Jimquisition: Rape vs. Murder

[Katya Topolkaraeva]

Honestly, i think people find rape not to be ok (even though it is basically just sex with one of the people not wanting it) while murder is ok (this being in video games as that is what we are discussing) for the same basic reasons that a movie can get away with a lot of violence, but hardly any sex. Basically people have a stick up their buts when it comes to sex. And unwanted sex? That's just sooo baaaad. Give me a break. If it's ok to kill people in video games, torture exc, there is no LOGICAL reason that it shouldn't be as ok to rape them.

As an example of where rape would, in my opinion, be totally appropriate: take Kratos in God Of War III. We can probably mostly agree that he is a total complete asshole. He goes about dispensing with other gods for no good reason... mostly slowly by bashing their heads into the ground until they are mush. He kills random town people for no reason at all (and by he, i of course mean you, as a player). He grabs a random princess who is begging for mercy and handcuffs her to the cog wheel thingie so that her body is smashed to bits and blocks open the door for him to progress (cuz he can't use any other bit of furniture apparently) And he comes upon Aphrodite (after brutally killing pretty much all of her family) and what do they do? They have sex. Personally i was really hoping in some weird boss battle with Aphrodite that centered around/resulted in raping her. It would have been awesome and fitting with the character and the general progression in the game. I was disappointed it did not happen. (p.s. i am a girl)

 

[Comrade_Beric]

Actually, in retrospect over the last two days, I believe I have changed my mind on this issue. When I first posted, I started with the words "I admit that rape has no place in entertainment." I believe I was in error. I can no longer say that rape situations have or don't have a place in entertainment, but it wouldn't matter because it is not my place to make that decision. The reason for that is simple: Video games are not real, they are fantasy. If someone has the inability to recognize this fact, then the issues lay with the consumer, not the entertainment. The simple solution to this has to be clear(er) markings on things that might offend someone. The man in this relevant escapist article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word] has a right to be informed about a potential purchase or piece of entertainment he may be about to consume. The warning needs to be upfront and nigh-unavoidable. What is not the solution is demonizing those who may not be as offended by the material as he rightfully happens to be.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

I agree with Jim. Rape is very much different from murder, in that it is basically an unnecessary act. Murder can be justified in violent or perilous situations,

PEOPLE, LISTEN! MURDER=/=KILLING.

Murder is a specific type of killing. Killing armed combatants in war is not, I repeat, NOT murder. Murder is unjustified killing. A justified killing is called justifiable homicide: it cannot be murder if it is justified. Manslaughter is an accidental killing. And killing armed enemy combatants in war is just called doing your duty.

The term 'murder' really shouldn't set soldiers off, because they (ideally) haven't murdered anyone, even if they have killed enemy combatants.

(Sorry to single you out Machine Man, you just provided an easy example. I realize that by 'murder' in the quote above you probably just meant 'killing' the way I'm using it. My point is semantic. However, it was a point I felt the need to make.)

 

[Elithraradril]

@Comrade_Beric, I think that's the point: either we all acknowledge that games are just virtual representation of one's fantasies, or most of us should be put in chains as dangerous lunatics with tendency to kill innocent virtual people. If we consider something to be "too evil" to be put on screen, than we're questioning the basic line of defense for violent games - "it's just a game". It's up to developers if they want to create such games, but saying they are "too evil to exist" we just admit that games can be threat for the people in "real world" and I think we all know where it goes from there...

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

Honestly, i think people find rape not to be ok (even though it is basically just sex with one of the people not wanting it) while murder is ok (this being in video games as that is what we are discussing) for the same basic reasons that a movie can get away with a lot of violence, but hardly any sex. Basically people have a stick up their buts when it comes to sex. And unwanted sex? That's just sooo baaaad. Give me a break. If it's ok to kill people in video games, torture exc, there is no LOGICAL reason that it shouldn't be as ok to rape them.

I think you're right. The reason why we're more uncomfortable with rape is because it is more of a cultural taboo, not because it is actually worse than murder.

Some people make the argument that rape is objectively worse than murder because it leaves a person with lifelong effects. The implication of this view is that people who have been raped would be better off dead. That seems like a real asshole-y sentiment to me. Killing someone means that they can never experience anything good again. While rape is no doubt terrible, I sincerely doubt that anyone who is raped would be best served by killing themselves.

It all just comes down to the specific values of the society you're in. The society we live in inherits most of its values from the Judeo-Christian tradition, which is really uptight about sex, but has a long sordid history with violence.

Let's imagine a society that is both promiscuous and pacifistic. I don't think it's hard to imagine that rape would be far less taboo in that society than murder, just because people would be more familiar with sex whereas violence would seem more alien.

As far as depictions of rape in the media goes, it depends upon the context. To say that all depictions of rape should be avoided is to whitewash it and pretend it doesn't exist, which is far from being a good thing.

 

[742]

pre-video thing totally unjustified; you did fine. also: i know i wont be reading PA again til i see something about a retraction of that shit. if extra creditz wasnt there i would seriously consider blocking the whole site for my network.

 

[Treblaine]

With rape, there aren't really any other emotions you can draw on. There's the insane level of evil and disregard for humanity of the rapist, and there's the utter torment of the victim. There isn't anything dramatic or subversive there. It isn't a story, it's a travesty.

It is possible to pay honor to those who participated in war with movies and games that have war. You can't really pay honor to those who were raped by making movies and games that include rape. They are similar in the areas of trauma to be sure, but war is so much more complicated. Rape is horribly simple.

Deliverance, Pulp Fiction, American History X, Girl with Dragon Tatoo, Boys Don't Cry. All have rape as a central and pivotal plot element in very compelling stories. You can't just cut the rape aspect out. These aren't "simple". And there is no easy way to honour soldiers in war, making a fun game out of it isn't the most effective ways.

Perhaps I was wrong about rape in film. But if even war is difficult to honor in games (as I said, it's possible), when why is rape any less sensitive?

Well it's a pretty big discussion about depiction of war that would go completely off topic, but generally there isn't a huge outcry about how games and film depict war and I couldn't even begin to go into whether honouring is even be the right depiction of war. The needs of veterans of the trauma of war are many and varied, but ultimately it is for each one a persona challenge to sort out their psyche with with counselling and time. The media cannot play psychotherapist for everyone that has suffered severe trauma or hardship.

The same principals of how rape works in those films also works in other media - including games - where you have characters of different motivations and threats. Films and games are not forms of mass counselling, they are for telling stories to a wide audience.

With time and counselling, PTSD veterans and rape survivors will be able to hear narratives about fictional people who suffered similar hardships as them, without being crippled by flashbacks. That may take years or their entire life, but in the mean time the appropriate thing to do is they avoid media featuring such content, not that all the media self-censor for how people might be especially sensitive. Games can't all censors themselves because some have photosensitive epilepsy, they can only warn against content.

 

[TazTheTerrible]

Maybe two wrongs don't make a right. Maybe yes, it is bad that video games allow and even endorse such unjustified violence and murder but that is no reason for the industry to start allowing rape as well. But the point is we established that as bad as the violence is in video games it is not directly a problem, bar other personal problems (Norway killer is responsible, not video games), should not the same apply to rape in games?

Isn't it that by admitting that you can't have rape in games, you're admitting that what you do in games changes you as a person... so too all unjustified or immoral things in games should not be allowed. We might be giving ammunition to the censors.

Since violent videogames haven't turned the global population into rabid, psychotic mass-murderers yet, I think it's safe to assume there's a serious difference between fictive games and reality.

My point is that our issues with rape in popular media stem more from a cultural discomfort about the topic than from actual ethical issues.

Rape isn't the *same* as murder, but a lot of the arguments about its place in popular media are analogous. And I think the strong differentiation that pleas like the one in this video try to make are more based on that we *want* it to be different because of emotional issues, then shape our arguments to support it, rather than strictly logical rationale.

Therefore my position remains: don't censor any of it that isn't directly harming anyone.

 

[Treblaine]

Honestly, i think people find rape not to be ok (even though it is basically just sex with one of the people not wanting it) while murder is ok (this being in video games as that is what we are discussing) for the same basic reasons that a movie can get away with a lot of violence, but hardly any sex. Basically people have a stick up their buts when it comes to sex. And unwanted sex? That's just sooo baaaad. Give me a break. If it's ok to kill people in video games, torture exc, there is no LOGICAL reason that it shouldn't be as ok to rape them.

As an example of where rape would, in my opinion, be totally appropriate: take Kratos in God Of War III. We can probably mostly agree that he is a total complete asshole. He goes about dispensing with other gods for no good reason... mostly slowly by bashing their heads into the ground until they are mush. He kills random town people for no reason at all (and by he, i of course mean you, as a player). He grabs a random princess who is begging for mercy and handcuffs her to the cog wheel thingie so that her body is smashed to bits and blocks open the door for him to progress (cuz he can't use any other bit of furniture apparently) And he comes upon Aphrodite (after brutally killing pretty much all of her family) and what do they do? They have sex. Personally i was really hoping in some weird boss battle with Aphrodite that centered around/resulted in raping her. It would have been awesome and fitting with the character and the general progression in the game. I was disappointed it did not happen. (p.s. i am a girl)

Why is is almost every person here assumes rape in video games would be the playable protagonist being the rapist? Why is there that assumption, is it a prejudice of why people think rape would be wanted... the idea that rape would only be wanted to surreptitiously fulfil the player's sadistic sex fantasy?

What if Kratos got raped? Could you deal with that?

That is literally turning the scenario completely around and that so many people refuse to even consider that possibility shows how far we may have to go.

There haven't been any mainstream motion pictures where the lead role have been depicted graphically raping anyone, but the protagonists have been threatened with rape or actually raped. It added a layer of humanity to Marcellus Wallace and Butch when they were faced with rape horror. That is what needs to be addressed first and actually adds something to the story, while letting the protagonist indulge in the ultimate selfish crime of rape does nothing but dehumanise the character as only by disregarding all human sympathy can they do such a thing, which makes them unrelatable to the audience or any other character in the fiction.

 

[Treblaine]

"I'm saying the distinction is as meaningless"

The distinction is one that YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY BROUGHT UP of the child aspect. Now its "people raping people" is another contrived attempt at getting child rape included (people is both adults and children) in the discussion. No. Stop it. Just please stop this. Drop this derailing tangent of trying to include the depiction of child rape in games, You have been TOLD it is a non-issue as it is totally illegal so you can't even go there.

This thread is tricky enough and you are going there, THERE of all places. Have you NO TACT AT ALL!!?!?

Yes, I repeatedly brought it up because you've been repeatedly chopping it off for no good reason. Child rape should be included, there's no reason to remove it. I am well aware I'm getting child rape included. Also, not everyone lives in the same country as you, and whether something is illegal does not bar it from the discussions of "should it be allowed?" and "is it right?" and "is it worse than murder?". I like how apparently if I'm "TOLD" something that means I'm supposed to agree with it by the way. In that case, I am telling you, I am right.

There's no reason to discuss it, but there's no reason to pull it out either, and I will not stop it. This is not a matter of tact, rape includes child rape, the video is about rape versus murder, and doesn't really specify who is being raped by age group, so child rape is included.

Fine you want to go into the area of the legitimacy of child pornography, fine, you reap what you sow, don't be surprised when moderator retribution costs you.

 

[Doclector]

You don't rape in self-defense.
I could defend a game with rape IN it but not a game that is ABOUT rape.

True. There's plenty of possibility for it to be explored in gaming, but it must be handled carefully and sesitively, with a whole f*** ton of thought about the feelings of, for want of a less negative word, "victims" who play it/hear about it. In all cases, whether the rape is a part of the games narrative, or whether, for some reason, it's the main part (say, an art game about a victim coping, or a game where the main character kills someone as revenge for rape, but never when rape is the objective, because that could never be handled in any other way than wrong) it must be handled with extreme care.

 

[Treblaine]

Maybe two wrongs don't make a right. Maybe yes, it is bad that video games allow and even endorse such unjustified violence and murder but that is no reason for the industry to start allowing rape as well. But the point is we established that as bad as the violence is in video games it is not directly a problem, bar other personal problems (Norway killer is responsible, not video games), should not the same apply to rape in games?

Isn't it that by admitting that you can't have rape in games, you're admitting that what you do in games changes you as a person... so too all unjustified or immoral things in games should not be allowed. We might be giving ammunition to the censors.

Since violent videogames haven't turned the global population into rabid, psychotic mass-murderers yet, I think it's safe to assume there's a serious difference between fictive games and reality.

My point is that our issues with rape in popular media stem more from a cultural discomfort about the topic than from actual ethical issues.

Rape isn't the *same* as murder, but a lot of the arguments about its place in popular media are analogous. And I think the strong differentiation that pleas like the one in this video try to make are more based on that we *want* it to be different because of emotional issues, then shape our arguments to support it, rather than strictly logical rationale.

Therefore my position remains: don't censor any of it that isn't directly harming anyone.

So, from the ethical aspect of public safety in how media might contribute to certain crimes, it's no worse having a game where you play a rapist than all the existing games which clearly let you be a slaver, murderer, torturer or even 9/11 style terrorist and all other such awful indefensible things.

Still wouldn't use such a mechanic though wouldn't refuse to play a game with such a mechanic. I always play through games maxing out morality and honour.

But would it help or imped the cause of defending video games from censors, who don't always ban for ethical reason of what my cause harm, but moral reasons of what offends their personal ideologies and sensibilities.

 

[Strazdas]

I can see your point but i disagree with it. Then again, your of American origins, where cutting a person to peace's and eating is is rated bellow showing a nipple.

You may not have Noticed, but Jim Sterling is English. He relatively recently moved to the United States... but sentiments are similar in England/United Kingdom though a stronger bias against both sex and violence.

Thanks for clarification, must have mixed it up with Mobiebob or soemthing.

 

[Smeatza]

The Dave Chappelle skit is nothing to do with rape WHATSOEVER.
I am very dissappointed in Jim for incinuating something so untrue. And it's those kind of over-sensitive, sensationalist judgements that cause critics to not take the issue as seriously as they should.

Apart from that a very interesting video.

 

[Nimzabaat]

I found it interesting that Jim doesn't seem to know what constitutes murder. Most video games have a lot of death and destruction, but it's not "murder". Killing an enemy combatant in a warzone (ie Call of Duty except for that one level with the civilians which can be skipped, Battlefield, etc) isn't "murder" and it isn't illegal. Likewise killing someone who is actively trying to kill you (Max Payne, Condemned etc) isn't "murder" either. To paraphrase Captain Tightpants "If someone tries to kill you, you try to kill them right back!".

More on topic rape is the only crime for which there can't be any justification. If you have an able hand to hold another person down... you have an able hand. There you go.

 

[Hugga_Bear]

People are still messing up what rape is in this thread. Rape doesn't mean "pin you down and fuck you". Rape is nonconsensual sex. Yes, that's grey territory, it's horribly grey. Go to a club, hit on someone, head back to theirs, have sex. No one ever said yes? Non consensual. Maybe she's really drunk, maybe he's really drunk, are they in the right frame of mind to consent? These sound like bullshit but they're serious issues, people are charged with rape after going home with someone because that someone was just so drunk. It's not just forcing something to happen and it's not drugging someone, it's any sex which is nonconsensual (or any penetration now).

Also women are perfectly capable of rape, as a guy who's been raped by a woman (spiked drinks, who would have thought?) fuck anyone that says otherwise.

This isn't a fun topic, it's not an easy topic either but it's something we need to look at. People upset over the use of rape as a serious mechanic are being idiots, it should be allowed in video games, it's a terrifying thing, it strips you of power but what's most important is that it's real and it's common. Stripping it from videogames doesn't help anyone, the best route is to encourage a tasteful approach to it, rape is disgusting so don't trivialise it but if it's fitting then use it. Video games are an interactive story telling medium, tell the story.

I can't support games that fully trivialise rape though, I agree that it's darker than murder and until rape is considered correctly in the public eye (all too often rape isn't taken seriously) trivialising it is going to do too much damage, at least that's how I feel. Once rape is as understood as murder, rape games away.

 

[JoaoJatoba]

@Comrade_Beric, I think that's the point: either we all acknowledge that games are just virtual representation of one's fantasies, or most of us should be put in chains as dangerous lunatics with tendency to kill innocent virtual people. If we consider something to be "too evil" to be put on screen, than we're questioning the basic line of defense for violent games - "it's just a game". It's up to developers if they want to create such games, but saying they are "too evil to exist" we just admit that games can be threat for the people in "real world" and I think we all know where it goes from there...

That's why I don't find any difference between a rape game and a sex role-play or hardcore S&M. Why can you say that between sane adults that trust each other a rape simulation isn't immoral and a rape game is?

Nevertheless, I consider some limitations may take place like no child rape game, or no glorification of the act. Games are a mass media, and as such it has a great reach.

 

[mike1921]

"I'm saying the distinction is as meaningless"

The distinction is one that YOU HAVE REPEATEDLY BROUGHT UP of the child aspect. Now its "people raping people" is another contrived attempt at getting child rape included (people is both adults and children) in the discussion. No. Stop it. Just please stop this. Drop this derailing tangent of trying to include the depiction of child rape in games, You have been TOLD it is a non-issue as it is totally illegal so you can't even go there.

This thread is tricky enough and you are going there, THERE of all places. Have you NO TACT AT ALL!!?!?

Yes, I repeatedly brought it up because you've been repeatedly chopping it off for no good reason. Child rape should be included, there's no reason to remove it. I am well aware I'm getting child rape included. Also, not everyone lives in the same country as you, and whether something is illegal does not bar it from the discussions of "should it be allowed?" and "is it right?" and "is it worse than murder?". I like how apparently if I'm "TOLD" something that means I'm supposed to agree with it by the way. In that case, I am telling you, I am right.

There's no reason to discuss it, but there's no reason to pull it out either, and I will not stop it. This is not a matter of tact, rape includes child rape, the video is about rape versus murder, and doesn't really specify who is being raped by age group, so child rape is included.

Fine you want to go into the area of the legitimacy of child pornography, fine, you reap what you sow, don't be surprised when moderator retribution costs you.

No, it's common sense that drawn anything is legitimate, regardless of what it is. Mods be damned (although I don't see mods dropping the ban hammer over opinions of fictional children), there is no justifiable reason to think drawn anything (that isn't meant to look like any specific person) should be illegal, regardless of your country's imbecilic laws. Finally one aspect where I could look at the UK and say "my country isn't that bad"

If a legitimate game like GTA had you rape an adult that'd be horrible and distasteful and stupid of rockstar, if it had you rape a child that'd be horrible and distasteful and stupid of of rockstar. If a game that exists solely as a rape simulator had you rape an adult that'd be perfectly fine because it's just porn (which should be exempt from the "horrible, stupid, distasteful" classifications in most respects. Obviously actual harm caused is not exempt.) to begin with and no one was actually harmed, if a game that exists solely as a rape simulator had you rape a child that'd be perfectly fine because it's just porn, no one actually harmed.

 

[spookydom]

Sorry this is off topic. Can anybody tell me what the game is at 3:08 on the video? Brilliant discusion btw.

 

[Elithraradril]

Nevertheless, I consider some limitations may take place like no child rape game, or no glorification of the act. Games are a mass media, and as such it has a great reach.

I'm afraid there's no such option in democratic society. What we actually consider here is the policy of publishers and developers that we, as gamers, would like to see. However we can't forbid creating and publishing such games, since this would be the violation of basic right of speech and free will. We need to remember we're talking about sex abuse of non-existing characters, so there's no law protecting them. It's like considering of banning books or blogs with such ero fantasies. It would be nothing else than telling people what they are supposed to think and dream about event if, in reality, they are just some harmless sociopathic weirdos.