Jimquisition: Accepting the Isms

[AzrealMaximillion]

So you're only focusing on the uninformed conversations rather than paying attention to the few that are actually debating both sides. Let me say this, if you're going to base your opinion of the situation on the horribly uninformed screaming of those who don't want to talk about the issue, you're part of the problem. However if you want to actually say how you feel about this situation, rather than try to look good by criticizing those who rage, by all means you're welcome to.

Actually, you were the first to generalise anyone who has a problem with sexism in gaming as ... what was it?

they go on the internet and scream about it ... People ignore intent in order to scream pseudo-intelligent ramblings. It helps them sleep better at night because they think they're a better person than anyone who disagrees.

Huh. Well I do apologise for unfairly lumping people together in one group and dismissing them all as irrational and insecure. What a silly thing to do.

Oh Bravo, you seem to think that by chopping down my point to spin what I said will help you? You've not met me on these forums before.

Here's the full quote:

Sexism is an issue[in reference to gaming] because there's this idea that sexuality characters in video games is somehow worse than movies, music, or everyday actions done by all of us in the real world. Its also because its the latest scapegoat to hit gamers that we haven't been able to deflect immediately as we have in the past like violent video games causing violence.

I personally think that in some cases, people are personally looking for sexism. It's like racism, or any kind of ism. If you look for it, you'll find it. But when people find whatever "ism" they want, instead of looking at any form of intent, they go on the internet and scream about it. Happened with the KSI incident, happened with the Dead Island Statue, and it happened with Anita Sarkeesian.

People ignore intent in order to scream pseudo-intelligent ramblings. It helps them sleep better at night because they think they're a better person than anyone who disagrees.

That's me explaining to another Escapist why sexism is an issue in gaming. And you can't really deny that some people do just come on these forums more to scream about what they think is right and less to actually discuss why they think they're right.

Actually, I was just pointing out that the people who tend to be the most outraged when this topic comes up are the people who don't want to talk about sexism in gaming and refuse to take part in any kind of debate.

It's interesting that the only point you decided to engage with was one of the more extreme arguments of a radical feminist pop-culture critic. Also, you apparently think that people who took issue with KSI asking female con attendees ?What are you doing not fingering yourself?? are just "looking for something to get offended by".

Hahah

Listen if you want me to list every single instance where gaming has been the scapegoat for sexism, it's not going to happen. I just took the most recent and most relevant events that involved gaming and sexism. I've been on these forums actually debating the Sarkeesian style feminism and the overreaction to the KSI event for quite some time now. Hell, go to the Forum search and type up"This kind of behaviour at cons -_- (Eurogamer) (KSI)".

My point about the KSI incident was that the Gameranx article lead a massive mob of people on the internet to be totally ok with falsely accusing KSI of sexual assault. Asking someone why they're not fingering themselves isn't sexual assault. Neither is asking someone if they can motorboat your breasts.

Gameranx took a lot of heat from multiple gaming blogs over that article. The woman who motorboated KSI in the video called out the author and editor for basically trying to make her the victim of sexism when she didn't feel that she was a victim. MovieBob and Jim Sterling were basically ok with what was at its core, libel. What KSI did was sexist, but it was not sexual assault, and that was the issue with that incident.

Listen, if you're going to ignore the fact that people do in fact look for things to get angry at, you're wasting your time debating me. Especially if you're point is going to continue to refer to people who don't want to talk about issues like sexism and gaming.

Point is, I do. Because while it is an issue, people are debating the wrong aspects of it and that upsets me greatly. What what you've said so far, you seem more concerned over people's reactions rather than the issue itself.

 

[PirateRose]

Can we talk about how Mass Effect 3 was far more sexist than Skyrim?

I mean, the altering of female characters appearances to be "sexy", yes the Art of Mass Effect book defines a handful of female appearances as "she had to be sexy", while male characters appearances are made to reflect their hard work, history, and character. Hell there is even a female character in the game that acknowledges having a standard she must meet to attract a boyfriend. Another female character has apparently done nothing but her hair,nails, and went cloths shopping for the last two years and got promoted mysteriously, while her male counter part has been doing all kinds of awesome leadership stuff.

One male character comments on how the female star on the game fills out her uniform well, even if you make it clear at the beginning of the game you don't want him speaking to you like that.

How about male characters can get away with cheating, are allowed to move on to new relationships, all options readily available and ready to step out of his way with minimal consequences, while female star of the game is crucified and can't fight back, all she can do is either smile and move on(great you want to name the baby after me!) or apologize like she did something wrong.

How about the gay romance is mature and well handled, but the lesbian romance starts like a porno and pure male fantasy so bad that the only way it could have been worse is if there was a half naked, wet pillow fight.

Female characters getting drunk off their asses cause they just can't handle their feelings.

The first female of the salarian species is so convincing, manipulative, and just down right evil wanting to out right continue genocide of another species.

An entire race made up of feminine qualities (omg just because they have boobs doesn't make them female lol), is so incompetent, they suddenly are no longer political in their ways and about uniting the galaxy. They turn their backs on every other species that they rely on reproducing with and end up being the losers, the failure race, incapable of holding their own. And one of the strongest characters of this species is reduced to essentially saying, we're made to be dancing in bars not fighting on the front lines.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

snip

I see that you're here just to argue for the sake of arguing and you're not going to argue the issue of sexism in gaming at all as you've failed to do so at all during our back and forth. Listen, I'm done talking to you here. You're not much better than the crowd of people who don't want to talk about sexism in video games because, while you mock them, you seem to be doing everything in your power to insult character rather than talk about sexism in video games. How ironic.

Enjoy your stay on the Escapist.

 

[Polarity27]

Learn to read, please.

HURR DURR AM NRT GRRRD AT RRRRDDN DURR

Third, yeah, I can say it's a flaw all I like, deal with it.Unless you were saying "you don't like it" about the *game*, in which case you really, really didn't read what I said.) Personally? I've been waffling all over this thread about that quest. I don't like it, but it's not as much of a needle-scratch for me as it has been for others. I think if you do stand in the room and listen to the characters, the problems with it are mitigated quite a lot-- the overheard dialogue take it from a potential general statement about what is and isn't okay to "angry teen with a 'ur not my mom and omg, who cares if my bf's a felon!' grudge", and yeah, from a characterization standpoint, "I hated my aunt so much I got The Dragonborn to diss her for me!" says a lot about Svana, and none of it good.

This is the thing. There is nothing to be mad about. Svana is being a *****. You can help her in her destiny to be a true pure ***** or delay it for another day. There is nothing to be mad about.

It's not a flaw. The game would not be better without it. Actually, it would be much worse because of the implication of such "cleansing".

Yes, obviously you aren't good at reading. I didn't say I wanted it gone. I said it was flawed-- and I don't see how that's even debatable. Put up a post, in any space you'd like where people play Skyrim, and ask what that quest was about. I bet you it would shake out like it did here. If even 1 person in 10 remembers that Sibbi had anything to do with it and it's not some cultural thing, I'll be shocked.

If I had a magic wand that gave me magic ponies and magic lottery tickets, I'd have the quest be re-written and more of the overheard dialogue put into the actual quest so that it's more clear that it's Svana's personal grudge. (Since I can grant myself magic unicorns, I'll also add in an option to tell off the quest-offerer on this and a few other quests that don't already have it. "No, I don't know what made you think I'd agree to this, and you have exactly five seconds to remove yourself from my presence before my Thu'um removes you, ass." Seriously, if Bethesda gave me this option on this and Miuri's quests, I'd adore them.)

Skyrim actually does really well on the sexism front, IMO. But I understand how powerful disappointment can be when you think a game is doing great on that front only to get smacked in the face with fail. (Skyrim isn't my example of that. That'd be Halo 4.)

 

[SanguineSymphony]

Any art that isn't offensive is probably pretty shit.

I don't think anyone is going to take my games away I just hate weak people. Being offended by art and thinking that in some way it is a unique or interesting experience is the mark of weak person.

 

[likalaruku]

I'm on the opposite side of the spectrum; I get lambasted by little trolls for enjoying critically panned games. As an adult woman, I should find Duke Nukem Forever juvenile & offensive, but it makes me laugh. I prefer Serious Sam 2 over all other Serious Sam games because it's funny. I completely enjoy Talltale's interactive cartoons because I like cartoons. & That last Star Wars game that came out? That made me laugh too. I eagerly await hilarious non-crashing game glitches. My favorite game in 2010 was Skate 3 because of all the hilarious way you could die.

That's what I really want out of games these days; a dark twisted sense of humor & the good feeling that I can laugh at things that bring misery to others.

 

[Something Amyss]

Go back and look at some threads when the Assisans Creed 3 trailer came out. There were quite a few English people who felt offended that the main character seemed to be singling out Redcoats. They felt that they were demonizing Redcoats. I mean wtf, if there was a game set in Ireland would these same people want the Black and Tan's [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_Tans] to be portrayed in a positive light as well?

That's not even close to "change everything so nothing's offenseive" or whatever.

Besides, in a series that used to be about moral relativism, one that even promoted it wouldn't be taking sides in this installment, demonising one side kind of is bad.

If there was an Assassin's Creed game set in Ireland, I would expect the portrayals to live up to the relativism of prior titles.

...Well, not anymore, after Revelations and 3, but that doesn't so much change the point. I would expect a series that tries to be even handed with the Crusades to try and do the same with the Revolutionary War.

More to the point, people are always free to whine and always going to whine. Even so, whining is a far cry from actual censorship, actual change. You can whine until your face turns blue, and at the end of the day all you have is a sore throat and a blue face. Whining doesn't represent a systematic attempt at change most of the time and even when it is, it's rarely effective. In other words, so what?

 

[Smeatza]

I took the time to read the Skyrim is sexist article and it's quite frankly laughable.
It's just another low content article crammed with enough feminist buzzwords to get the publicity it was seeking.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for there being a dialogue over isms in video games and the video game industry. But let's not make the same mistake of the sensationalist media that has been persecuting video gamers for all these years.

Dead Island is the perfect example. It's had people crying sexism from the start because of all the women zombies in bikini's and the violence towards them. Put it in context though and it all makes sense and there isn't really anything sexist about it (the game that is, not the decision making behind it).
However even if you put it in context, the racial stereotyping in that game is probably the most extreme I've ever seen from a video game.
But does that get discussed? No, either because there is not as much potential cash to be earned discussing racism as there is for sexism or because feminist activists are more numerous/shout louder than racism activists.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

I took the time to read the Skyrim is sexist article and it's quite frankly laughable.
It's just another low content article crammed with enough feminist buzzwords to get the publicity it was seeking.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for there being a dialogue over isms in video games and the video game industry. But let's not make the same mistake of the sensationalist media that has been persecuting video gamers for all these years.

Dead Island is the perfect example. It's had people crying sexism from the start because of all the women zombies in bikini's and the violence towards them. Put it in context though and it all makes sense and there isn't really anything sexist about it (the game that is, not the decision making behind it).
However even if you put it in context, the racial stereotyping in that game is probably the most extreme I've ever seen from a video game.
But does that get discussed? No, either because there is not as much potential cash to be earned discussing racism as there is for sexism or because feminist activists are more numerous/shout louder than racism activists.

I've been saying the same thing about Dead Island, minus the race aspect. As said before in the thread, intent and context are ignored in favour of reasons to get mad.

 

[Namehere]

I suspect the perception of racism or sexism will not leave our society for some time yet. The reality will linger, in pockets, for a short while but it is actually dying.

We're on the verge of magnificent breakthroughs in all sorts of different areas, from Quantum Computing to Gene therapy techniques. It's hardly inconceivable that at some point in the next thirty years, if even that long, someone will come out with a pill that allows you to change your gender over night. The toughest part of the whole procedure will probably be the bureaucratic paper/data work associated with it.

It is unlikely that anyone is going to change the mind of anyone else on this issue. The deep rooted psychological scarring left by holding such beliefs and having acted on them, then witnessing them shatter, is too much for many to bare. Worse still are those who can not give up their hatred, because its all they have left to define themselves by. They knew no other way to prevent themselves from being victimized. These people too can not change, they must be allowed to die off gradually with the changing of the generations. And they will.

Until these events occur there is little we can do as a group, but a great deal we can do to console the wounded and confront the offenders, not with simple hostility and anger, but with care and consideration. We needn't destroy the people who act this way we must merely destroy the impact of those actions. And if we see a problem somewhere, in our daily lives, that is something we can attend to. To attempt to wage some sort of war/struggle against what is basically stupidity is an act of futile madness. There's no cure for stupid. You simply have to be smart enough to find a way around it.

Hope this hasn't run on.

 

[EvilestDeath]

Accept my J-isms on your face Jim

 

[longboardfan]

Accepting the Isms

Games are racist. Games are homophobic. Games are sexist. And that's okay!

Watch Video

Missing the point again. These people that have some sort of hard-on for blaming games for crimes that 'they couldn't have possible committed' or something that cause gamers to 'circle the wagons,' have political motivations that extend well beyond the realm of reason and appropriate response. I'd rather circle the wagons than meet these political/legal engineers half way because they'll take it as a complete win and run amok. I mean its hard enough to convince non-gamers that violence in video games is okay much less try to convince the squeaky clean posers trying to ban video games that just maybe its okay that games show aspects of society that aren't politically correct and may in fact be offensive.

So shut it, keep your head on, and just maybe (just maybe), we'll get to keep our next console generation filled with lots of bland, Gears of Modern Mass Effect 4 look alikes. In the mean time, I'll be playing and buying copies of really old games from Atlus's back catalog where I SUMMON DEMONS FROM THE DEPTHS OF MY FRACTURED SOUL. Good god, we can't even have a school shooting without the freaking Presnit of the US threatening to ban all guns while pundits and other groups attack "violent games," what makes you think that I'll still be able to legally buy and play games where the protagonists summon demons with the option to kill GOD. Oh, and I forgot to mention the people blaming game for mental health issues.

I'm not that big into bait and switch, and I never read or knew about this article you mention by this chick. I just can't take women seriously when they talk about sexism in gaming. Its all they talk about. Their body, their choice, and get these tits out of games. Anita is politically motivated and highly funded by political organizations like NOW. So pardon me if I take anything she says with a heavy dose of "kill it with fire." I HATE and LOATH the politically motivated. They say one thing and then work to kill off whatever hot button issue offends them with legal disputes, censorship, and legal precedents. I mean really, do you expect me to go back in time, and support Jack Thompson? Or does Anita get a pass because she's a woman?

 

[Quadocky]

I mean really, do you expect me to go back in time, and support Jack Thompson? Or does Anita get a pass because she's a woman?

No, that is not what the controversy was about.

She was attacked because she was a woman, regardless of what she said or was going to say in the first place. That is what was so controversial.

Jack Thompson was not attacked for being a man. The two events are completely different.

And saying its a 'political' motivation is incorrect given the obviously hostile backlash.

To clarify, you will generally see 'political' motivation in a more underhanded fashion in order to maintain broad appeal (such as appearing neutral or 'middle of the road' like some of those crazy Anti-Obama ads published by 'grassroots' organizations). Anita was obviously not attempting to garner broad appeal so much as inform.

 

[m19]

She was attacked because she was a woman, regardless of what she said or was going to say in the first place. That is what was so controversial.

No she was not. She got attacked because if what she was talking about, same as Jack Thompson. Just because a woman is being attacked doesn't me she is attacked because she's a woman.

 

[hazydawn]

I personally think that in some cases, people are personally looking for sexism. It's like racism, or any kind of ism. If you look for it, you'll find it. But when people find whatever "ism" they want, instead of looking at any form of intent, they go on the internet and scream about it. Happened with the KSI incident, happened with the Dead Island Statue, and it happened with Anita Sarkeesian.

People ignore intent in order to scream pseudo-intelligent ramblings. It helps them sleep better at night because they think they're a better person than anyone who disagrees.

Exactly what I'm thinking ^^

Just because in Skyrim there is this one quest where you're able to(you don't have to) shame a woman for sleeping with three men doesn't mean the game itself is sexist. Same with killing Paarthurnax at the end of the game. Just because it shows up in your quest journal doesn't mean you have to do it, no, you decide to do so. But lets assume the fictional land of Skyrim would be sexist.
Just because a game depicts a sexist, racist or whatever society, doesn't mean the game developers are promoting the idea of it.
It's actually astounding to what degree Skyrim isn't sexist and racist. Women are soldiers, adventurers and bandits just as men are, they hold influential postitions. Yes there is racism in the game but that only makes it more realistic, imagine if our world had cat or lizard people in it, I think we'd still regard them as less "human".

 

[Quadocky]

She was attacked because she was a woman, regardless of what she said or was going to say in the first place. That is what was so controversial.

No she was not. She got attacked because if what she was talking about, same as Jack Thompson. Just because a woman is being attacked doesn't me she is attacked because she's a woman.

No, I don't know why you are disagreeing with me given your statement is blatantly false.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

She was attacked because she was a woman, regardless of what she said or was going to say in the first place. That is what was so controversial.

No she was not. She got attacked because if what she was talking about, same as Jack Thompson. Just because a woman is being attacked doesn't me she is attacked because she's a woman.

No, I don't know why you are disagreeing with me given your statement is blatantly false.

Clearly @m19 \s statement isn't false. There are plenty of feminists one the internet with some clout. Anita Sarkeesian had a big following before Tropes vs. Women. A following of 30,000 subscribers and colleges that paid her to speak on the issue of gender equality.


She was attacked because she spammed 4chan specifically with her ads for the Tropes vs. Women Kickstarter (also know as the only YouTube video she didn't moderate/censor in her favour).

Don't try and pass this off as an attack on a woman because she's a woman, when that's clearly not the case. 4chan's volatile and hostile reputation was used to garner attention and trolls took the bait. There are plenty or people attacking, and quite frankly destroying Ms. Sarkeesian's points with intelligent discourse everyday on this site. And it's not because she's a woman.

It's because she uses the worst kind of straw feminism to argue her uninformed points. All of her points are cherry picked and lack context. It's also because she's what's known as an anti-sex feminist. Her branch of feminism portrays the idea that women can't make the decision to do anything sexually of there own will, but instead do it at the behest of men. That in itself is sexist thinking. There are plenty of pro-sex feminists (some on YouTube who outright call Sarkeesian out) who majorly disagree with a lot of Anita's views.

They're women, why aren't they getting attacked? Because their points make sense and are informed. Anita Sarkeesian thinks that when a girl wears showy clothing that they're doing it for attention, not because they generally like the clothing.

Point is, stop perpetrating the idea that Anita Sarkeesian is getting attacked simply because she has breasts. That point was defeated when this whole thing started.

 

[Quadocky]

She was attacked because she was a woman, regardless of what she said or was going to say in the first place. That is what was so controversial.

No she was not. She got attacked because if what she was talking about, same as Jack Thompson. Just because a woman is being attacked doesn't me she is attacked because she's a woman.

No, I don't know why you are disagreeing with me given your statement is blatantly false.

She was attacked because she spammed 4chan specifically with her ads for the Tropes vs. Women Kickstarter (also know as the only YouTube video she didn't moderate/censor in her favour).

Don't try and pass this off as an attack on a woman because she's a woman, when that's clearly not the case. 4chan's volatile and hostile reputation was used to garner attention and trolls took the bait. There are plenty or people attacking, and quite frankly destroying Ms. Sarkeesian's points with intelligent discourse everyday on this site. And it's not because she's a woman.

Point is, stop perpetrating the idea that Anita Sarkeesian is getting attacked simply because she has breasts. That point was defeated when this whole thing started.

Oh yes, normally people wouldn't give out misogyny and rape threats, but once you spam 4chan all best are off!

Gimmie a break. Really? Really?!

And the whole thing about sex-positve and sex-negative doesn't mean diddly squat unless you actually understand feminism in the first place. I can tell you that giving someone rape threats is NEITHER sex-positive or sex-negative.

Also its a funny thing, there seems to be a lapse of 'intelligent' discussion in any regard to Anita. Most of the discussion I see is pettiness shrouded in self-righteous smugness.

 

[AzrealMaximillion]

Oh yes, normally people wouldn't give our misogyny and rape threats, but once you spam 4chan all best are off!

Gimmie a break. Really? Really?!

May want to word that better. I have no idea what you're going on about here.

And the whole thing about sex-positve and sex-negative doesn't mean diddly squat unless you actually understand feminism in the first place. I can tell you that giving someone rape threats is NEITHER sex-positive or sex-negative.

You're focusing on the trolling and not the actual discourse. This is where you'll lose the argument, because many points have been made against the way that Sarkeesian judges pop culture without research or contextual thinking. You keep ignoring that for the sake of "omg but people said they'd rape her". You're giving the trolls a serious input into the debate, and that is why your logic is flawed. If you think that anyone who attacks Anita Sarkeesian with "get back to the kitchen" or "suck my dick" is to be considered seriously, you're gonna have a hard time debating with people who actually have arguments against her. In fact, you haven't really argued against those points at all. You've argued the non-important points of the trolls.

Also its a funny thing, there seems to be a lapse of 'intelligent' discussion in any regard to Anita. Most of the discussion I see is pettiness shrouded in self-righteous smugness.

Yet, you've not really engaged in any points. You're just judging people's points and trying to tell people that Anita Sarkeesian was attacked because she's a woman. You haven't actually argued why you think she's right, or why you think those who disagree with her are in the wrong.


You're calling people self-righteous and smug while patting yourself on the back for pointing out that trolls scream.

Quit concentrating on the screams of trolls and 4chan lurkers and join us here on the topic of the "Isms" of gaming. State your point.

 

[hazydawn]

You're really good at debating AzrealMaximillion ^^
It's always fun to me reading good, thought-out arguments.
Even when they go against the opinion I hold at that time but make me question my believe.
Sadly I never reach that level myself :S