Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

AzrealMaximillion

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Quadocky said:
In a a non-sarcastic tone: A post on 4chan does not warrant abuse. Saying it was trolling is a complete cop-out because even IF it was, it doesn't mean it was correct or right of them anyway. (Mostly it just reeks of victim blaming.)
Never said it was right, but when you spam 4chan, the reaction that Sarkeesian got was expected due to the reputation of 4chan. And to be honest, its hardly "victim blaming" when the victim initiates the reaction. That's like felling sorry for the black guy who gets beaten at by the KKK after he moons them during one of their meetings. This is one of the instances where the phrase, "she asked for it" is honestly too true to ignore.


Me:You're focusing on the trolling and not the actual discourse. This is where you'll lose the argument, because many points have been made against the way that Sarkeesian judges pop culture without research or contextual thinking. You keep ignoring that for the sake of "omg but people said they'd rape her". You're giving the trolls a serious input into the debate, and that is why your logic is flawed.
This again? Her research is her own, the context is her feminist perspective. Does that make sense? I did not ignore it, I already basically said is she is correct in her currently published works. In my opinion saying she CRITIQUES pop culture without research or context is blatantly false. I will get to the 'trolls' in a bit here... but before that, I notice you seem to use the word judge instead of critique. You seem to put quite a bit of imagined authority in her hands. Unless you are quite literally thinking she is rendering judgments like Jesus during the Rapture "YOU LIVE!, YOU DIE!"
Here you go with the red herrings and such. I'm sorry, but her barely researched "critiques" are pretty flawed. Anita Sarkeesian takes a backwards approach to finding sexism in forms of media. She starts off with the conclusion that whatever she's talking about is sexist and then uses cherrypicked points to try and prove it. My problem with that method is that she automatically labels the subject sexist rather than explore the possibility of it being a subject with some sexist aspect. She labels subjects as completely sexist and at points has admittedly judged things she hasn't completely looked at(like when she called a Kanye West music video sexist and openly said she didn't watch the whole video). I'm not rendering her judgments as anything more than half baked criticisms.

There's also a major issue of transparency of opinions in her online works, but I'll get into that later.

I don't know if I will blow your mind by saying this, but the people who said those things AND MUCH WORSE, were actually serious about what they were saying.
Thank you, this is the third time that you've pointed out that people are insanely callous on the internet. I'm out of gold stars. But seriously, the irony of how you claim that I'm giving her an "imagined authority" when she says her critiques is really too funny. Especially when coupled with the fact that you keep giving the words of trolls and people who aren't making intelligent discourse much more authority than they warrant.

Just a thought, quit bringing up the troll opinion because its not helping your point. To be real here, I don't even know your stance on this, its not clear and you've yet to state why you're defending Anita Sarkeesian. You seem to be defending her from trolls, not intelligent points.

Because she was attacked because she is a woman?
By trolls, not by people who have points. If you can't accept the fact that people have legitimate gripes with her, why are you even arguing?

Because those who disagree with her can't seem to do it without accusing her of being a scammer or underhanded in some way?
That's fine, but you're not arguing my points against her very well. I'm also not calling her a scammer or underhanded. Haven't done so at all during this back and forth. I'm questioning her ability to critique something without ignoring context completely. Are you debating me? Or do you wish you were debating trolls? Because you don't seem to have a handle on what I'm talking about and keep wanting to drag the conversation to something it has nothing to do with at the moment.

Because those who disagree with her are indeed wrong in most cases given that they seem to revolve around personal attacks based on her integrity rather than developing a decent understanding of feminism and understand how it applies in context of her perspective and critique?
And you have no proof of this at all. You're ignoring people who are making an attempt at civil discourse over and over. Now please stop this nonsense of skirting around what I'm talking about.

Quit concentrating on the screams of trolls and 4chan lurkers and join us here on the topic of the "Isms" of gaming. State your point.
The point is: Its like watching a bunch of racists argue whether or not white people can be racist while hanging a black man for looking at a white woman.

Pardon the morbid comparison, but that is basically the depths of wrongness I keep encountering in relation to Anita when people are just so keen on discussion about her.[/quote] Yet you've still ignored all of my points and only established that the majority of people you seem to be paying attention to can't make a well mannered argument. You've also proved that neither can you.
 

Quadocky

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AzrealMaximillion said:
Never said it was right, but when you spam 4chan, the reaction that Sarkeesian got was expected due to the reputation of 4chan. And to be honest, its hardly "victim blaming" when the victim initiates the reaction. That's like felling sorry for the black guy who gets beaten at by the KKK after he moons them during one of their meetings. This is one of the instances where the phrase, "she asked for it" is honestly too true to ignore.
No, that is called blaming the victim.

Hence the morbid comparison previous. Really this is a problem. The lack of awareness is astounding.

I don't even understand what points you want me to argue against given yours are not so much apparent to me besides:

1. Her criticisms are flawed.
So what? What makes Anita special in this regard? The only answer I have is that she applies a feminist perspective and that seems to rile a certain group of people up so badly that they make this entire thing a controversy. By comparison Yahtzee states much more dire things about video games as a media in his reviews (not very flattering at all, especially considering he makes fun of the people who play them in doing so, and no its not done ironically.)

2. She 'was asking for it'
...No. That is disgusting.

3. She assumes sexism in her critiques beforehand.
???? I don't see this.?????

4. Prove it
Do you wish for me to compile a rouges gallery of ill repute? I generally don't have the constitution to read such things without delving into bald contempt. The thing is, even if I did, I don't think it matters given what the controversy was in the first place.

5. They are trolls!
So? Why should we tolerate anti-social behavior in any case? They are not a force of nature, they are human beings (most likely grown men) committing anti-social acts. That is reprehensible and disgusting.

6. You are ignoring civil discourse.
Oh, I thought I was being rather polite. Many pardons.

7. Red Herrings and such
Uh... its just a critique? That is all I am saying. There are tons of them out there. The word choice of judge was odd to me is all.

8. Did I miss all your points?

If I did please point them out plainly to me in a concise manner so that I may offer my piece in response.
 

AzrealMaximillion

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Quadocky said:
If you didn't get my point by now, go back and read my posts again.

If you still don't get my point, you're not going to, and I really don't feel the need to repeat it when you can read it.

You're points are all over the place and really don't have a base. I don't know what to say other than I'm not going to continue this debate until you know what you're debating.
 

Quadocky

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AzrealMaximillion said:
Quadocky said:
If you didn't get my point by now, go back and read my posts again.

If you still don't get my point, you're not going to, and I really don't feel the need to repeat it when you can read it.

You're points are all over the place and really don't have a base. I don't know what to say other than I'm not going to continue this debate until you know what you're debating.
I wasn't so much debating rather than attempting to make the picture more clear as to why there was controversy
 

WildFire15

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I've only just heard this from Kotaku, but it seems there's a handful of people suddenly kicking up stink of Tiny Tina in Borderlands 2 for apparently being racist (http://kotaku.com/5981171/borderlan...conveys-racism-as-some-players-think-[update])

One of the lines specified is "white girl talkin' like them urban folk!!", which I don't see how it's racist. It's not referring to anyone in particular and it's not aiming an insult at them either. It seems to be Caucasians suddenly feel that any even potentially slightest offensive thing whether it is or not is instantly racist and must be shot down. I've also noticed in these discussions it's only Caucasians who can be racist, which is ridiculous in itself.

There really is a problem with this. On the Titan Network forum, many fans of City of Heroes and debated what NCsoft's reasoning for shutting down City of Heroes is (my opinion? NCsoft seem to think they're so big and special that an MMO that brings in 'enough money to run the game but not to fill our wallets' isn't worth running so shut it down with no intention of selling) and the idea of how asian businesses expecting anyone 'below' them in a company to automatically respect them and that when Paragon Studios asked if they could buy themselves and the CoH IP out (as they could see NCsoft had no intention of continuing the game), NCsoft turned on them for their insubordination. The idea fit, but someone suddenly cried racist and the whole debate broke down as someone was desperate to be offended.

It truly is sad and I'm pretty certain it pushed a fair few people away from the effort to save the game/build a successor.
 

the spaciest

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Quadocky said:
the spaciest said:
Is it really sexist for a game set in a generic fantasy world (for "generic fantasy" read "The Dark Ages with dragons and magiks") to contain a quest where a woman is humiliated for her wanton ways with men?

It's interesting that feminists are so vocal about what they consider to be misogynistic in the media, and yet if I were to pick out just a tiny portion of the glaringly misandric mechanisms present in culture, most people's first response would be.... "Hurr durr, what does misandric mean?" That's because the inverse of sexism against women has been so sublimated, even the victims are blithely ignorant and will probably go to great lengths to chastise me for even suggesting that it's a two way street.
Its mostly misogynistic, and why should a FANTASY game conform to incorrect stereotypes of the 'ye olden times'?

Also that is because there is no such thing as misandry. At least, in terms of comparison to the blatant misogyny that still exists. Saying its a two way street is completely disingenuous in terms of mainstream culture.
If you have a cock and balls between your legs, you should remove them post haste! You poor emasculated apologist!

/end ad hominem

Consider how often men are brutalized and killed in video-games and movies. And not an eyelid blinks.

When the victims are female, in most "entertainment media" the concession is made that "this is an exception" and that "we'll make this a drawn out, emotional thing, because - you know - women, they're umm important". Laughably, even with such concessions, the feminist whingers get on their high horse and complain about it.

Remember that shit film "Hostel"? Didn't raise that many eyebrows did it; but when a sequel was made that featured women - suddenly it was labeled "vile" and "torture porn" and there were calls abound, from feminazis the world over to drop the ban hammer...

Because, you know, reasons...

Apparently violence is only really reprehensible when women are in the firing line. Men are disposable - and not only that but men are the perpetrators of violence. The very term "torture porn" is suggestive that the theatres would have been full of teenage boys, fantasy-wanking over their glossy, tortured female counterparts...

What a fucking joke. I'm barely scratching the surface of the undercurrent of this endemic hatred of men - but consider this. Can we truly consider women to be strong, independent people, when every 2 seconds, some pathetic fuck has to ask for people to reign-in their shit, lest some whining ***** get offended.

My advice to women is to man the fuck up!