Japanophiles - WARNING: Essay on the Real Japan

[Terramax]

The internet being the internet, things often seem worse than they are because if you go looking for stuff to prove how weird people get over a specific subject you will find it. (Case in point: I once found an idol website for Philip Schofield, detailing absolutely everything he's ever done, with photos from the beginning of his career right up to present day and, if you know who he is, you'll understand just how fucking insane it is that anyone would care that much about Philip Schofield.)

Holy cow, really?

I didn't even know Phiip Schofield had any fans. I recently saw footage of him 'confronting' the PM with a list of Pedophiles, completely disrespecting the law. What a moron!

 

[Yuuki]

I disagree that using Romaji makes you bad at pronouncing Japanese words. If you heard me (or even some of my friends) reading off a piece of paper with Romaji written on it you would practically not know the difference between me and a real Japanese person talking (albeit I'll be going a lot slower).

No, the main reason Romaji is discouraged is because it completely fails to comprehend the CONTEXT of the words and/or sounds. In written Japanese there are so many homonyms (words that sound the same but have different meanings) that you can have practically 10 different meanings to a word that sounds exactly the same based purely on the context being used or the characters you use to write it in. If people think "two", "too" and "to" (or there/their/they're) was bad then Japanese will blow your mind, homonyms everywhere!

Romaji addresses none of the true expression or context behind sounds or words, it boils down the language into pure syllables and that's why some people feel it "disrespects" Japanese in a certain light. While it's one way to get hang of the pronunciation of the words, for someone who really wants to learn the language Romaji is the worst possible way to start, start off with Hiragana/Katakana and then Kanji! Then you will appreciate the true beauty of Japanese.

And that's the real reason

Agreed with everything else, good post.

 

[balladbird]

Personally, I've come to theorize that the reason the niche of what we see from Japan is so off the wall and crazy is because it represents the escapism of an extremely workaholic and asexual culture.

but yes, if people are basing their opinion of the country on what we get in anime and video games, they're wrong. I enjoyed my time in Japan, but going in as a naive 19 year old boy I can honestly say I was probably a little unrealistic in what I first expected. I was a little disappointed to find that there weren't tentacle monsters roaming about, or girls with eyes largely disproportional to their heads. Not that it mattered, I spent most of my time on liberty in Go/mahjong parlors, or spending money on electronics. (I've always been such an old man. >.<)

that said, there are some pretty wacky aspects to japan, they're just very, very limited. Japan's a crowded place, after all, so the popular hubs of the bigger cities, particularly places like Shinjuku or Kabukicho, can look a bit like how anime fans often picture japan.

 

[Arina Love]

But, my god, why is it that there are people out there that obsess over it so much?

You don't really need to understand it, why do you care if people obsesses over something? Or just because you don't really like it (MOE and other "bubble" anime) people that are obsess over it wrong?
Yes i that very person who OBSESSES over moe anime and i collect figures plus mostly (about 70%-30% split) listening to anime-pop, why? BECAUSE I LIKE IT.

You don't have to like it just don't go around board rolling eyes "But, my god, why is it that there are people out there that obsess over it so much? " it's really condescending.

 

[rob_simple]

The internet being the internet, things often seem worse than they are because if you go looking for stuff to prove how weird people get over a specific subject you will find it. (Case in point: I once found an idol website for Philip Schofield, detailing absolutely everything he's ever done, with photos from the beginning of his career right up to present day and, if you know who he is, you'll understand just how fucking insane it is that anyone would care that much about Philip Schofield.)

Holy cow, really?

I didn't even know Phiip Schofield had any fans. I recently saw footage of him 'confronting' the PM with a list of Pedophiles, completely disrespecting the law. What a moron!

I swear to god, it was one of the weirdest things I ever saw on the internet; second only, perhaps, to some badly photoshopped Clare Balding porn. I don't know who that was for.

Although, the same newsletter that sent me to the Schofield shrine, also sent me to this fabulous remix of him talking about heroin and crack, so it wasn't an entirely wasted day:

Spoiler

 

[tlgAlaska]

Konnichi-wa! ^_^ v,,

This is sooo not kawaii! =_=''' Baka!

Now excuse me, I need to spend time with my waifu! *hugs pillow*

 

[Terramax]

You don't really need to understand it, why do you care if people obsesses over something? Or just because you don't really like it (MOE and other "bubble" anime) people that are obsess over it wrong?
Yes i that very person who OBSESSES over moe anime and i collect figures plus mostly (about 70%-30% split) listening to aime-pop, why? BECAUSE I LIKE IT.

You don't have to like it just don't go around board rolling eyes "But, my god, why is it that there are people out there that obsess over it so much? " it's really condescending.

It becomes a problem when these people completely flood youtube and certain forum threads with really cumbersome and stupid posts, that drown away anyone wishing, or having contributed something interesting. Simply put, these people annoy others. They literally force their obsessions in the faces of others.

The reason for writing this thread is because of people from another forum site constantly pestering me with their obsessions with anime and stereotypical Japanese culture.

Because they know I live in Japan, they insist in writing Japanese in Romanji to me, and others, and flood the forums and chatbox with terrible anime-gifs, and links to anime sites, assuming that, because I like a some anime and I live in the country, I'm obviously as crazy about that stuff as they are.

I apologise if the post came off as condescending to you. That really wasn't the intention. But these people really are bothersome. Nothing wrong with you going nuts on such culture, as long as you keep to yourself.

 

[Terramax]

I disagree that using Romaji makes you bad at pronouncing Japanese words. If you heard me (or even some of my friends) reading off a piece of paper with Romaji written on it you would practically not know the difference between me and a real Japanese person talking (albeit I'll be going a lot slower).

No, the main reason Romaji is discouraged is because it completely fails to comprehend the CONTEXT of the words and/or sounds. In written Japanese there are so many homonyms (words that sound the same but have different meanings) that you can have practically 10 different meanings to a word that sounds exactly the same based purely on the context being used or the characters you use to write it in. If people think "two", "too" and "to" (or there/their/they're) was bad then Japanese will blow your mind, homonyms everywhere!

Romaji addresses none of the true expression or context behind sounds or words, it boils down the language into pure syllables and that's why some people feel it "disrespects" Japanese in a certain light. While it's one way to get hang of the pronunciation of the words, for someone who really wants to learn the language Romaji is the worst possible way to start, start off with Hiragana/Katakana and then Kanji! Then you will appreciate the true beauty of Japanese.

And that's the real reason

Agreed with everything else, good post.

Yes, this is very true. You nailed it much better than I did.

 

[snave]

Id say you've exaggerated a little in the opposite direction in places, but largely agree. My favourite response to anyone who mentions Hard Gay is to start speaking entirely in quotes from American pop culture from the early 2000s until they get the point.

The difference between good and bad pronunciation in Japanese is less to do with "Did you learn to read?" and much more to do with "Can you distinguish between stress-time and syllable-time languages?", "Are you willing to pronounce loanwords from your native language as they are said in Japanese, by the Japanese?" and "Did you bother to learn pitch tone distinctions?"

 

[Dimitriov]

I disagree that using Romaji makes you bad at pronouncing Japanese words. If you heard me (or even some of my friends) reading off a piece of paper with Romaji written on it you would practically not know the difference between me and a real Japanese person talking (albeit I'll be going a lot slower).

No, the main reason Romaji is discouraged is because it completely fails to comprehend the CONTEXT of the words and/or sounds. In written Japanese there are so many homonyms (words that sound the same but have different meanings) that you can have practically 10 different meanings to a word that sounds exactly the same based purely on the context being used or the characters you use to write it in. If people think "two", "too" and "to" (or there/their/they're) was bad then Japanese will blow your mind, homonyms everywhere!

Romaji addresses none of the true expression or context behind sounds or words, it boils down the language into pure syllables and that's why some people feel it "disrespects" Japanese in a certain light. While it's one way to get hang of the pronunciation of the words, for someone who really wants to learn the language Romaji is the worst possible way to start, start off with Hiragana/Katakana and then Kanji! Then you will appreciate the true beauty of Japanese.

And that's the real reason

Agreed with everything else, good post.

This is quite interesting. However, based on your English examples, I think you may be confusing homonyms and homophones... although the word is often used without any particular concern for it's strict meaning.

homonym: same spelling AND same pronunciation
homophone: same pronunciation but may be a different spelling

I only point this out because I assume from the context that you mean in Hirigana or Kanji they would use different characters, but spelled out phonetically in Romaji they become homonyms. But I wasn't exactly sure... also I am sleepy.

OT: Read it all. An interesting read from the perspective of someone who's been living there. Though nothing really surprising to me.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Ya haven't really told me anything I didn't already know, OP, but if it helps set even one person straight then you've done your good deed for the day.

As for you,

/snip

Thanks. I'm now stuck on Miku songs and delving into the weird part(s) of youtube again. And if you haven't seen it yet...


Gold.

Oddly enough, the song could be inferred to be in response to Japanese culture as a whole... I hadn't really thought of it from that angle. Hm.

 

[SinisterGehe]

This is one of the reasons why when I had to study Japan, I spoke with - Japanese and read their history and sociological studies. Of course the views were kind shallow due to me only being able to access the 3 students at local Uni that were from Japan and are here studying and the gamer's I knew trough social networks. But luckily their family and friends were able to contribute their views trough skype with the person I knew translating.

I saw very little of that what "we see" here in west. I found the basic sociological environments to be really interesting.

Also I got sent few Subbed Dramas, thrillers and action movies from Japan and all I can say -they can write some intense stuff (I mean intense in a way thriller and drama keeps you on the edge of your seat and thinking, rather than any gross stuff) And at the end of the whole thing, I saw HUGE resemblance between Japanese mentality culture and Finnish mentality.

When I study other cultures, even local Finnish cultures (We have huge variance the south, north, east, west, Karjalain, Inkeri, Sami, Finnoswen, Ålanders) I approach them trough their history to this day.

Because the base of culture, views and social norms is based on the pillars of past upon which new things are added. Like it is hard to see how a local famine or similar problems are handled by locals - without knowing how they are used to them. Like somewhere not eating for day or two can be very normal, or working 20 hours on the field then going to sleep and taking crops to the market by hand - it is normal. When we see it primitive even horrible.

Just try looking your culture for a bit. Let say you are a IT-assistant or phone salesman, how stupid and useless someone who has been working the fields for thousand generations must think those jobs are, or that they are jobs to begin with.

PERSPECTIVE PEOPLE! GET SOME!!! It really broadens your view.

 

[Moth_Monk]

The OP is a mess of bias, some prejudice, misconceptions, general misanthropy and anger as well as some insights. I wish people would be able to filter out all the crap when sharing information. Why the the poster felt they had to launch venomous attacks at people in the OP is confusing. :/

 

[EstrogenicMuscle]

You seem to know a decent amount about Japan. Unfortunately, you seem to know little about the Western world and their perceptions about Japanese culture, or Japanophiles for that matter. You also sound like a total Japanophile yourself. Practically your entire post is such a gushing praise of Japanese culture it would make most Japanophiles you seem to hate blush.

It takes quite a Japanophile such as yourself to rattle off against a bunch of stereotypes about Japan that a lot of the West holds, and then attempt to attribute it to some Japanophile minority other. A lot of this stuff is only stuff a Japanophile would know or notice. You're going to be disappointed that it isn't so much Japanophiles that think many of these things, but the average Joe.

Also, just about anyone who chooses to live in Japan is a Japanophile. It sounds like you've gone out of your way to live in Japan. I know enough about Japan to know that I don't want to live there.

utter trite J-pop like Hatsune Miku, AKB48

"A Japanophile is someone who likes music that I don't!"

And here we get started with an obnoxious trend you'll start doing for the rest of your post. Whining and whining about Jpop you don't like. What an utter trite opinion.

- They think that all the Japanese listen [I have to insert my trite opinions about music taste everywhere] Hatsune Miku, AKB48, and similar sounding pap

Find me even a single person who thinks that. If there are any, they're probably someone who doesn't know much of anything about Japanese culture and have little interest in knowing. And thus not even close to a "Japanophile".

Oh, and Hatsune Miku and AKB48 are both popular in Japan. Not everyone in the United States listens to Gangnam Style, but a lot of people do.

- Assume everyone there performs cosplay, and that people literally walk around the normal streets every day in strange clothing

Oh come on, seriously, find me someone who actually thinks that.

Think there is nothing wrong with maid cafes

"Japanophiles are people who like something I don't."

You've made the decision to LIVE, in Japan. But people who "think there is nothing wrong with maid cafes" are Japanophiles? Oh come on.

They like EVERY anime under the sun

You know, I've met people who like every black metal artist under the sun. I've never met someone who likes every anime under the sun.

think that all the Japanese are perverts. That every man is a Chikan (a type of person that gropes women on trains)

That's NOT Japanophiles. This is a common misconception about Japanese widespread in the West at large. Most people in the West also aren't interested in knowing the difference because it is a fun stereotype to other Japanese people with. Most people who actually disagree with this sort of thing and get emotional about the stereotype are Japanophiles.

You are all mixed up on some of these things. This is sadly what most Westerners think. And this has nothing to do with Japanophiles and everything to do with stereotyping.

- That all all Japanese television is of weird game shows, which are all about perversion, or 'wtf' moments, as are all their adverts

Again, this is not Japanophiles, this is the average Westerner. You clearly don't know enough about Western countries if you think this is a Japanophile thing. The whole "those crazy Japanese" is a Western stereotype thing.

I'm shocked that you know so little about the West that you think this has anything to do with "Japanophilia".

Men/ boys don't perv over women all day long. On the contrary, they're WAY more mature than most Western societies I've experienced (they could teach England a thing or two about maturity and self-respect).

"I'm not a Japanophile, but English people totally ought to learn a lesson from Japan."

They're stupid, narrow-minded, or are only interested in bizarre, Otaku-style culture

The only people who think that are people who hate otaku culture. I think that's what you think about otaku culture, that it's "stupid" and "narrow minded" and "bizarre". It sounds like you hate otaku culture as a way of justification and self-rationalization for your Japanophilia.

Most Japanese people are ridiculously clever. The great majority of them go to University and receive degrees. From an early age, children work seriously hard. Many of them will go to after school clubs, or even go to school on Saturdays and Sundays, to study further. It's very competitive.

I can't reiterate enough that the Japanese are, as a whole, a group of extremely intelligent people. Much more sophisticated than many people in countries like England.

The difference is, they're not arrogant about it in the slightest. They are either way too modest about, or they simply don't realise how clever they are.

Well, you sound more like a Japanophile right now that most anime fans.

I haven't met too many people who gush about Japan as much as you.

Not everyone listens to this shit.

"It's shit because I don't like it, my opinions are super important."

And regardless as to whether you like such pop music (nothing against you if you do), we can all agree that it's not art.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh even harder.

to those absolutely atrocious tunes that often play at the beginning of anime TV shows.

"Everything I don't like is horrible. Everyone must share my horrible taste in music. Stop liking what I don't like."

I listen to primarily underground music, both when from Japan or America or Europe or whatever. But your opinion on stuff like this is so elitist it isn't even funny. Also ironic, you talk down about how all this otaku anime stuff isn't mainstream, but then go ahead and praise the Japanese indie music scene.

So according to you otaku culture is weird bizarre stuff and anime music is the worst subversive nerdy junk. But Japanese hardcore punk is totally awesome. Anime figures, totally the nail that sticks up that deserves to get hammered back down. But seeing Envy in concert, no, that's totally acceptable.

I listen to Hatsune Miku and The Stalin in equal doses. What what now Holmes?
Coaltar of the Deepers is pretty cute, amirite?

But, my god, why is it that there are people out there that obsess over it so much?

Why do people obsess over My Little Pony?
Why do people obsess over Homestuck?
Why do so many people in Japan obsess over anime?
Why do so many people obsess over idols?
Hobbies, how do they work?

I guess it is totally normal to be obsessed with My Little Pony but not anime, huh?
I'd rather be watching anime than be putting up with living in Japan.

I'm not addressing all of your OP in one post. I don't want to make a wall of text that nobody will ever read. But, haha, no. I'm glad that you understand Japanese culture as well as you do. But I wish you understood some other things better.

 

[Nadia Castle]

It's funny how old Japan is often painted as a society of honor, tradition, and nobility. In reality, old Japan was an awful society. They were incredibly xenophobic, intolerant of anything that ever threatened to bring about change, and the ruling class was almost entirely corrupt. These weren't uncommon societal traits anywhere back then, but it's a stark contrast to how we interpret events of that age. Women were often considered little more than the property of their husbands, and it wasn't uncommon for them to be sold into prostitution if their husband had a lot of debt. Even our concept of Bushido is wrong. They valued serving a lord above all else, even if that lord was a colossal asshole (and most were). Many samurai were little more than scumbags with swords. Shades of these traits continue to exist today, festering like a tumor in some parts of the country.

[/quote]

That history part rings true for most historical cultures, but for some reason is emphasized for eastern ones. Despite the Samurai tradition being lionized during the second world war, most Japanese people during the Satsuma Rebellion saw it as the Royalty finally sweeping up the old corrupt system (a huge chunk of the rebels turned against the emperor because he stripped them of the right to behead people they felt had disrespected them). Chinese people yearn for a return to the Imperial Chinese time, which yeah was a time they were powerful culturally and politically, but most emperors were bloodthirsty tyrants not the benevolent overseers.

Not that western people don't have a habit of stupidly romanticizing their own countries history. The idea of plucky Britian holding out against Hitler is kind of dashed when you realize that the British Empire was still the worlds dominant power at the time, and the American Revolution is possibly the second most mythic behind the oriental countries. Eastern ones just idolize it more because their usually highly conservative.

 

[Angie7F]

I actually read the post.

And I have two things to say.

1) I think we are living within 1 hour distance from each other. It would be fun to have a Escapist Tokyo meet up one day. lol

2) I work in a "sub culture" industry in Tokyo. I spend time playing games, watching anime, following AKB and momokuro, and am now learning all i can about Steins gate and vocaloids all as a part of my job.
This makes me totally weird even in Japan.
Yet, some of the weaboos I come across online are more knowledgeable than i am, and I sometimes dont know what to make of that.

 

[wooty]

I must admit that I was sliding towards the "otaku mindset" when I first touched down in Japan, I'd been wanting to go for at least 14 years and once the time came I was like a kid at christmas. I do agree with the OP, I didn't expect for them to be all running around throwing fireballs and dressing up in costumes all the time, but that's the stereotype as mentioned. I guess each country just has a stereotype in peoples mindsets, Japan with its colourful craziness, the English being anal or football hooligans, the french with their onions and stripey jumpers....ect

The only way to dispel the stereotype is to either become more educated on a culture, or go and actually witness it for yourself and become absorbed. Yes there are some wacky things in Japan, but deep down the thing I loved the most was its cleanliness, its friendly people and overall it manners and politeness. Something which is sorely lacking around my own town.

 

[sb666]

Just wondering; what do you do in Japan?

 

[Marcus Kehoe]

Very good wall of text, it's alwyas interesting to hear about people's experiences in other countries. And I really do get why you get annoyed with the over-familiarization japanophiles have with the lifestyle.

I am the presidnt of my college;s anime club, and I honestly hate it when people say we should do stupid japenese shit, when they know nothing of japan. It's an Anime club, not the japenese club, you don't care about the country you just wanna be an otaku( well by your descrption of what a otaku is they are).