Jim's done a video on this. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7005-Innovation-Gamings-Snake-Oil]Sach said:
Jimquisition: Batman Is Everything Wrong With Square Enix
- Thread starter Jimothy Sterling
- Start date
What criteria are we using to determine "proficiency"?Headbiter said:
Sure, if you have brand recognition and a royal fanbase, you can get away with shitty graphics.Headbiter said:
But if you don't and are trying to get noticed among 100s of games released each year, eye catching graphics are a must.
WoW is a bad example. Graphics help a ton to set the atmosphere of the game, which is very important in an RPG. WoW's graphics were pretty decent compared to it's competition at time of release - namely EQ1 and EQ2. But it has been 8 years since ... currently the game is pretty much running on fumes, it ain't attracting many new players - who now have access to much prettier and non-sub MMOs.
Let me put it this way. Good graphics cost money. Big publishers are publics companies that only care about their bottom line. If they could go cheap on the graphics, you bet your arse they would.
Taste is subjective I guess, I actually like the art direction of a lot of Final Fantasy stuff, though not all of it. The straps and buckles don't bother me, and I can deal with some of the large weapons at times, but in a lot of cases I do have to admit the guy doing the art just needs to know when to stop. I can't dismiss the entire series or art direction, though I do think specific characters and designs have gone too far.
When it comes to that whole "Batman" figure I have to say that my real problem with it isn't the specifics, as much as the guy doing it seems to have lost sight of who Batman is supposed to be. Batman is supposed to be a "regular" human who happens to be at the limits of physical and mental ability and has a lot of money to develop technology and gizmos. His rogues gallery are escaped asylum inmates, and organizes crime figures, with an occasional supernatural being or whatever thrown in for flavor. As a general rule, Batman as a character succeeds because of his brains, he is first and foremost supposed to be "the world's greatest detective", and because he's trained really hard. Originally the guy wore tights largely because that's what acrobats and the like wore (same logic for most super heroes) and it was not only easy/cool to draw, but makes a degree of sense from a movement perspective. Later the character was somewhat updated to be wearing body armor, in part because it looks better in live action and is going to make more sense to a modern eye and way of thinking.
The problem with that design is that it seems like it's some kind of weaponized costume, like a suit of powered armor or something, perhaps using demonic or organic technology. While Batman *has* used powered armor as an occasional thing in various stories, for the most part he does not, Batman is not "Iron Man" while that door is open to him, as a general rule it's all about him doing it, with the help of some gizmos in a utility belt, not because he runs around in a suit he made to give him a bunch of powers. The guy relies on stealth because as a general rule, he can't just take on a bunch of gun wielding maniacs head on, and he beats people massively more powerful than him by out thinking, and out planning them (even if a lot of it comes down to writer's fiat).
The point of this ramble is that this statue actually does remind me of something from Batman actually. It reminds me of Azbat (Azrael as Batman) a guy who overdid it with the weapons and armor, and the whole point of was how he sort of missed the point of what it was to be Batman when he was temporarily given the cowl. This seems like something someone who wanted to be Batman, but who didn't have the same skills and/or missed the point might wind up being like.
I'll also say that while I can get behind the weird angles, and the body armor, those giant freaking extra hands just don't fit. That looks like something from "Spawn" not DC comics.
On the other hand... in a "what if" crossover story where the young Bruce Wayne is gunned down in the same alleyway as his parents, and infused with Necroplasm and put into a man's body before being sent back to earth so his quest for vengeance would fully turn him to evil so he could lead the armies of evil... well this is what I imagine "Batspawn" might look like. It's something that might be cute for like a 4 issue series in the vein of something like "Haunted Gotham" or whatever.
When it comes to that whole "Batman" figure I have to say that my real problem with it isn't the specifics, as much as the guy doing it seems to have lost sight of who Batman is supposed to be. Batman is supposed to be a "regular" human who happens to be at the limits of physical and mental ability and has a lot of money to develop technology and gizmos. His rogues gallery are escaped asylum inmates, and organizes crime figures, with an occasional supernatural being or whatever thrown in for flavor. As a general rule, Batman as a character succeeds because of his brains, he is first and foremost supposed to be "the world's greatest detective", and because he's trained really hard. Originally the guy wore tights largely because that's what acrobats and the like wore (same logic for most super heroes) and it was not only easy/cool to draw, but makes a degree of sense from a movement perspective. Later the character was somewhat updated to be wearing body armor, in part because it looks better in live action and is going to make more sense to a modern eye and way of thinking.
The problem with that design is that it seems like it's some kind of weaponized costume, like a suit of powered armor or something, perhaps using demonic or organic technology. While Batman *has* used powered armor as an occasional thing in various stories, for the most part he does not, Batman is not "Iron Man" while that door is open to him, as a general rule it's all about him doing it, with the help of some gizmos in a utility belt, not because he runs around in a suit he made to give him a bunch of powers. The guy relies on stealth because as a general rule, he can't just take on a bunch of gun wielding maniacs head on, and he beats people massively more powerful than him by out thinking, and out planning them (even if a lot of it comes down to writer's fiat).
The point of this ramble is that this statue actually does remind me of something from Batman actually. It reminds me of Azbat (Azrael as Batman) a guy who overdid it with the weapons and armor, and the whole point of was how he sort of missed the point of what it was to be Batman when he was temporarily given the cowl. This seems like something someone who wanted to be Batman, but who didn't have the same skills and/or missed the point might wind up being like.
I'll also say that while I can get behind the weird angles, and the body armor, those giant freaking extra hands just don't fit. That looks like something from "Spawn" not DC comics.
On the other hand... in a "what if" crossover story where the young Bruce Wayne is gunned down in the same alleyway as his parents, and infused with Necroplasm and put into a man's body before being sent back to earth so his quest for vengeance would fully turn him to evil so he could lead the armies of evil... well this is what I imagine "Batspawn" might look like. It's something that might be cute for like a 4 issue series in the vein of something like "Haunted Gotham" or whatever.
Let's put it this way, look at all the commemorative plates and such that have been moved with the image of people like Prince Charles on them. The royal fanbase indeed does not seem to care what they buy.Wulfram77 said:
Looking at the design of the uh *thing* that was inspired by Batman I was reminded of Yahtzee's description of Darksiders' War character: 'looks like someone sat down, started drawing him and then never freaking stopped.' It is like the worst of the 1990s comics where you had characters so over designed that nobody wanted to draw them. I cannot understand why people think overdrawing a character like this is a good idea.Lugardo Sandoval said:
Even worse being a Judge Dread fan I have to say this Batman looks more like the Vatican's Judge of the Judge Dredd series then any Batman I have seen.
You know shockingly enough, I watched the video and it took me a whole to realize I actually disagreed with it. It's so easy to make fun of belts and spikes and needlessly overdesigned complected elements in Square Enix's games, but really stopping to think about the arguments about it the basic argument here bugs me. What is so inherently great about minimalism and simplicity?
Pac-man, Mario, and the rest are not iconic because they are minimalist, they are iconic because they were part of landmark breakthroughs in games and game design. They are simple because the games needed them to be simple to explore their mechanics and to give more attention to the world around them. They were not characters, they are devices, and any other characterization was besides the point. I will not defend Final Fantasy XIII because it looks stupid and I never played it, but I will say personally I hated Final Fantasy 4.
I mean I am personally kind of a fan of "maximalism" in design, though more in terms of complex fractal patterns, and I even like really complected story lines with lots of world building. I think the thing is, there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it, and Square Enix simply does it the wrong way. The same can be said of minimalism. I am sure I don't need to try hard to point out bad games that use black and white environments or low res pixel art simply to be "artsy".
Pac-man, Mario, and the rest are not iconic because they are minimalist, they are iconic because they were part of landmark breakthroughs in games and game design. They are simple because the games needed them to be simple to explore their mechanics and to give more attention to the world around them. They were not characters, they are devices, and any other characterization was besides the point. I will not defend Final Fantasy XIII because it looks stupid and I never played it, but I will say personally I hated Final Fantasy 4.
I mean I am personally kind of a fan of "maximalism" in design, though more in terms of complex fractal patterns, and I even like really complected story lines with lots of world building. I think the thing is, there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it, and Square Enix simply does it the wrong way. The same can be said of minimalism. I am sure I don't need to try hard to point out bad games that use black and white environments or low res pixel art simply to be "artsy".
Square's one of my favorite punching bags, but I'm honestly fine with their take on Batman. Probably because they haven't figured out how to give action figures dialogue. It's ridiculously elaborate, but that was how Square did things even when they were sane.
Cecil and Golbez wore layered clusterfucks of metal onion peels and spikes that went nowhere. Golbez's shoulderpads were each almost as big as his Johnny Bravo-sized chest and existed solely to prevent him from glancing to the side. Cecil's armor should have been impossible to ever put on or move around in, looking more like a blue and white paint spill trying to strangle an albino.
The sprite artists and our memories never even tried to interpret the two for what they were. They were just "dude in white armor and cape" and "dude in black armor and cape." Their look is so un-iconic, 90% of their fanart doesn't even look related to each other. But if they're still memorable as characters, their habit of confusing Rube Goldberg machines for clothing wasn't the problem.
This Batman is actually a pretty good action figure of "dude in black armor and mechanical wings," and I'd say the level of detail is Square's debilitating OCD used for good. The armor bothers resembling armor, it sticks to two colors, and the Batman Beyond logo of a visor is strikingly memorable. If it tried to tell a story, though, then there'd be a problem.
"Bruce Wayne, a Knight of Gotham, experiences a vision brought on by the mysterious force of Chaos known only as the Clown Prince. He sees a future in which all souls are trapped in the dimension of insanity scientists call A.R.K.H.A.M. Unless he can defeat the Fears led by the Scarecrow--what do you mean this sounds like nonsense? No, shut up, though. You're just not deep enough to understand TRUE DARKNESS."
Cecil and Golbez wore layered clusterfucks of metal onion peels and spikes that went nowhere. Golbez's shoulderpads were each almost as big as his Johnny Bravo-sized chest and existed solely to prevent him from glancing to the side. Cecil's armor should have been impossible to ever put on or move around in, looking more like a blue and white paint spill trying to strangle an albino.
The sprite artists and our memories never even tried to interpret the two for what they were. They were just "dude in white armor and cape" and "dude in black armor and cape." Their look is so un-iconic, 90% of their fanart doesn't even look related to each other. But if they're still memorable as characters, their habit of confusing Rube Goldberg machines for clothing wasn't the problem.
This Batman is actually a pretty good action figure of "dude in black armor and mechanical wings," and I'd say the level of detail is Square's debilitating OCD used for good. The armor bothers resembling armor, it sticks to two colors, and the Batman Beyond logo of a visor is strikingly memorable. If it tried to tell a story, though, then there'd be a problem.
"Bruce Wayne, a Knight of Gotham, experiences a vision brought on by the mysterious force of Chaos known only as the Clown Prince. He sees a future in which all souls are trapped in the dimension of insanity scientists call A.R.K.H.A.M. Unless he can defeat the Fears led by the Scarecrow--what do you mean this sounds like nonsense? No, shut up, though. You're just not deep enough to understand TRUE DARKNESS."
Is there any way to block any videos and articles from Jim from showing up? All he does is complain... about everything.... all the time.... without ever stopping. And it's never legit; it's just whining and bitching from someone who has nothing better to do.
Give the money to Yoko Taro
Give Drakenguard better localisation
And you still won't make back your money but at least we'll have the good weird games.
Give Drakenguard better localisation
And you still won't make back your money but at least we'll have the good weird games.
Hmmm, I thought it might have been bravely default from trying to decipher the other comments but that doesn't seem to be the game. Could anyone chime in? Id love to know what game footage is shown in the jimquistion video involving squares batman remake. The gameplay footage starts about 1 min 55 seconds into the video, then shows around 3 small views of gameplay/cutscene of this particular game. Dying to know. thanks
One thing I love about this episode is that it's a games company doing games wrong. Not a company screwing over consumers with bad business practices or corruption, just a company badly designing games. Isn't that the best problem to have in a video game industry?