J.J. Abrams Explains Why Force Awakens Leia Never Became a Jedi
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I've often wondered if there's some Jedi or Sith in the EU who fought with only the Force. No lightsaber or anything, just ridiculous amounts of Force power. On a similar note, I've wondered if it was possible to create a Force-only character in a Star Wars pen-n-paper RPG that was still usable in combat. Any answers from anyone?rgrekejin said:
To answer the former, that's not a matter of necessity, but tradition and politics among the Order itself. Get 'em hooked while they're young. In fact that's something Luke actually did in the EU post Endor, allowing anyone to begin attending the Order regardless of age.Ihateregistering1 said:
To answer the latter, it's both random and genetic, and we don't know the going rate of inheritance, since figuring that out would in universe require the formation of dynasties, which the Jedi certainly weren't interested in, and the Sith wouldn't have been cohesive enough as a society to allow to form.
EDIT: Though we have seen instances of siblings who aren't both force sensitive, with Darth Zannah's brother coming to mind first and foremost.
I can believe she didn't want to be a Jedi, after all there is a shit load of baggage tied to the term. What I don't believe so strongly is that she wouldn't take a month or so with Luke to learn a few useful tricks of the trade like summoning a weapon to your your hand, throat punching someone from across a table without moving or convincing Dion from accounting to throw himself into a pond after the seventh grope of your ass.
I mean learning Shoalin Kung Fu does not make you a Shoalin Monk.
I mean learning Shoalin Kung Fu does not make you a Shoalin Monk.
Gordon_4 said:
It took hiring Yoda, spooky, isolated planet and a strong conviction to become a Jedi with Luke. Leia has neither - because even if we put her on Dagobah, Luke is not going to exploit it to the full extent as a teacher, due to still being clueless about its properties. It's not just "too old" - it was hard enough to unlearn everything for a naive farm boy. Do the same with well-educated, stubborn, experienced politician.
I doubt "Force training" is similar to WalMart. Can't just pick what's convenient, otherwise you would be having a number of self-taught half-Jedi running around the Galaxy due to its scale alone. It's not like the Order, even at its height, was capable of siphoning every Force-sensitive kid from inhabited systems.
Finally - you might ask Jolee Bindo about results of teaching something Force-related in a half-assed manner.
Well, the fact that we only see snippets of Luke's training with Yoda doesn't mean he didn't give him some very in depth lessons about what the Jedi stand for. They never really explain how much time passes while Han and the others are evading the Empire, or how long it took them to travel (without lightspeed), to Bespin, and any number of other things that got removed with the screen wipe to the next scene. It could've been weeks, or maybe even months of time. Space is big, it takes a long time to go anywhere.bluegate said:
I agree though, that based on the other lore, Luke's understanding of the Jedi teachings (which is different from an understanding of the Force), is limited. I'd be willing to bet though, in all those hours of riding around on Luke's back, yammering at him while he trains, that Yoda taught him the fundamentals of how to be a Good Force user. I mean we hear him saying as much while Luke is running around.
Buuuut, here's another thing. It's been established that not every single person who was a Jedi, or Jedi trained, was killed in Order 66. So it's possible, that in the past 30 years, Luke went around trying to find some of those people, and learn further from them. We also have, whoever that woman is who is doing the voice over in the trailers. She definitely sounds like she's VERY familiar with the Force. So maybe she's an old Jedi who also survived. Or maybe just a really wise Force-Sensitive that has spent a lifetime with the Force, but doesn't know jack about the Jedi ways. *shrugs* We just don't know, there are too many variables.
As to your point about nobody being a rigorous Jedi post the purge, I would agree. The new Order will likely be very different in some of it's methods. I mean hell we saw that in the comics with Luke's New Order. They could have children and all kinds of stuff. So yeah, won't surprise me if JJ tosses aside some of the more poorly thought out aspects of the Jedi teachings, considering how human society has changed in their understanding of things like relationships and intimacy, and how it impacts a healthy mind.
There isn't a concrete answer for this. We assume how long he was with Yoda, but the movie never actually tells us. As I said in a post higher up, space is big, it takes along time to get anywhere. So we don't know if it was days, weeks, or months that Luke was training while Han and the others were avoiding the Empire. I personally assume a few weeks at most. But it's never actually stated. As to why he was able to one, it's strictly down the Hero's Journey narrative. He faced his trials, confronted the great villain, and through courage and self-sacrifice, he was able to win. Was Yoda maybe pulling his chain a bit when he said "Only after you defeat Vader, a Jedi will you be." ? Probably. He thought it was damn funny when Luke said "Then I am a Jedi", after being told he had no more training. I think it was simply the "You've learned how to do the stuff, now you need to go practice a shit load for years before being a full Jedi Knight. But hey, Yoda didn't have many options, there was only 2 people he could try and train, so you know, you make allowances based on the circumstances. But Luke wasn't a perfect product anyway. He still gave into his emotions, fear, anger, and this would reflect the idea that he has the training, but not the discipline. And it almost cost him everything in the end. He let his emotions rule him when he fought Vader, but he was able to draw himself back from the edge, before making the conscious choice to take a life in anger and rage. He let his training and his discipline win out in the end. So in that way, he was a Jedi. But he didn't "win" because of that training. He won, because he was able to persuade his father to turn back to the Light. So his victory was more of a mental one, as opposed to martial prowess. He was getting his butt kicked by Vader through the entire finale of Return. Only in those outbursts of anger did he actually match up to Vader. And every time he did, the Emperor would laugh, knowing he was slowly embracing his darker emotions. But in the end, he stood before a great evil, to defend others from harm, and refused to give into the Dark Side, even if it meant his own life. To me, that is what made him a Jedi. Not "I'm a Force flipping badass that totally stomped your lapdog Emps! Recognize!" *throws up Jedi gang signs* kind of thing. Or at least that's my take on it. Being a Jedi isn't about being able to do the Force stuff, as Sith can do the exact same stuff. It's about how you handle your challenges, and what things you hold dear, that you are willing to fight/die for.Ihateregistering1 said:
Again, nothing concrete. Most of the "lore" about Star Wars is from the EU stuff, which is now not canon. I would say that it's not a 100% sure thing. I mean, the Skywalkers' are an exception I think. "The Force, runs strong in your family." Implying that not every genetic line has such a strong connection. There are examples in the EU of entire races being Force-sensitive, implying it's indeed a genetic thing. But it basically boils down to "The Force is as common as the writer needs it to be for their story." There is no genetic probability chart or anything that perfectly illustrates the % chance someone will be Force-sensitive.Ihateregistering1 said:
I've always seen Leia as one of those really good examples of a proper neutral character... even in the EU she wasn't distinctly 'this' or 'that' she was more subdued and stuck to what she needed to get done then bother with all that light/dark shenanigans~
personally i think she's EXACTLY the kind of person that SHOULD have force powers: she's pragmatic, self-less, and gets shit done!
she doesn't do things because its morally right/wrong but because it NEEDS to get done! Empire running things into the ground and slavery? get rid of it... they blew up her planet, all she did was destroy the weapon (it could have been worse!) get captured and forced to be a slave girl? patiently bides time till 'owner' is alone with her then strangles his ass, grabs a gun and plans to hoof it out till the boys showed up... woman didn't hold grudges and got things done~ a fine neutral leader~
and the kind of person i'd RATHER have the potential power to crush space ships with her mind or throw out lightning like no one's business... she wouldn't be impotent like the Jedi or emotionally unstable like the Sith, she'd likely only user her powers when needed, when appropriate, and in the correct measure...
so yea, i'm fine with her NOT being a 'jedi'... just kinda wish she was so much more~ but for all we know she's doing that its just harder to tell _._
personally i think she's EXACTLY the kind of person that SHOULD have force powers: she's pragmatic, self-less, and gets shit done!
she doesn't do things because its morally right/wrong but because it NEEDS to get done! Empire running things into the ground and slavery? get rid of it... they blew up her planet, all she did was destroy the weapon (it could have been worse!) get captured and forced to be a slave girl? patiently bides time till 'owner' is alone with her then strangles his ass, grabs a gun and plans to hoof it out till the boys showed up... woman didn't hold grudges and got things done~ a fine neutral leader~and the kind of person i'd RATHER have the potential power to crush space ships with her mind or throw out lightning like no one's business... she wouldn't be impotent like the Jedi or emotionally unstable like the Sith, she'd likely only user her powers when needed, when appropriate, and in the correct measure...
so yea, i'm fine with her NOT being a 'jedi'... just kinda wish she was so much more~ but for all we know she's doing that its just harder to tell _._
Sounds logical. She's spent decades with the Rebellion and she's not going to abandon it to improve herself in the ways of the Force (though tempting it may be). I just hope she isn't being tempted by the dark side, that wouldn't fit her character. Besides, we've already have a dark side politician. I think once was enough.
Eh, if you'll recall they already deemed that Luke was too old to become a Jedi at that time before making an exception, same with Anakin. Likewise, Luke wasn't really a master Jedi but would have been the only one to be able to train her. If he was busy with his own shit or if he wanted to ensure that the old rules were followed then she really had no where to turn. Maybe a master like Yoda could have done the training justice like he did with Luke but he was already hesitant. Also, another Skywalker Jedi would be a huge risk considering the power they have and their tendency towards darkness (Luke was by no means a spotless hero).
That would be interesting, and I seem to recall their being some EU beings that behaved like that, but what I was really getting at here is that it would be interesting to see some way that a Force-sensitive individual could use the their powers in a non-combat capacity. Simply tapping into the Force as a way of powering WayCool space battles always seemed to me like a waste of potential.Nooners said:
Some people train to be kung-fu masters. Others become CEOs. The former would likely win in a one-on-one fight, but the latter likely has greater influence nethertheless. Leia's probably right to focus on the path that'll make the most sense for the Republic, now that the Rebellion's supposedly won.
Although frankly, I have my doubts about that. An Empire that big has its own inertia beyond its leader, especially since Palpatine doesn't strike me as the micromanager type so much as the "reign from on high as a dread and terrible god" sort. The Empire probably still has some wind left in it, and she's more threat to it as a politician/commander figure than taking time off to learn how to throw stuff with her brain.
Although frankly, I have my doubts about that. An Empire that big has its own inertia beyond its leader, especially since Palpatine doesn't strike me as the micromanager type so much as the "reign from on high as a dread and terrible god" sort. The Empire probably still has some wind left in it, and she's more threat to it as a politician/commander figure than taking time off to learn how to throw stuff with her brain.
It's a little irritating seeing headlines which detail parts of a film most of us haven't seen. I know that it's hard to give it a title that doesn't give that away, but it's also pretty annoying seeing what amounts to a spoiler for a film that's not even released as a headline.
If you play old republic, there are non knight Jedis, consulars or something. pretty much the same with the Roleplay so it is perfectly feasible Leia could have taken the less combative role after the empire fell, but since the turmoil caused by something like that might create a lot of unrest I guess she would be too busy holding the republic together to really follow up on the Jedi side of things.