Jedi vs others in new Star Wars MMO

[HyenaThePirate]

I think one thing that should be considered here also is that this isnt an Arena style FPS.
To my understanding it'll be run similarly to just about every staple MMO out there, which means hotkeys and macros, clicking on actions.

So when you start tossing about theories like "they can trap the jedi then use mines and shoot them in the back and snipe them from afar", you're assuming you'll be in any position to a.) engage someone at distance for any reason before going to battle excluding typical PVP ganking and b.) that you'll be controlling the combat directly.

Thats where I have my problem... if it comes down to skill trees, unless they severely limit the abilities of the Jedi out the gate, I don't see Jedi at any level being a pushover if they are the same level as your bounty hunter. It would be like in WoW for a mage to fight a Rogue or a Paladin. If you dont catch them off guard and blow your cool downs right off, chances are you're going to end up toast.

In other words, if that Jedi sees you before you see him, and a combat situation arises, I'd wager that the Jedi is going to face-roll his way to victory 90% of the time, which does make me want to play a different class, because I welcome the challenge of having a class that takes actual skill to play and make formidable.

EDIT; Making end game Jedi/SIth virtually unbeatable by all other classes would absolutely wreck the game... who wants to work all that way through an MMO grinding, etc just to get to the end game content and find yourself woefully inadequate in anything beyond specifically designed PVE instances that require your special talents as a Jedi Lackey?

 

[Piping Rock]

I'm going to throw something in here based on my playing of Kotor and thats that it is very loosely based on the D&D 3.5 ed ruleset. Having also played a lot of NWN and DDO I would expect that Jedi will be treated pretty much the same as casters in those games. This will mean that the "normal" classes like smuggler and bounty hunter will be better at low lvls (being more like the fighter or rogue/ranger classes in those games) whilst the Jedi will be weak at low lvl but become very powerful later on (like casters/clerics).

The normal rule of thumb with the 3.5 rulset is that the amount of effort put into lvling your class has an almost direct counter with how powerful they are end game. In DDO for example the sorc is probably the hardest character to play till you get to lvl 10+ where upon he starts to become one of the most powerful characters in game. By lvl 14 even a badly rolled sorc is very hard to kill. The fighter on the other hand is almost unkillable till you get to lvl 6+ where upon he starts to struggle. By lvl 10 the average fighter needs at least a little help with most mobs at his lvl.

The major factor of all the games mentioned so far though is that each class has big advantages over the others in certain areas. At high lvl the jedi (caster) will most likely be the ultimate dps character, the trooper (fighter)will more than likely be needed to tank and hold agro whilst the smuggler (rogue) will almost certainly be needed for ranged dps and possibly skills.

Force Users at high lvls equal gods, nothing can touch them.
/thread

 

[Pots]

I think one thing that should be considered here also is that this isnt an Arena style FPS.
To my understanding it'll be run similarly to just about every staple MMO out there, which means hotkeys and macros, clicking on actions.

So when you start tossing about theories like "they can trap the jedi then use mines and shoot them in the back and snipe them from afar", you're assuming you'll be in any position to a.) engage someone at distance for any reason before going to battle excluding typical PVP ganking and b.) that you'll be controlling the combat directly.

Thats where I have my problem... if it comes down to skill trees, unless they severely limit the abilities of the Jedi out the gate, I don't see Jedi at any level being a pushover if they are the same level as your bounty hunter. It would be like in WoW for a mage to fight a Rogue or a Paladin. If you dont catch them off guard and blow your cool downs right off, chances are you're going to end up toast.

In other words, if that Jedi sees you before you see him, and a combat situation arises, I'd wager that the Jedi is going to face-roll his way to victory 90% of the time, which does make me want to play a different class, because I welcome the challenge of having a class that takes actual skill to play and make formidable.

EDIT; Making end game Jedi/SIth virtually unbeatable by all other classes would absolutely wreck the game... who wants to work all that way through an MMO grinding, etc just to get to the end game content and find yourself woefully inadequate in anything beyond specifically designed PVE instances that require your special talents as a Jedi Lackey?

Everything you say makes perfect sense. As for the mage referenced you have to remember that Jedi\Sith not only have ranged abilities but also melee buffs and skills. Of course maybe you were just saying that a mage in WoW is unbeatable when not caught off guard? Forgive me, I'm not very k knowledgeable on WoW.

 

[Pots]

Force Users at high lvls equal gods, nothing can touch them.
/thread

I think there is a little more to it than that.

 

[HyenaThePirate]

I think one thing that should be considered here also is that this isnt an Arena style FPS.
To my understanding it'll be run similarly to just about every staple MMO out there, which means hotkeys and macros, clicking on actions.

So when you start tossing about theories like "they can trap the jedi then use mines and shoot them in the back and snipe them from afar", you're assuming you'll be in any position to a.) engage someone at distance for any reason before going to battle excluding typical PVP ganking and b.) that you'll be controlling the combat directly.

Thats where I have my problem... if it comes down to skill trees, unless they severely limit the abilities of the Jedi out the gate, I don't see Jedi at any level being a pushover if they are the same level as your bounty hunter. It would be like in WoW for a mage to fight a Rogue or a Paladin. If you dont catch them off guard and blow your cool downs right off, chances are you're going to end up toast.

In other words, if that Jedi sees you before you see him, and a combat situation arises, I'd wager that the Jedi is going to face-roll his way to victory 90% of the time, which does make me want to play a different class, because I welcome the challenge of having a class that takes actual skill to play and make formidable.

EDIT; Making end game Jedi/SIth virtually unbeatable by all other classes would absolutely wreck the game... who wants to work all that way through an MMO grinding, etc just to get to the end game content and find yourself woefully inadequate in anything beyond specifically designed PVE instances that require your special talents as a Jedi Lackey?

Everything you say makes perfect sense. As for the mage referenced you have to remember that Jedi\Sith not only have ranged abilities but also melee buffs and skills. Of course maybe you were just saying that a mage in WoW is unbeatable when not caught off guard? Forgive me, I'm not very k knowledgeable on WoW.

Something like that, yes.
In WoW, if a Mage sees you coming and you don't get the drop on him, he's going to own your ass all day long. Even IF you get the drop on him, they have such a bag of tricks that you'll still have a pretty tough fight on your hands. The best option is to sap em or somehow nail them with all you got right out the gate before they can even start using their defensive and then offensive capabilities.

And even then, if the mage player is even halfway decent, it's still a crapshoot about who will win the encounter. But if I was a betting man, I'd say the mage.

 

[Rhob Anybody]

Force Users at high lvls equal gods, nothing can touch them.
/thread

Strangely enough thats what people said about Sorcs in DDO. However the end result at lvl cap is that almost any class can win in pvp due to items and/or imunities. I dont see this being any different with Jedi in SWTOR.

Now to the wow concerns involving mages raised by Hyena. Having played wow for a fairly extended period I would argue the fact that casters are uber powerful. In the time I played I generally found them the easiest classes to beat in pvp with my warrior (def spec), hunter (mm spec) and Priest (holy spec). The major influence on the outcome of any battle is knowing how to play your class. If played well any class can beat almost any other despite preconcieved oppinions to the contrary.

The bigger point though that will probably have more bearing on the actual gameplay and balance issues is the one you raised concerning combat. If they follow the herd and turn this into another wow clone I can see this game needing a lot of balancing. If however they go for the more twitched based combat like DDO has player skill will even out a lot of rough edges. In short where DDO is concerned there is no "best class" only "best players". Every class has its weaknesses and strengths and I see no reason wht SWTOR would be any different.

 

[Helnurath]

Easiest way to kill Jedi, Crash a transport filled with Sith into the Jedi Temple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOvbv-LkK6w

 

[G1eet]

Really i always felt that the biggest failing of the prequel movies was the WAY in which the Jedi were betrayed. It just completely ruined how I understood Palpatine's rise to power especially with scenes of powerful jedi masters turning around to face their clone troopers with a confused look on their faces before being blown away. I just found it hard to believe that these troops who had followed and even befriended some jedi leaders would just casually turn on them due to a single order, that NO jedi ever knew about. This was never leaked even by Clone troopers like Cody who was deep friends with Obi Wan and Anakin.
And I seriously doubt a handful of clone troopers could defeat Kit Fisto.

I just chalk it up to weak story telling and honestly I think it's Lucas' biggest mistake... In Star Wars original trilogy, we were enamored by the Jedi, seeing them as this awesome force and power to behold in the galaxy and only assumed they were hunted down and wiped out by a stronger, more evil Jedi Darth Vader.

Then the prequels come along and crap all over that... first it depicts Jedi as being super awesome, and then wipes them away in some cheap fashion. Anakin turns to the darkside like he's making a decision as casual as which tie to wear with his cloak. It was all very cheap and weak, and I have always felt Lucas did his star wars universe a severe injustice with that aspect of the Prequels.

He sold out, and in so doing, he sold Star Wars' soul as a movie saga.
He must have been high on the crack he bought with the money from all of us fans that went to see the Phantom Menace, we the unsuspecting hopefuls.

I'm glad someone else pointed out this huge blunder, so I didn't have to. Kudos to you, Hyena.

 

[Pots]

Easiest way to kill Jedi, Crash a transport filled with Sith into the Jedi Temple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOvbv-LkK6w

I know it means nothing but in that video the Sith wipes the floor with the normal soldiers in a split second. Also the bounty hunter is only shown shooting the normal soldiers. Everything else is Jedi vs Sith.

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

Read the comic. If vader had not be distracted Bobba would have died.

I have read the comic. And distractions are part of combat. And if you remember correctly Fett could have killed Vader but choose to leave instead. I used that picture on the outside shot that "potts" had not read it.

 

[Nurb]

Bottom line: Even the average Jedi could defeat any single non-force using opponent or small groups of well trained opponents. The boba/jango fett and the like were the extremely rare exceptions to the rule.

They sacrificed the myticly powerful jedi for balance, so that means, some 'soldier' the same level as your jedi character will have an equal chance of defeating you as you do of defeating them. However you want to argue jedi abilities, the game makes jedi just another class equal to any other, and it's rather disappointing because that aspect of star wars was ruined in favor of the marketing decision to "OMG U KAN BEE A JEEDE".

IMO, SOE had a great thing going with people clamoring to be one of the limited number of jedi on each server (before their own marketing decision to make people jedi by mastering crafts sent pissed plays fleeing the game)

The E3 Klljoy article said it pretty well.

Yes, everyone wants to be a Jedi. Because Jedi are special. Except, in an MMO, you can simply choose to be a Jedi. Which means being a Jedi is about as exotic as being right-handed.

Anyone making an MMO of Star Wars has to make the choice between making the game follow the Star Wars rules or making it balanced, because a Jedi is deliberately not balanced when compared to anything that doesn't have force powers, a lightsaber, super reflexes, the ability to see the future, the power to shoot lightning from their fingers, and the voice of James Earl Jones. You'll either play in a world where the Jedi class is so powerful that nobody wants to play anything else, or one where a Jedi is a sad mockery of the characters we see in the movies. In either case, it will be a world where half the people you meet have force powers, most of them are more powerful than you, and they all talk like retards.

Sure, the idea of playing a noble and mysterious Jedi might be appealing, but ten minutes after logging in you'll find your self in the Goldshire, but with lightsabers. You're not going to be hanging out with Mace Windu, Yoda, and Luke Skywalker. You're going to be in some sewer under Coruscant, killing gonga-rats for 10XP each with fellow party members "Ninjaguydan", "Abcdef", and "Manparts".

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/experienced-points/6158-E3-Killjoy

and yes, lucas raped star wars, the force, jedi, and anything fans loved
"IN THE PREQUELS, WE'LL MAKE THE JEDI NOTHING BUT SPEC OPS WITH GLOW STICKS! MWA HA HA!"

 

[Pots]

Read the comic. If vader had not be distracted Bobba would have died.

I have read the comic. And distractions are part of combat. And if you remember correctly Fett could have killed Vader but choose to leave instead. I used that picture on the outside shot that "potts" had not read it.

I must have overlooked that link. I just checked it out and the cover art looks pretty cool I'll have to give it a read. When is that supposed to go on though? Time line wise, I mean Vader hires Bobba in the movie after all.

Edit: Oh, I see that its based before "A New Hope" but is it explained why Vader doesn't care about hiring Bobba in the movies later on?

 

[Shepard's Shadow]

Read the comic. If vader had not be distracted Bobba would have died.

I have read the comic. And distractions are part of combat. And if you remember correctly Fett could have killed Vader but choose to leave instead. I used that picture on the outside shot that "potts" had not read it.

I must have overlooked that link. I just checked it out and the cover art looks pretty cool I'll have to give it a read. When is that supposed to go on though? Time line wise, I mean Vader hires Bobba in the movie after all.

Edit: Oh, I see that its based before "A New Hope" but is it explained why Vader doesn't care about hiring Bobba in the movies later on?

Yep. In a battle shortly after that on Dargulli, Vader is surrounded by Bounty Hunters and Boba helps him by firing at the other Bounty Hunters.

 

[Pots]

Read the comic. If vader had not be distracted Bobba would have died.

I have read the comic. And distractions are part of combat. And if you remember correctly Fett could have killed Vader but choose to leave instead. I used that picture on the outside shot that "potts" had not read it.

I must have overlooked that link. I just checked it out and the cover art looks pretty cool I'll have to give it a read. When is that supposed to go on though? Time line wise, I mean Vader hires Bobba in the movie after all.

Edit: Oh, I see that its based before "A New Hope" but is it explained why Vader doesn't care about hiring Bobba in the movies later on?

Yep. In a battle shortly after that on Dargulli, Vader is surrounded by Bounty Hunters and Boba helps him by firing at the other Bounty Hunters.

Thats funny, I wouldn't have thought Vader forgave so easily. I'm DLing the comics right now so maybe I can get a better idea of how they can make a non-force sensitive stand up to a force user.