Jimquisition: It's Not A Video Game!

[Dragonbums]

So where would something like depression quest fall?

A text based Adventure game? There were plenty of those in the early days of videogames.

 

[Something Amyss]

Could it be that they'll somehow use that crutch of "Oh, the developers of the game were really close with games journalists." to legitimatize this poor argument? "How dare you say Gone Home was a game! Did someone have to sleep with you to say that Jim?!" Also, since #IRefuseToBeLimitedBy140CharactersAndThereforDontUseTwitter , can someone link some of these recent comments that are "golden"?

Don't be absurd! Jim doesn't have a vagina, so he's completely above board!

...At least, that's the impression I've got from him mentioning more concrete ties to game devs and getting away with it....

I don't have twitter, either. I mean, I just found his responses by googling "Jim Sterling Twitter."

 

[dochmbi]

Can anybody please tell me what the game shown at 02:23 was? It looked nice. I wish jim would have a small box in the corner of the video which stated what game footage is being shown.

 

[Moeez]

Man, I remember his distaste for The Path. But he might have falsified that Tale of Tales don't want to call their games "games". I love The Path, it has important and interesting things in it because of the interaction of being a game about abuse and being lost while playing through 8 versions of The Red Riding Hood. I'm not a fan of the "notgame" thing, but Tale of Tales don't really subscribe to even that. If you go to The Path website [http://thepath-game.com/], it's right there in the name of the website "a short horror game".

Their latest upcoming game, Sunset [http://tale-of-tales.com/Sunset/], also described as a game "Sunset is a narrative-driven first-person videogame that takes place in a single apartment in a fictional South American city in the early 1970s."

Aside from that, completely agreed with his arguments. So many widely appreciated games (some simulators), would have to be treated as not games if TotalBiscuit had a say in the matter.

It's just exclusionary and not helping to discussion to shut out certain games. Proteus' developer said it best [http://www.visitproteus.com/what-are-game/]:

"Outside of academic discussions, encouraging a strict definition of 'game' does nothing but foster conservatism and defensiveness in a culture already notorious for both."

 

[crypticracer]

How about, "Play in a digital enviorment, that is structured and goal oriented?"

EDIT: That actually doesn't mean much more than a digital game, which doesn't really help at all...

hm... How about Dragon's Lair? I mean, I guess it's a game. Memorization with some reflex challenge. I want to say videogames should involve choice, but that discounts pure reflex challenges.

What if we say, Play is required to progress in a game. So, because you don't "play" a dvd menu, it doesn't count as a video game? But then we get into defining play. In this case I would not count hitting play on a movie... ergh.

I'm basically just throwing out a bunch of ideas. I'm curious if this discussion goes anywhere else, though I'm pretty sure most people agree that none of us here are actually going to put down a definition for it. But it is a fun thought exercise.

 

[Faerillis]

'Not a Game' is not an insult but a definition; a Game is defined by requisite and developing skill. Kirby's Epic Yarn? There's no failure state but you still develop the skills and logics of the game so you can get further. Now, I don't like Dear Esther either but when I call it 'Not a Game' that's neither an insult nor is it placing it above games; say it's a rambling, vapid piece of shit is insulting ? and accurate. Stormrise is a game and it's absolutely garbage too. The definition exists so we know what we're getting into.

 

[Moeez]

Can anybody please tell me what the game shown at 02:23 was? It looked nice. I wish jim would have a small box in the corner of the video which stated what game footage is being shown.

The Vanishing of Ethan Carter [http://ethancartergame.com/]. It just came out, and is pretty rad.

 

[gridsleep]

I have a sudden strange need for a TV that looks like an apple...

 

[Spearmaster]

Whoa... You mean everything I do with my television and computer is a video game? Checking the weather on my smartphone is a video game? Watching a DVD or blue-ray is a video game? This is absurd beyond where my comprehension of ignorance could ever take me. There is a line, just because we cant quite define it doesn't mean its not there.

On the other hand if we start calling everything a video game we can finally stop trying to rate these non-video game things as good pieces of whatever they are but rather horrible, shitty, 0/10, .01%, video games.

So if we call them video games, we can rightly call them shit video games, brilliant

 

[seditary]

So the Jimquisition is a game then.

It requires user interaction, has a user interface that provides feedback and is on a video device.

So I'll treat it as a game.

What a terribly poor sexist game. 7 minutes long and no women? I feel marginalized by the exclusion. I want to play a woman's opinion on the definition of videogames. The graphics were at times crisp but mysteriously blurry at others. Sound was excellent throughout. At least it was free to play, I wouldn't spend money on the product since I didn't even get to do anything. Would not recommend.

 

[ConanThe3rd]

Absolutely; Your product is a game and with that title comes power, however, with that power comes the responsibility to be a _good_ game.

 

[barbzilla]

Good morning to my lord and master. I can't help but agree with you. Provided it is interactive and requires a monitor, screen, television, ect. I would classify it as a video game. No matter if it is good or bad, it is still a video game, even if I have to use game lightly.

Anyhow, great video as always Jim, thank god for you!

So all movies are videogames because they have menu's. Windows 7 is a videogame because it is interactive, and requires a screen.

If I were to strap a camera to the head of a robot, give you movement controls of it then place it in a museum, no one would call it a videogame. That is what Dear Ester was, just with different words and setting.

I wouldn't call ordering from a mcdonald's menu social interaction, so by the same means, I don't call picking play from a DvD menu interaction. I can somewhat see your point about windows, but it still isn't entertainment, and that was my fault for not specifying entertainment. As for your robot claim, people ***** all the time that drone warfare is nothing but video games with real life consequences, so how would that be any different?

 

[MrBaskerville]

I don't really know where i stand and i don't really think this entire discussion is worth having. It's semantics, but at some level i probably would say that some games might benefit from a different tag, They don't really feature a lot of game mechanics and might be more akin to something labeled Interactive Fiction. But that might as well be a sub genre of the umbrella term: Game. It's all semantics anyway, the only somewhat important part would be to find a proper genre tag to fit onto games like Heavy Rain and Dear Esther and i think Interactive Fiction works better than the vague Not-Game or the degrading Walking simulator.

But yeah, it would be more interesting to discuss whether the games are good or not. The only reason them being games are called into question is that a lot of people hate all these art games and they want them out of their tree house. It's a bit silly and ultimately it really doesnt matter at all.

 

[Abnaxis]

I can somewhat see your point about windows, but it still isn't entertainment, and that was my fault for not specifying entertainment.

What do you mean when you say "it"? Are you saying that any technological system where "interaction" input produces "entertainment" output is a video game? What about a Mutoscopes? Mutoscopes were devices from the early 1900s which ran on electricity, that would shows users a short film as long as they continued cranking a handle. When historians describe the history of video games, should these be listed as one of the first? I mean, they even had a "game over" condition--if the user stopped cranking or tried to reverse the film, many of the machines would snap shut and lock them out of their movie.

Or, for a more relatable example, take old, analog, broadcast television. Anyone who's old enough (or poor enough) can tell you stories, about the times when you just Could. Not. Get. Reception. with those crappy bunny-ear antennas that were supposed to pick up television transmissions. If you wanted to see what was on bad enough, you had to get up and move them around until you hit the magic configuration that let the signal come in. Often, this miracle configuration was not independently stable, and as soon as you let go of the antennas the picture went away. I literally spent hours of my youth "interacting" with a piece of electronics in this way, holding antennas in order to get entertainment.

Are either of these examples video games? If not, what is the distinction between them and a game like Dear Esther, where the entertainment comes from the story, and interaction only facilitates moving from one story bit to the next? If so, what proportion of people who generally have an idea of what a "video game" is would agree with you? Do you think defining the above examples as video games would ever gain widespread acceptance?

To me, the answer is this: the defining characteristic of a video game, is that the interaction IS entertainment. One didn't crank a mutoscope or perform antenna calisthenics because they found it fun, they did it because it was a necessary evil performed to get the actual entertainment they were really interested in. THAT is why I don't consider Dear Esther a game. In that work, the mechanics amount a metaphorical mutoscope crank, a necessary bit of interaction required to get at the bits that are actually entertaining: the story. As such, I'm not going to complain about the mechanics unless they detract from the story, any more than I complain about Get Smart because I didn't find the antenna wrangling engaging. You don't play Dear Esther because you find walking around on an island fun, just like audiences didn't use mutoscopes because they liked twirling handles.

Every piece of software requires some form of interaction. If the interaction is not intended to be entertaining in and of itself, then that piece of software isn't a game. That's why Windows isn't a game, and that's why Dear Esther isn't a game.

 

[jdarksun]

I never got the "must be a failure state" in games because, technically, there is no failure state in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls or so. Sure there's death, but never a failure state. The game is never over for you until you either beat it (and even then it starts over) or you give up (which can be the same for any media, you can quit a show half way through or stop reading a book).

So ya, I never saw a need for that "must be a failure state" when it comes to classifying what's a game.

"Failure state" means you did not succeed at a task and was punished for it. In Dark Souls, you are sent back to your campfire and everything respawns. That is your punishment for failing to play correctly, hence, "failure state."

I see Jim's argument, and I can even see why he's right (he is Jim, after all); it's just a thing I have a hard time accepting. Games (which I grudgingly use in this context, but use nonetheless) like Dear Esther are, to me, like requiring you to press one button at random intervals to keep a movie playing. If I published that to Steam, that'd fulfill the definition of game as defined here. But that's not really a "game" to me - it's a passive experience, like watching a movie or reading a book, that I've artificially broken up by requiring user input. My participation didn't provide me with a unique experience; I got what everyone else got, verbatim.

Which is a silly argument that goes down Jim's path of "personal preference -> Roger Ebert", which I certainly don't want. But it's a hangup I have regardless.

 

[lord.jeff]

Honestly, I feel like saying something is or is not a game is excruciatingly subjective. 'Video Games' are a medium, so the definition should be broad. I've seen a lot of people throwing out the 'are choose your own adventure books considered games?' argument, and I have to say, yes, yes they are. They're a form of entertainment that gives you agency in some way to make it enjoyable, and frankly, that should be all I need. Are they complex games? No, maybe not, but that doesn't stop them from being games.

Heck, some of my favorite games lately are by Choice of Games, and those are chose your own adventure games played on a computer or smartphone; it gives you some story, you make a choice, that choice effects how the story unfolds, and potentially changes some stats. Not the most compelling game to a lot of people, but still a game. 'Walking simulators' give you a small sense of agency in that you choose where you go and how to get there, so I'd consider them games.

Video Games are a medium, so it should be broad. Simulators are a game genre. Role Playing is a genre. FPS is a genre. They aren't all exactly similar, but they're all still games, just like documentaries are still movies. If anyone can explain to me why this is an issue, I'd love to know.

I feel like this is the old pornography argument all over again - "I know it when I see it".

I think a lot of the problem is that video games aren't really a medium all on their own. They're zeros and ones encoded on a platter, that carry no meaning until some electronic device interprets them. They are ideas made manifest through math.

The problem is, there's lots of stuff that isn't video games, yet are still zeros and ones on a platter. Operating systems. Word processors. Device drivers. Multimedia players. The examples of non-game software that still uses the same medium is endless, so where do you draw the line between Notepad and Battlefield 3?

And maybe it is a "I know it when I see it argument," but that's not a reason to write it off. The lighting technician working for a porno company works under different constraints than one who works for Hollywood. The distinction is important even if it is ephemeral.

It's true that video games share some things in common with computer programs but that could be said of other mediums. Are books the same as pictures because they're both pen on paper?

 

[Abnaxis]

snip

It's true that video games share some things in common with computer programs but that could be said of other mediums. Are books the same as pictures because they're both pen on paper?

First, I wasn't saying that video games are exactly the same as other computer programs, but rather that video games aren't really a medium, the zeros and ones are the medium, and that medium includes more than video games.

To answer your question, I would say both the examples you listed are the same in that they share they same medium. Clearly (say) graphic novels and encyclopedias are different from each other in a great many ways, but they are both "books".

Saying that "'video games' are a medium, so anything within that medium is a 'video game'" is like saying encyclopedias are a medium, so anything that shares the same medium is an encyclopedia. "Encyclopedia" does not describe a medium, but rather a subset of one.

 

[Neferius]

That TV looked NOTHING like an Apple!
I mean, where's the cheap plastic flatscreen? Where's the easily bendable tin casing?
And where is the damn PRICETAG.
Everyone knows the most recognizable feature on an Apple, the one thing that makes it stand head and shoulders from all the "commoner" merchandise is it's goddamn PRICETAG!!!

 

[The Lunatic]

I see no issue with classing games as "Non-games" for failing to adhere to a set criteria which the vast majority of games do.

I think it simply makes classification and finding what you want easier.

And besides, it's not like the majority of people aren't going to say "I meant a -real- game".

So, it just seems better to deal with the term.