Jimquisition: It's Not A Video Game!

[marioandsonic]

Good episode, Jim, and I think you nailed it on the head with people who say "This isn't a game = This isn't a game I like".

I've seen the argument that Angry Birds isn't a game, or that even Call of Duty isn't a game.

 

[CaitSeith]

You have your definitions, I have mine, but at the end of the day it's all semantics.

.
.
.
The entirety of human society is based on them. It is never acceptable for the same word to mean completely different things to any two people, because that undermines the very foundation of human interaction.

It is never acceptable, and yet it happens all the time in the real world.

 

[PirateRose]

Isn't there this never ending debate as to what rules are put into place to consider what is art? I just watched Mona Lisa Smile the other day, that movie took place in 1953, and they had that as the central class subject for the whole movie. Defining art is far more difficult, huge blanketing subject that covers a lot of things and video games are one of those things that fall under that never ending debate.

It's easy to define what is abnormal, but extremely difficult to define what is normal.

 

[Shingeki no Gingerbeard]

I think Jim missed a big opportunity here. Rather than have a discussion on what constitutes a game, what the definition is and how it can be applied across the field, he simply laid down a declarative statement and said "that's it."

For example, I'm not completely sold on the notion that "visual novels" are "video games;" be they a work by Telltale, some other independant studio, or something more Japanese and adult-oriented. I fail to see how an electronic version of the choose-your-own-adventure books I grew up with can be compared to a simulation like Animal Crossing; which may be a game, but not in the same vein as the Sims franchise.

You know, I had a similar problem. My question was: Are books considered as video games if they're distributed online on any tool that uses a video screen? And I came up with....yes. Why? Are books fun? They can be. Are all video games fun? Some can be more than others. How do you play a book? By reading it. Is reading fun? Some books can be fun more than others.

So, since electronic books can be labeled as video games, therefore visual novels must be labeled as video games as well.

But now you've opened up a huge can of worms. A book can be read and intended for various purposes, and does not have to come in electronic form. Some are educational and informative, while others are for entertainment.

If we say an electronic copy of a book is equivalent to a video game, then so are the digital copies of a film. I guess I own a "game" of "The Dark Knight" on my hard drive, and not a film. I also have a print edition of "Lord of the Rings," as well as the extended edition DVDs. Are the films now mere "ports" of a sixty-year old piece of literature, or are they something separate?

 

[WindofHawks]

Ok, I am now divided on this issue. On the one hand, you have Jim's argument, and on the other you have Total Biscuit's argument, that by lumping these things with games, we are actually restricting them, as they are an art form in their own right (he made a video on it explaining his views more fully).

 

[Karadalis]

Even with the hint system? It will tell the player the answer if they like - no skill at all required.

There's a hint system in Monkey Island? Since when?

The re-releases and the new games all have hint systems. The original releases did not.

Which makes it an interesting question - can the addition of the hint system take something that was a game (the original) and make it not a game (the re-releases)?

Yes.. yes it can.

Because at this point the game plays itselfe and you are just there to make the necesary clicks it tells you to do.

Honestly thought... who would ruin the game for themselves by using such a system? I mean i remember the first phantasmangoria also had a hint system (damn fine horror game with hilarious acting btw) but what it did was pointing you in the right direction... not really outright tell you what to do.

However theres still a difference in ruining the game for yourselfe by using what basically is a cheat tool... and having it ruined for yourselfe simply by watching a video....

The interactivity in these games is just a pacing tool and for a more involved atmospheric overall feeling. However interaction =/= gameplay

 

[CaitSeith]

It's Not A Video Game!

Addressing a common criticism leveled at certain types of video games, and explaining why they are, contrary to the criticism, still video games.

Watch Video

By your definition, all of my movie DVDs are video games, because there's a menu you pass through to watch the video, and you can pause, rewind, and fast forward. That's interactivity, however slight.

I can't tell if it's funny or frustating to see how people nitpick features to define what a videogame is. You can toy with the DVD menus and special features, but the intent of a movie is to sit down and watch it from start to finish (any interactivity is secondary, minimal or none if it autoplays the discs, and just for convenience).

 

[CaitSeith]

Yes, it's fairly clear... that this definition is catered towards physical sport.
What about Monkey Island? It doesn't really require skill or luck. It may require strength in order to push the mouse around. But that's it.
Not a game?

Monkey Island does require skill though. It requires "adventure-game-logic skills" in order to figure out the puzzles and progress through the game. Depending on your perspective, it may not require a huge amount of skill in order to figure out the puzzles, but it's still fundamentally driven by the player's ability to solve the puzzles.

I don't think it requires skill to walk around and try to use every item on every object. You can just mindlessly go click click click click click and eventually you'll beat the game. You surely can't lose so winning is actually the only way for this "game" to end.

Suuuure. Try to win the Insult Sword Fighting without paying attention to the dialog and then tell us that again.

 

[keniakittykat]

"It's not a game" is a stupid thing to say. Just because there's little interaction or even a coherent story, if there is interaction set in a confined virtual universe, it is a video game. From what are basically virtual art gallery's to pac-man and everything in between are in fact video games.

I've even heard people say that the Ace Attorney series aren't video games!

 

[CaitSeith]

I think Jim missed a big opportunity here. Rather than have a discussion on what constitutes a game, what the definition is and how it can be applied across the field, he simply laid down a declarative statement and said "that's it."

For example, I'm not completely sold on the notion that "visual novels" are "video games;" be they a work by Telltale, some other independant studio, or something more Japanese and adult-oriented. I fail to see how an electronic version of the choose-your-own-adventure books I grew up with can be compared to a simulation like Animal Crossing; which may be a game, but not in the same vein as the Sims franchise.

You know, I had a similar problem. My question was: Are books considered as video games if they're distributed online on any tool that uses a video screen? And I came up with....yes. Why? Are books fun? They can be. Are all video games fun? Some can be more than others. How do you play a book? By reading it. Is reading fun? Some books can be fun more than others.

So, since electronic books can be labeled as video games, therefore visual novels must be labeled as video games as well.

Play a book? Does it have a higher or a lower pitch than a clarinet?

 

[Carnagath]

To me, it's pretty simple. If the only thing you do is walk, or even worse, just look at it, then it isn't a game, and that's worth distinguishing because many people just don't like that method of storytelling (assuming it even has a story) and they should be informed. Gone Home, as much as I hate it, has puzzles, things to interpret and secret passages to discover in order to see the ending. Any game that has puzzles is, indeed, a game. More specifically, a puzzle game. Same with The Vanishing of Ethan Carter (which I loved). Dear Esther on the other hand, only has walking. And Mountain only has you looking at it. So those two are clearly not games.

 

[Fox12]

I think I'm more in line with what total biscuit said about the issue. I like using the term interactive experience to talk about these kinds of games, but I don't mean it in a derogatory way. Either that or call them games but have some way to classify them as more of an experience than a mechanical challenge or something. I don't know, this is an issue that the community will eventually settle as long as people like Sterling and Total biscuit keep voicing their opinions on it. Good episode as always jim.

Also that TV you showed in animal crossing looked like an apple. If you didn't notice.

I think the issue is that a lot of video games aren't really "games" in the conventional sense, as the medium has transcended that term. In a way the term just isn't as accurate as it used to be. Interactive drama may be a more accurate term.

And yet, like it or not, video game is the term now used for this medium. Personally, I'm fine with it. It's not pretentious. Instead of saying something isn't a game, you should say that it's a bad game. Otherwise you give ammo to the people who try to paint games as a non art form.

 

[Grach]

Yes. Sadly, Beyond: Two Souls is a videogame. I hate the attitude that videogames need to have minimalistic gameplay. It just misses the point of an interactive medium and all of the possiblilities it encompasses. I do find The Stanley Parable to be a small step in the right direction, because it tries to account for all the players actions.

Eventually, as videogames mature and evolve their own language, we'll get to the "This is not a pipe" point. At that point, we will know what videogames can become. Hopefully, it will follow its own path to rejoice and frolick with the rest. Follow the smoke if you wish to see. Here's a TV that looks like an apple.

How it will reach that point I don't know. Ask those who consume and walk on its flesh if you wish for an answer. Twenty. Eleven. I have asked them and they only return horrendous shapes and noises. Remember, if you do not ask them, they will see you and then hate you. In the end you will return from the white and red abyss looking for sanity, andyou know what you will find?

Hell.

Haha.

Here's a TV that looks like an apple.

 

[Mikeybb]

How do you know if something's a game? Apply the following test:

Can I interact with it through an electronic medium?

Schindler's List: no
Monopoly (board game): no
Monopoly (digital board game): yes
Quake: yes
A literal earthquake: no
Half-Life: yes
Half-Life with god mode on so you can't die or fail: yes
An interactive Half-Life cardboard diorama: no
Lego: no
A hypothetical digital version of Lego that's identical to the physical version in every way except the lego pieces are
data and you interact with them using a tablet screen: yes


See? SEE? See how *easy* this is?

I just applied that test to all my ebooks.
Are they games too?
Okay, that was facetious of me, but it elaborates my point.
There are many things that require electronic interaction that provide entertainment and are not games.
That, however, does not make them worthless as a form of entertainment.

I fall somewhere on the spectrum where things called walking simulators still feel like games to me, but text based games without any degree of multiple choice (and some of the ones that do) fall somewhat short of the definition.
In fact, one of my most enjoyable indie game experiences over the last year was a walking simulator.

http://gamejolt.com/games/other/trihaywbfrfyh/20342/
The Rapture is here and you will be forcibly removed from your home.

I won't elaborate on it, just in case you feel so inclined to play.

Anyway.

My point is this.
That game had no failure state.
If I was pushed hard enough, I would concede by that definition it is not a game.
However, I think what is needed is less arguing whether they are games or not, and more defining what they are to begin with.
Walking simulator always makes me chuckle, but it does a disservice to the impact some of those games can have to people who are receptive to that sort of experience.
The same can be said of text based games with limited or no multiple choice paths.
Finding a way to promptly define them would go some way to breaking down the stigma of whether they are a game or not, because one could then define the game play that is present within them.

In the case of the 'walking simulator', it is immersing yourself in the moment and, if there is one, the story.
Allowing the atmosphere to engage you completely.
Those aren't the kind of things I could play unless I knew I had an uninterrupted session ahead.

Now, whether that is seen as game play to all gamers is another matter entirely.

What happens to be a game for me may well not be for you and the same is true likewise.
Even if this issue was fixed, here and now by act of wizard or some other all powerful entity, I can guarantee that some people would still say, when viewing something they didn't engage with 'it's not a real game though, is it?'.
After all, some gamers have been saying that about genres they don't like since before we even had 'walking simulators' around.

 

[neverarine]

so games need to be in 3d now?

I was talking about why Walking Dead is not specifically a Visual Novel, not about the definition of non-games.

I'm not really sure how you misunderstaood this assuming that you are arguing in good faith.

how does having divergent routes make something not a game? your saying that games can only have one possible ending

Games can have many endings, but I have never seen one with divergent routes, like visual novels, that also have many parallel main plots, as the divergence happens right after the first chapter of the exposition, the rest telling entirely different stories.

ah ok the first part was my bad im not sure how i read it that way either... though the divergent point im gonna have to stick with as i dont see how that can make it not a game, while yes i cant realy think of any advanture/rpg games or the like that has an early branch off like that in a linear game, i dont see how having something like that can make something lose its qualifications to be a game, an opne world rpg like Morrowind or Oblivion could potentialy be looked at as having multiple divergent story lines since you make the descions and play through the route as you go taking quests and visting places in that pattern, the story that the character in teh game has experienced can be quite different and plus there are visual novels with other elements such as War of the Human Tanks which has actual strategy game, gameplay in it that does just fine with having a vn route in the between missions dialouge

 

[rgrekejin]

I've never really had an issue with people saying something "isn't a game". I tend to prefer the phrase "barely a game" myself. I mean, obviously it's a game, and I think the people who use this phrase often will probably admit as much. As far as I can tell, it's just a harmless, slightly hyperbolic way of denoting a specific kind of game: a game with minimalistic controls that typically requires very little in the way of input from the player.

 

[ZippyDSMlee]

Amen, its a game its meant to be played, its meant to have heavy interaction, do something with it that's not tedious or or brainless, try to make mechanics good and fun with some depth that dose not rob you of time via lack or enjoyment or rob you of IQ points from all the holes it drilled in your skull.....

 

[StriderShinryu]

Any sort of interactive experience using video and a control device is perfectly fine with being called a videogame. If you take much issue with that, I'm really not sure why you're so insecure about something else/new being lumped in with more traditional videogames. Needing a videogame to have 40 year old mechanics and rules to be considered a videogame is just having an archaic view of a still growing and expanding.

 

[josh4president]

OI! Are you mental?

Do you seriously think an episode about Silent Hill: Downpour has no merit with Evil Within just around the corner?

Even if it's just to make a video about, 'Please Lord let Evil Within not be like this' then it certainly wouldn't be a waste of bloody time.