Jimquisition: I'm Going To Murder Your Children

[ninjaRiv]

I think, from a journalists point of view, this wasn't Jim's best piece. It wasn't as well researched as it should have been. There was also a little bit of contradiction in there.

And he really shouldn't lump everyone together by saying it's gamers who make him sick and gamers are responsible for what has happened. All that's going to do is cause more resentment in the community (as evidenced in this thread). Let's not count those people as gamers. Let's call them... Shitflecks. They play games but they're not part of the gamer community. Kind of like... shit in a pool. Sure, it's swimming in the pool but it's not a fellow swimmer. At the same time, you wouldn't just leave it there, right? You'd report it. Maddawg mentioned that bullying and abusive posts often only get one report? That's the same as 20 people swimming and only one person thinks a floating turd ruins their time. I'm pretty sure it's our responsibility to do away with people who abuse, threaten and insult. Report them AND ignore them. Just sitting there thinking "Lol this is the internet" and trying to just leave them to it is not going to make our experience as gamers any better. It'll only make it worse.

Come on, guys, we can do this!

 

[mirasiel]

A deal? Sounds more like a dealdo to me.

 

[Hellfireboy]

As much as we would like to think so, the solution to this problem doesn't rest with the community. You can't suddenly enlighten someone on a message board to realize that they are an asshole and getting into a back and forth with a troll is like beating your head against a wall and expecting it to fall. The solution rests with attentive moderators, IT security and law enforcement if deemed necessary. The power exercised by a troll is directly related to whether or not the target even reads the posts and Hepler didn't even know about these threats until she was shown them by BioWare's IT security people. Being shown a threat by a security person has a very different psychological effect than finding it on your own since in the former case you feel comforted by the fact that someone is already on it who has your interests in mind. This mitigates the effect of the threat.

There is another problem in that journalist have a tendency to fall into a post hoc fallacy when looking at things like this. In other words, A happened then B happened therefore A caused B. In this case, Hepler received death threats against her children then Hepler left BioWare therefore Hepler receiving death threats against her children caused Hepler to leave BioWare. This takes no other variables into account nor do they attempt to examine whether or not any other variables even exist. "Hepler Leaves BioWare Due to Death Threats," is a much sexier headline than, "Hepler Leaves BioWare to Write a Textbook," even though the later is in fact the truth.

There is also the habit of taking the minority event and making it the center of the story. "Journalist Writes Controversial Theory on Gaming - Receives Death Threats," catches the eye much quicker than, "Journalist Writes Controversial Theory on Gaming - Receives Well Thought Out Arguments Invalidating Central Premise," even though the later may in fact be the majority event.

 

[Slash2x]

WHY IS THIS EVEN A THING!!!!!!!!!!?????????? We keep a kid in jail FOR MONTHS over some stupid crap said in jest as a reference to him being crazy (the LoL Guy) but these morons are not in jail after MAKING A SPECIFIC THREAT TO MURDER A PERSONS CHILDREN!!!! That's it

 

[Doug]

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE. PERIOD.​

There's only one answer to that.

Spoiler

Unless, of course, one who've been threatened is a murderer himself.

And yet, people -still- do it. So, apparently, it's not just "No shit sherlock" to some people. Especially given this is not the first time its happened lately.

As Jim says, why would talented people -want- to work in the game industry if the audience is like this. And I know, its only a 'vocal minority', but they reflect on us as a whole, so we need to sort it out if we don't want to be seen as a bunch of entitled trolling idiots by the world in general.

 

[nuttshell]

THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR DEATH THREATS TOWARDS ANYONE...Unless, of course, one who've been threatened is a murderer himself.

Wow there, Sherlock. An eye for an eye? Don't go there.

 

[Carnagath]

I'm Going To Murder Your Children

If your first response to a game creator doing something you dislike is to get personal with them and threaten their families, you waive any righteousness you might have had. Seems like a no-brainer ... yet so few of us seem to have brains.

Watch Video

Great video, it's messed up how people react over a pass-time activity. People need to grow up.

One small correction though, her quitting Bioware wasn't a direct result of the harassment she received, she quit because she is going to be making a text book about narrative design and doing other game related freelance work. Game news outlets have kind of run away with the story out of context.

http://www.polygon.com/2013/8/15/4622252/plague-of-game-dev-harassment-erodes-industry-spurs-support-groups

DETAILS, DETAILS I SAY. Why not create a shitstorm out of one complete jerkoff who quit after provoking and welcoming every single word of abuse he got, and a writer who quit for completely unrelated reasons? MORE VIEWWWWWWS! MORE VIEWWWWWWWWWWWWWS!!!

 

[Ishal]

Some assholes somehow abuse someone that is linked to the persons status in the gaming culture (be it a dev, a professional player or just a community person) and you either get a horde of people finding reasons tho why we should stop talking about it (and in the end hindering any kind of progress to better the issue and thus defending the attacker) or finding reasons to why it was the victims fault or how we totally misrepresent the issue. Of course they assure that 'I don't want to defend those' but they still do exactly that.

Yes, it is unfortunate but again its hardly only gamers that do this.

"Hey, let me misquote Hepler and twist it in a way that she called us all VIRGINS! LETS LYNCH HER!!!"

Again, unfortunate but I still don't believe the majority go gamers are like this, if that were the case we'd see more cases like this and devs wouldn't make games anymore. We'd see more and more people leaving the industry.

"Hey, that one time before Fez Phil Fish tweeted something mildly suggestive, look what an ass he is, HE IS SUCH A BASTARD THAT DESRVES ALL OF THIS!"

Your time could be spent elsewhere rather than wasting it on Blowfish. I direct you to post #118 to see my views on the man and the incident.

And this are some of the recent examples. I always love to see the trivialisations. And I try to remove myself as part of the gamer culture. It seems I can manage it rather well because I lack the needed hate to participate in either defending or attacking everyone who may be slightly suggestive or have a somewhat different opinion than the gaming hivemind has.

Hyperbole. There is no gaming hivemind. There are like minded individuals who gather in places to agree on things and sometimes to do reprehensible acts, like we are discussing here. It sucks, and it is a problem. But it is in no way the whole of the culture. You can't use comments like what that mod said here...

Edit: May I direct you to post number 376?

... and generalize all gamers. If you want to remove yourself from it, fine. But there is no hivemind, no ultra presence that defines all gamers. Some need to speak out more against this behavior, and I don't know what that mod is talking about when he says there are death threats all the time. I don't see them. That could mean one of two things. One, he and his companions are doing their jobs well so these people who threaten others are banned before I notice. Or two, I don't frequent the forums where they occur (I stay out of R&P). This is the effect of anonymity and venue to express opinions without fear of repercussions. It is a unique beast not easily comparable to other societal problems. I understand where all the hate and vitriol comes from, I get it. Gaming is the scapegoat for societies problems with media. It's almost always under fire and its been that way for a long time. Things are starting to get better now, but the psychosis of always being on the defensive is still very much in the minds of many gamers. It's just the reality. However, just because I understand it in no way excuses it. I flag bad posts all the time, its the way we keep these forums clean and habitable for the MANY gamers who aren't like the bad ones being discussed here. I'll say it again, stop generalizing.

 

[Aardvaarkman]

If you a developer, I would give this advice for you to follow, now repeat after me. "I am armed, I am prepared to defend myself and my family. I have hired armed security for PAX (or whatever convention I went to). It did not need to come to me feeling the need to be armed.

That would be a silly statement, because it is entirely unbelievable, and any sane convention like PAX does not allow firearms through the door. Who would go to a convention that allowed armed people to walk around?

The other reason it is silly is because of completely unnecessary escalation.

 

[Something Amyss]

"Hey, that one time before Fez Phil Fish tweeted something mildly suggestive, look what an ass he is, HE IS SUCH A BASTARD THAT DESRVES ALL OF THIS!"

Of course, it wasn't just once, wasn't "mildly suggestive," and there's nothing to suggest equivalence to the other examples given here.

It really does seem like a lot of people are trying to do mental backflips to put Fish in the same category. I'm not saying everyone's doing it; see below. But, if anything, Fish told a dude to kill himself. If we're being fair and equivalent, shouldn't Phil be getting the kind of shit we give any other pathetic little bully on the internet? Would anyone be playing the victim card on him if he was one of us who had told Hepler to kill herself? No?

We really shouldn't use Phil Fish as an example. The dude is caustic and told someone to kill himself[footnote]Futurama quote or not[/footnote]. Since this is the kind of behaviour we're supposed to not be tolerating from the gaming community, let's....Not tolerate it.

And more to the point, I think using him as an example hurts the overall message. Hepler got threats against her kids. Vall of Duty's VanWilder got death threats. Some other indie guy actually reported that threats were made against his daughter. Fish told someone to kill themselves.

Fish was a bully who didn't like it when people fired back.


I'll finish this by pointing out that if Fish received death threats, that's a different story and it shouldn't happen. I looked and didn't find anything immediately online demonstrating that, and I've made like fifty posts on the matter without a single correction. I feel fairly safe in the notion that he wasn't threatened or, if he was, he's playing it uncharacteristically close to the chest. In fact, I DID find a tweet from Fish saying that he got called a "hipster ******" every day, but had never received death threats.

To Recap: Hepler got threats for writing for games.

VanHelsing got threats for announcing patch details for Call of Duty.

Other indie guy (I can't find the story on google right now) got threats for making an indie game.

Fish didn't get death threats despite being hostile from the start and told someone to kill himself.

I was not commenting on whether Fish deserved it or not. I was purely responding to the claim that Jim only did this episode because it was a woman who was being harassed. The fact that Jim did a very similar episode in regards to Fish shows that gender was not the motivation.

Which is indeed a fair assessment. I don't know where people got the idea that this was solely a gender issue came from, or that Jim (or anyone else) thinks it's okay when it happens to guys. I still think the Fish example is a bad one, but clearly Jim's not concerned with just women. And Vonderhaaf got a similar appalled response from The Escapist and other communities. Not enough of one, I must say, but still.

we're not "White Knighting" for Hepler.

We're sick of this crap in general.

I think, from a journalists point of view, this wasn't Jim's best piece. It wasn't as well researched as it should have been. There was also a little bit of contradiction in there.

And he really shouldn't lump everyone together by saying it's gamers who make him sick and gamers are responsible for what has happened. All that's going to do is cause more resentment in the community (as evidenced in this thread). Let's not count those people as gamers. Let's call them... Shitflecks. They play games but they're not part of the gamer community. Kind of like... shit in a pool. Sure, it's swimming in the pool but it's not a fellow swimmer. At the same time, you wouldn't just leave it there, right? You'd report it. Maddawg mentioned that bullying and abusive posts often only get one report? That's the same as 20 people swimming and only one person thinks a floating turd ruins their time. I'm pretty sure it's our responsibility to do away with people who abuse, threaten and insult. Report them AND ignore them. Just sitting there thinking "Lol this is the internet" and trying to just leave them to it is not going to make our experience as gamers any better. It'll only make it worse.

Come on, guys, we can do this!

I'll just point out that bullying relies on normalising behaviour. The reason this happens is because we do allow it. The way we stop this behaviour is by making it socially unacceptable. And marking bullies is a decent start.

"It's the internet" and "nothing can be done" are both self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

[Something Amyss]

If you a developer, I would give this advice for you to follow, now repeat after me. "I am armed, I am prepared to defend myself and my family. I have hired armed security for PAX (or whatever convention I went to). It did not need to come to me feeling the need to be armed.

That would be a silly statement, because it is entirely unbelievable, and any sane convention like PAX does not allow firearms through the door.

The other reason it is silly is because of completely unnecessary escalation.

This is the internet. Unnecessary escalation is what we do best.

On the flip side, if this sort of crap continues, people will feel the need to defend themselves. Rational or not, I wouldn't be surprised to see more devs arming themselves.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see some poor fan shot in the next five years because paranoia breeds stupidity, but still.

 

[magicmonkeybars]

Wow thanks for a great video !
Maybe we can have more of these kind of valuable insights into video game culture next week.
Sure have a strangest feeling of deja vu though.
It's so disturbing how video games make people behave in this manner, maybe there should be stricter regulations put in place to ensure a healthier environment for people to work in.
Seems like it's not so much a matter of genre but just video games in general that are the cause of all this abuse.
Maybe a special tax on video games will limit the effects of their content by limiting the audience's consumption or would limiting the content be a happier solution so that people can continue to afford to purchase healthy video game content in the same volume.
Thanks again for this eye opening video.

 

[JarinArenos]

Some stupid kid got arrested for a facebook post. Is the only reason that happened because the cops knew where to find him? Is it just too damn hard for cops to track down someone posting on a forum? Even with publically-available IP data, I can track down someone pretty close, and getting an address is as simple as a police request to the ISP (okay, probably warrant required, but still). Online threats need to start being treated like offline ones.

 

[hentropy]

These debates always seem to go in more or less the same direction. Crazy person(s) goes off and does something crazy relating to video games, then video game journalists are more or less obligated to come out as Jim does and denounce it in the strongest possible terms. But you still have people who think with good intentions that we shouldn't make a big deal out of it, that it lends it more credence than it deserves to prompt a loud and outraged response, because people are just going to keep doing it for the attention or whatever.

It is a difficult puzzle. People have brought up dedicated fanbases in other mediums- your One Direction or Bieber or any other pop idol of the day fanatics. But think about it, do any of them have really good public perceptions? We just sort of assume that boy band fanatics are crazed and willing to do crazy things if it means getting to see their favorite band, and go as far as threatening them with violence if they show up at a concert late.

We also have seen this dynamic with much bigger and more impacting issues, as well- take the old American south or the current perspective on Muslims in America. Not every person in the old south was a KKK member, many even believed that things had to change, but when confronted with these issues they either stayed silent or tried to shift the issue to how many things in the south were good (see: "Sweet Home Alabama")- which of course didn't erase the gross injustices. We also see the current debate on terrorism, while the vast majority of Muslims obviously don't support what the terrorists do and may denounce it, they also try to switch the subject, talk about damaging foreign policy and how Christians have done some terrible things, as well. They don't like getting lumped in with the crazies, but they also go on the defensive, and then the attack about other matters. As such, people see them, many times unfairly as defending or sympathizing with the terrorists, when all they really had to do is say "that is wrong and not Islam" very loudly and leave it at that.

In the end, people don't see "gamers" as those that play iOS/Android games and play Madden every once in a while, we're talking about, well, us. Avid gamers that devote a lot of time to them, and yes these crazies are seen as gamers just as the rest of us, even if they are crazy and hiding behind relative anonymity. If we all come out with a deafening roar to say these things are not okay, with no qualifications, no unrelated tangents, no attacking of the victims, no decrying of "political correctness" or something in that vein, just a loud, resounding, and undeniable denouncement. If we don't- if we have 400 post debates about an issue that should be so simple, we will be seen as a "well yes that is wrong, BUT" kind of a culture that we have seen many times before, and they always work against themselves.

 

[ellieallegro]

Jim mirrors exactly my sentiments on what I like to call a horrible risk/reward career. If I was a creative and was thinking about getting into the video game industry I would have three choices: Put up with abuse and ignore it, hire a pr firm to do it for me or just not do it at all and find another outlet for your creative energy. One takes a certain type of person which you already know if you are or not, two takes money which you might not have if you are an indie and three seems like the best choice to me.

Similarly, I had a friend who recently graduated with an MA and her teaching credential from a good grad school and she was considering going into the K-12 system here in Los Angeles. She asked me for my advice and I told her that she was crazy for even considering it with her talent and credentials. Why put up with crap from students, parents, administrators and others who WILL look down on you because you have an "easy" job since you get the summer off... not to mention people feel they have the right to ***** about the teacher's union to you even though you have little to do with the politics of the situation (btw the unions will only protect you if you are at least 5-10 years in and by that time you are already a burned out husk of a person to care). Too much risk, not enough reward is my point.

Sure, the failing school system lost out on another bright young mind but my friend is much, much happier working at the non-profit she now works at where she gets treated with respect both financially and professionally.

TLDR: If you have the talent, run far, far away from any high risk low reward career that isn't going to give you the respect you deserve. And that includes the video game industry.

 

[MoeMints]

Okay this is like the fourth video in a row where Jim just bitches about a vocal minority and then ruins it by using sweeping strokes that makes it apply to every opposing view.

Only this one is the most obvious and generalizing so far.
You had a great point until you mentioned Phil Fish and started blabbering about creativity.
There are many writers that can be superior and would tolerate the abuse.
This isn't a good defense for them.

Phil Fish is ironically a case of uncensored reactionary entitlement to saying whatever goes through his head on a dime.
However, you would feel that's justified and you and many others WILL DEFEND IT, because you feel its "unique and interesting"?

Even in the Dragon's Crown and feminism videos, you seemed to at least have some people's attention you were talking about, though they most likely didn't even care.
Now you're just not understanding this is human nature for a loud minority of people on the internet in general.

You aren't getting to people you're talking about. AT ALL.

 

[Deacon Cole]

People keep sending Jim fucked up sex toys.

See. This is why I don't have my own video show. I don't want to receive shit like that from fans. I don't even want fans because fans are twats.

I also don't have anything interesting to say, but that doesn't stop the hundreds of other people who have Youtube channels and the like.

 

[JoeyMousepadd]

Jim,

I'm not really up on gaming news as much as some others, but I do enjoy your segment every week. That being said, I had no idea what the hell you were talking about. Next time, can you give a little more context? What did she write? Where? Why were people so offended by what she wrote? A little more back story could have gone a long way with this one.

 

[JarinArenos]

These debates always seem to go in more or less the same direction. Crazy person(s) goes off and does something crazy relating to video games, then video game journalists are more or less obligated to come out as Jim does and denounce it in the strongest possible terms.

I think that other sectors could stand to be MORE vocal in denouncing their crazy elements. It'd go a long way towards my opinion of organized religion if I saw any of them speaking out against people like Westboro.
Edit:

So, why does it comes to this: when Phil Fish quited from the game industry, Jim and most of you guys told him to "grow the f**k up and deal with it", but when a woman does the same, everyone gets to defend her and yell that gamers are soulless douches?

Did... you not watch Jim's video on Fish at all? Jim defended the man. I'm pretty sure the same people that said he should grow the eff up are the same people saying that here. So no, toss your feminist conspiracies back in the shoebox for next time.

 

[maddawg IAJI]

It's up to the person being insulted to raise an issue if they feel offended not everyone who witnesses it.

You're literally quoting, word for word, the problem that arises with the bystander effect. There's a reason why the report button exists on everyone's screen dude, and that's because we trust the community to use it when they see something like that.

If the person being targeted didn't find it offensive why should the other party be punished?

Because it still shouldn't be tolerated. If you're being an asshole to everyone, you should still be punished for being an asshole. How do you expect the problem users to learn or finally be cast out if no one points them out? Admins run entirely on reports, we can't see the posts unless someone stands up and points them out.

How can an observer know if it's not friendly banter, just without the context that may have been established by the two parties in another thread?

Well for one, most friendly banter tends to be over the top and obvious, but you bring up a good point. Not every post is going to be black and white. Welcome to my world, where I often get put into scenario's similar to that. I just expect people to use their best judgement and, if they're unsure, report it anyways and allow the admins to judge it.[/quote]

Moot point as far as this argument goes, as saying "Don't lump me in with the crazies" is not the same as "Let's just ignore the crazies." Thanks for spuriously implying that is what any of us who are annoyed that Jim let these idiots hijack his entire weekly video so he could scream at them, are saying.

You're welcome. Sorry mate, but if you post in their threads (Or at least read their thread) and you don't bother reporting them, you might as well be ignoring them.

Those of us saying that we feel his time could have been better spent in a more positive manner does not mean we in any way condone people threatening violence against someone they don't like.

Yeah, I noticed you don't condone violence, and that's good. It means you have a sense of morality. But your morality is wasted if you choose to allow those who don't have any morals to run rampant. I'm sorry, but its true.

or in your own depiction, apathetics.

Because we are apathetic. When someone tells us that they slept with our mother or calls us a fag, do you think the majority of the gaming community mutes and reports? Of course not. Insult throwing is considered to be a stereotype among gamers. We don't like it, but we passively sit by and let it continue, even when we're the targets.

Yeah that's brilliant. As if there isn't enough trouble with the malcontents who are sending death threats to innocent individuals, now we have people like Jim and yourself inciting the community to judge and turn on any members you feel just aren't as concerned over the issue as they should be.

Because you should be concerned, you shouldn't be arguing how I'm being too harsh on a community that is so fragmented and lacks empathy for one another. I'm telling you to turn on people who don't do anything, I'm asking you to judge and turn on people who are being ignored because people don't anything. Encouraging civic duty is kinda part of my job, both in reality and on the web.

However if moderating these boards makes you as upset as you sound about it (being sick of seeing aberrant behavior) then maybe burdening yourself with more things to worry about is a bad idea, as it sounds like you have a pretty full plate already.

N'ah, trust me mate, I'm not going through anything the other red guard members have not gone through already.

When I get time away I like to spend it playing games or chatting on web forums, so when I see individuals rabbiting on about how septic and terrible the community surrounding my hobbies are without what I feel is proper justification or proportion, it tends to annoy me. Especially so when I feel there are quite a bit of positive aspects about these hobbies, yet no one seems to ever want to discuss them. Which I find more than a bit depressing.

Because as sad as it is, you don't make progress pointing out the positive stuff. You need recognize the problems of the gaming community, and one of them happens to be an aggressive player base.

Oh not at all, I'm just saying as a moderator you should set an example and in this instance I feel you let your emotions override your judgement.

Good. I'm human. I'm not perfect and I hold differing opinions from others. I'm not a paragon and you should not see me that way. I will set an example on how a person should act with others on this site, but I'm not going to sit by and not let my opinion be heard.

I agree, I may have been a tad overemotional on this topic. You'll have to excuse me on that, since bullying has been and always will be a serious problem in my view. But regardless, sometimes you need to go with your gut. If something in the community has made me so angry that it overrode logic, it must be a serious issue. Either that, or I'm a Sith.