Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[wizzy555]

If you look in the UK we have a law about speech banning "threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour" in public. This led to a student getting arrested for asking a policeman if he knew his police horse was gay. Since then parliament dropped the "insulting" bit from the law.

edit: it also lead to arrests of people who called Scientology a cult

 

[Blunderman]

If I had a penny for every person in this thread who throws around words like "censor" and "free speech" without actually knowing what they mean...

I fail to see a single counter-argument in this paragraph.

In your ideal world, every Asian person who ever gets called a "raghead terrorist c**t" in the street just needs to "grow up" and stop being so offended.

That's funny. I would've thought that if I meant that, I would've said it. That said, yeah, if we taught people to not pay attention to the opinions on imbeciles and morons, we'd all be better off. Taking offence to them grants them a level of power and it's not a prerequisite for criticising them.

A bully will be a bully until their victims no longer respond to their empty words. Teach people to be strong in themselves, not to run to their mother every time someone calls them a bad word.

If you're talking about real discrimination, it's an entirely different subject altogether. I think you'll find that a victim of racism, sexism or the holocaust couldn't care less about a silly piece of media; they've experienced the reality, not the romanticised version of subjugation imagined by internet white knights.

If you choose to ignore homophobia, sexism and racism then ... good for you, I guess? Unfortunately, just looking the other way hasn't really proved to be an effective tactic for improving society as a whole. Telling people to just shut up and look away and ignore this shit, and above all saying "if you're offended then that's your problem", is the exactly the reaction that anyone gets when they try to bring up problems in gaming. It's exactly the kind of stupid, kneejerk, silencing bullshit that Jim was talking about in this video.

Again, if I meant that we should ignore homophobia and racism and look the other way, I would've said it. Also, if I wanted to "silence" someone, I would've said that, too. You have a very vivid imagination, friend.

Like I said, taking offence is not a prerequisite for criticism. In fact, it leads to nonsensical moral crusades against trivial nonsense rather than criticising the actual problems of society. Mature debates and actual change springs from sensible discussions based on intellectual reasons, not emotional ones.

Free speech goes both ways. If you say something that people disagree with, especially if you're a AAA game developer and the thing that you say is going to reach an audience of millions, then people have the right to criticise what you say. Free speech means that you are free to speak, not that you are free to speak without fear of anyone speaking back. If you can't be bothered to look up the proper definition of "free speech" - or just find the whole thing too baffling to wrap your head around - then don't try to use it in an argument.

This is getting really rather tiring, and very embarrassing for you. Please point to where I said that I wanted to in any way silence the people who criticise what they don't like. If you read my post again, you'll notice that my point was that censorship was bad, not criticism.

Also, I have no idea how you manage to characterise "media" (i.e. all films, books, television, games, advertising etc.) as "devastatingly trivial". Hey, they're just the things that surround us in just about every aspect of our everyday lives. They only help to form, and are symptomatic of, every single one of our society's attitudes, beliefs and prejudices. How important could they possibly be?

All the more reason to teach people that entertainment media is an appalling source of personal values. It's a business, designed and operated to make money, not to teach you important lessons about life and morality. To think otherwise is remarkably naïve.

 

[Paradoxrifts]

Free speech goes both ways. If you say something that people disagree with, especially if you're a AAA game developer and the thing that you say is going to reach an audience of millions, then people have the right to criticise what you say. Free speech means that you are free to speak, not that you are free to speak without fear of anyone speaking back. If you can't be bothered to look up the proper definition of "free speech" - or just find the whole thing too baffling to wrap your head around - then don't try to use it in an argument.

Also, I have no idea how you manage to characterise "media" (i.e. all films, books, television, games, advertising etc.) as "devastatingly trivial". Hey, they're just the things that surround us in just about every aspect of our everyday lives. They only help to form, and are symptomatic of, every single one of our society's attitudes, beliefs and prejudices. How important could they possibly be?

Except you routinely use the exact same plays out of the exact same playbook as conservative pundits use to bash services and products that they disapprove of. First you plead with consumers, then you threaten providers and in the fullness of time you will attempt legislation wherever it may be successfully implemented. And you routinely do it without even a trace of self-awareness or irony as you attempt to dissemble the very same freedoms of expression that allowed for your political philosophies to manifest themselves. Some people will always be a feminist, first and foremost, or a LGBT activist, first and foremost, or a right-wing christian conservative, first and foremost, and it is these sorts of people who cannot be compromised or bargained with. Because they're not interested in getting along, or finding common ground with the rest of society. All they're really interested in is winning. Any collateral damage they happen to cause while pursuing victory is acceptable because gaming is worth more to them as a battleground then as a source of quality entertainment.

Whether a person's personal politics leans to the left or the right, if they're an opinionated son of a ***** who thinks they know whats best for me and everybody else in the entire world, I would dearly like dissuade them of that notion. In a perfect world I would not need to wish for them all to fuck right off and crawl under a rock and die, because in a perfect world such people would not exist.

When you get right down to it thinking that you know what's best for other people the root cause of 97% of all problems experienced by humanity after the world's very first recorded agricultural surplus.

 

[wizzy555]

See above. You tell people that they shouldn't complain about offensive material, therefore you think they should stay silent. You also try to shame them into staying silent. Get it?

Well I think you shame into silence the people who DO like the media.

The lack of self awareness is mindboggling.

All through this thread there's been "these tactics are awful and wrong..... except when we use them"

 

[wizzy555]

See above. You tell people that they shouldn't complain about offensive material, therefore you think they should stay silent. You also try to shame them into staying silent. Get it?

Well I think you shame into silence the people who DO like the media.

The lack of self awareness is mindboggling.

All through this thread there's been "these tactics are awful and wrong..... except when we use them"

Hahahaha what? Did you even watch Jim's video?

Let me gives you the Cliffs Notes: it is possible to criticise an aspect of a piece of media without declaring the entire thing to be bad. If you somehow manage to construe "I don't like the sexy nun-killing trailer" as "ANYONE WHO ENJOYS THE HITMAN GAMES IS A MISOGYNIST PERVERT" then ... well...

I hate to say it, but I think you're being a bit oversensitive.

I'm not referring to Jim's video. I'm referring to YOU.

 

[wizzy555]

I'm not referring to Jim's video. I'm referring to YOU.

Oh, you were referring to ME. Gotcha. OK, go ahead and quote the comment where I tried to shame people into silence for liking a game, then we'll talk.

You shame people who fight against improving the media, isn't it possible these are people who like the media the way it is?

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

There are stereotypes and there are isms. To different things. Some games are sold based on isms.....the 50cent game and GTA with the black guy being a stereotype "am gang and ****** whats up?" bullshit. Woman wearing sexy clothes, men all muscle bound and gruff and brave. Its mostly stereotype stuff. Not an ism. Why cant a group of female assassins wear fetish nun stuff? Wasnt it woman that say a woman should be able to wear what they want? Maybe (in the game world) thats just there thing...thats just what they wear, they are not real woman nor should they be thought of or compared to real woman. Now im not saying its excusable. But look at movies like Underworld.....all tight leather/plastic outfits but strong female characters. Even Conan the Barbarian had just a loin cloth. I think people are judging things way to much. A game is just a game. A character i think is a stereotype and racist can be accepted by black people as fine. Same with female and male gamers.

 

[Blunderman]

You are labouring under the misconception that every criticism of something like the Hitman/Lara Croft trailers is an attempt to censor and/or limit someone's free speech.

Please point to where I made this claim. Seriously, learn the difference between what I said and what you understand. I'm only responsible for the former.

You said that people shouldn't speak up about things that they find offensive. Ergo, you think that they should stay silent. You also use every sad, tired trick in the book to try and shame people into staying silent: everything from calling them childish, to calling them "white knights", to accusing people of being oversensitive and hysterical.

Did I? Did I really? Are you sure that's not just your convenient interpretation? Please point out exactly where I said that people shouldn't criticise.

Yep, there's the old "stop being so emotional" derailment tactic. Blimey, this is like cliché bingo.

You may want to desist from writing stuff without any intellectual value.

People have emotions when they are discriminated against. That is not a failing. And if you paid any attention, you'd realise that the arguments against racism, sexism and homophobia in games are intellectual ones intended to encourage mature debate. FYI, you don't often find phrases like "you're just a white knight" and "grow up" in mature debate.

Indeed, when people suffer discrimination, they do have legitimate emotions. You have not established video games or any kind of media as legitimate discrimination. They always leave room for people to not care. Women being depicted in video games as absurdly proportioned doesn't even compare to being turned down a job because you're a woman; the latter has consequences, the former is just silly, it's like complaining about porn actresses having breast enlargement surgery because it appeals to a largely male-dominated demographic.

Also, prefacing something with "FYI" doesn't grant it any credibility, especially when you're complaining about my using of informal expressions. "White knight" and "grow up" are colloquial and informal and whilst you probably won't find them in a scientific case study, on an internet forum, yeah, you will. Proclaiming your opinion that you "don't often find them in a mature debate" won't avail you. Even if you did establish such a claim, it still won't help your case; the topic at hand isn't appropriate linguistics and expression.

Ask yourself this: Would you hear someone say FYI in a "mature debate"?

See above. You tell people that they shouldn't complain about offensive material, therefore you think they should stay silent. You also try to shame them into staying silent. Get it?

It certainly would be handy for you if you could make conclusions of my behalf, however I never said anything about people's right to complain, only that they should stop being offended and that censorship is bad.

I want you to think really, really hard on this: Did I ever say "they shouldn't complain"? Read my post again and I'm sure that you'll see my point was that their taking offence was immature and that it doesn't give them any right to request the censoring of the object of their offence. I never said that they weren't allowed to criticise.

Oh, so instead of attempting the momentous task of trying to improve media, we should instead take on the relatively easy task of convincing every single person on the planet to never, ever, ever allow their personal values to be influenced by any book, TV show, film or video game. They should instead base their personal values on essays about moralism and ... oh wait, that's another form of media. Hmm. Damn. Might need to rethink this.

Your idea of "improvement" doesn't automatically adhere to the people in charge of what gets published and what doesn't. They want money; they don't care if you're offended. They'll offend you if they think it'll increase the sales of their product. Just look at Dante's Inferno -- these people don't care about you. That's reality. Stop being so naïve.

Again, I'm struck by the irony of you complaining about my informal expressions when you yourself use plenty of informality of your own.

What these guys said.

You know what? I give up. I give up!

I'm a woman. I've been playing games since I was 8. I've followed The Escapist as well as many other gaming websites for years, and pretty much every time the issue of sexism comes up, I go through a certain process - I get a lot of thoughts I want to share, until I notice how the discussions are frankly dripping with stupidity, strawmen, even more sexism, backpedaling, excuses, elitism, and to be honest, I've had enough. The next time a male game dev or journalist makes a braindead joke or comment about women, and someone tells me to "chill out" about it, or to not be so "sensitive", I'm gonna walk the fuck away, and I'm not coming back until this whole community grows up.

Being a woman doesn't automatically make you more credible.

 

[Kartoffelmos]

What these guys said.

You know what? I give up. I give up!

I'm a woman. I've been playing games since I was 8. I've followed The Escapist as well as many other gaming websites for years, and pretty much every time the issue of sexism comes up, I go through a certain process - I get a lot of thoughts I want to share, until I notice how the discussions are frankly dripping with stupidity, strawmen, even more sexism, backpedaling, excuses, elitism, and to be honest, I've had enough. The next time a male game dev or journalist makes a braindead joke or comment about women, and someone tells me to "chill out" about it, or to not be so "sensitive", I'm gonna walk the fuck away, and I'm not coming back until this whole community grows up.

Being a woman doesn't automatically make you more credible.

What the hell are you even talking about? Did I say it did?

 

[wizzy555]

Sorry I've corrected the typo.

I LIKED the slut shaming mission. I thought, "OMG This is slut shaming, I'm not comfortable doing this, what would my character do?"

This is a similar thought process to the cannibal mission and most of the thieves/assassin missions.

So if you want to tell me that I shouldn't be standing up for the artists decision in this case and that my free speech is causing terrible harm, then yes that is a type of silence shaming.

 

[Blunderman]

What the hell are you even talking about? Did I say it did?

Don't worry about it.

 

[wizzy555]

Sorry I've corrected the typo.
So if you want to tell me that I shouldn't be standing up for the artists decision in this case and that my free speech is causing terrible harm, then yes that is a type of silence shaming.

But I didn't tell you that. No one told you that. There's nothing wrong with defending the mission because you think it's clearly defined as one of the "evil" missions of the game. That qualifies as engaging in a debate.

If, on the other hand, you told the people who complained that they were just being a bunch of oversensitive whiners/white knights/feminazis and they should shut up and GTFO if they don't like something, then that would be an attempt to ignore the potential problem and silence anyone who tries to talk about it. And that's generally the response that the gaming community comes up with.

I've not called anyone over-sensitive whiners or told them to shut up - I did call one person stupid.
I do however oppose the notion of changing the game "for the better" and will bring up censorship and free-speech issues in that defence.

Perhaps you should consider that before you start yelling about free-speech defences.

A clarification, it's not that I think it was clearly defined as an evil quest - no quest in skyrim is "clearly defined", that's why I like it. I do however consider it an "evil quest".