Jimquisition: Free To Wait

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
14,334
0
0
thepyrethatburns said:
canadamus_prime said:
thepyrethatburns said:
canadamus_prime said:
DementedSheep said:
Is this really a scam? It not like you can't see what it is and it's sneakily taking money from your account. If people are buying it they are getting something out of it personally or they are just stupid. Either way how much money they spend on these things is on their heads and I don't see why we should care.
You should care because as long as incredibly stupid people buy into this crap then more of this crap will continue to be made. And in the worst case scenario it'll come to a point where you'll have no choice but to buy into it yourself because it'll be the only thing available. That's why.
That strikes me as an issue with gamers/magpies with money.

"Well, I have to play this because it's the only thing coming out."

So the Rapture happened and everything gaming-related from the Amiga to the Xbox360 got called home to heaven. No? Well, then there are enough games out there that you will ALWAYS have the choice not to buy into it. The only reason that gamers would have to buy into it is because of decades of being conditioned to buy the latest thing as soon as it comes out. Only "incredibly stupid people" would feel that they have no choice but to buy into something that they don't want to.

Even if the Video Game Rapture happens and it sucks everything but free-to-wait games up to heaven...

Y'know, there are other things to do with your life.
Ok let me rephrase that. In the worst case scenario you'd have no choice but to buy into Free to Wait if you wanted to play anything new.
In which case, you don't.

That's the point that I'm making. We, as a consumer base, have the option to not buy into this. If that's the only thing new coming out, then play some of the games that you missed this generation (If you can say that you have played every good game on PC/Wii/PS3/360 that came out during this generation, then you REALLY need to get some sun.) and wait out that phase of game development.

I try not to bring this up a lot but I am skipping this console generation entirely. Despite this, I'm still going to have new experiences just because of the sheer number of games that I've never finished. I have games that go all the way back to the NES that I haven't finished. Last year, I thoroughly beat Rogue Galaxy (a PS2 game) for the first time. Currently, I'm playing through Sacrifice (2000 PC game) and beating all the campaigns for the first time.

Yes, maybe some developer/publishers will collapse if gamers dust off their older consoles rather than buy games they hate. Hell, we might have an even worse replay of the 1983 crash where developers/publishers crash, stores close, sites shut down, and Jim Sterling makes a video entitled "Please start buying Buy-To-Wait games. I need this job."

But meaningful change demands sacrifice. If that's what it would take to steer gaming back to a more consumer-friendly, then so be it. The power is in the hands of the consumers. We just tell ourselves that it's not because it's harder to make changes in our "I gotta have all the shinies" attitude than it is to just kvetch about the situation.


This video applies to both sides of the equation. On the publisher/developer side, this is the mentality of the people trying to pressure you into buying worthless swampland.

But it also applies to gamers. To paraphrase:

If you're willing to wield the power, it's yours. If you're not, I have no sympathy for you.

It doesn't matter what you think other people will do. That's just an excuse to avoid action.

It doesn't matter what the developer/publishers are going to do. They're the ones trying to convince you to buy into this.

All that matters is what you can do about the situation. If you don't like the direction that the industry is going, stop buying their product. It's that simple.
Ah, but you weren't listening. I didn't say that that's what's happening now. I said that that would be the worst case scenario of what could happen if idiots kept buying into this Free to Wait bullshit.
And you can talk all you want about voting with your wallet and whatever, but the fact of the matter is as long as enough people are buying it it's not going to go away and could possibly get worse. Am I going to buy into this Free to Wait? Fuck no! But are significant numbers of other people? I would bet money on that.
Also do you really have enough faith in your fellow gamers to sacrifice their entertainment for the sake of change? 'Cause I certainly do not.
 

Atmos Duality

New member
Mar 3, 2010
8,473
0
0
canadamus_prime said:
Also do you really have enough faith in your fellow gamers to sacrifice their entertainment for the sake of change? 'Cause I certainly do not.
Sorry to butt in here, but I get the feeling that when folks talk about another "Crash", they're thinking of the moment when shit like this goes too far and becomes too common for even the idiots to sustain it.

While a total crash won't occur (it can't; not while there's good alternatives across the market as a whole), there is a "bubble" growing for the specific part of the market that pulls this shit. The worst offender was Zynga, and while they enjoyed entirely too much profit for their shitty grinders at the hands of casual idiots, eventually they too fell.

Some day, these "magpie gamers" will, either through chance or word of mouth, encounter a game that's so much better than this crap that it'll blow their mind. And when that day comes, the bubble will pop, and that fickle ***** named "relevancy" will move on.

Until that day comes, those of us who know better will have to sit here and sigh.
(as long as there are good games available anyway)
 

Redlin5_v1legacy

Better Red than Dead
Aug 5, 2009
48,836
0
0
The worst part is that there are parents who will feed their children's addiction to games microtransaction wagons without much thought. Sure the five bucks a day to keep your kid happy seems insignificant during the moment but over time you'll end up spending far more than you would for a real handheld system and half a dozen games.

Mic drop indeed sir. Mic drop indeed.

[sup][sup]I'm not saying there are no good mobile games... It's just that so many of them use this model that I personally don't take it seriously as a platform anymore.[/sup][/sup]
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
14,334
0
0
Atmos Duality said:
canadamus_prime said:
Also do you really have enough faith in your fellow gamers to sacrifice their entertainment for the sake of change? 'Cause I certainly do not.
Sorry to butt in here, but I get the feeling that when folks talk about another "Crash", they're thinking of the moment when shit like this goes too far and becomes too common for even the idiots to sustain it.

While a total crash won't occur (it can't; not while there's good alternatives across the market as a whole), there is a "bubble" growing for the specific part of the market that pulls this shit. The worst offender was Zynga, and while they enjoyed entirely too much profit for their shitty grinders at the hands of casual idiots, eventually they too fell.

Some day, these "magpie gamers" will, either through chance or word of mouth, encounter a game that's so much better than this crap that it'll blow their mind. And when that day comes, the bubble will pop, and that fickle ***** named "relevancy" will move on.

Until that day comes, those of us who know better will have to sit here and sigh.
(as long as there are good games available anyway)
I didn't say anything about a crash, although at this stage one would be desirable. It was thepyrethatburns that mentioned the crash of '83.
No my biggest fear when it comes to gaming is that there are more than enough "magpie gamers," as you call them, to show the bean counters that shit like Free to Wait is actually sustainable and thus shit like that will become the norm. I don't want to see that happen The industry has already devolved into a dilapidated mess that I barely want to have anything to do with and I don't want to see it get worse.
 

Nazulu

They will not take our Fluids
Jun 5, 2008
6,242
0
0
It doesn't look professional when you just swear up a storm. I know it's to make your stance clear, but I think it only works when it's funny in some way, otherwise it's usually obnoxious.

However, I agree with you Jim. This is a different type of swindling. Paying for fluff that doesn't improve anything and quickly runs out, including that there are 10 times better games out there. These developers/publishers can lick the insides of my *** **** ***** ***.
 

kuolonen

New member
Nov 19, 2009
290
0
0
geier said:
kuolonen said:
geier said:
Were that we lived in a world of infinite resources that would be true. But alas this is not so, and when this pay to win scenario bubble bursts, as people like Jim keep telling it will, it will hurt the entire industry. If you see a person standing next to you using 100 tons of TNT as bonfire, will you just say: "oh well, that wont affect me"?

Also money siphoned out of our misguided gamer brothers/sisters will not only bloat the bubble to come, but will also mean less money on games you too would probably like to see succeeding. Also free publicity really only can be good so far, I don't think that EA likes the "free publicity" of having been voted worst company in america for example.
I disagree. Yes, when the bubble explodes it will take down many studios and many people will lose their jobs. But in the end it will only affect the big budget games, or the bloated mobile market. Don't forget, the games market had already one crisis.
Imagine: A indy studio creates a Dungeon Keeper clone (like i said in my first post) and every site/reviewer that tore the mobile Keeper game a new one tells the fans about it. Not as a ad or for money, just to show the gamers a good example of how to bring a PC game to a mobile device.
Fair enough. Personally I think your prediction is way too optimistic. It's not like I will cry myself to sleep if my assumption of the wholesale collapse of industry will not come true. In fact I would prefer to be wrong.
 

lukesparow

New member
Jan 20, 2014
63
0
0
While the people making these games are indeed pigs, the people supporting it are even worse!
Who in the right mind would support a game that abuses this model?
 

WarpZone

New member
Mar 9, 2008
423
0
0
lukesparow said:
While the people making these games are indeed pigs, the people supporting it are even worse!
Who in the right mind would support a game that abuses this model?
People with more money than brains. We're in a global recession right now, remember? If you overcharge rich people and scare away normal people, you come out ahead. Or at least that's the prevailing wisdom among the suits, hacks, pimps and patent trolls.

Is anyone who's not an asshole making any money? If so, it'd be nice to hear about that, just for a change.
 

klaynexas3

My shoes hurt
Dec 30, 2009
1,525
0
0
irishda said:
Holy shit, these free games are making me not play them. That's just the WORST! When you don't spend money to play a game that's really not all that immersive, and you don't get to play it all the time. I mean MY GOD. And then they take it to "AAA" games where they're like, "Hey, if you give us money we'll give you better stuff. You don't really need it, but it makes things go faster." As gamers, we can't be expected to THINK for ourselves or have any sort of consumer instincts or even have some fucking patience. We NEED gratification instantly! Otherwise we'd be building up an actual life skill or bettering ourselves somehow. Clearly the prominence of cheap little one off games we DON'T HAVE TO PAY A DIME FOR is the worst thing to happen to everyone. Even worse, it's infecting other media now. Did you know I have to wait a WHOLE WEEK for a new Walking Dead show? And I PAY for cable; it's not even free, like these games are.

I mean fuck's sake, Jim, it doesn't help the media perception of gamers as giant children when you're treating them as a bunch of lemmings or Family Guy's James Woods, who can't help but follow the trail of candy to wherever it leads because they have no concept of money or willpower. It's just pathetic now.
Except the difference between having to wait for a TV show and waiting in these little mobile games is this: You can't pay extra to get the TV show early, where as with the mobile game you pay to unlock something you would have gotten over time anyway, and then all that does for you is put you in a place where you have to pay again to unlock a little something else and repeat the process. It gets you no further in any actual gameplay, it just holds it behind a pay wall that you have to pay at every 3 seconds to continue on in the game. It's a shitty model to use in games and makes for shitty games. If we want the media to take us seriously, maybe we should take ourselves seriously first and to do so we need to stand up for ourselves at the times when we perceive something to be outright bullshit.

If you want an accurate comparison from TV to these games, it'd be likened to getting to watch a minute of an episode, and then either have to pay for the next minute of the episode or wait a few hours and do this every time. It's a disgusting business practice that shouldn't be accepted in its current form.
 

lukesparow

New member
Jan 20, 2014
63
0
0
WarpZone said:
lukesparow said:
While the people making these games are indeed pigs, the people supporting it are even worse!
Who in the right mind would support a game that abuses this model?
People with more money than brains. We're in a global recession right now, remember? If you overcharge rich people and scare away normal people, you come out ahead. Or at least that's the prevailing wisdom among the suits, hacks, pimps and patent trolls.

Is anyone who's not an asshole making any money? If so, it'd be nice to hear about that, just for a change.
The folks at Naughty Dog see to be making plenty!
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

New member
Aug 28, 2008
4,696
0
0
I never even knew of dungeon keeper before this mess and I am annoyed, I can't imagine what the fans of the series who took so long to get a sequel must feel. I assume it's something like SE finally giving us a new Chrono Trigger but making it a phone game where you have to buy your way through the time shifts and where every single attack is Gill Toss and you need to buy gill with real money.
 

Sofus

New member
Apr 15, 2011
223
0
0
It's only going to get worse. I have been against the concet of free to play for almost a dcade now, but the majority of the people I have talked to just don't care.. they assumes that it won't infect normal games.

Just wait a few years and I have no doubt that we will begin to see tripple A games that use some twisted version of the free to play concept. If publishers don't go broke on that, then it's only a matter of time before we have to pay the usual 60 euro just to download free to play games.

Remember the store in Dead Space 3? Imagine if you will, that the devs hadn't added resources for the play to collect. I expect the future of gaming to be alot like that.
 

TheTinyMan

New member
May 6, 2010
63
0
0
So I've got a pretty unpopular opinion - so far I've been having a lot of fun with the Dungeon Keeper mobile game, and I haven't paid a cent into it. Most of the criticisms I've seen seem completely unfair.

The game doesn't *prevent* anyone from giving it a bad rating. It's *asking* people to give it 5 stars. If someone says "no" to that, they have every freedom to go to the actual store (where they'd have to go to rate any other app) and rate it one star. It's definitely a behavior that skews the ratings, but so is showing a message that says "if you like us please rate us." After all, this way, users that aren't tech-savvy enough to go to the store to rate it but want to rate it badly don't understand the power they have, and users that have that degree of tech-savviness who want to rate it *highly* have an easy way to do so...so that's skewing the ratings a bit more, but I don't think I'd call it dishonest. If you hit "no, I don't think you deserve 5 stars," their response isn't "well fuck off," it's, "tell us why." Now...we ARE talking about EA, so I'm not exactly filled with trust that they'd respond to that feedback well, but it's encouraging to me that they're asking for it.

"Digging one square takes 6 hours." I only started playing this in response to seeing all of the criticism of it, so there might have been balancing patches since most of that criticism was formed...but it takes 3 seconds to dig out most squares. I have two imps, and when I sit down just to dig, the two of them are completing their 3 second timers just a little bit after I'm ready to click on a third dirt square. There are two other types of squares - one that takes 4 hours to dig through, and one that takes 24. The game is perfectly playable without digging through those. Yeah, I have to dig through a bunch to get to some extra resources, but so far I think I'm about 1/3 of the way through the game and I have loads of space left in the area I can clear out quickly. By the way, there are *zero* squares that can't be mined out, I think - and the PC games had several of those. Is a 24 hour dig time really worse than a square you can't dig through at all? Now, I am starting to encounter some pretty hefty building construction times - 6 hours or so. I just don't *do* those tasks unless I'm about to go to work or go to bed. Oh, by the way - divide any "duration" by two if you're actually playing, because you can double your imps' work rate consistently. It has to be refreshed every half hour but it costs you nothing to do so.

Jim has also griped that there is nothing to do during these egregiously long wait times. I didn't run into any moments where I had NOTHING to do until I was a couple of hours into the game (and was facing a 15 minute wait time). Between rearranging my dungeon, buying minions, attacking other dungeons, and buying quickly-built traps, I had plenty to do. I had to keep one imp free to rearrange my dungeon if I wanted to dig, or to buy traps, but that's just resource management. I have downtime in Starcraft too, if I'm managing my resources badly. Much less of it when I make a mistake I suppose, but I can cancel any task in DK and unless I'm canceling building a room (or maybe a trap also? I haven't tried that yet.) it don't cost me any money to do so.

Now...the pace of Dungeon Keeper has *just happened* to fit perfectly into my life in the last week. I've had 10-15 minutes at a time to game, followed by long stretches of time where I'm at work, or hanging out with the girlfriend, or doing something else. (Mostly being at work. :p) If I tried to sit down with it and just play, play, play for a four-hour stretch, I couldn't do that. But that's not what this game is trying to be.

It's funny that people keep listing Warframe as an example of a F2P game that feels better, because I played two or three missions in Warframe and got bored and quit. I could see all of this delicious content, and it was all behind paywalls - and meanwhile I wasn't having fun with what struck me as the very repetitive gameplay and uninteresting abilities available to me. I played it the first or second month that it was released on Steam, though, so maybe it's changed by then - and maybe I'm just not the target audience.

I had a very similar experience with LoL, too. All of these neat characters, and I only get to play a few of them, and none of the free ones (at the time) really grabbed me. I did wind up shelling out some cash for a character during the four or five matches I played. Wound up not liking that character either, and I said, "well eff this, I'm not going to spend money to find things I don't like" and stopped. I think that the UI gave me a lot of issue, though - I hate Diablo II and III too, because the pont-and-click interface just doesn't do it for me for an action game where I only control one character.
 

CarbonJames

New member
Feb 10, 2014
8
0
0
TheTinyMan said:
...the pont-and-click interface just doesn't do it for me for an action game where I only control one character.
Have you tried AirMech? Disclaimer, it's my game, but I'm honestly curious what you think of our F2P model. Plus it's sort of like a Dota game except with direct control PLUS you can build and order units around, so what you said there makes me think you might like it.