Jimquisition: Let's End the FPS Sausage-fest

Paradoxrifts

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I've never really understood the obsession people have with Vasquez. She is just simply there to die [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VasquezAlwaysDies]. Created solely to be contrasted against the main character Ripley, so that James Cameron can drive home a point that a woman's 'true strength' comes from her 'maternal instinct'.
 

jmarquiso

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Bato said:
Why is it a thing that women have to be petite and short?
They have body sizes that differ as much as men do, sure they have less natural muscle than men do, but that doesn't mean they all have the physique of a 16 year old with two watermelons duct taped to them.
To be fair, a 6' woman is up there on the curve.

Then again, in games populated by hulking refigerators of men, I think the argument that there are too many tall women is kind of...What's the word I'm looking for...Ridiculous.
Also, a women meeting physical standards in an army, futuristic or current, is going to be a woman of a certain size.
 

jmarquiso

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Paradoxrifts said:
I've never really understood the obsession people have with Vasquez. She is just simply there to die [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VasquezAlwaysDies]. Created solely to be contrasted against the main character Ripley, so that James Cameron can drive home a point that a woman's 'true strength' comes from her 'maternal instinct'.
It's a particularly male genre that focuses on different aspects/tales of femininity, of which Vasquez represents one.
 

Callate

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All right, then! Let's see more female character models!

Just... Please... Let's not have a round of righteous outrage when they start getting tea-bagged in multiplayer...?
 

mad825

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In FPSs you are mostly in first person I.e you're looking through the eyes. Why would I even care?
 

ZZoMBiE13

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razuk said:
Aside from the idea of Jim's crotch-less lingerie that has been engraved into my mind, I have to agree with everything Jim said. Though I suppose that's nothing new.

How about some props to Halo for having the option of playing female characters since Halo 3?
Oh good. Someone already gave Halo some praise on this topic. Good on you.

While Halo 3 only had a female voice option, Halo Reach went as far as making a different, more slender body type for the female multiplayer characters. Not to mention a number of female voice options for the Firefight mode.
 

Treblaine

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Right on Sterling, the new Aliens game it is a glaring omission to have no female combatants, and if futuristic Black Ops 2 doesn't have any female combatants (even when COD4 had that female fighter pilot) that'll be sad. I mean Black Ops didn't have a single female Viet-Minh guerilla to spite them making up a huge proportion of the fighting force so I'm not holding out for much. Hmm, and COD2 had female combatants in the Russian campaign... why the backsliding?

What I'd really like is a multiplayer shooter with an ENTIRELY female cast. Like when they were making that game Brink, when they decided to go with only one gender of simplicity of customisation, why not go for an all female cast?

gamejunkiey69 said:
Hey, i have an idea. How about in stead of FPS's we make some FPS's? First Person Stabbers? I like a game were i'd use a knife to fight some one else with a knife instead of, As yahtzee says "Me shooting at something really far away and me dying alot"
Zeno Clash?

Or I don't know, knife only games of CoD?

Demo-knighting in Team Fortress 2? Or as a decent spy.

Oh yeah, Team Fortress 2, to spite the huge variation from class to class they are all guys. But there is still a huge effort that has gone into making really robust female version of characters like Pyro and Scout and Medic:

http://www.fugworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2792
 

Twinmill5000

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http://steamcommunity.com/id/arikastack/screenshot/576683685684263574?tab=public

On the topic of games that are shooters and actually have the option to play as a female...

But that's still missing the fucking point entirely.

The point being that, the reason why most AAA FPS' are sausagefests, can be found in the obtuse amounts of grunge, realism, uncanny valleys, and terrifyingly immersive moments in them, coupled with reasons I've stated 3 seperate times, which, also as stated, such reasons can be quickly void in the absence of gritty realism as the effect they have on the stable human brain diminishes quickly.
 

Tradjus

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Not to mention that a lot of really popular first person shooters are set in the -future- where there should be -more- modernization in the roles of different genders in the military, not -less- as it seems when you see no women around at all.
 

42

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Kitsune Hunter said:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe
Does not count.
 

Treblaine

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Paradoxrifts said:
I've never really understood the obsession people have with Vasquez. She is just simply there to die [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VasquezAlwaysDies]. Created solely to be contrasted against the main character Ripley, so that James Cameron can drive home a point that a woman's 'true strength' comes from her 'maternal instinct'.
Where did Cameron say that?

Because I certainly never got the impression that Vasquez died because she wasn't maternal enough, she died because she was a martyr who stayed back fighting off the aliens so the rest of the group could escape but she got cornered. Really, GO BACK AND WATCH THE MOVIE AGAIN, she saves the scene by blocking the corridor laying down continuous fire and then sacrificing herself (or sparing herself from a worse fate?) by detonating a grenade and collapsing the path. Yes she died, everyone died, but she died a heroic death and was instrumental in the transition from the first alien raid on the security station Hicks and Ripley making an almost clear run to the drop-ship.

TVtropes is a badly moderated open-forum, it doesn't even pass for a Wiki, it is the internet equivalent of "I heard from the guy in a pub".

Really the trope at play here is "main character lives" which is a bit of a no-brainer. Ripley was the main lead role and Vasquez was not. Hudson, Apone, Frost, Ferro, everyone on that drop-ship, they were all dead meat the second you saw the actors' billing. Are each of them going to get a trope "Aponealways dies" "Hudsonalways dies". No, the trope is "only the lead roles survive".

Hicks got melted, Bishop got bisected, only the Main lead of the Series and The Cute Kid survived intact. Duh.

Vasquez was not "there to die" any more than anyone else who didn't get top billing.
 

RC1138

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Mistilteinn said:
RC1138 said:


But anecdotes aside, I'm curious about something. Since there've been a number of games that involve the US being invaded by "Evil Nation X", would women be given more options in terms of front line combat if such a scenario were to occur? I don't have any real knowledge about how the military works, but I'd assume they would, given that we'd want to have more people fighting the invaders in order to get them out sooner/more efficiently. But, numbers don't exactly win a war, either, as history as shown, so I don't know...
Probably not. Well depends. If the situation got to that point, where manpower (literally in this supposition) was so low that that option would be on the table, then Special Operation troops would have fallen by the way-side LONG before. Special Operation troops are very, very hard to have an maintain. It's something video games have somewhat... desensitized the average person to. Believe it or not, there are very, very few people in the world, much less one nation's military, that are true Special Operations troopers (Operator's, as the colloquial calls them). They are EXTREMELY expensive and time consuming to train, as they tend to require multiple and unrelated language proficiencies (Russian and German, no common thread between the two. Chinese and Spanish, ect.) Extremely high physical standards, different from a regular soldiers (regular soldiers train for quick extreme bursts, 3 days of combat, a 20 mile march at a very quick pack, small things like that). Special Operations troops typically train for LONG and slow (although not slow by any degree, slower than "norm"). The British SAS's selection final exam is a perfect example. It's a 40 mile hill march in about 20 hours. Totally different skill set and training. Simply put, a soldier from a mechanized unit cannot jump right into a Special Operations troop, nor would a Navy Seal be able to function all that well in a Mechanized Infantry company.

The combat skills are totally different too. Special Operations troops are for lightning strikes, quick and deadly. Most "Operators" rarely carry more than 130 rounds of ammunition (as an MP whose spent alot of time downrange I am keenly aware of their equipment and loadouts). If they get in a firefight that lasts more than 10 minutes, their dead. An infantry man should be able to fight on his full combat load for a day and a half minimum.

The equipment tends to be VERY different. I never had a laptop that keyed me in to a statalite uplink to control a Reaper drone to drop AtG missiles on a target. I had a radio and a map. SFO's do. Well they don't control them, but they can paint "direct" much more closely. We don't carry SOFLAMS. They cost, each about $15k. They are not handing that to a SSG in an MP battalion nor a 2nd LT in an Infantry Platoon. So SFO's cost significantly more to equip and train.

With that in mind, in a situation where the proverbial shit has hit the fan, SFO's go by the wayside. At that point you're happy to just have a stable chain of command and Infantry fighting units. So yes, you may see women in regular infantry, but not in an SFO, because there would be no SFO to speak of. And even still, still unlikely. If things have gotten to that point, surrender starts becoming an option. There is a fine line for officers to dance between fighting on, and leading to slaughter. At that point, the line starts to be very clear.

Sylocat said:
Since you're using realism as the defense, tell me... what's your stance on regen health?
I don't like "health" in most games. My all time favorite title was the original Ghost Recon. God I played that game like a religion. In that game basically a single shot anywhere killed you and if it didn't, it would permanently lower your fighting capacity (give your character a limp, or a reduce accuracy things like that) That said for most games that doesn't work and is obviously not useful in COD or MOH and similar titles. Personally, my favorite health system of all time is Killing Floor's. Health doesn't regen on it's own but you have, as do your teammates, essentially health kits that you can use on yourself or others that constantly regen. So yes, you have "unlimited" health, but you actually have to DO something to be healed and you cannot heal and shot.
 

Rob Jacobs

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RaikuFA said:
gamejunkiey69 said:
Hey, i have an idea. How about in stead of FPS's we make some FPS's? First Person Stabbers? I like a game were i'd use a knife to fight some one else with a knife instead of, As yahtzee says "Me shooting at something really far away and me dying alot"
Thief and the Elder Scrolls series have melee combat and only that.
So bows have become melee?
 

Hugga_Bear

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42 said:
Kitsune Hunter said:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe
Does not count.
In fairness I liked her, she was boss for the few missions (two?) you overheard her in, always there and fucking things up without breaking the ooh rah'ing marines' flow and without being overstated.
I mean yeah it's not a big part but it was still a decent character, you had to go and save her at one point but according to my memory that was because she was a marine who was downed, not because she was a woman and she was still pretty boss while she was sitting there taking on a small army with a pistol...

I agree it wasn't significant but it was still nice to see.

On this topic though I do completely agree, it's ridiculous. I play Monster's Den, the flash game and there were no female characters for the first time with the newest release (Chronicles). Garin justified this fairly with the point that those character models took him an insane amount of time to create and adding an alternate woman for each man would add huge time to release. I say fairly, he could have used female character models for different classes but this was just poor foreplanning, he initially intended to have women in and drew the male models first, time constraints appeared later as the game began to hit feature creep.

Anyway, point is it's occasionally a fair cop in those games where the character model is a HUGE time sink and they lack the resources to produce more. One designer building an entire game can be excused for wanting the release to be a few months closer to estimates. A team of well funded designers should be able to put it in though.
More importantly, as Jim pointed out, it takes VERY LITTLE effort to do it in these types of games. You just put a female face in, change the sliders a little and hey presto. No harder than a male and I agree it's stupid, it's such a petty and small thing and we shouldn't be having this discussion, games without women in should be rarities, not every major title in a spectrum.
 

Treblaine

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Kitsune Hunter said:
Good point Jim, but actually in Call of Duty, they do show women, well actually, a woman in CoD4 as she's hear in the mission, Charlie Don't Surf, then you have to rescue her from a downed helicopter in the mission, Shock and Awe
And the LAST appearance of any female combatant in any COD games for the next half decade. And her role in the game was to get shot up and carried away by the big strong many player protagonist.

Yet when WORLD WAR 3 starts and they need as many people who can carry a rifle as possible, you still don't see any female... anywhere.

And yet the last time COD did a world war they had female combatants on the Eastern front, as was historically accurate.
 

Treblaine

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TWEWER said:
I think you're ignoring the fact that it might be messed up to shoot women.
Aren't you ignoring that fact that I might equally be messed up to shoot men.