Jimquisition: Free To Wait

[Atmos Duality]

Lots of valid points in the non-quoted parts, but I wanted to comment on this in particular since it's something we've had in mind from day 1. Our game is very cheap to operate when it comes to servers and infrastructure. I did not want to build one of those house of cards that needs 20 devs just to keep the servers up. We are now at 9 devs and that's with actively expanding the game. We plan to support user generated maps. Maintaining the game probably would need 2 devs.

Well, sounds like you have a longer term game established and it seems your heart is in the right place.
Best of luck.

 

[Vedli]

Which only proves my point doesn't it? By surrendering the high ground and opening with a insult/petulant comment I undermined my own argument. The point I will admit was a bit clumsily delivered. And this isn't your drunk uncle here. This a man who has been a champion for the mobile market in the past who has seen a favorite property from the past ruined in order to make a quick buck. You can see why this would leave Jim very angry? If you disagree then thats fine but (if you would excuse another clumsy analogy) you don't get to be the good guy just for fighting the bad guy, not if you use his same methods (not calling Jim a bad guy or anything, calm down everyone).

So because one of Jim's favorite IPs has been fucked over he gets to omit examples to the contrary and disregard an entire payment model for video games? If that's true than I'll go ahead and say that Rockstar is a shit company filled with shit people who make shit games with shit writing because Max Payne 3 was a terrible successor to MP1&2.

Also, you were the first person to bring morality into this. I claimed no moral high ground, so please don't say I did unless you want this to get nasty (that wasn't really intended to be a threat, that kind of false moral shaming just pisses me off really easily).

Okay Kid, I was just trying to help you make a better argument since I thought you had a good one and maybe understand why Jim was so angry and how anger can lead to mistakes because thats how emotions work, when you get angry about something you will often omit things if you are attacking something, not because of some sinister agenda but just because your not thinking clearly. Thats why I brought up "morality" as you put it. If Jim is all angry your arguements are more compelling if you keep calm and don't resort to petty comebacks. Although yes, telling someone to shut up is not exactly the worse thing you could of done still it's not the best counter point in the world unlike your later one with examples of F2W done well but hey your nearly 15 years old you know everything (I know I was like that). And yes that last part was a joke

sigh, teenagers (I look forward to your future angry response).

 

[Something Amyss]

So does this mean people are going to stop claiming Jim's okay with this particular model in Free 2 Play games, or amI still going to have to argue this point?

 

[CarbonJames]

So does this mean people are going to stop claiming Jim's okay with this particular model in Free 2 Play games, or amI still going to have to argue this point?

But Jim in the context of this video is a character, it's not the real human Jim that must know there's good and bad implementations of F2P.

It's a shame that doing videos like this just helps promote them (even bad press is good press) where the real way to affect change or damage EA is to just boycott and ignore them. Find the good examples, praise them.

But that's not as funny. (I love Jim's character myself, it's only reflecting on this later that I come to this conclusion)

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

false

dota 2 and TF2 have no such currencies

in path of exile and loadout premium currency is only used for cosmetics

in league of legends you can buy all champions without using the premium currency and Lord of the Rings Online allows you to earn premium currency for free



and those are only the ones ive played



from my lmited knowledge, it seems that mobile games and facebook games are the most guilty of abusing the F2P model

That's still 2 types of currency. One of these currency you have to purchase. And there are items or products that can only be obtained with that purchased currency. Yes, some games do allow you to earn the purchased currency for "free" in game, but at a much lower rate than buying directly. Marvel puzzle quest on Steam does that. Other games let you earn them by clicking ads,doing surveys, subscribing to newsletters, etc. Not saying those games are evil because of it, just that I hate that system of play. Forced waits to test your resolve to no purchase a speed up or unlock that new shiny mcguffin. It seems stupid to call a game free to play when microtransactions are pretty blatant.Again, not calling the games stupid, but the system employed.

none of the games i mentioned use that, each of those games either offer all gameplay content for free or a huge amount of it for free

just play any of those games before reaching any conclusion, they are free and they are good, TF2 is my favorite online FPS of all time, Loadout is an enjoyable online shooter, Path of Exile is one of the best ARPGs avaliable at the moment, i enjoyed LoL quite a bit, i hate Dota 2 and its community but i seem to be a minority there, and in my limited experienced with MMORPGs, Lord of the Rings Online wasnt half bad

 

[Something Amyss]

But Jim in the context of this video is a character, it's not the real human Jim that must know there's good and bad implementations of F2P.

The previous people talking about this were using a prior Jimquisition to justify it, so it's in-character vs in-character.

 

[mindfaQ]

Not sure if this has been posted here already, but it is relevant to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RHC-uGDbu7s
basically EA uses every bad tactic in the book and it illustrates the basics of microtransations in general.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Is this really a scam? It not like you can't see what it is and it's sneakily taking money from your account. If people are buying it they are getting something out of it personally or they are just stupid. Either way how much money they spend on these things is on their heads and I don't see why we should care.

You should care because as long as incredibly stupid people buy into this crap then more of this crap will continue to be made. And in the worst case scenario it'll come to a point where you'll have no choice but to buy into it yourself because it'll be the only thing available. That's why.

That strikes me as an issue with gamers/magpies with money.

"Well, I have to play this because it's the only thing coming out."

So the Rapture happened and everything gaming-related from the Amiga to the Xbox360 got called home to heaven. No? Well, then there are enough games out there that you will ALWAYS have the choice not to buy into it. The only reason that gamers would have to buy into it is because of decades of being conditioned to buy the latest thing as soon as it comes out. Only "incredibly stupid people" would feel that they have no choice but to buy into something that they don't want to.

Even if the Video Game Rapture happens and it sucks everything but free-to-wait games up to heaven...

Y'know, there are other things to do with your life.

Ok let me rephrase that. In the worst case scenario you'd have no choice but to buy into Free to Wait if you wanted to play anything new.

In which case, you don't.

That's the point that I'm making. We, as a consumer base, have the option to not buy into this. If that's the only thing new coming out, then play some of the games that you missed this generation (If you can say that you have played every good game on PC/Wii/PS3/360 that came out during this generation, then you REALLY need to get some sun.) and wait out that phase of game development.

I try not to bring this up a lot but I am skipping this console generation entirely. Despite this, I'm still going to have new experiences just because of the sheer number of games that I've never finished. I have games that go all the way back to the NES that I haven't finished. Last year, I thoroughly beat Rogue Galaxy (a PS2 game) for the first time. Currently, I'm playing through Sacrifice (2000 PC game) and beating all the campaigns for the first time.

Yes, maybe some developer/publishers will collapse if gamers dust off their older consoles rather than buy games they hate. Hell, we might have an even worse replay of the 1983 crash where developers/publishers crash, stores close, sites shut down, and Jim Sterling makes a video entitled "Please start buying Buy-To-Wait games. I need this job."

But meaningful change demands sacrifice. If that's what it would take to steer gaming back to a more consumer-friendly, then so be it. The power is in the hands of the consumers. We just tell ourselves that it's not because it's harder to make changes in our "I gotta have all the shinies" attitude than it is to just kvetch about the situation.


This video applies to both sides of the equation. On the publisher/developer side, this is the mentality of the people trying to pressure you into buying worthless swampland.

But it also applies to gamers. To paraphrase:

If you're willing to wield the power, it's yours. If you're not, I have no sympathy for you.

It doesn't matter what you think other people will do. That's just an excuse to avoid action.

It doesn't matter what the developer/publishers are going to do. They're the ones trying to convince you to buy into this.

All that matters is what you can do about the situation. If you don't like the direction that the industry is going, stop buying their product. It's that simple.

Ah, but you weren't listening. I didn't say that that's what's happening now. I said that that would be the worst case scenario of what could happen if idiots kept buying into this Free to Wait bullshit.
And you can talk all you want about voting with your wallet and whatever, but the fact of the matter is as long as enough people are buying it it's not going to go away and could possibly get worse. Am I going to buy into this Free to Wait? Fuck no! But are significant numbers of other people? I would bet money on that.
Also do you really have enough faith in your fellow gamers to sacrifice their entertainment for the sake of change? 'Cause I certainly do not.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Also do you really have enough faith in your fellow gamers to sacrifice their entertainment for the sake of change? 'Cause I certainly do not.

Sorry to butt in here, but I get the feeling that when folks talk about another "Crash", they're thinking of the moment when shit like this goes too far and becomes too common for even the idiots to sustain it.

While a total crash won't occur (it can't; not while there's good alternatives across the market as a whole), there is a "bubble" growing for the specific part of the market that pulls this shit. The worst offender was Zynga, and while they enjoyed entirely too much profit for their shitty grinders at the hands of casual idiots, eventually they too fell.

Some day, these "magpie gamers" will, either through chance or word of mouth, encounter a game that's so much better than this crap that it'll blow their mind. And when that day comes, the bubble will pop, and that fickle ***** named "relevancy" will move on.

Until that day comes, those of us who know better will have to sit here and sigh.
(as long as there are good games available anyway)

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

The worst part is that there are parents who will feed their children's addiction to games microtransaction wagons without much thought. Sure the five bucks a day to keep your kid happy seems insignificant during the moment but over time you'll end up spending far more than you would for a real handheld system and half a dozen games.

Mic drop indeed sir. Mic drop indeed.

[sup][sup]I'm not saying there are no good mobile games... It's just that so many of them use this model that I personally don't take it seriously as a platform anymore.[/sup][/sup]

 

[Stealth]

this video is decent.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Also do you really have enough faith in your fellow gamers to sacrifice their entertainment for the sake of change? 'Cause I certainly do not.

Sorry to butt in here, but I get the feeling that when folks talk about another "Crash", they're thinking of the moment when shit like this goes too far and becomes too common for even the idiots to sustain it.

While a total crash won't occur (it can't; not while there's good alternatives across the market as a whole), there is a "bubble" growing for the specific part of the market that pulls this shit. The worst offender was Zynga, and while they enjoyed entirely too much profit for their shitty grinders at the hands of casual idiots, eventually they too fell.

Some day, these "magpie gamers" will, either through chance or word of mouth, encounter a game that's so much better than this crap that it'll blow their mind. And when that day comes, the bubble will pop, and that fickle ***** named "relevancy" will move on.

Until that day comes, those of us who know better will have to sit here and sigh.
(as long as there are good games available anyway)

I didn't say anything about a crash, although at this stage one would be desirable. It was thepyrethatburns that mentioned the crash of '83.
No my biggest fear when it comes to gaming is that there are more than enough "magpie gamers," as you call them, to show the bean counters that shit like Free to Wait is actually sustainable and thus shit like that will become the norm. I don't want to see that happen The industry has already devolved into a dilapidated mess that I barely want to have anything to do with and I don't want to see it get worse.

 

[Nazulu]

It doesn't look professional when you just swear up a storm. I know it's to make your stance clear, but I think it only works when it's funny in some way, otherwise it's usually obnoxious.

However, I agree with you Jim. This is a different type of swindling. Paying for fluff that doesn't improve anything and quickly runs out, including that there are 10 times better games out there. These developers/publishers can lick the insides of my *** **** ***** ***.

 

[kuolonen]

Were that we lived in a world of infinite resources that would be true. But alas this is not so, and when this pay to win scenario bubble bursts, as people like Jim keep telling it will, it will hurt the entire industry. If you see a person standing next to you using 100 tons of TNT as bonfire, will you just say: "oh well, that wont affect me"?

Also money siphoned out of our misguided gamer brothers/sisters will not only bloat the bubble to come, but will also mean less money on games you too would probably like to see succeeding. Also free publicity really only can be good so far, I don't think that EA likes the "free publicity" of having been voted worst company in america for example.

I disagree. Yes, when the bubble explodes it will take down many studios and many people will lose their jobs. But in the end it will only affect the big budget games, or the bloated mobile market. Don't forget, the games market had already one crisis.
Imagine: A indy studio creates a Dungeon Keeper clone (like i said in my first post) and every site/reviewer that tore the mobile Keeper game a new one tells the fans about it. Not as a ad or for money, just to show the gamers a good example of how to bring a PC game to a mobile device.

Fair enough. Personally I think your prediction is way too optimistic. It's not like I will cry myself to sleep if my assumption of the wholesale collapse of industry will not come true. In fact I would prefer to be wrong.

 

[lukesparow]

While the people making these games are indeed pigs, the people supporting it are even worse!
Who in the right mind would support a game that abuses this model?

 

[WarpZone]

While the people making these games are indeed pigs, the people supporting it are even worse!
Who in the right mind would support a game that abuses this model?

People with more money than brains. We're in a global recession right now, remember? If you overcharge rich people and scare away normal people, you come out ahead. Or at least that's the prevailing wisdom among the suits, hacks, pimps and patent trolls.

Is anyone who's not an asshole making any money? If so, it'd be nice to hear about that, just for a change.

 

[klaynexas3]

Holy shit, these free games are making me not play them. That's just the WORST! When you don't spend money to play a game that's really not all that immersive, and you don't get to play it all the time. I mean MY GOD. And then they take it to "AAA" games where they're like, "Hey, if you give us money we'll give you better stuff. You don't really need it, but it makes things go faster." As gamers, we can't be expected to THINK for ourselves or have any sort of consumer instincts or even have some fucking patience. We NEED gratification instantly! Otherwise we'd be building up an actual life skill or bettering ourselves somehow. Clearly the prominence of cheap little one off games we DON'T HAVE TO PAY A DIME FOR is the worst thing to happen to everyone. Even worse, it's infecting other media now. Did you know I have to wait a WHOLE WEEK for a new Walking Dead show? And I PAY for cable; it's not even free, like these games are.

I mean fuck's sake, Jim, it doesn't help the media perception of gamers as giant children when you're treating them as a bunch of lemmings or Family Guy's James Woods, who can't help but follow the trail of candy to wherever it leads because they have no concept of money or willpower. It's just pathetic now.

Except the difference between having to wait for a TV show and waiting in these little mobile games is this: You can't pay extra to get the TV show early, where as with the mobile game you pay to unlock something you would have gotten over time anyway, and then all that does for you is put you in a place where you have to pay again to unlock a little something else and repeat the process. It gets you no further in any actual gameplay, it just holds it behind a pay wall that you have to pay at every 3 seconds to continue on in the game. It's a shitty model to use in games and makes for shitty games. If we want the media to take us seriously, maybe we should take ourselves seriously first and to do so we need to stand up for ourselves at the times when we perceive something to be outright bullshit.

If you want an accurate comparison from TV to these games, it'd be likened to getting to watch a minute of an episode, and then either have to pay for the next minute of the episode or wait a few hours and do this every time. It's a disgusting business practice that shouldn't be accepted in its current form.

 

[lukesparow]

While the people making these games are indeed pigs, the people supporting it are even worse!
Who in the right mind would support a game that abuses this model?

People with more money than brains. We're in a global recession right now, remember? If you overcharge rich people and scare away normal people, you come out ahead. Or at least that's the prevailing wisdom among the suits, hacks, pimps and patent trolls.

Is anyone who's not an asshole making any money? If so, it'd be nice to hear about that, just for a change.

The folks at Naughty Dog see to be making plenty!

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

I never even knew of dungeon keeper before this mess and I am annoyed, I can't imagine what the fans of the series who took so long to get a sequel must feel. I assume it's something like SE finally giving us a new Chrono Trigger but making it a phone game where you have to buy your way through the time shifts and where every single attack is Gill Toss and you need to buy gill with real money.

 

[Sofus]

It's only going to get worse. I have been against the concet of free to play for almost a dcade now, but the majority of the people I have talked to just don't care.. they assumes that it won't infect normal games.

Just wait a few years and I have no doubt that we will begin to see tripple A games that use some twisted version of the free to play concept. If publishers don't go broke on that, then it's only a matter of time before we have to pay the usual 60 euro just to download free to play games.

Remember the store in Dead Space 3? Imagine if you will, that the devs hadn't added resources for the play to collect. I expect the future of gaming to be alot like that.