Jimquisition: The Creepy Cull of Female Protagonists

[DjinnFor]

You basically described what is the issue. And another reason why there needs to be videogames with female protagonists.

Which reason are you referring to?

 

[Quellist]

Fucking A Jim, though ironically EA who usually get a big dose of shit for their actions are probably one of the better companies for allowing female protagonists to have hetero relationships (Dragon Age, Mass Effect etc). Though i guess that might be a side effect of the fanbase for the whole RPG genre tend to be people who enjoy exploring all kinds of different roles.

I guess this allows me to feel smug and superior because (hetero guy here) seeing Jade on the cover of Beyond Good and Evil was what made me pick the game up, thinking "She looks pretty cool" and when i won the top hovercraft race and Hub yelled "well done miss Jade, i could kiss you!" i remember thinking "you and me both, buddy"

Hearing Remember Me has the main character in a hetero relationship is just so awesome and its tragic that its so rare that its awesome. But tragic, awesome or both i'm def getting that game.

I sometimes wonder, am i weird because i enjoy playing a female character to the point that i might purchase a game that i'm marginal on just because the protagonist is female?

 

[Bayushi_Kouya]

DREAMFALL WAS MENTIONED! ::Gives Jim virtual hugs::

I really enjoyed the shit out of Dreamfall, and not because it was a good game -- it was really mediocre, IMHO -- but it was the first game I played with a female protagonist (two, IPOF), where I really stopped and asked myself what I would do and how I would act if I really was Zoe. The relationships in particular, stood out for me -- she has an ex named Reza at the start of the game, and we are left to wonder how he became an ex, so I decided it's because he's a selfish jerk who doesn't care about me enough. Then there's a new guy, Damian, later on, who's clearly the hero of his own story but teams up with you to your mutual benefit. Just about everyone in that game, with the exception of the annoying sidekick, is well-written. ::Nostalgia smile::

 

[Technicka]

You know, this is why I don't like sexism threads. Should women have more main roles in gaming? Sure. Is the industry unfair sometimes? Sadly. Does it need to be addressed? Without a doubt. But the thing is, we can never talk about it in a civil, polite manner. It always boils down to bitter sarcasm, insults, strawmen, and just plain anger. If we can stop this, then I think we can confront the issue much better.

What your doing is tone policing, a common tactic in derailing marginalized people from their right to be angry at being treated as lesser beings. That does nothing more than keep the debates and arguments from continuing. An oppressed person does not owe niceness to a person that is defending the system that disenfranchises them. Just look at the madness that happened with Sarkeesian. Her series is informative without being confrontational (beyond the fact that she's calling out sexism). And yet, she had to deal with accusations of fraud, death/rape threats, and constant harassment. So you'll forgive me for not side-eyeing the notion that being nice about this issue is somehow the better option.

You need both those that will calmly educate, and those that will get in your face and call you out for being a bigot.

DjinFor, your post basically implies that me, and all women, shouldn't play videogames because we can't immedesimate since they have a strictly male point of view.

Don't you see it's WRONG?

Not sure what "immedestimate" means. Did your post get cut off?

And no, I'm not arguing that you shouldn't play games. I'm arguing that the emotional impact of the games will generally be reduced under certain circumstances and that this inability to empathize is a massive elephant in the room that all publishers have to keep in mind when looking at their bottom line.

I didn't note this, but this inability to empathize with people dramatically different from you is an inherent part of being human and generally has to be trained out of you if you ever want to get rid of it. Calling it sexist is missing the point.

That is such a lazy argument. Especially when you have this thread here where a number of us very female gamers are pointing out that we've been playing with male leads nearly all our lives, and have no issue with that. But you, a guy, just can't handle the idea of playing a chick. It just short circuits your mind, and ruins the game for you.

Do you not see how this defense is little more than a backhanded insult to your own mental capacities? Straight white dudes can't get over a potential scene where the female lead kisses a dude. But women have done it for decades. LGBTQ folk have done it for decades. People of colour have done it for decades. We can do it, and you can't. Is that really something to brag about?

 

[Erttheking]

You know, this is why I don't like sexism threads. Should women have more main roles in gaming? Sure. Is the industry unfair sometimes? Sadly. Does it need to be addressed? Without a doubt. But the thing is, we can never talk about it in a civil, polite manner. It always boils down to bitter sarcasm, insults, strawmen, and just plain anger. If we can stop this, then I think we can confront the issue much better.

What your doing is tone policing, a common tactic in derailing marginalized people from their right to be angry at being treated as lesser beings. That does nothing more than keep the debates and arguments from continuing. An oppressed person does not owe niceness to a person that is defending the system that disenfranchises them. Just look at the madness that happened with Sarkeesian. Her series is informative without being confrontational (beyond the fact that she's calling out sexism). And yet, she had to deal with accusations of fraud, death/rape threats, and constant harassment. So you'll forgive me for not side-eyeing the notion that being nice about this issue is somehow the better option.

You need both those that will calmly educate, and those that will get in your face and call you out for being a bigot.

You do know that I'm calling both sides out on this right? People on both sides of the debate need to calm down and explain what they're talking about calmly and rationally, so that actually progress can be made, because frankly there's so much rage and anger going on, I honestly have no idea what both sides are even talking about anymore. The countless flame wars, shouting and insults on this website have accomplished nothing, I don't see what another one will do. Also, I thought that a lot of people's general opinion on Sarkeesian on this was that it was kinda bland and rather "well...duh" And I'm talking about the Escapist here, not the entire population of the Human race, the Escapist, where we're supposed to abide by a code of conduct.

We have an oversupply of the second and none of the first. Also, since when has gotten in the face of people and yelling at them ever solved anything?

 

[Erttheking]

Ertheking, sorry but heated discussion is unavoidable in an internet discussion. You're doing it right now, yourself.

There is a difference between a heated discussion and a flamewar. There's nothing wrong with a heated discussion so long as people can maintain a certain level of civility. Heck, debates can be rather nice when both sides are willing to be polite, I had a rather pleasant chat with Phasmal earlier in this thread.

 

[Erttheking]

Well, and since we're not having a flamewar, let's discuss about the topic at hand instead of discussing a potential flamewar.

Sad to say, but this thread has devolved into a flamewar, too many insults just being thrown around. This always happens.

 

[Rombor]

Personally, I don't see the logic in why box art or any other video game art featuring girls would be unappealing to gamers. I'd say having a female on the front of the game I'd buy would not matter at all to me, or if it did, it would make me want it more. In my opinion, females on the front of games boxes should be a wise marketing tool. Do note this applies no matter their clothing.

Concerning the fact that males playing as females having romantic relationships with men would feel awkward, well I can just say that personally, when I will play through Mass Effect 3 for the second time, I will play as FemShep, and she will be a straight female romancing a male. I don't have an issue with seeing "myself", in the form of a female character, kissing or having sex with a male. Personally I like to experience things from different perspectives, and this doesn't make me homosexual, though if it did, well, alright.

What I also think is that wanting all characters in a game, male or female, to be as sexy as possibly possible, is not in itself a bad thing. I like girls, I like seeing sexy girls in video games too. And I don't mind if my role would be a sexy male in the game. Me, I think beauty or sexiness is always in itself a positive thing. Now if you want to draw the conclusion that females exist only as eye candy for males, that's your own issue. Having watched countless hours, we're probably talking at least hundreds here, of hardcore pornography, having bought an issue of Playboy as late as today, I can say that I don't understand the least a conclusion saying sexy girls make me think of them only as eye candy. They are eye candy, but a lot more than that. Consequently there is nothing saying sexy girls in games can't be interesting, intelligent characters. Just look at the aforementioned Mass Effect series. The girls there are in my opinion all pretty strong, intelligent, and very sexy.

 

[Technicka]

You do know that I'm calling both sides out on this right? People on both sides of the debate need to calm down and explain what they're talking about calmly and rationally, so that actually progress can be made, because frankly there's so much rage and anger going on, I honestly have no idea what both sides are even talking about anymore. The countless flame wars, shouting and insults on this website have accomplished nothing, I don't see what another one will do. Also, I thought that a lot of people's general opinion on Sarkeesian on this was that it was kinda bland and rather "well...duh" And I'm talking about the Escapist here, not the entire population of the Human race, the Escapist, where we're supposed to abide by a code of conduct.

We have an oversupply of the second and none of the first. Also, since when has gotten in the face of people and yelling at them ever solved anything?

Yes. You're policing tone. You don't get to tell a person that their anger is a bad thing when they're talking about their own oppression. This is hardly a flame war. I'm going to assume you've never seen a true full stop flame war, because this is nothing close. This is people passionately disagreeing.

You claim that everyone was going duh about what Sarkeesian was saying...and yet, here we are. Still having to read a bunch of dudes complain about how they might have to be a female in a game. Because reasons. If it's such a no brainer, then this thread wouldn't exist.

I'm not sure how you're confused about what the discussion is. Some posters are claiming that there's nothing wrong with their refusal to see beyond their own personal bits affecting an entire industry. And some of us are rolling our eyes and pointing out how that makes no sense when the marginalized groups have always been doing that very thing. The topic is still about sexism, but has now also touched on the prevalent issue of privilege.

 

[Church185]

What your doing is tone policing, a common tactic in derailing marginalized people from their right to be angry at being treated as lesser beings. That does nothing more than keep the debates and arguments from continuing. An oppressed person does not owe niceness to a person that is defending the system that disenfranchises them. Just look at the madness that happened with Sarkeesian. Her series is informative without being confrontational (beyond the fact that she's calling out sexism). And yet, she had to deal with accusations of fraud, death/rape threats, and constant harassment. So you'll forgive me for not side-eyeing the notion that being nice about this issue is somehow the better option.

You need both those that will calmly educate, and those that will get in your face and call you out for being a bigot.

The virulent people harassing women online for their opinions will never be able to be reasoned with, not saying what they do is ok, but they will forever be stupid, vile, ignorant people and no amount of shouting or lack of "niceness" is going to change it. So after you have learned to ignore the stupids, you are left talking with level headed people who either want to be a part of the solution or don't understand why it is such a big deal because they can't see the problem from your perspective. Being antagonistic with either of those groups is going to burn bridges, turning away the helpful people because of all the negativity (like @erttheking) or putting people who don't understand your view of the problem on the defensive. You will lose the opportunity to change people's minds about your problem because they will no longer be willing to work with you, and everything will boil down to the same old flame war. Publishers will still be making money like they always have, and your shouting angry voice will change nothing.

There are a ton of people on this forum that would like to discuss and solve this problem peacefully, but they are driven away from discussions by ignorant rage, or people who want to make a difference sinking to the level of a common troll.

Make a stand, be civil.

 

[maninahat]

Not a furore, but there was that time some artist redesigned the character to "improve her appearance" for the Asian market. By his argument, Faith's ethnic characteristics were exaggerated...

That may be a fact.

...to appeal to a Westerner's concept of beauty

That, however, is not a fact. That's an assumption of "why" and it's baseless speculation and it is the basis of the controversy. There was no reason to bring loaded statements like "a Westerner's concept of beauty" into a debate, even though it's the most blatant kangaroo court of public recriminations.

We really can do with more reasoned and structured discourse, how can we settle anything when people are making arguments that are so clearly fallacious and derailing if not down right false. They can't just stick to the facts and what is known.

Reading around, this is what the artist (Torukun) had allegedly said:

"[sic] There is always a huge complain from Asian gamers whenever Western developers design Asian female characters..." As Torokun continues, this is mainly because many Westerners' definition of what is considered as "Asian" beauty is very different from what Asians consider beautiful." [taken from Kotaku]

There are a couple of ambiguous grammatical errors, but if that is what the artist said, then I don't think there was any assumptions, loaded statements or misrepresentations. Japanese commentators had a lot to say too. [http://kotaku.com/5101715/what-do-some-japanese-commenters-think-of-faith-from-mirrors-edge]

 

[Erttheking]

You do know that I'm calling both sides out on this right? People on both sides of the debate need to calm down and explain what they're talking about calmly and rationally, so that actually progress can be made, because frankly there's so much rage and anger going on, I honestly have no idea what both sides are even talking about anymore. The countless flame wars, shouting and insults on this website have accomplished nothing, I don't see what another one will do. Also, I thought that a lot of people's general opinion on Sarkeesian on this was that it was kinda bland and rather "well...duh" And I'm talking about the Escapist here, not the entire population of the Human race, the Escapist, where we're supposed to abide by a code of conduct.

We have an oversupply of the second and none of the first. Also, since when has gotten in the face of people and yelling at them ever solved anything?

Yes. You're policing tone. You don't get to tell a person that their anger is a bad thing when they're talking about their own oppression. This is hardly a flame war. I'm going to assume you've never seen a true full stop flame war, because this is nothing close. This is people passionately disagreeing.

You claim that everyone was going duh about what Sarkeesian was saying...and yet, here we are. Still having to read a bunch of dudes complain about how they might have to be a female in a game. Because reasons. If it's such a no brainer, then this thread wouldn't exist.

I'm not sure how you're confused about what the discussion is. Some posters are claiming that there's nothing wrong with their refusal to see beyond their own personal bits affecting an entire industry. And some of us are rolling our eyes and pointing out how that makes no sense when the marginalized groups have always been doing that very thing. The topic is still about sexism, but has now also touched on the prevalent issue of privilege.

Two things. One, this a lack of female representation in video games isn't oppression. Is it unfair and stupid? Yes, but they're not oppressing the female gender. Two, Martin Luther King Jr. took the peaceful route to solving injustices towards blacks, and that was when they were on the receiving end of fire hoses and attack dogs. But it still worked out just fine for him.

Is that what people are talking about? I didn't know that, because everyone was getting so angry and yelling at people so much I had no idea what the Hell people were talking about. Also, the quality of her videos really wasn't that great, that's what I meant. It was duh because it basically just said "did you know that video games have damsels in distress? Because they do."

Yeah, I kind of have a hard time buying that, although maybe that's because there's so much shouting I have no idea what people are saying anymore. I could've sworn some people were just trying to say that they preferred playing as a man in games and that there was nothing wrong with that and getting into fights over it. Seems kinda petty and not related to the point, which is why I think we all need to stop fighting and start talking.

Just calm down, stop treating everyone that doesn't automatically agree with you like the enemy, and try to calmly explain your view to them. Phasmal and I did that and it went very well.

 

[Mahoshonen]

I remember seeing a bit of news from Bioware saying that 85% of ME and ME2 players choseto play a male character, based on their own datamining. Sounds like it might be an argument that folks want male characters by wide majority, right? But the info didn't take into account two things. One, the default character choice was male in both cases. More importantly, all of the promotional material, box art, and screenshots showed a male Shepard. So you have to wonder: maybe there was a wide preference for male Shepard because the audience that would have selected a female character took a quick look at the marketing material and written the game off as another SPESS MAHREEEN brofest.

 

[Darthbawls77]

Im a 27 straight male thats been playing video games since I was 2 and I switch between male and female characters all the time and could care less what sex they are. When they say males only play males they must be talking for themselves cause even with my other male friends who game this has never been a topic because we never felt it needed to be. I think people these days are too sensitive and need to calm down for real.

 

[danon]

Yeah thanks Sterling the forums needed more of this.

 

[Technicka]

Be nice to people that are okay with upholding harmful practices.

If a person saying, "That is a dumb argument," is all it takes for you to walk away from important issues like sexism in popular media, then you weren't really interested in learning about it otherwise. There's this pretty neat thing called the internet that allows you to look up info on various topics, so that if someone in a thread mentions something that peaked your curiosity, yet framed it in an angry tone that bothered you, you can further educate yourself without fear of your feelings being hurt.

But that's not what happens in discussions like this. The weight of educating the ignorant, and not taking it personal when the person that's demanding to be educated refuses to look beyond their own discomfort is placed on the wronged party. It's demanding the kid that got jumped explain why their bullies jumped them, and then dismissing them when the kid tells you. The people that aren't effected by these micro-agressions have the benefit of sitting on the outside and insisting the rest of us appease them, and can leave the conversation whenever the please. Because they won't have to deal with the real world ramifications of inaction. Which, in turn, leaves those that have to angry. And it's insulting to insist that they aren't allowed to express that anger.

And don't get me wrong, if someone is running through this thread 'screaming' KILL DEM MENZ WOMYN POWA STUPID PENIS. Then I suggest you take you own advice, and ignore them. And I can only speak for myself, but I could care less about obvious trolls. My (rightful) anger is at the posters/people that will state a problematic "truth" (guys just can't play as a women because if she kisses a dude, that's sick gross) and when it's pointed out how BS that is when women do the same with male leads, and there only rebuttal is along the lines of, "Well. It's different. Because I see myself kissing a dude and. Eww." I'm not going to waste my time sparing their feelings.

Words

Yes, a lack of representation is oppression. It's an aspect of it. If a group that actively contributes to a industry is only allowed to see themselves depicted in negative lights, they are being told by that industry that they aren't equal to the majority the industry feel beholden too (in this case, hetero males).

I was wondering when someone was going to bring up MLK. And it shows that you ignored part of my initial comment towards you. I specifically said in discussions of oppression, that you need both the civil debaters, and the rabble rousers. So yes, MLK went the path of peace. But way to forget Malcom X and the Black Panthers that push for their people to not just passive wait for whites to see them as humans. The Civil Rights movement was a collection of both extremes pushing against bigotry.

 

[Treblaine]

Reading around, this is what the artist (Torukun) had allegedly said:

"[sic] There is always a huge complain from Asian gamers whenever Western developers design Asian female characters..." As Torokun continues, this is mainly because many Westerners' definition of what is considered as "Asian" beauty is very different from what Asians consider beautiful." [taken from Kotaku]

There are a couple of ambiguous grammatical errors, but if that is what the artist said, then I don't think there was any assumptions, loaded statements or misrepresentations. Japanese commentators had a lot to say too. [http://kotaku.com/5101715/what-do-some-japanese-commenters-think-of-faith-from-mirrors-edge]

That's not an established fact that's just what a one or a few people claim.

He cannot speak for all Westerners nor all Asians. Even if he can recognise a trend, he cannot so baselessly claim as a fact that it is for such a loaded thing as beauty.

And by the way, this is not criticism art for it's artistic worth, but literally for it's conformity. This is the kind of shit that will come round to bite video games in the ass... if it's just about conforming to pressures or pandering to majority prejudices, then it's devalued as an art form and loses the few protections is has had from censors. That protection being that it's on the grounds of it being artistic expression.

Oooooor it could just be the fact that the demand for games with such protagonists isn't as high as everyone would like to believe (confirmation bias) and the market just can't support those kinds of characters right now?

Why is that not an option?

Even Devil May Cry outsold Bayonetta by over 30%, and DMC was an exclusive while Bayonetta was multi platform.

Not exactly right.

DMC was released in 2013 on three platforms and it was a functional release on each platform. It was also highly publicised, to spite 4chan's bitching about Dante being different that was a case of "no such thing as bad publicity". By 2013, 148 million xbox 360 and PS3 had been consoles sold.

Bayonetta was released in early 2010 on Xbox 360 and PS3, but the PS3 release was compromised by an incredibly shoddy port that had unplayable level of bugginess and everyone knew this and PS3 owners avoided it. Also back in early 2010 only 69 million PS3 and Xbox 360 consoles had been sold

Still, Bayonetta sold 1.92 million copies, DMC has sold only 0.67 million.

If you meant the first Devil May Cry on PS2, well that was back when games were $45-50, too much has changed for that to be a remotely fair comparison.

Even if what you said was true... a mere 30% better with ALL the other differences to be considered, that's not enough to compeltley write of female leads in video games.