You know, I would like to point out that atheists (Which frankly I borderline am) are not perfect human beings above horrible acts. I really wish people would stop acting like everything would be better if everyone was an atheist. We'd find other reasons to be murderers.Aroddo said:
Je Suis Charlie
- Thread starter The Wooster
- Start date
The only answer is polytheism of the Athens school: You may worship your god in our city, but only if your religion does not exclude the worship of other gods.erttheking said:
Of course, but you have to agree that having a mandate from heaven takes a lot of the guilt and responsibility off. If you gun down a few black people because you think they are inferior...its on you. And in time, you might be convinced of your erroneous ways.erttheking said:
If you gun down a few cartoonists because god has decreed it so...its kinda hard to convince you of anything else. How does one argue with god?
I really DO think everything would be better if everyone was atheist. Would it be perfect? Of course not! Would some people still kill other people? Hell yeah! But the justifications to do so would be just that much harder to come by, and if thats not a plus, I dont know what is.
In the end religion is about separation. Us and them. We who believe, those who are unbelievers. We who are gods chosen, everyone else. We who will go to heaven, those who will burn in hell. Separation creates a gulf between people. Especially when the separation is about who is worthy and who is not. If you erase the gulf, we are that much closer to each other as human beings and it is that much harder to do horrible things to each other.
Being self-congratulatory about NOT being self-aggrandizing... that sounds like Critical Miss.
On one hand, I'm not sure what to say about all this. It seems strange how it gets so much attention and media coverage when the attack in Assam that killed over 70 in India barely scratched the news cycle, if at all. That one did not involve Muslims on either side, so it seems the media can't be bothered.
On the other hand, it does seem like a problem that is not going to make things easier for Muslims, regardless of how they feel about this or that. There has to be some tipping point where this supposed loud majority of Muslims who are totally not okay with violence do more than just release written press statements about how they condemn violence. The fact is these people aren't just nutter butters nutting it out in the basements. There are mosques in the United States and Europe that fire up their followers about how bad western culture and how blasphemy is all around them, and then quietly squeak out a press release when something like this happens.
The fact is that there are many moderate Muslim countries, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, even many in the middle east. Sometimes in negotiations the two sides are just too far apart from the beginning, that both sides would have to give up too much to meet in the middle. There is already a lot of anti-muslim sentiment in Europe and the US, and unfortunately that might cause more violence. I fear there must be some kind of reckoning, however, and if Muslims (moderate or no) want to get ahead of it, they have to stop demonizing the people around them and openly renounce certain IDEAS, not just the people who act on those ideas after the fact.
On one hand, I'm not sure what to say about all this. It seems strange how it gets so much attention and media coverage when the attack in Assam that killed over 70 in India barely scratched the news cycle, if at all. That one did not involve Muslims on either side, so it seems the media can't be bothered.
On the other hand, it does seem like a problem that is not going to make things easier for Muslims, regardless of how they feel about this or that. There has to be some tipping point where this supposed loud majority of Muslims who are totally not okay with violence do more than just release written press statements about how they condemn violence. The fact is these people aren't just nutter butters nutting it out in the basements. There are mosques in the United States and Europe that fire up their followers about how bad western culture and how blasphemy is all around them, and then quietly squeak out a press release when something like this happens.
The fact is that there are many moderate Muslim countries, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Malaysia, even many in the middle east. Sometimes in negotiations the two sides are just too far apart from the beginning, that both sides would have to give up too much to meet in the middle. There is already a lot of anti-muslim sentiment in Europe and the US, and unfortunately that might cause more violence. I fear there must be some kind of reckoning, however, and if Muslims (moderate or no) want to get ahead of it, they have to stop demonizing the people around them and openly renounce certain IDEAS, not just the people who act on those ideas after the fact.
I came here to post about how this issue isn't as simple as it sounds, only to find out it's more complex than I thought.
But, for anyone still looking for a manned soapbox, I want to consider the part religion plays in this.
People need something to hold onto. If you have no friends, no family, and no beliefs, you've probably got a fond spot in your heart for tall buildings. Religion is a place simple people can go to to feel like they're part of something bigger, to feel like their lives are a little less meaningless. You might not learn anything, you may never get rid of those nagging questions that eat away at your soul, but at least you can stand in a line and repeat the same words everyone else is saying. And I can tell you it feels really good to do so. It's an intoxicating experience to feel like a part of something, to feel so connected to complete strangers.
The only problem comes from the people you're not connected to. As a sort of loner, I can appreciate just about anyone as a human being that I probably have some things in common with, but to a religious person, anyone who doesn't hold the faith is a threat. These days, churches are thinning out like libraries, and their aging tenants can feel everything they've put their lives into slipping away. I don't believe in a God so much as an effect manifested through a multitude of believers that begins to feel divine, and thus I believe that anyone's God only lives for as long as people believe in it. So imagine that your source of love, hope, and purpose in life is slowly dying, and on top of that the same people who are killing it are laughing at you. Add to that the fact that you're not smart enough or brave enough to laugh back.
I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't laugh at the religious. What they need more than anything is our pity. These are delicate people; the phrase 'childlike faith' comes to mind. And just as we don't support bullies who drive kids to suicide or gun violence, I don't know if we should support the people making fun of the ignorant and lonely religious.
But, for anyone still looking for a manned soapbox, I want to consider the part religion plays in this.
People need something to hold onto. If you have no friends, no family, and no beliefs, you've probably got a fond spot in your heart for tall buildings. Religion is a place simple people can go to to feel like they're part of something bigger, to feel like their lives are a little less meaningless. You might not learn anything, you may never get rid of those nagging questions that eat away at your soul, but at least you can stand in a line and repeat the same words everyone else is saying. And I can tell you it feels really good to do so. It's an intoxicating experience to feel like a part of something, to feel so connected to complete strangers.
The only problem comes from the people you're not connected to. As a sort of loner, I can appreciate just about anyone as a human being that I probably have some things in common with, but to a religious person, anyone who doesn't hold the faith is a threat. These days, churches are thinning out like libraries, and their aging tenants can feel everything they've put their lives into slipping away. I don't believe in a God so much as an effect manifested through a multitude of believers that begins to feel divine, and thus I believe that anyone's God only lives for as long as people believe in it. So imagine that your source of love, hope, and purpose in life is slowly dying, and on top of that the same people who are killing it are laughing at you. Add to that the fact that you're not smart enough or brave enough to laugh back.
I guess what I'm saying is that we shouldn't laugh at the religious. What they need more than anything is our pity. These are delicate people; the phrase 'childlike faith' comes to mind. And just as we don't support bullies who drive kids to suicide or gun violence, I don't know if we should support the people making fun of the ignorant and lonely religious.
That is absolutely not what I have read here in this thread, which has been discussing this event and the nuance of freedom of the press with aplomb and courtesy.Alien1375 said:
I reject your name-calling. Please cease that kind of behavior at The Escapist - it is this vitriol that contributes to the volatility of the situation.
Just that last bit...Verlander said:
Really, you forgot Madrid already?
I mean it's 'technically' outside your ten year limit but nearly 200 folk in a single incident and nearly 2000 injured.
The numbers are only 'low' because they keep (thankfully) fucking up their car, plane and suicide bomb attempts.
These are your beliefs and I welcome you to them. I support them with every fiber of my being. They aren't mine, so I can't agree. I've seen first hand what a good religious person can do, or even a good religious community. And I've seen what bad a religious zealot could do. A religious cabal. I've seen equal with great measure. I didn't covet the good, so I ignored the bad. I didn't want the bad to justify my beliefs, leading me to ignore the good. I saw individuals using whatever they wanted to justify their actions. So I'm always going to side on the individual compared to any label, ideal, belief, or what have you.tzimize said:
But, we handled it like Gentlemen, and I think we both can agree that if a lot more of what just occured between us happened around the world, we'd be better off. Not just the discussion, but the acceptance of the still continuing disagreement.
Also, you love V:tM. I can never stay mad at you!
Shinji, we play video games. You should understand the dangers of the embolden sentence more than anyone. When Fox News hears of a school shooting, they get out the lotion and Kleenex just begging for the shooter to have played games sometime in his or her life.Casual Shinji said:
I mean, Adam Lenza had deep psychological troubles that are well documented. But what did Fox News do? Looked for the usual Common Denominator [http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/09/12/training-simulation-mass-killers-often-share-obsession-with-violent-video-games/]. Glenn Beck pointed the finger directly at World of Warcraft for Elliot Rodger's [http://www.glennbeck.com/2014/05/27/lets-play-the-agenda-game-glenn-points-out-progressive-parallels-in-shooters-manifesto/] disconnect from Society to subsequent hate-filled and misogynistic final actions.
In other people's mind, case closed. You kill people in Halo, you want to kill people in real life. Fox News has made multimillionaires out of people who put these ideas out there... not because it's just fun to say... but people honestly believe that. To them, the ideology is clear as well. If you didn't have these urges to murder, you wouldn't play these murdering games. Or Murder Simulators as they call them now.
Yet you, me, and literally Billions of other gamers doesn't really feel like hurting a fly. Just like Billions of Theists just believe in something different. And there are a subsect of Theists who have violent tendencies. And like all aberrations in the societal make up, they seek others like them so they don't feel alone any more. This is one of the only blights that the internet created, as it's so easy for them to do that now. But it makes them feel empowered when their once single voice is echoed.
Much like the KKK and white power movements. Meanwhile, even though plenty of these groups exist in efforts of eradicating the other races of this world (824 [http://www.businessinsider.com/active-hate-groups-by-state-2014-2] in the US alone in 2013)... The white race isn't morally bankrupted as a societal construct. The white race is just a shared phenotypical set and traditions stemming from regions around the globe. Nothing about them are more or less prone to making hate groups as compared to other races, so I won't take their phenotype, genotype, or past traditions to stand as a marker for anything. But yet, White Power Movements liter the internet.
So instead of believing some bull that whites are just prone to doing that, I choose to realize the reality; Individuals are capricious and they'll do what they want, but still are social creatures known as humans which will make them look for likeminded people. I'm sure I could find Black Power (like, overtly racist kind... not just the super cool afro wearing kind), Asian Power, Latin Power sites if I looked. Easily. Hell, there was 114 Black Septratists in the last link I posted. We are all capable of bad. We are all capable of good. A loving home can produce a monster, A shitty home can produce a Paragon of Justice.
But just closing our eyes and saying "There. that's it" while ignoring the other parts that are actually different than what we want to believe? That's damaging.
While dehumanizing the perpetrators here does us the disservice of denying the opportunity of understanding how this came about and perhaps protecting ourselves from further such behavior, the comparison you draw is not quite reasonable. Deciding to kill someone because of a cartoon they wrote is qualitatively different referring to murderers as being barren of mind.Gethsemani said:
They will make it, funds are being unlocked to help them, and other newspapers are ready to give a hand. Probably Libé again, as they did back in 2011.Dr_Fred said:
Publication is not stopped, next number will be in store wednesday, made by the ones who survived and can still stand.
PS : heureux de voir que je ne suis pas le seul bouffeur de grenouille dans le coin
"This is the act of idiot extremists, and certainly not of all Muslims who live in France. It's a minority which is absolutely not represtative, which went and carried out this act of violence." -Stephane Charbonnier, editor of Charlie Hebdo and one of the victims of the shooting, speaking to an interviewer in the charred remains of the paper's offices after a 2011 firebombing.
My stance against those who would dictate for all what can and cannot be said, barring an utterly and uncontroversially clear harm in doing so, is firm. But it is a poor celebration of those who have died to attack their murderers with an extremism at least one of them clearly did not condone.
My stance against those who would dictate for all what can and cannot be said, barring an utterly and uncontroversially clear harm in doing so, is firm. But it is a poor celebration of those who have died to attack their murderers with an extremism at least one of them clearly did not condone.
I wasn't talking about understanding those fanatics, I meant that I understood why some may be annoyed about a news outlet criticizing someones entire way of life. Let me be clear though, I am not saying I believe they should be censored, if you are free to criticize them for their lifestyle they are free to do the same.Deathfish15 said:
I'm just saying I understand why some people may be upset.
I don't know enough about the Muslim belief system to really comment but the culture as a whole does make me feel uneasy. Where as most other main stream religions have evolved with the times a lot of their factions seem adamant that they'd rather die then ever adapt. The whole thing seems kind of backward but as I said I don't know enough about it.
As for the race vs religion thing, that's a completely different debate. As far as I know, much like Jewish people, Muslims are fairly picky about who they marry and at this point selective breeding means they may be more a race then most countries.
Again, I don't really know enough about it, what I do know is there is no place in society for people willing to kill over a joke. I just hope they don't hurt anyone else.
Jesus, attack Sony for making a movie, attack a newspaper for making a cartoon... we live in crazy times. And yet... I feel proud that popular media are able to scare terrorists and dictatorships more than governments. That they force theses groups to respond in the only way they know how, and that these attempts to silence free expression are more or less ineffectual.
This does worry me, though. I've heard very negative things about France and its xenophobia towards Muslims. I hope that this doesn't lead to greater islamiphobia there.
This does worry me, though. I've heard very negative things about France and its xenophobia towards Muslims. I hope that this doesn't lead to greater islamiphobia there.
I'm going to qoute Richard Jomshof from the Sweden Democrats on this one:
"Take for example Egypt, where close to 50% of the population in the election 2014 chose to vote on the islamistic Muslim Brotherhood. 25% chose to vote on the islamistic Salafists. All in all, a crushing majority of the electorate chose to support anti-democratic islamists. Do not come to me and say, that these issues concern only a small minority."
That's pretty much my stance on the matter. Of course not ALL muslims are islamists, even to claim such a thing would be absurd. However, there is no doubt that there are MANY muslims that are islamist, or harbor some form of sympathy for islamist. And considering how many muslims there are worldwide(over 1 billion, IIRC), it only takes maybe 10% for them to be a serious threat to the western world. And if Egypt and this study ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/30/us-islam-views-survey-idUSBRE93T0TK20130430 ) are anything to go by, it's probably far more than 10%.
I'm not saying we should ban all mosquees and be immediately suspicious of all muslims. I'm just saying this problem goes far, far deeper than many people(even in this thread) care to admit. A disappearingly small minority of muslims will commit acts of terrorism. A significantly larger minority however, will cheer them on when they do, and help reinforce when they get in trouble.
Je Suis Charlie
"Take for example Egypt, where close to 50% of the population in the election 2014 chose to vote on the islamistic Muslim Brotherhood. 25% chose to vote on the islamistic Salafists. All in all, a crushing majority of the electorate chose to support anti-democratic islamists. Do not come to me and say, that these issues concern only a small minority."
That's pretty much my stance on the matter. Of course not ALL muslims are islamists, even to claim such a thing would be absurd. However, there is no doubt that there are MANY muslims that are islamist, or harbor some form of sympathy for islamist. And considering how many muslims there are worldwide(over 1 billion, IIRC), it only takes maybe 10% for them to be a serious threat to the western world. And if Egypt and this study ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/30/us-islam-views-survey-idUSBRE93T0TK20130430 ) are anything to go by, it's probably far more than 10%.
I'm not saying we should ban all mosquees and be immediately suspicious of all muslims. I'm just saying this problem goes far, far deeper than many people(even in this thread) care to admit. A disappearingly small minority of muslims will commit acts of terrorism. A significantly larger minority however, will cheer them on when they do, and help reinforce when they get in trouble.
Je Suis Charlie
I feel like this is somewhat disenginuous. You say that 1 billion Muslims exist in the world, but then you start quoting statistics from Egypt, and several of the most radical Muslim nations. The truth is, though, that the vast majority of Muslims don't live in the Middle East, and probably don't associate with radical Islam. It's also unfair to suggest that Islam itself is automatically radical in nature. Radical Islam in the Middle East has more to do with political and cultural strife resulting from imperialism and warfare. Things could have turned out very differently, and while I have no sympathy for terrorists, the history between the west and Islam is very complicated, and both the United States and parts of Europe are partly responsible for the situation there. It is perhaps time for people to stop pointing fingers at one another.awesomeClaw said:
You could also be convinced NOT to murder someone because it's against your religion. Religion can promote both violence and peace, and a lot more that I've heard of promote peace. Of course peace doesn't make the news very often.tzimize said:
Believe it or not religion used to be the de-facto basis for morality for most people, and what better deterrent could there be for immoral behavior than an all powerful deity who sees you at all times and will punish or reward you eternally based on your actions.
People will always be separated by things, be they beliefs, ideologies, cultures, values. Rather than try and strip away the things that might make us separate, I would rather us all just accept our differences.
And to broadly categorize all religions, even all Muslim religions, as being intolerant towards others, is just simple minded and lazy.
According to the study, the statistics in South-east Asia are in many respects not much better. They are slightly more encouraging, of course, but they are still very disconcerting.Fox12 said:
Of course a vast majority don't associate with Radical Islamism. There we are in agreement, completely. However, that "slight minority" of maybe 10-20%, suddenly appears very much larger when you put it in absolute numbers.
Regarding the history of colonialism and western intervention in the Middle East: It is true that white europeans are to blame for many of the conflicts that exist in muslim nations today. And it is equally true that there are a number of muslim nations that have had very successful conversions into democracy, take Tunisia for example.
But the WHY is not relevant. What's relevant is how this affects us, and what steps we should take in order to secure ourselves, and by extension the liberal forces in Muslim Nations, from the snake-in-the-grass that is radical islamism. Why it looks like that can help us in that respect - but we can't undo the past, we can only work to change the future.
I must react when I see people asking why this is such a big deal. I live in Paris, I am french, I never liked Charlie Hebdo, and I am deeply horrified. This is not about the number of people who died, this is not about their religion, not about their origins (one of the cops who got killed is named "Ahmed" btw). This is like 9/11 to us here, not because of the number, not because of the horrifyingly spectacular attack. It is about the symbol, it is about being attacked right at the center of Paris, about seeing the guys executing coldly a policeman who surrendered, about the direct and brutal agression against our most fundamental principles.
This is no time to "warn us" that the guys at Charlie Hebdo were no heroes, no time to say that we should care about everyone who dies because of these fanatics, we are mourning and we are outraged. This should not be so hard to understand. People at Charlie Hebdo are heroes to us now, they can't be anything else, it's not about who they really were but about what the represents to us.
You might also want to have a read at this, it sums up pretty well my opinion : http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/blame-for-charlie-hebdo-murders
About muslims in France... it is not as bad as what I read here. Sadly there was some isolated actions (no one was hurt luckily) and that's disgusting. Most french people are perfectly aware that muslim are not fanatics, we have a lot of them in Paris and around Paris and we live together fairly well. My district is full of muslims and jews and no one is shooting anyone. People are angry at brutality and ignorance, we do not ask for blood. Even our "dear" Front National stressed the fact that no one was blaming muslims. Well, not "no one", you always have stupid people around. But most french people just want the criminals brought to justice.
To be fair, I am almost offended that I have to explain this. But we live in a society where you are allowed to offend me. The people at Charlie Hebdo died because fanatics think that this society should not exist. And that's why this is a big deal.
PS. Il y a quelques français adeptes d'Escapist oui
This is no time to "warn us" that the guys at Charlie Hebdo were no heroes, no time to say that we should care about everyone who dies because of these fanatics, we are mourning and we are outraged. This should not be so hard to understand. People at Charlie Hebdo are heroes to us now, they can't be anything else, it's not about who they really were but about what the represents to us.
You might also want to have a read at this, it sums up pretty well my opinion : http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/blame-for-charlie-hebdo-murders
About muslims in France... it is not as bad as what I read here. Sadly there was some isolated actions (no one was hurt luckily) and that's disgusting. Most french people are perfectly aware that muslim are not fanatics, we have a lot of them in Paris and around Paris and we live together fairly well. My district is full of muslims and jews and no one is shooting anyone. People are angry at brutality and ignorance, we do not ask for blood. Even our "dear" Front National stressed the fact that no one was blaming muslims. Well, not "no one", you always have stupid people around. But most french people just want the criminals brought to justice.
To be fair, I am almost offended that I have to explain this. But we live in a society where you are allowed to offend me. The people at Charlie Hebdo died because fanatics think that this society should not exist. And that's why this is a big deal.
PS. Il y a quelques français adeptes d'Escapist oui