine right that the Septims had. Skyrim would be very weak as an independent nation, and won't be able to resist oppose the elves' numbers and skill with magic.

I think the Thalmor would be pretty happy to have their biggest rival lose a province thanks to their plots. It may be less profiteble then both sides weakening each other but the empire losing Skyrim seems like a clear victory for the Thalmor. The way i see it the point still stands. Ulfric is playing right into the Thalmor's hands.

It does make sense, but you can actually find a journal in the Thalmor embassy that approves what the OP said.

For the better if the Nazi elves take over? Somehow I don't think they will rule more justly then the Mede empire.

Doesn't the document say the civil war continuing is just the desired state of affairs and thus a quick end must be avoided. Even if both sides weakening each other is the best outcome the empire losing a province would be a very nice consolation prize in the case of a quick Stormcloak victory.

Nazis? I don't really see anything resembling a concentration camp, or even a hint of it in text/dialogue. Is there something I missed?
They just have an inquisition-like organization that forbids the worship of Talos. All that it means is that Talos worshipping has to be done in secret. It's not fair, but it's not very different to what the humans did when they conquered the old Aldmeri Empire, if I recall correctly.

They have Justiciars who are constantly rooting out Talos Worship, who have the powers of Judge, Jury and Executioner. Basically the Thalmor Justiciars are Gestapo.

They sound more like the Spanish Inquisition to me, but fair enough, I see your point there.

There is also a Fort to the north east of Solitude where Thalmor "interrogate" Talos worshippers (a parallel to Jews) and Stormcloaks. It's placed in a suspiciously remote location behind the northernmost mountains at the very tip of Skyrim by the sea and, though they claim they have imperial permission, there are no imperial officers present. It is the only place inhabited solely by Thalmor with the exception of the Embassies restricted areas.

Jews weren't imprisoned in this manner. Jews were either restricted to the ghettos to die of sickness and/or starvation, sent to forced work camps, or sent to death camps. In short, they were treated like animals, not prisoners. I checked this place out, and what I understood is that these prisoners are held because the Thalmor consider them a risk to their cause (probably because they know certain Thalmor secrets) or because they want to extract information from them.

There is one quest you can take to rescue the Son of a stormcloak supporter which ultimately involves storming the place (even as an imperial or altmer). There is a bugged part of the quest where you can ask Tullius to free the man, but even in modded games that have that section fixed you will still have storm the place.

I know. I did the quest. What's your point? Also, notice that the Legion knows about this place.

Now at this point it's easy to assume it's POW camp. But, you find in the prison cells there are also Khajiit, Argonian and Dunmer prisoners, of which are highly unlikely to be Talos worshippers (Dunmer commonly worship Daedra, Argonians worship the Hist and Sithis, Khajiit worship a variation of the old Aldmeri pantheon) or Stormcloak supporters (due to the fact the stormcloaks are resentful towards all non-nords).

What better choice for Imperial/Stormcloak spies? The Thalmor would immediately suspect nords, but other races have a better chance to acquire intelligence unnoticed. It could also be that these are just some poor sods who stumbled upon Thalmor secrets and are considered too dangerous to be left free.

This fits in with Altmers notorious superiority complex over other "lesser" races. What used to be an air of arrogance in earlier games has become a full blown racial supremacist culture.

Every race has a large share of bigots. The nords of Skyrim in particular. Saying an entire race has superiority complex is a bit racist. I've met plenty of nice high elves in Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim.

There are a lot of Parralells between Nazis and the Thalmor. They aren't a literal reimagining of them in a fantasy setting, but they have a lot of components that smell like Fascist Nazi Germany, and I doubt that is a coincidence.

Lets' see:

Leader Worship? No. I didn't see any evidence of them worshipping a leader like the Germans worshipped Hitler. I don't even know the leader's name or title.

Systematic genocide? Again, I don't see it. A select few prisoners and selective executions of Talos Worshippers isn't genocide.

A vision of a pure elf-only Tamriel? Perhaps. It was a little unclear to me if that's their ultimate intention, so I'll leave this one.

Again, it's not a direct parallel. The Thalmor embody a lot of element from Totalitarian regimes in real histoy, it doesn't entirely ape one. You can just as easily make the claim that the Thalmor are British Empire parallels during the plantations, where they sought to scourge the cultures of indigenous people like they did with Ireland.

I can definitely agree on that. It's just that comparing them specifically to nazis seems extreme.

The point is, they are Fantasy Nazis in as much the same way as the Helghast in Killzone are Space Nazis. I think you are taking the the observations way too seriously.

Why fantasy nazis? Why not fantasy imperialists? That's what I seem them as. A competing, stronger empire. I don't see enough common traits with nazis to call them fantasy nazis. Nazis weren't just about conquering, expanding, and enforcing their ideals/religion - which is what the Thalmor seem to be about, as did real life empires. The nazis also wanted to exterminate an entire people. I don't see the reasoning behind comparing them specifically to the nazis - the absolute scum of humanity, instead of a general empire, which humanity had many of.

Dude, seriously... stop trying to see any deeper meaning behind the association. Nazi references are part of popular culture. That's it. There are no, relevant, imperialist influences in contemporary culture.

Also, the Thalmor are NOT an empire, the Thalmor are not a nationality, they are the governmental representation of the Aldmeri Dominion and a propaganda machine. Similarly "Nazi" isn't a nationality or empire, it's a particular political group with it's own ideologies and agendas. It was the Thalmor that pushed for suppression of Talos Worship as a part of their ideology and political agenda, similar to the Nazis persecution of jews.

"Similar" not identical.

You are taking this WAY too literally and WAY too seriously.

Also, "absolute scum of humanity is Hyperbolic". There have been many cultures in history, empires even, that make the Nazis look like pacifists when it came to dealing with minority cultures. But just like why people call Helghast Space Nazis and Thalmor TES Nazis, it's because in modern popular culture Nazis=Tyrannical Morally corrupt villains.

I don't see much of a resemblance without the genocidal goal and the cult-like worship of leadership. With your definition every almost every evil group in any game/movie/books could be called nazis. You might as well call the Scoiatel from the Witcher series Fantasy Al-Qaeda.

 

[LetalisK]

Ulfric is passionate, I will give him that, many were swayed by his speech in the Palace of Kings (hell, I almost was swayed) But that doesn't excuse his past crimes of regicide and discrimination.

Or did Ulfric kill the king in a duel the king accepted? Despite its faults, I think Skyrim did a good job of keeping things sufficiently muddy.

 

[God'sFist]

I have played morrowind to skyrim and I look at the empire that I once held dear and I feel sorry that they have fallen so far. I would say their prime was just before the oblivion crisis. Without the septim line they will only grow weaker till they fall apart in shambles. The thalmor will pick up the pieces and try to do their thing but ultimatly fail. I will miss the empire they were a strong ruling body. By the by nords are terrible people in game they outright killed the falmor while taking their land such as the indian vs the americans bit. They messed with anybody that wasn't them it was horrible. anyway thats my two cents on the matter.

edit: it's not the empire that tries to kill you in the beginning it is the captain who doesn't want to do the paperwork who wants you dead. yeah laziness tried to kill hows that food for thought.

 

[shintakie10]

The empire are no saints, but they are the lesser of two evils, at least with an Empire victory, the Elves and Argonians in Windhelm will get justice (I like Dark Elves, so the Nords screwing them over is a bad thing)

Psh, who needs the Empire to give the Argonians justice when the Argonians themselves can do it.

Canonically, the Argonians of Black Marsh are in the best spot to take over pretty much everythin at this point. They're the only ones who not only didn't get blasted to hell durin the Oblivion crisis, they defended their land and sucessfully assaulted the Daedra on their home turf to the point the Daedra turn and ran while closin their own Oblivion portals. The Empire couldnt do that. The Nords couldn't do that. The Redguards couldn't do it. Hell, even the Thalmor couldn't do that.

Not only did they assault the Daedra in their own lands and forced the Daedra to close their own portals in fear for their lives, the Argonians were able to assault and capture almost the entirety of Morrowind while everyone else sulked and licked their wounds.

Think about that for a minute. The Argonians now control the entire eastern side of Tamriel. All of it (or at least the vast majority of it). They are completely allied under a single government that was able to bring together every single warrin tribe. They're completely neutral in the ongoin cold war (soon to be not so cold) between the Thalmor and the Empire (and if the Stormcloaks have their way, a 3 way war between the Thalmor, the Empire, and Nords) which means that when the war actually starts they'll be able to sit back, relax, and then mop up the winners and losers.

Seriously. Who cares about Stormcloaks and Imperials when the real winners will be the Argonians in the end.

Ulfric is passionate, I will give him that, many were swayed by his speech in the Palace of Kings (hell, I almost was swayed) But that doesn't excuse his past crimes of regicide and discrimination.

Or did Ulfric kill the king in a duel the king accepted? Despite its faults, I think Skyrim did a good job of keeping things sufficiently muddy.

Eh, I still find it shady. He killed the king in a duel the king accepted, yet did not disclose his ability to use the...uhh...words escape me at the moment.

It was totally within the rules (were there even rules?), but it was the equivalent of two people agreein to an honorable fight then one of them brought a wrist mounted rocket launcher to the fight. The letter of the law says its cool, but no one who actually thought about it would think this was anythin other than a set up.

 

[LetalisK]

Ulfric is passionate, I will give him that, many were swayed by his speech in the Palace of Kings (hell, I almost was swayed) But that doesn't excuse his past crimes of regicide and discrimination.

Or did Ulfric kill the king in a duel the king accepted? Despite its faults, I think Skyrim did a good job of keeping things sufficiently muddy.

Eh, I still find it shady. He killed the king in a duel the king accepted, yet did not disclose his ability to use the...uhh...words escape me at the moment.

It was totally within the rules (were there even rules?), but it was the equivalent of two people agreein to an honorable fight then one of them brought a wrist mounted rocket launcher to the fight. The letter of the law says its cool, but no one who actually thought about it would think this was anythin other than a set up.

Oh, indeed. I never claimed Ulfric was an honorable hero. Merely saying the game is a mess of moral grey. I kinda like it, actually.

 

[Josh123914]

Ulfric is passionate, I will give him that, many were swayed by his speech in the Palace of Kings (hell, I almost was swayed) But that doesn't excuse his past crimes of regicide and discrimination.

Or did Ulfric kill the king in a duel the king accepted? Despite its faults, I think Skyrim did a good job of keeping things sufficiently muddy.

Ulfric basically killed the king because he didn't like how he was friendly with the empire, so he challenged him to something akin to bringing a gun to a sword fight (I doubt the king expected to have Ulfric use the Voice) then Ulfric turned tail and waged war on an empire trying to recover to fight a force that may spell doom for most of Tamriel (he could have talked or fought the empire AFTER the war with the Thalmor)

It was also revealed by Sybille that Torygg held Ulfric in high regard, had Ulfric simply talked to him about it, Torygg would most likely have been swayed.

swayed him to do what? Hand the crown over? I
I'm serious here because I never really understood what Ulfric would be swaying him to do exactly.

Anyway I sided with the Stormcloaks because regardless of what you think of Ulfric, he knew that the Empire has been a sinking ship for 200 years.

Seriously, Black Marsh, Valenwood and Summerset seceded and the Empire did NOTHING. After Vivec's flying space turd flew into Vvardenfell at terminal velocity and covered Morrowind in ash the Dark Elves were in bad times. Then they get invaded by a hoard of Argonians that had nowhere else to live, House Redoran pretty much single-handedly fought the war themselves and quietly declared independence.

So just before the Great war, the Empire went from 9 provinces under the Septims, to 4 under the Medes. Then Hammerfell becomes its own entity (which it does a very good job at btw) and so The Empire is down to 3: Skyrim, Cyrodiil and High Rock.

So at this point all of the Empire's resources are being devoted to the next Great war and siphoning all valuables from High Rock and Skyrim to fix up the pillaged parts of Cyrodiil, so things look pretty bleak.

So under those conditions I can see why the Stormcloaks would want to leave, seeing as Morrowind and Hammerfell are doing better than Skyrim financially even when each of them had to repair from invasions and losses of WHOLE CITIES.

As for the other province, I'm under the impression that High Rock will never really decide to secede because it is made up of dozens of little kingdoms, making decision making out there about as hard there as passing anything in the US congress :/


For TES 6, I forsee an alliance of the Independent northern provinces fighting the Dominion. So an untouched High Rock, battle hardened Hammerfell, newly independent Skyrim, Great Houses of Morrowind (Sadras, Redoran, Telvanni, Dres and Indoril) banding together to topple the crazier elven power, and MAYBE the Argonians will chip in, but I only see that happening if anyone attacks them.
In which case Zerg Rush impending.

 

[shintakie10]

Seriously, Black Marsh, Valenwood and Summerset seceded and the Empire did NOTHING. After Vivec's flying space turd flew into Vvardenfell at terminal velocity and covered Morrowind in ash the Dark Elves were in bad times. Then they get invaded by a hoard of Argonians that had nowhere else to live, House Redoran pretty much single-handedly fought the war themselves and quietly declared independence.

To be fair, the Empire really didn't have much it could do. The only ones to have been hit harder by the Oblivion Crisis are the Dunmer of Morrowind (though it is technically possible the Thalmor got wrecked and just haven't told anyone yet) and a good portion of those losses were because the Argonians invaded almost directly after.

Related note, I still don't quite understand how House Redoran was able to hold off the Argonians if they got their ass whooped by the Daedra and the Daedra got absolutely thrashed by the Argonians. Really wish there was more lore about that. Hell, really wish there was more Argonian lore period.

 

[Josh123914]

Ulfric is passionate, I will give him that, many were swayed by his speech in the Palace of Kings (hell, I almost was swayed) But that doesn't excuse his past crimes of regicide and discrimination.

Or did Ulfric kill the king in a duel the king accepted? Despite its faults, I think Skyrim did a good job of keeping things sufficiently muddy.

Ulfric basically killed the king because he didn't like how he was friendly with the empire, so he challenged him to something akin to bringing a gun to a sword fight (I doubt the king expected to have Ulfric use the Voice) then Ulfric turned tail and waged war on an empire trying to recover to fight a force that may spell doom for most of Tamriel (he could have talked or fought the empire AFTER the war with the Thalmor)

It was also revealed by Sybille that Torygg held Ulfric in high regard, had Ulfric simply talked to him about it, Torygg would most likely have been swayed.

swayed him to do what? Hand the crown over? I
I'm serious here because I never really understood what Ulfric would be swaying him to do exactly.

Huh? Talk to Torygg about making Skyrum independent and free of empire rule.

He wanted Torygg to not be so friendly with the empire that banned Talos worship, he skipped negotiation and deemed Torygg to young and weak and challenged him using the voice as his trump card. He then believed that since he basically killed the king of Skyrim, he would be the one to bring Skyrim to independence.

Whether or not you support the Stormcloaks, they are stupid for picking a fight when the Thalmor want to conquer everyone, instead of waiting, I dunno, after the impeding war? Instead of draining resources from an army that can fight back. We also have no idea if Ulfric would "ally" himself with any other province in any way. The empire wants to bring all provinces together to fight back against the Thalmor.

I know the Empire is not the goody two-shoes faction like some people want them to be, but as far as I see it, they are the lesser of two evils. They did leave Hammerfell to fight for themselves (although it was stated that the empire was so wrecked from the last war that going against the Thalmor would have annihilated them)

We have no idea which side is canon, the next game will most likely not bring it up or will give ambiguous comments towards it.

Well that's what I thought initially, but there's no way the Empire would just allow their only reliable source of manpower to just leave.
Also if you finish the Stormcloak campaign Ulfric states that he's sent envoys to other provinces for alliance proposals. Specifically High Rock and Hammerfell, and apparently the Hammerfell one has at least responded.

The reason I'm against the Empire is that they have Thalmor spies all over the place, and are in key positions that they could cripple the Empire from the inside if any war was to break out.
Plus, the Thalmor are playing the long game. They don't want provinces to secede. They want them nice and weak, but unified so that if any single province gets strong they can just slap down another treaty to weaken them again.

Seriously, Black Marsh, Valenwood and Summerset seceded and the Empire did NOTHING. After Vivec's flying space turd flew into Vvardenfell at terminal velocity and covered Morrowind in ash the Dark Elves were in bad times. Then they get invaded by a hoard of Argonians that had nowhere else to live, House Redoran pretty much single-handedly fought the war themselves and quietly declared independence.

To be fair, the Empire really didn't have much it could do. The only ones to have been hit harder by the Oblivion Crisis are the Dunmer of Morrowind (though it is technically possible the Thalmor got wrecked and just haven't told anyone yet) and a good portion of those losses were because the Argonians invaded almost directly after.

Related note, I still don't quite understand how House Redoran was able to hold off the Argonians if they got their ass whooped by the Daedra and the Daedra got absolutely thrashed by the Argonians. Really wish there was more lore about that. Hell, really wish there was more Argonian lore period.

EVERYBODY got hit hard by the Oblivion Crisis. We only saw Cyrodiil's damage but it was like that across all of Tamriel. In fact Cyrodiil probably had it easiest since the ENTIRE LEGION was recalled to defend Cyrodiil. So they pretty much left everyone else to fend for themselves.

The only reason that Black Marsh is different is because of the Hist. The trees noticed all of these gates popping up and immediately went
'Shit, CODE RED. ALL ARGONIANS RETURN TO HOMELAND'
and it worked, because the Hist has a small sort of hivemind thing going on with the Argonians.
So just think. Every able bodied member of an ENTIRE RACE is sent back here and absolutely swarms the place. The Daedra shut the Oblivion Gates in Black Marsh because of the sheer volume of troops they had to fend off.
After the Oblivion Crisis the Trees then had millions of Argonians crammed into the homeland, many of whom displaced. So what did they do? Well their long time nemesis, the Dunmer, just went through Ragnarok. Lets throw our remaining surplus at those guys, afterwards they can all go home.

So the Argonians steamroll much of Morrowind, however Redoran and Telvanni were lucky in that much of their most concentrated power is towards the northern 'fingers' of the province and so they were spared both the Red Mountain ash avalanche and the first wave of Argonians.
Telvanni fills in little more than a support role, since a substantial amount of their power was still being devoted to Vvardenfell cleanup, but Redoran rallied what remaining troops the province had, (along with their remaining stockpile) and drove back the Argonan occupiers (most of which were inexperienced, as the Hist used EVERY ABLE BODIED Argonian, from farmers to salesmen to actual warriors)

For TES 6 Black Marsh will be the sleeping giant.
They COULD in theory wipe any province adjacent to them off of the map right now, but they don't because the Hist deem neither the Dunmer nor the Empire as a threat to its existence right now.
That probably will change when the Dominion come looking for Black Marshes' ''Pillar'' though.

 

[LetalisK]

Whether or not you support the Stormcloaks, they are stupid for picking a fight when the Thalmor want to conquer everyone, instead of waiting, I dunno, after the impeding war? Instead of draining resources from an army that can fight back. We also have no idea if Ulfric would "ally" himself with any other province in any way. The empire wants to bring all provinces together to fight back against the Thalmor.

That's assuming one thought the Empire could even fight such a war. I'm of the mind that at this point the Empire is inextricably decaying until the Thalmor finally absorb them and Skyrim could either decay along with it or try to go down fighting. Keeping the Empire together is just fighting the inevitable, imo. Of course, so could freeing Skyrim, but I see it as at least a better shot of accomplishing something.

We have no idea which side is canon, the next game will most likely not bring it up or will give ambiguous comments towards it.

Sadly, this is probably true as they probably know what kind of fury would be unleashed if they picked a canon side.