Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[Lilani]

I think there are a few key misunderstandings.

1 is that all parties claiming rape are doing so truthfully. I mean this just isn't true. The definition of consent is something people are notoriously fickle with. A woman could say yes now, and still a year later bring you to court claiming the yes was forced.

2 our games don't even truly depict sex yet. Of course depicting a brutal sexual event is wrong when compared to it. How did we come to a point in gaming when murder was acceptable? We grew from the days of knock outs. It's progression (even if it's not positive).

I think rape is atrocious and Jim's points on it not being as bad as murder because "You don't relive it every day after." are spot on. Still once sex becomes more rampant in video games (the visual depiction anyway) I'm pretty sure rape will start showing up more as well.

1. By bringing up false rape claims, you are simply avoiding the real meat of the issue. The problem with bringing up rape isn't the people who made it up, it's the people who wish they made it up. [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word]

2. What is your definition of "truly depict sex?" Subtle depictions like R-rated films, or full-on 3D porn? Because I'm pretty sure there are games that have done both.

I don't really see graphic visual representations of sex as a growing trend in games, though. Because like with movies, there is a point where things go from "rated R" to "X-rated." But no matter how gory a video game is, it will never be rated higher than M, just as movies which are simply gory are rated R.

I'm sure we will be seeing more of sex in games, perhaps not with full-contact polygon-on-polygon action, but rather just shown enough to fulfill the goal of the narrative (like Mass Effect). Though I think games still have a ways to go before being able to work with the topic of sex as consistently well as films. And I am certain rape is never going to be a casually represented thing in games, and neither should it be. Because as Jim pointed out, someone raping someone else is neither redeemable nor justifiable. You can justify murder, and you can even murder without a "victim," like in zombie games. But rape always has a victim, and it can never be glorified.

There's just no reason for it. There is no serious story you can tell with a protagonist who unapologetically rapes people, because if they rape people they will not be the protagonist. Perhaps there is a story in someone who does feel bad for what they did, but it would have to be a very compelling character and story, and depicting the rape outright would be the wrong way to tell a story like that.

 

[mike1921]

3) And frankly, rape in general is a grey area IRL as well. If a woman wants to destroy a man, nothing easier than to seduce him and then blame him of rape. Or just 'change her mind' later or blame it on alcohol or something. No I'm not saying it's happening often, but let's not pretend this doesn't exist. And in this case, a man has no way to defend himself either unless he videotaped her agreement to have the intercourse.

So okay videogames may not be mature enough to tackle the subject... But when are they going to be?

No it's not, that's not rape, it's false accusations, which are always assumed to be awful. We don't see genocide as a grey area because you could falsely accuse someone of it. Quite frankly I do not consider someone who knowingly falsely accuses another of rape deserves to be seen as any better than a rapist btw. Someone who rapes another versus one who makes sure they're stuck in a cell for years on end, significantly raising their chances of getting raped, and then destroys any chance at a normal livelihood they get after that? Seems like a no question to me.

 

[mad825]

This just in: the U.N. declares NPCs have human rights.

Rape is in many different types of mediums with manga being a good example. None of that is really scrutinised or censored yet when it comes to computer games it's like declaring blasphemy.

 

[disappointed]

In CoD, the nature of every death is very clear, but in the multiplayer game, no one really dies. They respawn, and their corpse disappears. The depiction of a violent death is there but it is typically fleeting and distant, as opposed to the lingering slo-mos of Sniper Elite.

And then there's players teabagging, which is clearly some form of rape. But that's not really real either. They respawn and their corpse disappears. It is typically fleeting and distant.

It's not that it isn't real - nothing in games is real. But teabagging is just... I'm not sure what the hell it is really. It's not distant, though thanks for reading. I guess it's just in the same category as trolls referring to rape in their trash talk. Whatever it is, it's not a part of the game as designed, it's an invention of the players and it's a behaviour I'd avoid, more because it's symptomatic of a crappy server than for it recreating rape in a disturbingly vivid fashion. Because it really really doesn't.

And the killing in CoD doesn't come close to the violence of true conflict, although it does seem to aspire to this, which is disturbing.

 

[Adventurer2626]

I have to say splendid job Sterling. I believe I'm 100% behind you on this one. I would call murder more merciful then what amounts to a survived, maimed, torture victim of the mind and sometimes body. It's a matter of more cruelty amounts to more evil in my opinion. I won't be engaging in either but I find it easier to defend killing, murder if a psychological illness is involved, than rape. And for the love of Jim stop saying it to people you stomped on XBLA. Say...schooled or something. It's more classy. Pwned even is a few magnitudes less crass and obscene. It's merely annoying as opposed to morally wrong.

 

[Sheo_Dagana]

I like a lot of what you have to say in this subject, Jim. However, I must disagree on one point - the point you make about a rape victim playing a game with rape in it vs a murder victim playing a game with murder in it. What about soldiers with PTSD playing games with killing in them? The argument falls just a little short there.

Still, I enjoyed this week's Jimquisition. This was a very hard subject to tackle well and I think you did a fantastic job. Thank god for you, sir.

Captcha: gadzooks

Gadzooks! This was a show about rape!

 

[Arakasi]

I'm going to put it simply.
I equate rape to torture.
If a game had my character endure torture or rape, I'd be fine with that, but to have my character commit it? That, I'd be iffy on.

Part of the problem with showing rape or torture is that it forces you to characterise the victim more, which helps make it the taboo it is, and probably should be. When you are carving up people in Prototype they are practically faceless, so it seems irrelevant, but it is just as bad as raping someone in terms of in in-game morality, however I feel that if you were to allow rape on the scale of murder in prototype, it probably wouldn't have a good or even neutral affect outside the game.

As for those saying that rape is actually worse than murder in terms of its violation of the Golden Rule[url], I don't know how much you value your life, but I'd rather be raped or tortured and be able to continue my life than be murdered.

In short, it is folly to say that murder is worse than rape, but rape should probably stay out as a feature in videogames (except under certain circumstances, see top paragraph).

 

[bimon_1234567]

Now that was a sterling video. I lift my chapeau claque in you honor sir.

 

[Darklord358]

Rape, because even villians need boundaries

 

[Steelcreed]

A greatly argued and well thought out video, Jim. You've treated the topic with great discretion and forethought, which is fantastic to see on an internet which can often be filled with knee-jerk reactions. However, whilst I think I agree with you on the points you make about rape being a trickier subject then murder, you raised a brief point that I think could develop the argument further.

Murder and rape are the same thing. Or at least, murder as it is portrayed in videogames can be easily likened to rape. You already mentioned that rape and killing are both domination fantasies, a way to express power dynamics between victim and victor, obviously with the intention of making the player feel like the victor. I believe you are one hundred percent correct; it's a power fantasy through and through.

However, I think that point also goes hand in hand with the fact that violence is fetishized in games. Ignoring the already Freudian symbolism of swords and guns as is (a little too obvious at this point), the act of death has been portrayed in an increasingly pornographic manner. With the popularity of quick-time events and cut scene, close up executions of the enemy, players are basically forced to watch the grisly dispatching of their foes, coupled with dramatic cinematography and what are essentially money-shots of the blood spatters. Whilst extreme examples include the visceral X-ray shots of Mortal Kombat and Sniper Elite V2, even games which are considered 'intelligent', like Deus Ex: Human Revolution, are guilty of these methods of display.

I think this invalidates many of the points you made about rape's superiority in terms of 'evilness' to murder. Violence can be impersonal ? very few games treat it as such, given how difficult it is to make something impersonal when it requires direct action by the player to achieve. Death is quick ? you must have seen the Gears and God of War executions? These methods of death are anything but quick, stretching out the process for as long as possible without breaking flow, to give the player as excellent a view of the carnage as possible. It is a sexual viewpoint ? close up, physical, an act of domination. This is hardly a new point; indeed, many critics seem to think that is why rape has become a taunt. Because, you're not just killing, you're also raping in a way.

My point is this; I'm not sure whether this discussion is purely about rape being represented in video games. Anything can be represented in any art form, there shouldn't be any limits to portrayal and discussion. But it does mean we have to rethink our attitudes to the glorification of player actions. Why should the player character always be right? When we have treated both issues with equal weight, that's when we solve the problem, rather than repeatedly discounting one and accepting the other.

 

[Steelcreed]

Oh, and in answer to both points about violence being normalised and rape being mentally scarring - is that your experience from talking to those people who've actually taken a human life in the real world? My encounters with reports from soldiers say that actually taking a life is an extremely difficult thing to do and you're never the same afterwards. I think those points seriously undervalue what is actually involved in the action of killing.

And whilst you can argue that videogames desensitize the player through distance, that same point could be applied to rape. I'm not demolishing the point, I'm just saying it requires a bit more thought.

 

[AbstractStream]

I don't see how there could be a grey area with rape. It's mind boggling.

Quite the difficult subject to tackle, Jim. Great video, you did very very well. I just want to give you a hug!

 

[smartalec]

Funnily enough, rape is the original fate worse than death. It's the first subject to which that phrase, 'a fate worse than death', was applied. With pretty good reason.

 

[MasterOfHisOwnDomain]

Well, the series has really come in leaps and bounds IMO. Never took an interest when it began, but if it continues to deal with the wide variety of interesting topics it has done in the past few weeks then I will be sticking around to enjoy them. Thanks Jim.

 

[Gunjester]

You don't rape in self-defense.
I could defend a game with rape IN it but not a game that is ABOUT rape.

Summed up my attitude. Thank you.

 

[Grahav]

But in the case of rape, I would say it has very little to do with clothing, and more to do with a lack of awareness of one's surroundings, and a dangerous sense of comfort in situations where one should be wary. I'm willing to bet just as much rape happens when some woman dressed in sweatpants decides to take out her trash in the middle of the night as happens to drunken women wandering home from a club. Spreading awareness helps to prevent this. This is especially true when you consider the campaign to warn people about keeping an eye on their drinks to avoid date-rape drugs. Many of these women probably thought they were being safe by traveling by taxi, some of them might have even had mace.

The victim's actions should be criticized because stupidity/ignorance shouldn't be ignored or encouraged. It's essentially the same thing as telling someone they were stupid for leaving their Mercedes unlocked in a bad neighborhood overnight: the criminal is the one who committed the wrongdoing; the person who left it unlocked is only guilty of being stupid. Same goes for not covering up the pad when you enter your pin #, or not chopping up credit cards.

People don't like these arguments because they find them offensive, and I'm sympathetic. The victim has usually been through enough, and it doesn't help to criticize them: they've almost assuredly learned their lesson. But when the police chief warns women not to repeat that person's mistake, he is hardly legitimizing rape. I guess someone might take that to be 'mansplaining', but it's really just common sense, and sometimes people need to be given a good fright to make them wake up. Sure, no one in their right mind would do such a thing, but the victims are often drunk. Putting a bit of fear into them might influence them take more precautions before they go out, like bringing a tazer, or using a buddy-system.

Sure, it's condescending to tell women what to do, but sometimes people need to be condescended to and scared. And no, it's not a gender thing. The same applies to men in various other circumstances. A man should be equally criticized for getting mugged after wandering around drunk in a bad neighborhood.

Good point. People are mixing "use common sense" advices with insensivity. Not surprising considering the theme.

Good point. I bet that if someone made a videogame about torture, there would be voices hailing it for 'raising awereness', 'artistic freedom' and stuff, while the same voices would still condemn games about rape.

Besides, there exists a ton of videogames about torture (see any flashgame portal) and nobody really raises an eyebrow, while similar flash games about rape or (for example) ethnic violence are immediately shunned. It's not that I approve of the latter games, but really let's be fair here...

Not only portals. All the platforms have games with torture.

Another good point. Isn't rape just a specific kind of torture? If you think there is nothing as horrible, some dictatorships did this:

Warning: Torture description

Spoiler

Removing a tooth, and placing a dental drill in the cavity direct to the nerve. You would be selling your own mother out after this.

I do have a tool for that. I keep it in my bedside table's drawer. It's pink, latex and I call it MIGHTY MAN NOODLE.

Of course, the point I'm trying to make here is that this definition of rape is silly and it should be changed, because, as you rightly say, women are perfectly capable of sexually violating men and other women alike.

So, apart from that, I generally agree with Jim. So yay. And all that.

warning: Rape case.

Spoiler

Heard about a woman who did this to a girl using a rose.

I think the problem with the murder themes is that, while we (presumably) don't insult the dead, we may be a little insensitive to the families of the killed. Would play a slicing ninja next to a person who had his uncle murdered and chopped in pieces (happened in my country, recently)?

My points:

1. Good manners seem to have be the central theme here, and the videogame and online worlds seem to be lacking it. You simply don't made heavy jokes with people you barely know, and even when you really know a person you just are aware of which toes you can or cannot step on.

2. The ESRB is usefull. It presents the themes to you. Also previews and reviews. Don't play the games that make you feel bad. Encourage genres, themes and characters that you think are under represented.

3. My fear. Censorship. A human brain is a scary thing. Sometimes I just want to go crazy, in a game or in daydreaming. I think the people who are over defensive about their right to use the R word think that they are being considered bad people or even outright rapists or murderers for simulating and thinking violence.

4. Murder and killing are power plays also. You hold power over the very existence of a person. Being a fight only proves that you were the "superior one". Being "justified" is a free pass to enjoy a nasty instinct.

Really people. The executions of Poseidon and Zeus in God of War 3 aren't heinous just because Kratos didn't stick his dick in them? The despair and screams of the beatings are really nasty.

 

[joeman098]

Remeber guys maybe just dont rape! words to live by thanks jim

 

[TAdamson]

I disagree. If you ban rape and rape discussions and somehow remove it from life entirely, why not do the same for dentistry, dentists, everything to do with teeth? I mean, it's pretty traumatic, painful, everybody hates it... Or paper-cuts. Man, those hurt.
Death on the other hand is a final full stop, a big ending, there is nothing (as far as I know) beyond death. There are no chances to heal yourself emotionally and physically.

Tl;dr: Death-end, rape-pain, thus saying rape is NONO while death is ok is hypocrisy.

Is the paper-cut going to victimize you, demean you, degrade you, traumatize you?
Does the dentist expose you to potentially life threatening diseases?
Do end up potentially pregnant from stubbing your toe?

There is also a defence for murder called justifiable homicide and most games try to make the act of killing a justified as possible. There is no such thing as justifiable rape.

And look up the word hypocrisy. It does not mean what you think it means. The word you are looking for is fallacious.

 

[Dfskelleton]

I totally agree. I mean, some games have tried taking it on, but it's usually been with antagonists, and it's never center stage. Like you said, it's a good way to make us hate a villain. In fact, one of my favorite moments in ANY game is the scene in L.A. Noire, at the finale of the traffic desk, where you must chase a child molester through an enormous, decrepit movie set, constantly bounding across falling scaffolds and props. Not only was it amazing because of the enormnity of the set and the epic orchestra in the background, but because it was chasing a villain I truly hated. L.A. Noire was a good game, but that one scene was simply stunning.
Thank God for you, Jim.

 

[Itsthefuzz]

Right, sorry its just when someone finds the caps lock it tends to suggest theyve hot the angry eyes on.

Yeah because emphasizing a few words = caps-locks.

If I message my friends and type "Come on guys, we REALLY have to start cleaning our plates after we eat." That's not caps locks, that's emphasizing "really".