Jimquisition: A Different Kind of Difficulty

[Electrogecko]

the real question is..
what kind of hardcore gamer buys 'Kirby's epic yarn'?

I resent that.....big time.

A "hardcore" gamer can't enjoy Kirby's Epic Yarn because....because what? Because it's too colorful? Because it has "Yarn" in the title?

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

I like how he makes points not every single person agrees with. One of the reasons he is a very welcome addition to this site.

 

[prouler]

I get your point, but I completely disagree with it. you can make your own difficulty out of any game. sure, megaman may be a stroll down easy street on your third playthough because you already know the proper routs and tactics, but hey, if you want real difficulty, go through the entire game without using any powers, and only a real man plays and never grabs a health pickup. that kirby epic yarn makes an arbitrary grading system for every level is fine and all, but that does change the completely motivationless droll that is your first playthrough, because you can blindly walk into enemies, and still be congratulated with victory. bonus challenge is great for making a tough game have greater lastability, but saying that a platinum rank in kirby: epic yarn is half the difficult of the equivalent in megaman, or ninja giaden, or contra is laughable. Same criteria all around, hit once, restart level. those hard games just became allot more daunting eh?

 

[GeorgW]

Yup, I agree with you, having lives are just annoying these days. In fact, I remember a great discussion of the meaningless of death at all in this generation of video games. Oh, and games have had optional difficulties for decades, ever heard of collectibles?
Also, Yahtzee did a better analysis of kirby's epic yarn, or 'Colorful Apartment Management Simulator 2011'.

 

[Adric Cluff]

Yoshi's Story was the Rosetta stone for games like Epic Yarn...eat 30 fruit to clear a level...piece o cake...eat all 30 Watermelons...OMG shooot me in the face this is impossible.

 

[suitepee7]

Difficulty and Death are a needed thing in games imo. It builds tension in the easiest fashion, it tests that you took what you learned playing through the game and if you didn't learn something you get punished for it. Losing gems that you can get back ain't shit compared of being punished by death. These days you have quicksave and check points that basically make it moot unless you really come unprepared. Then you're forced to either find an earlier save point or just start the game over.

Sonic been doing what Kirby's Epic Yard does for years. You want to collect as many rings as possible because they grant you extra lives, access to the special stage to get chaos emeralds and they keep Sonic alive from everything but pitfalls, drowning and being crushed.

In Demon's Souls you collects the souls of everything you kill so you don't want to die because you risk losing all the souls you collected with only a chance to collect them again after you start a new game plus. In fallout games you have a basically a carved path to take to gain access to beat the game and its normally easier then exploring the world to get weapons, armor or just to discover more about the world you're in.

i don't mean to sound like a dick here, because i partially agree, but death need not be the be-all end-all of difficulty. for example, in audiosurf ninja mono, if you want any chance of being anywhere near the top scores, you have to play without hitting a single grey block. so if you do hit one, just one, even at the end of the song/level, you have failed. you can complete the rest of the song, but in your eyes, and the purpose of the game, you have failed.

i think this was the whole point of this, it is optional difficulty. the idea is that as games have developed, we should have developed as gamers. games are no longer simply a case of play game. beat game. win. the added skill is to be able to beat the game well, in style.

i would equate it to the purpose of side missions. you CAN just beat the story mode, but that's not completing the whole game. if you were to complete all the story mode AND side missions, that is more like it. so think of the collectibles in kirbys epic yarn as the side mission. anybody can beat the game, that is obvious. however to truly complete the game is something entirely different, and as gamers we should be looking for opportunities to do more to complete the game, not just cut out half the challenge and then say it is too easy.

edit: just saw this post

bonus challenge is great for making a tough game have greater lastability, but saying that a platinum rank in kirby: epic yarn is half the difficult of the equivalent in megaman, or ninja giaden, or contra is laughable. Same criteria all around, hit once, restart level. those hard games just became allot more daunting eh?

you have to restart the level if you get hit once in kirbys epic yarn, because it is then impossible to achieve platinum rank. that was jim's whole point.

 

[TheDooD]

Difficulty and Death are a needed thing in games imo. It builds tension in the easiest fashion, it tests that you took what you learned playing through the game and if you didn't learn something you get punished for it. Losing gems that you can get back ain't shit compared of being punished by death. These days you have quicksave and check points that basically make it moot unless you really come unprepared. Then you're forced to either find an earlier save point or just start the game over.

Sonic been doing what Kirby's Epic Yard does for years. You want to collect as many rings as possible because they grant you extra lives, access to the special stage to get chaos emeralds and they keep Sonic alive from everything but pitfalls, drowning and being crushed.

In Demon's Souls you collects the souls of everything you kill so you don't want to die because you risk losing all the souls you collected with only a chance to collect them again after you start a new game plus. In fallout games you have a basically a carved path to take to gain access to beat the game and its normally easier then exploring the world to get weapons, armor or just to discover more about the world you're in.

i don't mean to sound like a dick here, because i partially agree, but death need not be the be-all end-all of difficulty. for example, in audiosurf ninja mono, if you want any chance of being anywhere near the top scores, you have to play without hitting a single grey block. so if you do hit one, just one, even at the end of the song/level, you have failed. you can complete the rest of the song, but in your eyes, and the purpose of the game, you have failed.

i think this was the whole point of this, it is optional difficulty. the idea is that as games have developed, we should have developed as gamers. games are no longer simply a case of play game. beat game. win. the added skill is to be able to beat the game well, in style.

i would equate it to the purpose of side missions. you CAN just beat the story mode, but that's not completing the whole game. if you were to complete all the story mode AND side missions, that is more like it. so think of the collectibles in kirbys epic yarn as the side mission. anybody can beat the game, that is obvious. however to truly complete the game is something entirely different, and as gamers we should be looking for opportunities to do more to complete the game, not just cut out half the challenge and then say it is too easy.

edit: just saw this post

bonus challenge is great for making a tough game have greater lastability, but saying that a platinum rank in kirby: epic yarn is half the difficult of the equivalent in megaman, or ninja giaden, or contra is laughable. Same criteria all around, hit once, restart level. those hard games just became allot more daunting eh?

you have to restart the level if you get hit once in kirbys epic yarn, because it is then impossible to achieve platinum rank. that was jim's whole point.

Death is still a good option when those are going for perfection a small example is Metal Slug. Where you'll lose all the bonus points from POW's when you die. Just playing a game for perfection is more or less an extra task it isn't really difficulty it's just busy work. Like getting 100% in GTA you need to do all side missions that difficult because of the factor that you'll die. Even then its all about bragging rights at the end of the day there's little to no point to get a platinum rank or all the trophies. What would make it worth the trouble of all that work if you at lease gain something anything that improves the gameplay for all your hard work by giving items that'll make the challenge really worth it. Then just stuff to brag about.

 

[suitepee7]

-snip-

Death is still a good option when those are going for perfection a small example is Metal Slug. Where you'll lose all the bonus points from POW's when you die. Just playing a game for perfection is more or less an extra task it isn't really difficulty it's just busy work. Like getting 100% in GTA you need to do all side missions that difficult because of the factor that you'll die. Even then its all about bragging rights at the end of the day there's little to no point to get a platinum rank or all the trophies. What would make it worth the trouble of all that work if you at lease gain something anything that improves the gameplay for all your hard work by giving items that'll make the challenge really worth it. Then just stuff to brag about.

i'm not disagreeing on that though. i agree with you on some level, my point is that the 100% completion thing, the platinum medals and such, is the whole point of this episode.

and if you're going to get into the subject of bragging rights, then that depends on your focus on it. the fact remains, the challenge is there for those who want the challenge. if you can't be assed and just want an experience, you don't have to play it on a harder difficulty.

come to think of it, that is the whole point of difficulty settings. if you want the gameplay to be easier, and just complete it for the story, the setting, or the experience, you can. however if you want the extra difficulty, the extra challenge, you try and beat it on the hardest difficulty. that makes the game more difficult because you choose to find the challenge. just because it is optional doesn't mean it shouldn't be tried.

 

[Jyggalag]

Best episode so far. Perfectionists know that the real challenge is completion, not surviving the bear minimum.

 

[Chezza]

An interesting theory you got there Jim. I like it. And I also respect how you openly acknowledge and enjoy unique games like Kirby Yarn something. But I have an itch...

Your persona, your intro and music have encouraged me to believe you are quite the fan of games such as the original Fallouts or FPS games like Killzone. Someone with more fond memories of the gore fest Doom over Zelda and Mario Kart. But that doesn't seem to be the case. It appears games like Kirby, Mario and some strange looking childish game titles seem to be your cup of tea... or at least majority of your positive or defensive examples seem to feature such titles...

Are you a bad arse self-obsessed Totalitarian Dictator sort of gamer or the strange cousin playing pokemon I see in the odd wedding, fiddling with his game-boy in the reception?

 

[Jennacide]

difficulty:
Minor problem with this arguement. The people that don't care about that difference are generally not the people who would whine it's too easy. Unless they just like complaining for the sake of trying to sound old school.

This is just flat-out untrue. Plenty of people are saying ?I want the core experience to be a challenge?.

I can't count how many times I will play a game normally, sometimes thinking "well that was too easy, but fun," so what is my next thought do you think? "Well, let's make it harder!" FO3 was too easy, but I love the game. Since then I never use VATS, and mod the game up to put restrictions in areas I believe were to lax, like carry weight. Now I will admit, this is a moddable game, so added difficulty isn't terribly hard. So let's instead look at another game I play the pants off of, Final Fantasy 12.


For FF12 it's easier to add difficulty, play Zodiac style. If you can't get an actual copy of it (there are english patches and instructions on how to do it, if you own both copies like me), just play like you were anyway. Follow strict job classes, and don't use any of the lame auto leveling or early item tricks.

Which brings me to another point, a lot of complaints about how easy a game is come from the same group that will use every cheap trick in the book.

If I have to bar myself from certain tactics, mod the game, and set arbitrary restrictions for myself, then I'm doing the work of the game designer. I?m not just playing the game anymore, I?m making design decisions and playtesting them.

Quite frankly, I probably don?t care enough about your game to do that. Jim is actually engaging in a common fanboy fallacy here- ?You don?t like my favorite game/movie/comic book? Well, you need to work harder at liking it!?. No, I don?t. I can just move on to something else that I do enjoy.

I like how you use the point of trying to call out a logical fallacy, and then make one yourself. You're basically saying the developer should bend to what you want to play, how you want to play, and allowing people to make it harder if they want is out of the question. Rrrrright. Not every game can be IWBTG, Super Meat Boy, or "insert ancient NES title here." There are much bigger audiences being aimed at. That's why games come with difficulty sliders. Sure, not all of the sliders are perfect, but it's an option. I'd readily wager most of the people whining about "games were harder in my day" didn't play half the hard games they quote.

Yeah, Battletoads WAS hard. For good reasons? Hardly. Same goes for Ninja Gaiden. The NG games were hard back then, but not because it was purely execution.

 

[masterbazza]

the real question is..
what kind of hardcore gamer buys 'Kirby's epic yarn'?

I resent that.....big time.

A "hardcore" gamer can't enjoy Kirby's Epic Yarn because....because what? Because it's too colorful? Because it has "Yarn" in the title?

i am sorry that was a poor choice of words
i just doesn't seem like the kind of game that a hardcore gamer would buy
it seems to me that anyone who calls them selves hardcore wouldn't buy this type of game
but this might just be me, and i am not looking for a hate fight

 

[Marmooset]

Was I seeing things, or was Kirby battling sperm at 5:23?

 

[Chezza]

Masterbazza your right. Hard core gamers do not buy Kirby's epic yarn, regardless of some arguments.

There is no official definition for what a "hardcore" gamer really is. There are only generalizations and people's perspective of it when they decide to think deeper about it's meaning.

Lets assume majority of the people out there generalize hardcore gamers rather than delve deeper into discussion. I can wager hardcore gamers are known for the following:
- Very high rate of hours into gaming
- Big on competitive online play
- Never plays campaigns on easy, medium minimum and most likely choose hard
- Generally has an ego and attempts to unlock all achievements of their Favorite games

Question me if you will, but I'm pretty damn sure those 4 points are the general public's "description" of a hard core gamer.

So does Kirby's epic yarn offer enforceable fast paced action? online competitive play? Many hours of game-play (well maybe, I'm not sure about that one). Finally, achievements... well there is little to brag to others online or proof to offer even if you avoid ever getting "hit".

Anyone can claim they are hardcore but don't match those points and loves Kirby's Epic Yarn but its not going to change my opinion.

 

[DanHibiki]

More garbage from Jim. He was starting to.... no not really.

Although hard can equal tedious, tedious does not equal hard.

Oh shut up, everyones sick of you haters, you know what your getting with jim so why bother watching? The rest of us enjoy it so just leave it

Shouldn't you be out defending the new Transformers?

Off you go, now! No time to lose, there's people hating on a Micheal Bay movie out there. Justice must be served! Don thine neck beard and off to the INTERNETS!

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

My first thoughts are "ITS KIRBY" why would it be difficult? Its aimed more for kids than adults. lol. I prefer games that make you use skill. Like with the Hitman games and getting a perfect school.

 

[IkeGreil29]

Very good video, Jim. My only complaint is that you didn't admit the elephant in the room, the fact that SOME games baby you beyond belief.