Jimquisition: Copyright War

[furai47]

How is what I said a red herring?

Because I was specifically adressing walkthroughs and LPs that don't have permission from the copyright holder.

Angy Joe had 60 videos taken down for copy right claims and GhostRobo had over 110+ videos taken down.Most of the claims were made by bogus companies or companies that aren't related to games at all.And Youtube has done jack shit about any of it.

I'd imagine a large percentage of those "bogus" companies were legal firms that developers and publishers hired to to the grunt work for them. Legal firms that could end up suing both the uploader and Youtube for copyright infringement.

Notwithstanding, here's the million dollar question:

Did Angry Joe have a permission for each and every piece of copyrighted material in those 60 videos? Did GhostRobo do the same for those 110+ videos?

 

[furai47]

Yes they did,Joe even made several videos stating that his videos were alright with the publishers/developers.Since both belong to networks they are also protected from having their content flagged by copyright claims.

Well then the only thing I can see that's keeping them from getting their videos back is that Youtube is afraid of being sued. That or they don't care, either way the outcome is the same.
It's not like they don't have alternative ways of uploading content though, right?

Here's my question:what gives Youtube the right to allow other people to use Angry Joe's,Ghost Robo's and a bunch of other popular youtuber's footage while pocketing all of the money?

You're going to have to give me examples of that. And please be specific. I'm going to bed which should give you plenty of time.

 

[Something Amyss]

The first time I heard about Bieber was not by hearing his songs, but hearing people complain about him. ;p

The weird thing is, I probably heard him before I heard people complaining, but I cannot for the life of me remember. I've ALWAYS found Bieber's greatest sin to be how utterly forgettable he is to me. I mean, I get that he's promarily popular as a heartthrob and probably also hated as a heartthrob, but the only song I even partially remember is that Mistletoe one, because I heard it and started laughing. When my friends looked at me weird....

Well, I started singing Nickelback's "Photograph" over it.

....And I'm a touch ashamed how much of that song I can remember. But that kind of helps my point. I dislike Nickelback and I remember their lyrics because of the negative association. And I love Queen and remember their lyrics because of positive association. Sometimes a song is funny, and I remember it less because of the musical or lyrical quality, and more because something about it amuses me. Hell, if Aerosmith didn't have so much juvenile wordplay in their songs I might not have remembered them in my formative years. And Bieber? He's too bland.

I sort of feel that must be the case with PewDiePie, to bring this back home. I might actually go watch one of his videos to remind me. I remember not being a fan, but the reason is a blank that usually means "Bieber." or similar.

Also: I too watch Angry Joe.

Yeah, his "personality" can be grating at times. Plus, I do kind of like the guy, so when he actually gets "mad"[sub][sub]for serious, not just for the show, or a review.[/sub][/sub] I just get a bit sad for him.
Like with the YouTube business stuff right now.

But besides that, he gives pretty in-depth reviews, and that's really what ya want in a review. Detail.

I appreciate him when he gets mad, and I almost feel bad because it's the only time I routinely like his videos. The rest of the time he comes off as fake and plasticky. I mean, I do appreciate when he shows what's wrong with a game, but most of the time, he comes off as rather insincere.

And again, one of the things I like most about him is what's getting him in trouble right now, because people are flagging him or he's being flagged automatically for using gameplay clips. And while people might complain about LPers, Joe's reviews definitely should be far game.

And if I might turn more germane for a moment, I think this scattershot approach should be punishable. I doubt it will be, but it should be. Abuse of the system should carry with it some strike setup like the penalties for infringement in the first place, where people who just make claims over and over with no basis lose their privileges.

May you have a good day. =w= b (<- Thumbs up face)

Have a Lucky Day

 

[Therumancer]

Well, to be honest Jim you seem to be a pretty big fish as far as this arena goes. A lot of people working on a smaller scale do have to worry about their available platforms drying up. Sure, it can be argued that if Youtube chases people off by following the rules and laws set down, the independent coverage will go somewhere else, but that will only last until the same problems follow them there. Eventually you'll probably wind up with a situation where for most micro reviewers and game commentators and such it will be nearly impossible to be on a major platform.

Truthfully I suspect a big part of the problem (as I mentioned in some other posts) is simply that game companies have come to realize exactly how much power the independent circuit has when viewed cumulatively. I look at things like the whole "Aliens: Colonial Marines" thing where early release press footage was shown in order to prove Gearbox a bunch of liars (something to which Jimquisition contributed heavily) as being the kind of move that probably scared the game companies out of relative complacency. That and of course companies like EA getting named worst company in America multiple times running, the reputation of EA not being helped by the generally bad publicity thrown around by the independent circuit, many of which were themselves highly dependent on material held by the very publishers they were badmouthing to help run the shows that were the source of their power and platform to begin with.

This is a bad thing, but honestly I don't see a lot that can be done about it in a practical sense, and for every big fish that isn't afraid or intimidated, I think we're going to see a dozen or more pretty much chewed up and spit out by this kind of thing if it manages to stick this time.

 

[Therumancer]

How is what I said a red herring?

Because I was specifically adressing walkthroughs and LPs that don't have permission from the copyright holder.

Angy Joe had 60 videos taken down for copy right claims and GhostRobo had over 110+ videos taken down.Most of the claims were made by bogus companies or companies that aren't related to games at all.And Youtube has done jack shit about any of it.

I'd imagine a large percentage of those "bogus" companies were legal firms that developers and publishers hired to to the grunt work for them. Legal firms that could end up suing both the uploader and Youtube for copyright infringement.

Notwithstanding, here's the million dollar question:

Did Angry Joe have a permission for each and every piece of copyrighted material in those 60 videos? Did GhostRobo do the same for those 110+ videos?

Well, as I understand things a lot of what they did was covered under "fair use" and by the fact that a lot of the material used was presented to be used publically by the companies to begin with. The big problem of course is that "fair use" is under fire. Not to mention that big platforms like Youtube are dependent on advertising from major corporations, and they can't say choose to selectively snub video game publishers for being jerks, without raising concerns from other companies about how Youtube might treat them. As a result it has to side with it's business interests and what's going to keep the money rolling in, as opposed to it's users and content producers. Not to mention that things could get complicated if Youtube itself was ever found complicit in copyright violations by refusing to take action.

That said I think part of the reason why things have gone so crazy is that Youtube is acting largely off of the accusations being made, rather than requiring every specific claim to be vetted or aimed at particular pieces of content, which should be the case before a video is taken down or disabled. Youtube is pretty much playing too nice with the corporate interests. Sure, it can be argued that in say 110 videos someone like this might have used copyrighted footage they weren't supposed to put up. However given the release of promotional footage and such, the guys making the accusation should be forced to specify where and when each specific violation occurred, with the person putting up the video being able to make a defense before any administrative action is taken. It seems likely that what your seeing is a bunch of proxy companies taking a shotgun approach and saying "ban these videos for showing scenes of the video games made by our client" when they may or may not have the right to do that if the material was knowingly released into the public domain by the companies to begin with.

It's a big mess, and as sad as I am to say it, I kind of expect the corporations to win this one. I don't want them to, but they do seem to be holding all the cards, and simply put the very size of the platforms being targeted is what makes them vulnerable.

 

[Eve Charm]

No they don't.This is why the current copyright laws are so broken because anyone can claim something is their content on Youtube.Would you be saying the same thing if for every time you drove a car Ford or any other car manufacturer gets a cut of your earnings because you are using their car to get to work?

No because a car is a product and not a license and your not infringing anyone's copyrights by using a product as intended or personal use. You'd only start to break the grounds of copyright if you bought a bunch of a product modified it then started to sell it if you didn't have permission. Think like mod consoles.

This argument again?Last time I checked you need a driver's license in order to purchase a car,with your logic that means the car manufacturer gets a cut of any money you earn while using their car.

Did you really just compare a Driver's license to a Product license??? And NO you don't need a driver's license to purchase a car anyway, you need one to register it in some places.

Back on topics youtube basically as to act off of accusations, every hour a good 70 + hours of footage is being uploaded to youtube, No human or group of humans could ever keep up, That's why it's all machine content ID matching.

The other monkey wrench in the system right now and the major reason this really is going down is Music. The Developers only license the music for a set amount of time, After that right and everything go back to who made or owns the music. So simple terms if you played guitar hero or rock band on a stream, and all those licenses for the music expired, they own the music even if you own the game that plays the music.

 

[furai47]

Well, as I understand things a lot of what they did was covered under "fair use" and by the fact that a lot of the material used was presented to be used publically by the companies to begin with. The big problem of course is that "fair use" is under fire. Not to mention that big platforms like Youtube are dependent on advertising from major corporations, and they can't say choose to selectively snub video game publishers for being jerks, without raising concerns from other companies about how Youtube might treat them. As a result it has to side with it's business interests and what's going to keep the money rolling in, as opposed to it's users and content producers. Not to mention that things could get complicated if Youtube itself was ever found complicit in copyright violations by refusing to take action.

Exactly. The only issue I have with this paragraph is that "fair use" isn't relevant on Youtube. They have their own rules regarding these things, their own "fair use" as it were.

That said I think part of the reason why things have gone so crazy is that Youtube is acting largely off of the accusations being made, rather than requiring every specific claim to be vetted or aimed at particular pieces of content, which should be the case before a video is taken down or disabled. Youtube is pretty much playing too nice with the corporate interests. Sure, it can be argued that in say 110 videos someone like this might have used copyrighted footage they weren't supposed to put up. However given the release of promotional footage and such, the guys making the accusation should be forced to specify where and when each specific violation occurred, with the person putting up the video being able to make a defense before any administrative action is taken. It seems likely that what your seeing is a bunch of proxy companies taking a shotgun approach and saying "ban these videos for showing scenes of the video games made by our client" when they may or may not have the right to do that if the material was knowingly released into the public domain by the companies to begin with.

Cor blimey, that's an excellent suggestion. I know Youtube isn't going to implement it (have they ever enacted a user generated change before?) but if they had it would probably solve pretty much all of the copyright crusades. Maybe modify it so that once the specific claim has been made the video is taken down immediately so it's a bit easier for Youtube and the companies to swallow and that's it. Baby steps.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I appreciate him when he gets mad, and I almost feel bad because it's the only time I routinely like his videos. The rest of the time he comes off as fake and plasticky. I mean, I do appreciate when he shows what's wrong with a game, but most of the time, he comes off as rather insincere.

It's always easier to come across as sincere talking about something you hate, than something you like.
Especially on the internet...

But Angry Joe's biggest problem, is that he's being cheesy most of the time he's happy with something, and it detracts from what he's saying. Even when he's being sincere.

The way I can (usually) tell when he's being sincere when giving praise, is when he actually backs his claims up with demonstrations. That, more than anything, elevates his videos above the vast majority of "professional" game critics out there who gloss over all manner of things (including here on The Escapist, but I'm going to hold my tongue on what I think beyond that. At least on these forums.)

And if I might turn more germane for a moment, I think this scattershot approach should be punishable. I doubt it will be, but it should be. Abuse of the system should carry with it some strike setup like the penalties for infringement in the first place, where people who just make claims over and over with no basis lose their privileges.

Damn right it should be punishable, but it won't.

Fair Use won't be upheld at all (even where valid) unless someone takes legal action against Google.
Which just isn't happening, and would be highly unlikely to succeed anyway.

 

[rbstewart7263]

is there a petition against this because if so Id like to sign it? If not where would you make such a thing?

 

[Spud of Doom]

I think you might be a bit off the mark here with the Capcom hate for once, Jim. They have made posts on their twitter asserting that they have not been intentionally making claims, and are encouraging people to dispute Content ID attacks on their videos.

https://twitter.com/Capcom_Unity/status/410559475959885824
https://twitter.com/Capcom_Unity/status/410824748021448705

 

[Thanatos2k]

Youtube betrayed every single one of its users the moment it instituted systems that automatically flag content. It was bad enough that companies previously would flag everything in sight erroneously or not and let the users sort it out by having to appeal.

An algorithm will NEVER be able to determine whether content is legal through Fair Use, because programmatically it will look identical to copyrighted content. Only a human with a brain will be able to tell otherwise. Youtube has instituted an absolutely disgusting practice, but what else is new? The site is rapidly going down the tubes thanks to their Google+ idiocy.

 

[furai47]

...An algorithm will NEVER be able to determine whether content is legal through Fair Use...

Fair Use isn't relevant on Youtube. It would really help if you've actually read both Fair Use and Youtube's guidlines before stepping on your soapbox.

...Only a human with a brain will be able to tell otherwise...

OK, so it's fair to say you'll be first in line when Youtube starts hiring people to watch each and every single uploaded video and carefully inspect it for possible copyright infringement? You may also want to recruit some of your friends to do so because Youtube has about 100 hours of content uploaded to it's servers EVERY MINUTE.
I hope you can imagine why they've decided to make the process automated. Asking actual people to do a job like that is out of touch with reality.

...Youtube has instituted an absolutely disgusting practice, but what else is new?...

What's disgusting to me is that people who have no bloody clue about the legal or practical matters of what's being discussed are the ones trying to use such big words. Listen, if you're coming here after your favourite Let's Player or online critic uploaded an angry video and you haven't put in the effort to even READ the terms then shut up and let the adults talk.

If my assumption is not true and you did something more than simply follow someone else's opinion then I must politely apologise.
You sure as hell don't act like you did though.

 

[Thanatos2k]

...An algorithm will NEVER be able to determine whether content is legal through Fair Use...

Fair Use isn't relevant on Youtube. It would really help if you've actually read both Fair Use and Youtube's guidlines before stepping on your soapbox.

What are you going on about? Using copyrighted materials for reviews, parody, or transformative works is absolutely covered under fair use, and that's what most of these videos are doing.

...Only a human with a brain will be able to tell otherwise...

OK, so it's fair to say you'll be first in line when Youtube starts hiring people to watch each and every single uploaded video and carefully inspect it for possible copyright infringement? You may also want to recruit some of your friends to do so because Youtube has about 100 hours of content uploaded to it's servers EVERY MINUTE.
I hope you can imagine why they've decided to make the process automated. Asking actual people to do a job like that is out of touch with reality.

Which is EXACTLY why automated systems don't work, and copyright claims MUST be done reactively. Youtube should not be policing the content of their site, similar to how ISPs don't police content that flows through their pipes. If someone uploads something illegal to Youtube and someone flags it as such Youtube should absolutely check it out and take it down. If someone says "We should be getting the revenue from videos that use our stuff" they need to give Youtube the list of videos actually infringing, not Youtube saying "Oh, here's a list our robot drew up, we'll automatically screw all those users for you and let them sort out the mess!" It is crystal clear automated approaches don't work, and the false positives are doing far more damage than any videos correctly flagged were before.

They don't do this because they caved to the big copyright holders threatening them, that's all. They cried about how they didn't want to have to put in the effort to find actual misuses of their copyrighted stuff, so Google better do it for them or they'll sue. Google used to fight in court over stuff like this, now they take the lazy and easy way out and let themselves be pushed around while they continue to silently keep the cash from the advertising revenue of all the videos that are now suddenly "illegal."

 

[furai47]

What are you going on about? Using copyrighted materials for reviews, parody, or transformative works is absolutely covered under fair use, and that's what most of these videos are doing.

I've had to explain this on page 7, read it. Here's the link ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.836410-Jimquisition-Copyright-War?page=7#20503870 )

...Youtube should not be policing the content of their site, similar to how ISPs don't police content that flows through their pipes....

I haven't heard of an ISP being sued when a user did something illegal using their service. I have seen attemps to make them responsible but they've all failed. Youtube however has been sued when users uploaded illegal content. Therefore, since they can be held accountable they absolutely have the right to "police their content".

...If someone uploads something illegal to Youtube and someone flags it as such Youtube should absolutely check it out and take it down. If someone says "We should be getting the revenue from videos that use our stuff" they need to give Youtube the list of videos actually infringing, not Youtube saying "Oh, here's a list our robot drew up, we'll automatically screw all those users for you and let them sort out the mess!" It is crystal clear automated approaches don't work, and the false positives are doing far more damage than any videos correctly flagged were before.

Where are you going to find people to do that job though? There's too much content to do it both manually and cost-effectively. We're talking thousands of people being paid thousands of man-hours to watch videos back to back trying to find copyrighted material when a strike is filed. How on Earth do you imagine this being financially viable? Are the users going to fund this system?
Automated systems are there for a reason and you really can't appreciate their usefulness until you work with them. For every video that is falsely flagged there are thousands that are legit infringements. If it were the other way 'round the system would be ditched because again, it would be a money waster.
I've aldo conceded to a possible solution earlier on this very page by the way. Read some of the thread sometime.

They don't do this because they caved to the big copyright holders threatening them, that's all. They cried about how they didn't want to have to put in the effort to find actual misuses of their copyrighted stuff, so Google better do it for them or they'll sue.

And as is the case with most of the companies that have the big buck to follow through, that's enough reason to comply.

 

[Thanatos2k]

What are you going on about? Using copyrighted materials for reviews, parody, or transformative works is absolutely covered under fair use, and that's what most of these videos are doing.

I've had to explain this on page 7, read it. Here's the link ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.836410-Jimquisition-Copyright-War?page=7#20503870 )

...Youtube should not be policing the content of their site, similar to how ISPs don't police content that flows through their pipes....

I haven't heard of an ISP being sued when a user did something illegal using their service. I have seen attemps to make them responsible but they've all failed. Youtube however has been sued when users uploaded illegal content. Therefore, since they can be held accountable they absolutely have the right to "police their content".

And that's the problem - Google should have fought this all the way through. But they didn't. Once they got sued they caved, they caved and said "Ok, stop suing us and we'll do something about it" rather than "Look, your problem is with the users. We just host stuff they upload. Sue them instead." like the ISPs did.

Where are you going to find people to do that job though? There's too much content to do it both manually and cost-effectively. We're talking thousands of people being paid thousands of man-hours to watch videos back to back trying to find copyrighted material when a strike is filed. How on Earth do you imagine this being financially viable? Are the users going to fund this system?
Automated systems are there for a reason and you really can't appreciate their usefulness until you work with them. For every video that is falsely flagged there are thousands that are legit infringements. If it were the other way 'round the system would be ditched because again, it would be a money waster.
I've aldo conceded to a possible solution earlier on this very page by the way. Read some of the thread sometime.

Youtube shouldn't be doing it. The users shouldn't be doing it. It should be on the onus of the copyright holder to find and send notices against infringing copyright. And if that is not "financially viable" then too bad for them.

It doesn't matter if there are 100 to 1 hit vs miss with the automated system - that 1 miss is more damaging than the 100 videos would have been if left alone.

 

[Atmos Duality]

They don't do this because they caved to the big copyright holders threatening them, that's all. They cried about how they didn't want to have to put in the effort to find actual misuses of their copyrighted stuff, so Google better do it for them or they'll sue.

And as is the case with most of the companies that have the big buck to follow through, that's enough reason to comply.

That's unfortunately the truth of the matter.
These companies can get away with breaking* the same copyright law they love to invoke, because of the cost of enforcement and appeal. It's much higher for the average user to sustain than the big media.

(*last I checked, Fair Use is in fact part of copyright law, and the law comes ahead of anything in any corporate-written EULA)

In practice, it's a double standard, and part of why I don't feel terribly sympathetic for their cause.

 

[Habballah]

Oh jimmy
your right you don't need them. I would watch your shit regardless.
but there's going to be some causality jim.

and u tube doesn't have the resources to run every video through a fine filter.
U tube was always a pirates den of thieves.

it was main stream 4 chan.
...you know that part where i go hold up i went to far,
no u tube has always been this wild west as you put it,

where people got away with way, way, way to much. there are ways to use fair use those video's weren't using.

and I'd be glad to tell you in pm,
but revealing that topic in public would get me trolled.

legions of hasbro fans have worked free use down to a fine science.
Easily.
if you see this feel free to ask.

 

[furai47]

And that's the problem - Google should have fought this all the way through. But they didn't. Once they got sued they caved, they caved and said "Ok, stop suing us and we'll do something about it" rather than "Look, your problem is with the users. We just host stuff they upload. Sue them instead." like the ISPs did.

1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10...okay.

I was hoping you'd get the implication of my previous post but no matter. ISPs CAN NOT BE SUED for their users' illegal conduct. There is no law that allows this currently that I am aware of. As I've pointed out in my previous post, some interest groups are pushing for such laws to be passed but none were succesful as of yet.
Youtube and Google CAN BE SUED for their users' illegal conduct. There are laws that allow that.

There is not comparison here. It's not that ISPs have massive balls of carbotanium, it's that they know full well they can't be sued.

Youtube shouldn't be doing it. The users shouldn't be doing it. It should be on the onus of the copyright holder to find and send notices against infringing copyright. And if that is not "financially viable" then too bad for them.

It doesn't matter if there are 100 to 1 hit vs miss with the automated system - that 1 miss is more damaging than the 100 videos would have been if left alone.

This going to be a bit of a hyperbole, but it's necessary for you to understand what you're up against.

You're saying copyright holders should find the offending videos and send notices. Alright, I can see that appeasing the users.
Now, give me (or rather them) a reason to do so. Also please keep in mind the astronomical figures of money you've cost them by removing the automated process and forced them to employ thousands of people to watch videos back to back. Think of all the medical and psychological complications a person could face when they have a job of sitting in a chair for 8 hours and watching mostly cat videos every single day and people playing Happy Wheels.

Now find a reason that isn't "you have to do it, deal with it, if you can't too bad for you you still have to I wanna watch my LPs" because I don't know if you're aware but in the corporate world that doesn't fly. Backing every decision are hours upon hours of meetings and charts and reports and, as is the case in the western world, money. And what you're proposing is known in the business world colloquially as "suicide".