Jimquisition: The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

Jimothy Sterling

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The Xbox One: A Lying Failure Machine

Piece by piece, everything that Microsoft intended the Xbox One to be has eroded away, revealing nothing but dishonesty and shortcomings beneath.

Watch Video
 

QtheMuse

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Jim, I am pretty sure that tie is suppose to look like a penis.

All hail the penis tie.
 

Zacharious-khan

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thank god for penis tie

i like how the podium is becoming more and more populous, like Willam Dafoe is multiplying....
 

Evonisia

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That tie was looking fine.

Besides that, this episode is basically a repeat of the recent apology episode and any post 180 turn Xbox One episode. Filler, I guess that's down to the summer being full of nothing worth thinking about.
 

C.S.Strowbridge

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Off topic, what is it with Jim Sterling and prawns / shrimp. Why does he show pictures of them whenever he says no? Has he explained it before?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Huh... Jim... you're complaining about Microsoft Lying....you know that's like complaining about water being wet right?


Seriously, which person with sense actually bought the bs MS was shoveling?
 

tm96

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The tie was probably a joke.

Also Microsoft. I have some advice. Don't promise the moon while screwing us over and another thing Windows 8.
 

C.S.Strowbridge

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On a side note, the X-Box One doubled sales after the Kinnectless version came out, but the month before, while people were waiting for this version, sales fell below the Wii U by a serious margin. Even with double the sales, the PS4 was the best-selling console, but with less than 100,000 units sold.
 

Jofe

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tm96 said:
The tie was probably a joke.

Also Microsoft. I have some advice. Don't promise the moon while screwing us over and another thing Windows 8.
I think that could apply to many other companies besides Microsoft (cough Ubisoft cough). But it seems like its the way works now. Make a crapton of promises to hype up something. Then cut around half or more because you overshoot in the name of hype. And finally make a half assed apology while you still make millions because we never learn. Bonus points if you get people to defend the product by using the word 'entitled'.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

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Jun 5, 2013
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The whole new generation is a failure. You can tell because its considered a big step forward that The Last of Us, a game from the better generation, is now on the newer. So whats considered a great success it merely matching what the old PS3/360 did.
I'll never get a PS4 or Xbone. The games I love or want to play are already on my 360 or my PC. Not one game for the new gen has ever convinced me to buy a new gen system.
The PS4 may be the best selling of the new gen, but it wasn't needed. There was no reason for it. This console war reminds me of the Cold War to some degree. Microsoft has to make a new system because Sony is. And Sony has to make a new system because Microsoft is. And the gamers are caught in the crossfire.

Sweet tie though Jim. Like the black square.

(Don't even bother talking about the Wii U. Its a joke not a system)
 

Remus

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C.S.Strowbridge said:
Off topic, what is it with Jim Sterling and prawns / shrimp. Why does he show pictures of them whenever he says no? Has he explained it before?
I remember it started with District 9. Maybe prawns have become a symbol of rejection, outright rebellion, a counter to whatever BS the game companies present each and every week.
 

babinro

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Shouldn't this site be flooded with WiiU, handheld console, PC games coverage while Xbox One and PS4 get maybe 1/10th the attention of those? Wouldn't this be sending a more positive message about the gaming industry through your actions?

I'm not saying for Yahtzee or Jim Sterling to stop making videos about this. By all means, point out the injustices to consumers so that we don't forget about this issue. Even the escapists podcasters have almost nothing positive to say about the current gen consoles.

It would be nice if the site could follow it's content creators own advice. Spend more time focusing on promoting positive gaming awareness through companies who make 'less evil' decisions.

On topic: Good summary piece all around.
I didn't need more convincing to never support Xbox One but there you have it.
 

Something Amyss

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BigTuk said:
Huh... Jim... you're complaining about Microsoft Lying....you know that's like complaining about water being wet right?


Seriously, which person with sense actually bought the bs MS was shoveling?
Well, I can't claim to for absolute fact know what people were thinking, but you did get a sizable chunk of people defending Microsoft for their practices. Maybe they knew better, but they sure made it sounds like they thought Microsoft was telling the gospel truth about the Xbone.
 

LenticularHomicide

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> Last week: Slams EA and Ubisoft for apologizing after they lie and fuck up.
> This week: Slams Microsoft for not apologizing after they lie and fuck up.


(Yes, I know that in EA and Ubisoft's case it was because the apologies were ass-covering disingenuous PR fuckery, but the parallel here was too amusing to not point out.)
 

theApoc

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So Jim is complaining about a situation that he and the others who are like him created? You are complaining because they backed off of creating a media device and subsequently neutered it to stop the whining of people like yourself? It had clear potential that was eliminated the moment the company started making decisions based on game reviewers and silly rant videos.

Kinect may not be ready for prime time. But it is better than it was, and it will continue to get better still. And 5 years from now, people will wonder how there was every a device that wasn't spacial aware and capable of true voice command. It was never going to be anything more than a gimmick when it comes to games, and gaming should never have been the focus of the device.

The only thing the failed to do was emphasize the strengths of the kinect as its own thing. Instead they keep trying to tie it to gaming. When many of the features that could actually make it useful are pushed off as secondary.

MS has a terrible marketing department, for all of their devices and all of their software. Not because of what they are producing, but rather because they are marketing these things as if they are following rather than innovating.

The PS4 is no more relevant than the XBOX one, and that has nothing to do with fanboys or hardware. There was no real need for current gen, and they would have been a lot better off waiting until they were able to mass produce true next gen experiences. Until developers can utilize these devices 100%, both machines are a complete waste of money.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I've hardly noticed that there has been a 'new generation' to be honest. I think many others would feel the same; PC gamers gonna keep on PCing and the mobile gamers gonna keep on mobilin' (and getting the short end of the stick sadly since most people with artistic worth actively avoid the platform)

I don't understand what this generation is supposed to be. Last time it was the "HD generation", but even on technical terms this generation is... kind of the same. 720p and 30fps abound. Shall we call this the "x86 generation"? the "Basically a closed off kind of shit PC" generation? I just don't get what the new consoles are supposed to be except expensively treading water.

[sub]Off topic. Every time i misspell Basically spell check keeps suggesting 'Adiabatically'. No Spell-check. I'm done with Thermodynamics. I did my time! YOU CAN'T MAKE ME GO BACK. [/sub]
 

youji itami

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C.S.Strowbridge said:
On a side note, the X-Box One doubled sales after the Kinnectless version came out, but the month before, while people were waiting for this version, sales fell below the Wii U by a serious margin. Even with double the sales, the PS4 was the best-selling console, but with less than 100,000 units sold.
Question, where does this come from.

"Even with double the sales, the PS4 was the best-selling console, but with less than 100,000 units sold"

NPD 2014 June USA only
PS4: 269k
XBO: 197k
3DS: 152k
Wii U: 140k
360: 62k
PS3: 42k
Wii: 19k
PSV: 15k
 

templar1138a

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BigTuk said:
Huh... Jim... you're complaining about Microsoft Lying....you know that's like complaining about water being wet right?


Seriously, which person with sense actually bought the bs MS was shoveling?
His point. You just illustrated it.
 

Imp_Emissary

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LenticularHomicide said:
> Last week: Slams EA and Ubisoft for apologizing after they lie and fuck up.
> This week: Slams Microsoft for not apologizing after they lie and fuck up.


(Yes, I know that in EA and Ubisoft's case it was because the apologies were ass-covering disingenuous PR fuckery, but the parallel here was too amusing to not point out.)
Hehehe. Out of context that is a little funny. ;)

I hope you're not the only one to not forget about what they tried to do with the X-box One, Jim.

It's good that they had a change of course, but they fought hard to try and keep it the way it was.
 

templar1138a

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I have no plans to get an Xbone. If I get another microsoft console, it'll be the one that comes after the Xbone that uses backwards compatibility back to the 360 as a feature. But only if they cut down on the other bullshit.

*sigh* I'll never get to play Rock Band again.
 

Something Amyss

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C.S.Strowbridge said:
On a side note, the X-Box One doubled sales after the Kinnectless version came out, but the month before, while people were waiting for this version, sales fell below the Wii U by a serious margin. Even with double the sales, the PS4 was the best-selling console, but with less than 100,000 units sold.
That true? That's hilarious if so.

"Oh hey guys, we totally double our sales *coughafterlosingatonthemonthbefore* people LOVE the Xbox One now that it is Kinect-Free!"
 

youji itami

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theApoc said:
So Jim is complaining about a situation that he and the others who are like him created? You are complaining because they backed off of creating a media device and subsequently neutered it to stop the whining of people like yourself? It had clear potential that was eliminated the moment the company started making decisions based on game reviewers and silly rant videos.

Kinect may not be ready for prime time. But it is better than it was, and it will continue to get better still. And 5 years from now, people will wonder how there was every a device that wasn't spacial aware and capable of true voice command. It was never going to be anything more than a gimmick when it comes to games, and gaming should never have been the focus of the device.

The only thing the failed to do was emphasize the strengths of the kinect as its own thing. Instead they keep trying to tie it to gaming. When many of the features that could actually make it useful are pushed off as secondary.

MS has a terrible marketing department, for all of their devices and all of their software. Not because of what they are producing, but rather because they are marketing these things as if they are following rather than innovating.

The PS4 is no more relevant than the XBOX one, and that has nothing to do with fanboys or hardware. There was no real need for current gen, and they would have been a lot better off waiting until they were able to mass produce true next gen experiences. Until developers can utilize these devices 100%, both machines are a complete waste of money.

There never will be a "true next gen experience" we are at the end of CPU and GPU performance improvements physics has beaten us.
 

youji itami

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templar1138a said:
I have no plans to get an Xbone. If I get another microsoft console, it'll be the one that comes after the Xbone that uses backwards compatibility back to the 360 as a feature. But only if they cut down on the other bullshit.

*sigh* I'll never get to play Rock Band again.

That will never happen IBM is doing away with there CPU business and Microsoft will never pay IBM billions of dollars for BC for a future console.
 

Goliath100

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Evonisia said:
Besides that, this episode is basically a repeat of the recent apology episode and any post 180 turn Xbox One episode. Filler, I guess that's down to the summer being full of nothing worth thinking about.
Maybe it's time for a junk drawer episode? Or a episode where he corrects his former mistakes. Or a episode where he apologized for the shitty reviews og his, especially this one.
 

DarkhoIlow

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But, but guys!

The cloud will fix everything!

captcha: drag race...funny that one captcha.
 

bubba145

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Jim i meant to say this on last weeks episode but i came up with a good line for pre ordering things. "You wouldn't pre order a piece of fruit."
 

TheMemoman

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Good episode, sir!

Lovely seeing this deconstruction of the hard work put in by the PR departments in big, huge, companies. What a fulfilling career choice that must be for both scoundrels and scum.
 

Andy Shandy

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Not sure what to make of this episode.

On the one hand, I don't particularly disagree with anything that has been said. But on the other hand, now that the Xbox One has changed, and to something people actually want, it does kind of seem like looking for excuses to dislike it.

Then again, maybe it's because I own - and have enjoyed - the Xbox One (I do also own the Wii U and now PS4) that I feel this way. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and applaud them, but equally as well, I'm not going to hold a grudge either.
 

Ticklefist

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Well like the video says, we all knew this was bullshit a year ago.

I think a more topical video would be one that calls out Sony for releasing a new console but little else.
 

ex275w

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babinro said:
Shouldn't this site be flooded with WiiU, handheld console, PC games coverage while Xbox One and PS4 get maybe 1/10th the attention of those? Wouldn't this be sending a more positive message about the gaming industry through your actions?

I'm not saying for Yahtzee or Jim Sterling to stop making videos about this. By all means, point out the injustices to consumers so that we don't forget about this issue. Even the escapists podcasters have almost nothing positive to say about the current gen consoles.

It would be nice if the site could follow it's content creators own advice. Spend more time focusing on promoting positive gaming awareness through companies who make 'less evil' decisions.

On topic: Good summary piece all around.
I didn't need more convincing to never support Xbox One but there you have it.
The thing is, the Xbox One and PS4 audience is the one most willing to join gaming sites, read the news, etc. The Wii U and 3DS is more of a niche and Nintendo games do tend to attract younger audiences who won't join gaming sites and read the news. As for PC gaming... I guess they already have their news site or niche community.
 

Imperioratorex Caprae

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Any reason to give Microsoft shit, eh? Same with EA, Ubisoft, etc. People can't get enough of not just criticizing these big companies but rather making a big deal out of everything, and if they decide to reverse course and do something smart? By all means lets shame them for that as well. If anyone wonders why they don't seem to care about "you" as a customer, maybe its because "you" have a tendency to badmouth them no matter what they do. If it were me I'd care very little about the opinions of folks who never had one good thing to say about me, yet go out of their way to talk shit.
 

CaitSeith

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Sorry Jim, but your anonymous Hong Kong pink tie is no match for my Quebec twoney white cap. Wait... what is that? A portrait of Mysterio from Spiderman!? Damn, dictator Jim wins again!
 

INVALIDUSERNAME

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Can't help but feel like this video just preaches to the choir.

Most people here were pretty gung-ho about shitting all over M$ and I don't think that has changed much over the course of the year.

Still, it's good to remember the shit they tried to pull instead of praising them for suddenly making the XBone the console it should have been from the get-go.
 

Thanatos2k

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Phil Spencer is just another spin doctor. Their new corporate line is that all those mistakes and lies were made by the old people (ie Mattrick) but now that Phil is here he's not responsible for the lies and broken promises of the people who came before him, so everyone just shut up and buy more consoles.

Have people REALLY forgotten the lies and bullshit Microsoft threw at us a year ago? I haven't. It's why I don't own an Xbone and don't have plans to do so in the forseeable future.
 

KazeAizen

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Big surprise. Yahtzee was right. Sony and Microsoft were so gung ho about becoming less powerful PCs that they basically were in a race to see which would become obsolete faster. Looks like we know which one won the race. This also proves, while still terrible launch, staying committed to a devoted game system and focusing on what game consoles always were and should be will net you good will and eventually start turning around. While I didn't think it would fail in quite this way I suspected it basically would be a two console race between the Wii U and PS4 with the Xbone limping behind in third place.
 

LordMonty

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Well said but diapointment more than anger is all I hold for the great fall of microsoft and the xbox brand due to lies and weak will to hold the line on its media plans(stick to your guns or just be more wrong and U-turn some more?).

Sure sales have picked up but they not getting any closer to catching sony who are no white knights but at least they are semi clear and honest as corperations go :) meh smeg it i'm going to go and sigh deeply for a day or two over the faliure of over paid dumb asses.
 

KazeAizen

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Thanatos2k said:
Phil Spencer is just another spin doctor. Their new corporate line is that all those mistakes and lies were made by the old people (ie Mattrick) but now that Phil is here he's not responsible for the lies and broken promises of the people who came before him, so everyone just shut up and buy more consoles.

Have people REALLY forgotten the lies and bullshit Microsoft threw at us a year ago? I haven't. It's why I don't own an Xbone and don't have plans to do so in the forseeable future.
At best its going to be some collector's item for me some time down the road when it is like $100 and even then I'm not sure it'll be worth that much.
 

VinLAURiA

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Y'know, Jim, here's what I don't get.

You're decrying Microsoft for its U-turns and backpedaling from their E3 2013 pitch because they're framing it as a noble decision when they only finally budged on it due to all the backlash... and don't get me wrong - you're in the right for that. But so many people - you included - were so quick to praise the PS4 for pulling the same reversal back then. The fact is, this DRM garbage and the "jack up the price by a hundred bucks for a mandatory spy camera" was all originally going to be the case for the PS4 as well, and Sony explicitly came out and confirmed they quickly rewrote their pitch [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-09-microsofts-pr-blunders-caused-sony-to-re-write-e3-playstation-4-script] after the Xbone showing in order to avoid the same backlash the Xbone got, taking advantage of everyone's anger over it and swooping in as some proverbial hero. Everyone celebrated Sony for not going through with their original plan (you sung a song [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jim-yahtzees-rhymedown-spectacular/7467-To-Kill-a-Microsoft-bird] about them!), and now that Microsoft is doing the same thing, you're calling them dishonest.

Now bear in mind, I have no love for the Xbone by any means (only systems I care about are Nintendo's stuff, as usual), but I just find it irritating that it seems to be the sole target of your ire when the PS4 is just as guilty of all this crap but Sony only managed to hide it for longer, and they only came around to admitting it now because they've long secured a lead from the stunt and don't give a damn now. Fact is, they're just as sleazy as Microsoft is and they played you and everyone else like a violin. Where's your anger towards them?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Zachary Amaranth said:
BigTuk said:
Huh... Jim... you're complaining about Microsoft Lying....you know that's like complaining about water being wet right?


Seriously, which person with sense actually bought the bs MS was shoveling?
Well, I can't claim to for absolute fact know what people were thinking, but you did get a sizable chunk of people defending Microsoft for their practices. Maybe they knew better, but they sure made it sounds like they thought Microsoft was telling the gospel truth about the Xbone.
True.. I mean there were people who believed Iraq had WMD's. There are people who believe Obama was born in Kenya and there are people who believe in Santa Claus. In which case, if you fall for such lies repeatedly you kinda deserve the bs you get. I mean everyone is stupid once but if you've reached the age where you have financial independence and responsibility and still fall for bs like that... you deserve it.
 

KaZuYa

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Why can't we throw the consoles in the bin, let developers make any game they want and just post the required spec's and people either upgrade their... lets call it a personal system or computer built with their choice of parts and brands if they need to or don't and just carry on playing the 1000's of previous titles which are still fully compatible.
 

Darth_Payn

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Zacharious-khan said:
thank god for penis tie

i like how the podium is becoming more and more populous, like Willam Dafoe is multiplying....
Yeah, I noticed G! Starscream sitting there on the far right.
I also like that bit jim said about not coming off as a dictator, kind of a call-back to the imagery he used when he started this show i.e. knocking-off V for Vendetta.
 

Fappy

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Am I weird for enjoying the awkward humor portions near the end of each video more than the meaty bits?
 

Soulrender95

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VinLAURiA said:
quickly rewrote their pitch [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-09-microsofts-pr-blunders-caused-sony-to-re-write-e3-playstation-4-script]
did you actually read the article or just the headline? they re-wrote it to make the script clearer that they weren't pulling the same crap as microsoft because everyone assumed they were going to, from the article

"All it did was make us come out and state very clearly 'the status quo has been good to us, consumers like the choice and the balance that achieves'," he concluded. "It wasn't a shift in strategy, it was just a feeling of a necessity to go out and communicate something that we just took advantage of."

sure they took advantage of the blunder, but that's just good business sense.
 

Kmadden2004

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VinLAURiA said:
Y'know, Jim, here's what I don't get.

You're decrying Microsoft for its U-turns and backpedaling from their E3 2013 pitch because they're framing it as a noble decision when they only finally budged on it due to all the backlash... and don't get me wrong - you're in the right for that. But so many people - you included - were so quick to praise the PS4 for pulling the same reversal back then. The fact is, this DRM garbage and the "jack up the price by a hundred bucks for a mandatory spy camera" was all originally going to be the case for the PS4 as well, and Sony explicitly came out and confirmed they quickly rewrote their pitch [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-09-microsofts-pr-blunders-caused-sony-to-re-write-e3-playstation-4-script] after the Xbone showing in order to avoid the same backlash the Xbone got, taking advantage of everyone's anger over it and swooping in as some proverbial hero. Everyone celebrated Sony for not going through with their original plan (you sung a song [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jim-yahtzees-rhymedown-spectacular/7467-To-Kill-a-Microsoft-bird] about them!), and now that Microsoft is doing the same thing, you're calling them dishonest.

Now bear in mind, I have no love for the Xbone by any means (only systems I care about are Nintendo's stuff, as usual), but I just find it irritating that it seems to be the sole target of your ire when the PS4 is just as guilty of all this crap but Sony only managed to hide it for longer, and they only came around to admitting it now because they've long secured a lead from the stunt and don't give a damn now. Fact is, they're just as sleazy as Microsoft is and they played you and everyone else like a violin. Where's your anger towards them?
Um... where in that article does it say Sony made a U-turn of the type Microsoft have been continually making for the last year?
 

Callate

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That tie quells all debate? Damn, where do I get me one of them?

So, slight tangent: Game Informer. That magazine that comes with a platinum GameStop membership.

However futilely, I felt obligated to write into GI this month. You see, a while back, they did an assessment of the PS4 versus the XBox One. Usually, I feel that GI does a fairly good job for a magazine that rides on the back of GS membership, but here, they took a turn for the cowardly and gave both the PS4 and XBox One equal high-mediocre marks, in the process more or less ignoring all the crap that has seen Microsoft spend the last several months back-pedaling.

So in the most recent issue, discussing the E3, they go into detail about the XBox One's setbacks and under-performance... And then they go and give both Sony and Microsoft "C+".

"But Callate," you say, "They were only evaluating the E3 performances, not the systems, this time!" Except they weren't. In the segment on Nintendo, they note that "Many declared Nintendo had 'won' E3", and then give their presentation a "C" on the grounds that "It's important to understand the difference between 'winning' E3 and winning the console battle."

So "winning the console battle" is an important part of the assessment, except when it isn't.

I called the assessment timid, which was a diplomatic hedge on the lines that it was more likely to get my letter printed. In truth, I would be more inclined to call it craven, and if I was truly blunt, to suggest that it smacked of a wing of GameStop not wanting to step on toes. I'm no Sony fanboy- I don't own a PS3 or PS4, as yet- but Sony is clearly winning, right now. The only right steps Microsoft is taking are steps away from its earlier stances. Sunset Overdrive and Titanfall may be great, and all, but No Man's Sky was the game of the show for many, and right now it's looking like a PS4 exclusive.

It's frustrating to see Microsoft winning (or even coming to a draw in) a PR battle they don't deserve.
 

VinLAURiA

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Soulrender95 said:
did you actually read the article or just the headline? they re-wrote it to make the script clearer that they weren't pulling the same crap as microsoft because everyone assumed they were going to, from the article

"All it did was make us come out and state very clearly 'the status quo has been good to us, consumers like the choice and the balance that achieves'," he concluded. "It wasn't a shift in strategy, it was just a feeling of a necessity to go out and communicate something that we just took advantage of."

sure they took advantage of the blunder, but that's just good business sense.
Oh, I read the article. And one person's comments below it sums it up quite well:

"Sony's policies did not change at any time, House stressed" - and frankly if you believe that for even a second you are insane.

Given that several key policies of Micrsoft's DRM talk had been formed on the back of Sony having begun patenting the exact same thing.
I mean, come on. Consider Sony's track record with this stuff. Look at the PS3's launch hubris. Look at the PSN fiasco. Look at the Vita and all that proprietary nonsense. Look at that embarrassing patent for the "interrupt your gameplay until you say an ad phrase into the PSEye" thing. These guys have a track record for screwing people over and they were treated as a hero last E3 for doing the bare minimum simply because Microsoft didn't. Only reason they got away with it this time is because they changed their minds only shortly before it would've been called backpedaling to do so.

Again, I'm not saying Microsoft's any better, and yes, PS4 is still the better console. But come on, they're all-but saying "yeah, we were gonna do the same thing if you guys swallowed Microsoft doing it." How is that worthy of any sort of praise?
 

Goliath100

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SirBryghtside said:
Um... what's supposed to be wrong with that review?
So the game almost flawlessly combines its mechanics and narrative in a meaningful way, and Jimmy fails to mention it once. Putting him in the same stinking boat as almost everyone else who has reviewed it.
 

Soulrender95

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May 13, 2011
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VinLAURiA said:
Oh, I read the article. And one person's comments below it sums it up quite well:

"Sony's policies did not change at any time, House stressed" - and frankly if you believe that for even a second you are insane.

Given that several key policies of Micrsoft's DRM talk had been formed on the back of Sony having begun patenting the exact same thing.
I mean, come on. Consider Sony's track record with this stuff. Look at the Vita.
even assuming that Sony was going to do what microsoft did, of which until someone leaks internal documents there is no evidence of.
There's a difference between doing it before announcement and launch and doing it publicly over the course of a year after telling customers and potential customers outright lies about the kinect being necessary, the console always needing to check in online.
 

VinLAURiA

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Soulrender95 said:
even assuming that Sony was going to do what microsoft did, of which until someone leaks internal documents there is no evidence of.
There's a difference between doing it before announcement and launch and doing it publicly over the course of a year after telling customers outright lies about the kinect being necessary, the console always needing to check in online.
Tch, really? And what's that difference? One had the sense to cover their ass beforehand and the other tried to lie before getting caught. I don't see how that exonerates the first guy.
 

Zero Serenity

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Nov 21, 2009
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Ballmer is out and replaced with Nadella.
Mattrick is out replaced by Spencer.
The company as a whole needed a bit of a turn around.
And here's your apology. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYil9yd0Dmw]
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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KazeAizen said:
While I didn't think it would fail in quite this way I suspected it basically would be a two console race between the Wii U and PS4 with the Xbone limping behind in third place.
Just wait until Smash Bros hits the WiiU and No Man's Sky hits the PS4. It will be chaos.

Goliath100 said:
SirBryghtside said:
Um... what's supposed to be wrong with that review?
So the game almost flawlessly combines its mechanics and narrative in a meaningful way, and Jimmy fails to mention it once. Putting him in the same stinking boat as almost everyone else who has reviewed it.
"What this leads to is a game that is perhaps one of the most stressful I've played in a long time. That's not a bad thing, either. Metro 2033 is oppressive, where every battle is escaped by the skin of one's teeth and every step forward could lead the player into a trap or a death-dealing ambush. If you're in the wrong frame of mind, Metro 2033 is not fun at all. It's downright horrible. If you let it "click" with you, however, it becomes obsessively engrossing."

"Metro 2033 gives you enough to survive, but it only ever gives you the bare minimum. The feeling of "making do" permeates the entire experience, and it all adds to the incredible atmosphere that's been set up... This atmosphere bleeds into the non-combat portions as well. Throughout the game's linear story, you'll encounter various metro stations, which have formed their own societies and ideals. You can shop for new supplies, advance the story, or just listen to the impressive amount of conversations that NPCs engage in, fleshing out this miserable, pitiless world. The Metro stations really feel like they're bristling with life, albeit life that's desperately hanging on by a thread. It can be difficult to really nail immersion, and few games do it so flawlessly as Metro 2033."

Sounds like he mentioned it to me.
 

Gorrath

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Feb 22, 2013
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VinLAURiA said:
Soulrender95 said:
did you actually read the article or just the headline? they re-wrote it to make the script clearer that they weren't pulling the same crap as microsoft because everyone assumed they were going to, from the article

"All it did was make us come out and state very clearly 'the status quo has been good to us, consumers like the choice and the balance that achieves'," he concluded. "It wasn't a shift in strategy, it was just a feeling of a necessity to go out and communicate something that we just took advantage of."

sure they took advantage of the blunder, but that's just good business sense.
Oh, I read the article. And one person's comments below it sums it up quite well:

"Sony's policies did not change at any time, House stressed" - and frankly if you believe that for even a second you are insane.

Given that several key policies of Micrsoft's DRM talk had been formed on the back of Sony having begun patenting the exact same thing.
I mean, come on. Consider Sony's track record with this stuff. Look at the PS3's launch hubris. Look at the PSN fiasco. Look at the Vita and all that proprietary nonsense. Look at that embarrassing patent for the "interrupt your gameplay until you say an ad phrase into the PSEye" thing. These guys have a track record for screwing people over and they were treated as a hero last E3 for doing the bare minimum simply because Microsoft didn't. Only reason they got away with it this time is because they changed their minds only shortly before it would've been called backpedaling to do so.

Again, I'm not saying Microsoft's any better, and yes, PS4 is still the better console. But come on, they're all-but saying "yeah, we were gonna do the same thing if you guys swallowed Microsoft doing it." How is that worthy of any sort of praise?
I've no issue with giving Sony shit over everything it has and will do wrong, but I go by what the company says and more importantly, what it does. I don't know if Sony planned the same DRM scheme or not, all I know is they said they didn't and didn't release a console with it. What I also know is that MS said they were going to, and after an avalanche of complaints, insisted that they HAD to, which was a lie.

Any accusation that Sony planned to put that DRM in their system is speculation, and I can see why one might think it was good speculation, but the fact is they didn't spend several months trying to bullshit us into seeing things their way. Even if that had been the plan, the fact that they saw that it wasn't a desirable "feature" and quickly canned it still puts them leagues ahead of MS' bullshit brigade trying to convince us that their shitty DRM was actually totally awesomely rad for us, the consumers. BY all means, shit on Sony when they deserve it, they have earned plenty of it, but in this case, they sure as hell weren't even in the same ballpark of barf that MS was.
 

theApoc

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Oct 17, 2008
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youji itami said:
There never will be a "true next gen experience" we are at the end of CPU and GPU performance improvements physics has beaten us.
I think that is what bugs me the most about rants like Mr. Sterling's. Next gen should not have been about graphics(obviously they would get better). It should not have been about games(obviously there would be new ones). And honestly, for all the complaining he has done in regards to how publishers have become lazy and dishonest, you would think he would have understood the concept of a next gen console that was not centered around games. Instead, MS is "dishonest" for trying to do something different. All of this anti-consumer crap he is spouting is nonsense.

Always online:

- faster less obtrusive updates
- device inter-connectivity
- expanded cloud services

Alternative Control Perpherals

- more connectivity
- more interactivity
- less fiddling for non gamers

To name a few. The assumption that these things were included for the sole purpose of hurting the consumer, makes very little sense, from both a business and technology standpoint. I feel it is he short sightedness of gamers like Jim that is the reason that current Gen doesn't feel quite so impressive.
 

girzwald

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Nov 16, 2011
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Video game companies aren't going to change until people stop throwing their money at them without a second thought and trusting companies that nobody says the actually trust. Have some freaken patience. Did you HAVE to buy an XBOX ONE ( or insert X system or X game that disappointed you) the day it came out or soon thereafter? Nope. But you just had to, didn't you? Had to have it now now now, gimme gimme gimme.

Think you aren't part of the problem? If you are per-ordering video game products, you are. If you are buying titles before any reviews or actual game play footage is seen, you are. I save myself tons of money and frustration by doing just one simple thing. Waiting. Not only do I never pay full price for games, I rarely, if ever, get suckered into buying a game that is shit. And the industry, including the game developers ain't going to change till they feel it in their wallets.

And nope, I don't miss out on a thing. A game like Mass Effect 3 was just as awesome for 20 bucks. In fact, it was better through patches and such...then you paid 60 for it. Games don't age and get worse over the course of a year. You'll be in a bit of a dry spell at first, but soon after, you'll be on a regular video game playing schedule like everyone else. Playing new games all the time. But for cheaper and less chance of it being an aliens colonial marines type situation.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Goliath100 said:
MarsAtlas said:
That's the standard stoff, I'm talking about the Moral Point System. He's never mentioning that.
Would kind of ruin the game for somebody if he had done so, though. You didn't see any reviewers really talk too much about the tone or narrative of Spec Ops: The Line or Bioshock much for the very same reasons.
 

Soulrender95

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May 13, 2011
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VinLAURiA said:
Soulrender95 said:
even assuming that Sony was going to do what microsoft did, of which until someone leaks internal documents there is no evidence of.
There's a difference between doing it before announcement and launch and doing it publicly over the course of a year after telling customers outright lies about the kinect being necessary, the console always needing to check in online.
Tch, really? And what's that difference? One had the sense to cover their ass beforehand and the other did it too late. I don't see how that exonerates the first guy.
are you just being deliberately obtuse?
the first guy doesn't need to be exonerated because he didn't commit a crime, he might have wanted to, but he didn't, and since you can't place person on trial something they might have done had they been given the opportunity by the same token we can't accuse Sony of a U-turn because we may think they had plans to do it and there is no evidence to suggest they did, just hearsay and speculation. The difference is Microsoft actually DID it, they publicly lied to customers and potential customers, they're is video and documented evidence of this.
 

KDR_11k

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Ah Microsoft, I guess their short stint as a company that people actually like is now over, back to the old days of fucking us over at every turn. We finally see the true face of Microsoft that we have been waiting for it to reveal ever since it announced it would enter the console market. A monopolist of the worst kind, abusing customers in every way because they don't have a choice. Guess they now realized that in the console market your monopoly only lasts until the end of the generation.
 

KazeAizen

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MarsAtlas said:
KazeAizen said:
While I didn't think it would fail in quite this way I suspected it basically would be a two console race between the Wii U and PS4 with the Xbone limping behind in third place.
Just wait until Smash Bros hits the WiiU and No Man's Sky hits the PS4. It will be chaos.
I think you mean it will be a slaughter. It appears to me the only title Xbox has going for it is Sunset Overdrive and that doesn't seem to be enough to entice gamers to buy it.
 

Evonisia

Your sinner, in secret
Jun 24, 2013
3,258
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0
Goliath100 said:
Evonisia said:
Besides that, this episode is basically a repeat of the recent apology episode and any post 180 turn Xbox One episode. Filler, I guess that's down to the summer being full of nothing worth thinking about.
Maybe it's time for a junk drawer episode? Or a episode where he corrects his former mistakes. Or a episode where he apologized for the shitty reviews og his, especially this one.
A Jimquistion Junk Drawer episode would be nice to see. If only because tossing off one sentence to topics already covered would probably be fast paced and enjoyable.
 

an874

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Jul 17, 2009
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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Any reason to give Microsoft shit, eh? Same with EA, Ubisoft, etc. People can't get enough of not just criticizing these big companies but rather making a big deal out of everything, and if they decide to reverse course and do something smart? By all means lets shame them for that as well. If anyone wonders why they don't seem to care about "you" as a customer, maybe its because "you" have a tendency to badmouth them no matter what they do. If it were me I'd care very little about the opinions of folks who never had one good thing to say about me, yet go out of their way to talk shit.
The reason people shame them in the first place is because they didn't seem to care about us right from the start by lying to and trying to screw the customers at every fucking turn, so, as with just about every problem in the game industry, this was a problem they caused. Also being silent or supposedly more dignified wouldn't get their attention, since the best they would've done then is pull out the old "hur dur it's just a vocal minority line." No, it was vocal criticism (and supposedly sagging preorder/sales figures) that got Microsoft to turn off its awful drm, and come out with a less shit version of its console... one that it still sells for $400 (maybe more depending on where you live) in spite of the fact that for all intents and purposes there's even less to separate it from the xbox 360 in terms of functionality, but still the way I see it we at least have nothing to lose everything to gain from shaming them.
 

Fasckira

Dice Tart
Oct 22, 2009
1,678
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Picture the scene; I'm delivering a parcel to a friend whos moved to a new house that I've never been to before. I've got a rough idea of how to get there, advice from friends and a vague map. While the journey in theory is a few streets away, I make a mess of it - I end up going down cul-de-sacs, I get stuck in one way streets but eventually I make it to the house and drop off the parcel.

Was the journey a fuck-up? Hah, definetly. Was it a failure? Well, no - the package was delivered.

I understand the sentiment behind what you're saying but I cant help feel its a bit silly to hold a grudge in such a way, almost cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
 

Thanatos2k

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There are three phases:

1. Thinking about doing something.
2. Saying you're going to do something.
3. Actually doing something.

Are people seriously trying to give Sony shit about what they were alledgedly THINKING about doing? Good grief.

Microsoft graduated their bad ideas from the thinking phase to both the saying AND doing phase, which is why they deserve to be taken to task repeatedly.
 

WeepingAngels

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May 18, 2013
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Silentpony said:
(Don't even bother talking about the Wii U. Its a joke not a system)
It's the only current gen console I own and have any desire to own. Why is it a joke?
 

JimB

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Apr 1, 2012
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I'm honestly a little insulted by this episode. Mr. Sterling, I understand that you were just making a joke, but trying to pass off the gifts you've been mailed as some kind of "shut up, I'm right" card is nothing better than the worst kind of appeal to populism, and I expect better of you than to pass off that sort of tripe. You do not win because you have fans who send you stuff. You win because he rules of debate clearly state the person who has the pinkest tie wins, not because the tie was a gift. For shame, Mr. Sterling, for shame.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
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THATS MY PURSE said:
Oh dear. Looks like with the abolition of TVTVTV and ADVERTISING and the announcement that Microsoft's going to put all their money into games like their consumers wanted them to do. The "Journalism" community is aghast because all that filthy lucre is now going to disappear. What a goddamn pitty. Better make a hastily made video about how it's a totally loser console for losers because they decided to do what consumers wanted and not the media and advertisers. Your superiors at Defy Media are probably chewing their arms off.
I'm confused. Which of Jim's services were being advertised by Xbox? Why was he critical before?
 

The Great JT

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I don't want to debate you, Jim, because you're constantly right about everything. Debating it would just be superfluous.

As for Microsoft's spin-doctoring, yeah, never forget and don't forgive 'em. Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
 

Demonchaser27

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Mar 20, 2014
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theApoc said:
So Jim is complaining about a situation that he and the others who are like him created? You are complaining because they backed off of creating a media device and subsequently neutered it to stop the whining of people like yourself? It had clear potential that was eliminated the moment the company started making decisions based on game reviewers and silly rant videos.
No he's made it abundantly clear that he's upset because BEFORE they backed off they lied their asses off trying to pretend like they knew what people needed or wanted (obviously they didn't) and that they "couldn't" change it. And then when they changed it (see the lie there) they then, AFTER backing off, lied about always caring about giving choice to the consumer and then acted as though they were heroes to everyone. That's what this episode was about. No one forced Microsoft to go down the route of DRM/Kinect fetish. And when people called them out on it by saying "no we don't want this" they could have had the respect to admit they were wrong, but they didn't. Jim isn't upset because they backpedaled, he's upset because they're habitual liars. Being called on bullshit doesn't give Microsoft the "okay" to pretend like it was really concerned about the customer at all. It wasn't looking out for us, it was looking out for execs and shareholders. Had they apologized, admitted their fault and then fixed things, it could have gone smoother and maybe just MAYBE people would have a reason to trust Microsoft again. But they chose not to. They showed their true colors because they thought they had people by the balls (true dictator fashion) and now that they realized that they didn't, they tried to cover it up and act like they were really just caring about us. Bullshit.
Kinect may not be ready for prime time. But it is better than it was, and it will continue to get better still. And 5 years from now, people will wonder how there was every a device that wasn't spacial aware and capable of true voice command. It was never going to be anything more than a gimmick when it comes to games, and gaming should never have been the focus of the device.

The only thing the failed to do was emphasize the strengths of the kinect as its own thing. Instead they keep trying to tie it to gaming. When many of the features that could actually make it useful are pushed off as secondary.
Your right, it should have been its own device completely separate from gaming. Although you don't have to worry about speech recognition software in the future. If you have Windows PC you can go straight to Control Panel and click 'Speech Recognition' and with the use of a microphone that's far cheaper than Kinect you can have that exact experience.

MS has a terrible marketing department, for all of their devices and all of their software. Not because of what they are producing, but rather because they are marketing these things as if they are following rather than innovating.

The PS4 is no more relevant than the XBOX one, and that has nothing to do with fanboys or hardware. There was no real need for current gen, and they would have been a lot better off waiting until they were able to mass produce true next gen experiences. Until developers can utilize these devices 100%, both machines are a complete waste of money.
Actually even with all their excellent marketing, PS4 hasn't convinced me that its the future. Because sometimes, no amount of marketing can make something that isn't special, be special. PS4 played the Microsoft card and charged for online play acting as though they're using anything other than peer-to-peer or that they couldn't have made the money from devs just like steam does with their servers, instead of charging the end user for what clearly can be done for no extra charge. All that wonderful advertising about the new graphics didn't convince me that it was anymore necessary. Some of us know innovation when we see it. We don't need or are completely uninfluenced by advertisements. We look for evidence, proof beyond the wordplay.

Unfortunately neither device is as relevant as they want it to be. And there isn't a way to utilize these devices more than they already are. They don't use bogus/hidden tech that's exclusive to them anymore. They use x86/x64 based architecture (same as Computer) and have already been noted by several media outlets, devs and guys like Rich of ReviewTechUSA that these systems are tapped out. Devs are hitting more walls, faster than they have in any generation prior. They can barely get 1080p on games. Now that being said, I couldn't give a flip really. I'm not a "Graphics first, Gameplay last" kind of guy, but that being said it's still the case that these machines don't have any hidden features or horsepower to fall back on. Developers have already stated that much. The reason devs figured out secrets to "unlocking" the power of PS3 was because they had to learn to code with the insanely ridiculous CPU core they had on PS3. Once they figured that out (usually only done on exclusives) they could increase the power and offload resources more towards the CPU since it was the most powerful thing in the console. That just isn't going to happen on architecture that developers have been accustomed to for years (x86/x64), which is exactly what these consoles are using. And to the cloud, there have already been numerous articles as to why the cloud isn't going to redeem their lack of power in the systems.
 

klaynexas3

My shoes hurt
Dec 30, 2009
1,525
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theApoc said:
Every bonus you just stated for the always-on part is something that could be done if a person just leaves it connected to the internet, but not having to require it. Some people don't want to have to connect to the internet to play games on a console. Over half of the 360 user base did not have XBL accounts, and so most likely were not connected to the internet at all times. Therefore, with that policy alone, Microsoft alienated half of their consumer base. The advantages, in today's world, do not out weigh the disadvantages.

As for the Kinect, there is also no reason to have been required, as seen by the fact that the XBone is doing better now without it. While it might add more ways to interact with the game, it should have remained an option. As with the "less fiddling about for non-gamers," I have to ask, how? Are they so brain dead to not know how to use a controller? If they're wanting to use TV, Netflix, Hulu, anything like that, shouldn't they know how to use a remote? A controller is simply a remote meant to be held for longer periods of time. So that shouldn't be the case.

There are so few advantages to the tier 1 XBone that, for so many people, do not out weigh the disadvantages. That is what's so anti-consumer about it.
 

senordesol

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Oct 12, 2009
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Fasckira said:
Picture the scene; I'm delivering a parcel to a friend whos moved to a new house that I've never been to before. I've got a rough idea of how to get there, advice from friends and a vague map. While the journey in theory is a few streets away, I make a mess of it - I end up going down cul-de-sacs, I get stuck in one way streets but eventually I make it to the house and drop off the parcel.

Was the journey a fuck-up? Hah, definetly. Was it a failure? Well, no - the package was delivered.

I understand the sentiment behind what you're saying but I cant help feel its a bit silly to hold a grudge in such a way, almost cutting off your own nose to spite your face.
Your analogy only works if a bunch of people lining the streets are shouting directions at you, but you ignore them anyway.

You may have gotten it right eventually, true, but you can't pretend that you 'figured it out' for yourself.
 

Demonchaser27

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Mar 20, 2014
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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Any reason to give Microsoft shit, eh? Same with EA, Ubisoft, etc. People can't get enough of not just criticizing these big companies but rather making a big deal out of everything, and if they decide to reverse course and do something smart? By all means lets shame them for that as well. If anyone wonders why they don't seem to care about "you" as a customer, maybe its because "you" have a tendency to badmouth them no matter what they do. If it were me I'd care very little about the opinions of folks who never had one good thing to say about me, yet go out of their way to talk shit.
Jim bad mouthed them because they're habitual liars. He states clearly what the problem with them is in the episode. He said that it's good that they changed, but don't trust them because of why they changed. Don't forget what they stood for and probably still stand for. They didn't change because they realized they were wrong. They lied and changed only because they couldn't get away with doing what they wanted to do originally, irrespective of how it would effect the user. You're right about one thing. They don't or won't listen to their customer, but not because they shouldn't, but because they think they know better.
 

Anaphyis

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Jun 17, 2008
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ex275w said:
The thing is, the Xbox One and PS4 audience is the one most willing to join gaming sites, read the news, etc. The Wii U and 3DS is more of a niche and Nintendo games do tend to attract younger audiences who won't join gaming sites and read the news. As for PC gaming... I guess they already have their news site or niche community.
And Vita gamers share their information on a telnet BBS installed on some hacked NSA server while drinking chai latte.

No. That's not "the thing." That's complete and utter nonsense. I hope you don't treat actual social groups with such broad generalizations as you do plastic video game toy owners.
 

cyvaris

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May 10, 2011
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The Great JT said:
Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
Considering Mass Effect:The Next One will also release on PC (and Sunset Overdrive is rumored to as well) there is really no reason to buy an Xbone. Even if SO doesn't come to PC, it's not worth buying the Xbone.
 

PoloniumFist

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Aug 30, 2011
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I simply cannot compete with Jim. Not after this. Maybe not ever and he's only now shown me why I was always a pleb.

Thank you for having mercy!

Seriously though, that Mysterio print/painting is ballin'.
 

The Great JT

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cyvaris said:
The Great JT said:
Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
Considering Mass Effect:The Next One will also release on PC (and Sunset Overdrive is rumored to as well) there is really no reason to buy an Xbone. Even if SO doesn't come to PC, it's not worth buying the Xbone.
My computer isn't very good...I am shamed.
 

AJ_Lethal

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Jun 29, 2014
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Even though this was pretty much a repeat of last year's XBO episode, I must say the XBO is the first time I saw someone shitting the goodwill they built with their previous console in purpose. And Sony capitalized on that, leaving MS biting the dust. And I considered PS consoles as made of "unfullfilled promises" (hi, Mr. Kutaragi)

Heck, even the Wii U has more chances of picking up the slack than the XBO.
 

Rabidkitten

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Sep 23, 2010
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So now its literally just a PS4 that plays Titan Fall, and not Bloodborne? Whelp, I like my souls games, so suck it MS.
 

WildFire15

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Jun 18, 2008
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A lot of fools seem to have been involved in developing Windows 8 and, by extension, Xbox One and it shows. So many things the One can't do but the 360 can, not to mention the 360 generally does stuff faster. I can live with Kinect being part of the package, but the fact so little was finished or left out is ridiculous.
I defiantly appreciate the fact they've taken steps to improve the thing, but doesn't make me any happier it was in that state to start with.
Not that I trust Sony much more. They mainly seem to be getting away with stuff as they're not making quite the same howlers at Microsoft.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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I feel consoles are a dying breed. Sony and Microsoft seem to lose money hand over fist with them, their investors want out of the video game divisions, this generation is just a load of meh and failure... I don't include Nintendo in that because they seem to be in a league of their own, doing their own thing.

Not looking good at all :/
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

I never asked for this
Sep 8, 2011
6,652
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The thing about Microsoft has always been their desire to control user experience to an extreme. And now they finally have the technology to do it. In their mind, if you're not using something the way they intended it to be used, then you shouldn't be allowed to use it at all. That's why they're such huge advocates of cloud computing and that's why they initially designed the Xbone as the most anti-consumer device in the history of technology. It really bugs them that they had to change all of their anti-consumer policies.

But they're not evil. They are genuinely completely out of touch with reality. They actually believe that they know what is best for you better than you do. This is also why they'll never admit a mistake, and why they keep saying that Kinect is an integral part of their vision. IT IS! They're not fuckin' lying or joking. They are simply insane.

This is why I keep telling people not to buy the Xbone even if they made all the changes after the initial reveal. You just can't trust them not to screw you over again. They will revert back to the old horrible Xbone or something worse as soon as they see the opportunity. We're talking about a company that is completely enamored with the idea of cloud based EVERYTHING.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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WildFire15 said:
A lot of fools seem to have been involved in developing Windows 8 and, by extension, Xbox One and it shows. So many things the One can't do but the 360 can, not to mention the 360 generally does stuff faster. I can live with Kinect being part of the package, but the fact so little was finished or left out is ridiculous.
I defiantly appreciate the fact they've taken steps to improve the thing, but doesn't make me any happier it was in that state to start with.
Not that I trust Sony much more. They mainly seem to be getting away with stuff as they're not making quite the same howlers at Microsoft.
I'm fairly certain the video game and console development groups of Microsoft are entirely separate from the software side. They share a name and nothing else. So no one that had their hands on the One would also be working on Windows 8.
 

Makabriel

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547
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Sooo... What if it wasn't lies?

/dodges pitchforks.

It's entirely possible that both of those key points were locked into development as key pieces to the XBone. It could be that the Kinnect was -never- intended to be removed, and that the XBox was -never- intended to be offline. A lot of really big people staked their careers on these statements. And when the backlash hit, they made it happen. They made it so that you could have the Kinnect off, and you could be offline.

Why does it have to be lies? Why can't it be a company realizing they fucked up in thinking they knew what they thought we wanted and adapted to what we told them we really wanted.

To me this feel like the conspiracy theory nutjobs that think the government is working their way into imprisoning everyone in re-education camps. It makes no sense to a rational person. As it makes no sense that a company would nuter themselves when it's easier to re-engineer to give what the customer wants.

IMHO, of course..
 

Pebkio

The Purple Mage
Nov 9, 2009
780
0
0
Console? What are consoles? Microsoft designs an operating system, right? My PC didn't come with a kinect so I'm not sure what you're referencing here.

Are you talking about those drab boxes you used to plug into TVs and they played games without the accessibility of user-made content? Yeah, those went out the window when everyone realized that exclusivity and big budgets were just obvious tools used to try to keep game design for the elite. But nobody was fooled by that. Now everything is funded with kickstarter and available through the marketplaces accessed by any computer which I can connect to any TV in the house.

Wait... which universe am I in again? Dammit!
 

RJ 17

The Sound of Silence
Nov 27, 2011
8,687
0
0
Not for nothin', Jim, but did we really need this episode? I'm pretty sure that for the majority of the gaming community you're preaching to the choir on this one. We all know that MS was a bunch of dirty liars when when announced the XBone...everything about their presentation and subsequent attempts at defense was based upon lies.

Now I'm not saying forgive and forget, just that the Jimquisition is normally a place to come for a new perspective - namely yours - on things. But then again, you wouldn't be the only editorial personality to do a show where you just tell everyone what they already know and want to hear parroted back to them. :p
 

Nurb

Cynical bastard
Dec 9, 2008
3,078
0
0
People saw this shit coming, people knew how much garbage they were shoveling, but people didn't care and bought it anyway. Same goes with the lesser amount of BS sony pulled.

Early adopters are seen as suckers by companies now, and people should learn their lesson. Anyone that bought the consoles day one deserves to be out the extra money.
 

Knarral

New member
Dec 10, 2013
4
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0
The Great JT said:
cyvaris said:
The Great JT said:
Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
Considering Mass Effect:The Next One will also release on PC (and Sunset Overdrive is rumored to as well) there is really no reason to buy an Xbone. Even if SO doesn't come to PC, it's not worth buying the Xbone.
My computer isn't very good...I am shamed.
Why spend $400 on an Xbone when you can spend that $400 on PC hardware so you have a better PC? I mean, a decent "above modern console grade" PC is about $700 give or take, and from then on it's just upgrading what you already have one piece at a time whenever you feel like you have the cash to spend on it. And Steam sales means, if you wait to buy games until they're on sale, you spend WAAAAAAAAAAY less on games.
 

Knarral

New member
Dec 10, 2013
4
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0
youji itami said:
theApoc said:
So Jim is complaining about a situation that he and the others who are like him created? You are complaining because they backed off of creating a media device and subsequently neutered it to stop the whining of people like yourself? It had clear potential that was eliminated the moment the company started making decisions based on game reviewers and silly rant videos.

Kinect may not be ready for prime time. But it is better than it was, and it will continue to get better still. And 5 years from now, people will wonder how there was every a device that wasn't spacial aware and capable of true voice command. It was never going to be anything more than a gimmick when it comes to games, and gaming should never have been the focus of the device.

The only thing the failed to do was emphasize the strengths of the kinect as its own thing. Instead they keep trying to tie it to gaming. When many of the features that could actually make it useful are pushed off as secondary.

MS has a terrible marketing department, for all of their devices and all of their software. Not because of what they are producing, but rather because they are marketing these things as if they are following rather than innovating.

The PS4 is no more relevant than the XBOX one, and that has nothing to do with fanboys or hardware. There was no real need for current gen, and they would have been a lot better off waiting until they were able to mass produce true next gen experiences. Until developers can utilize these devices 100%, both machines are a complete waste of money.

There never will be a "true next gen experience" we are at the end of CPU and GPU performance improvements physics has beaten us.
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my 1440p 120fps PC gaming experience with 2 780s.
 

SonOfVoorhees

New member
Aug 3, 2011
3,509
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0
Apart from the lame bash MS vid. Guess you have nothing to say this week. Thing is MS gave their speech, people moaned, MS changed to the moaners, and the moaners moaned about the changes they moaned about. This reminds me when Sony took out the backward compatibility (among other things)and it was an issue but over the years the PS3 did well because people bought the games that BC gave for free. Even on PS4 they are making money from old games. Now for me both the PS4/XB1 both fail at the moment games wise as their is no killer title. Its lame to keep beating the XB1, same as people keep beating ME3. It sucks, get over it. Its a piece of hardware, just dont buy it. People are acting like MS killed their kids.
 

Canadamus Prime

Robot in Disguise
Jun 17, 2009
14,334
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0
One has to wonder how these companies are able to still do business. The only conclusion I can come up with is that the majority of their customers are morons, or too wrapped up in instant gratification, or both. Probably both.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Apr 18, 2011
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There was a surprising lack of content in this video. I think it's fairly obvious for everyone but the hardcore fan crowd (and the unenlightened consumer that just bought it for the kids), that this is an unethical machine to purchase, and that it has been ever since release.

It might have been more prudent and interesting to point out what the consequences are, or both buying it and not buying it. Even though Microsoft seems like a bottomless pit of money, it will be a gigantic loss for the gaming community and culture, if they stopped making consoles and games. For one thing it'd squash competition. On the other hand, might we be better off despite that?

So many things to discuss and debate... I'm sad that this video didn't encourage any of it.
 

LoneWolf83

New member
Apr 8, 2014
37
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0
Fancy Pants said:
WildFire15 said:
A lot of fools seem to have been involved in developing Windows 8 and, by extension, Xbox One and it shows. So many things the One can't do but the 360 can, not to mention the 360 generally does stuff faster. I can live with Kinect being part of the package, but the fact so little was finished or left out is ridiculous.
I defiantly appreciate the fact they've taken steps to improve the thing, but doesn't make me any happier it was in that state to start with.
Not that I trust Sony much more. They mainly seem to be getting away with stuff as they're not making quite the same howlers at Microsoft.
I'm fairly certain the video game and console development groups of Microsoft are entirely separate from the software side. They share a name and nothing else. So no one that had their hands on the One would also be working on Windows 8.
It's not the people who actually developed Windows 8 and the Xbone, it's the executives higher up in the company. The thing is: Microsoft hasn't always been this way they learned it from Apple and Apple is only able to get away with it because they have been viewed as the underdog in the desktop market and they managed to popularize smart phones and tablets. What the suits at Microsoft don't understand is they can't be another Apple, Apples ability to control the devices they sell is a fluke.
 

youji itami

New member
Jun 1, 2014
231
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Knarral said:
youji itami said:
theApoc said:

There never will be a "true next gen experience" we are at the end of CPU and GPU performance improvements physics has beaten us.
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my 1440p 120fps PC gaming experience with 2 780s.

The GTX 780 uses the GK110 GPU which is a chip over 2 years old (first released in 2012 on the Tesla K20) it uses 28nm manufacturing which we are still using today the successor 20nm was supposed to have appeared in 2013 then delayed to this year now it's delayed to late 2015.
 
Dec 16, 2009
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Andy Shandy said:
Not sure what to make of this episode.

On the one hand, I don't particularly disagree with anything that has been said. But on the other hand, now that the Xbox One has changed, and to something people actually want, it does kind of seem like looking for excuses to dislike it.
I think one of the biggest bug bears is that MS said the XBOne could not function without DRM/cloud, yet its functioning fine and MS have yet to own up to that lie while once again pulling the same trick with Kinect.
canadamus_prime said:
One has to wonder how these companies are able to still do business. The only conclusion I can come up with is that the majority of their customers are morons, or too wrapped up in instant gratification, or both. Probably both.
or unaware, if you dont keep as uptodate with the gaming press and forums, you probably miss half these bloopers. although it does shock me that informed gamers have hopped into bed with XBOne, MS are proven unreliable with their curent gen promises. sad really
Makabriel said:
Snip

Why does it have to be lies? Why can't it be a company realizing they fucked up in thinking they knew what they thought we wanted and adapted to what we told them we really wanted.

snip
I guess because so little is done by MS to address those statements of these things being integral.
 

SnowWookie

New member
Nov 22, 2012
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youji itami said:
Knarral said:
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my 1440p 120fps PC gaming experience with 2 780s.

The GTX 780 uses the GK110 GPU which is a chip over 2 years old (first released in 2012 on the Tesla K20) it uses 28nm manufacturing which we are still using today the successor 20nm was supposed to have appeared in 2013 then delayed to this year now it's delayed to late 2015.
Which is relevant how? Who cares what the underlying hardware is? The point is that while the so-called "next gen" consoles were struggling at launch to achieve 1080p PC gamers have already moved on to bigger and better things.

And here's the best bit. I just upgraded my PC. It's better, faster, cooler and quieter than it was before and I can still play every game I own. In fact, I can go play Borderlands 2 (for example) and it looks BETTER than it did before.
 

crackfool

New member
Mar 13, 2010
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This video makes me sad. I remember back around 2008-2010, when The Escapist had truly interesting content. They had some great writers and editors (Russ Pitts, Susan Arendt), and some great (and regular) weekly columns from people who actually understand the gaming industry, like Shamus Young and JP Sherman. And then there was Extra Credits, before The Escapist drove them out and selected the worst content creator possible. These days, it seems like this site is all about the Jim Sterling brand: click bait titles, "contrarian" reviews that are all about their "edgy" scores instead of insightful critique (I remember when they refused to have review scores for this exact same reason), "whine pieces" based on straw man arguments, and pandering to reddit crowd to illicit an emotional response based on out-of-context information. I miss the days when The Escapist was all about unique articles from different perspectives. Now it's about getting upvotes on reddit, and trying to emulate Kotaku.
 

Saltyk

Sane among the insane.
Sep 12, 2010
16,755
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0
The Xbox One is a failure?

Good. I wanted it to fail. With all the various kinds of shit (to simply imply it was only bull shit would not fully illustrate the quantity) they tried to shovel down our throats while claiming it was awesome and totally for "our benefit", it needed to fail. I don't want any company to think they can get away with the sort of nonsense that Microsoft tried to pull and do well. They need to see that trying to screw your customers and lying to their faces will cause them to go elsewhere.

My only fear is that some executive will merely think that we "weren't ready" for a DRM machine and try to repeat the same mistakes in the future.
 

Knarral

New member
Dec 10, 2013
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SnowWookie said:
youji itami said:
Knarral said:
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of my 1440p 120fps PC gaming experience with 2 780s.

The GTX 780 uses the GK110 GPU which is a chip over 2 years old (first released in 2012 on the Tesla K20) it uses 28nm manufacturing which we are still using today the successor 20nm was supposed to have appeared in 2013 then delayed to this year now it's delayed to late 2015.
Which is relevant how? Who cares what the underlying hardware is? The point is that while the so-called "next gen" consoles were struggling at launch to achieve 1080p PC gamers have already moved on to bigger and better things.

And here's the best bit. I just upgraded my PC. It's better, faster, cooler and quieter than it was before and I can still play every game I own. In fact, I can go play Borderlands 2 (for example) and it looks BETTER than it did before.
That's my point exactly. The "true next gen gaming experience" is already here. It's always been here. It's PC. It always has been, and it probably always will be.
 

lnin0

New member
Jul 1, 2014
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I like the Xbox One and enjoy Kinect voice control to manage my game playing and TV viewing. Did it live up to the hype machine MS peddled leading up to and shortly after its release - probably not...but then, what does?

I don't blame MS for having a poorly communicated vision of the future. I won't say they have a poor vision of the future because, frankly, nobody waited to see it through. Granted, I think a lot of the old management team put the cart before the horses. Misguided as they may have been, you have to realize in a huge organization there are a lot of voices deciding how things get spun.

I surely won't discount the idea that drm and digital distribution is the future. You would be an idiot to not think that is the case. Sony may have trolled MS for a quick win over the entire drm thing, but don't fool yourself, it wasn't because Sony is the gamers friend trying to stave off the death knell of physical media. They did it because, at the time, they had no answer to Microsoft's features. Features which, btw, where introduce a couple months later by Steam and people gushed with love for Valve.

I am glad to see major changes from the top down with the Xbox division - from the leads to the marketing. Not that I wish any ill will to those folks but the new team seems to have a much more gamer centric vision. So far, I like what I have seen. Does it make it all better, no but I won't fault MS for trying to right the ship, even if it did have to take on water first. Same thing happen to Sony when it launched the PS3 and they were better for it as well.
 

jut22

New member
Aug 5, 2013
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This line of thinking from Jim is what got me banned from Neo Gaf. I can provide the posts, but I was saying how, at the time of the Kinect removal, MS shouldn't be applauded for removing the Kinect when the early adopters were lied to and screwed over.

Way to speak the truth Jim.
 

disgruntledgamer

New member
Mar 6, 2012
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I'm not one to say "Thank you Sony" after every post like some PS fanboys but without the PS4s success we would of gotten the "Always Online" "TV box" Microsoft wanted, and if they ever get the monopoly the originally think they had that's what we'll end up getting and that's a scary thought......
 

ExtraDebit

New member
Jul 16, 2011
533
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I think microsoft's window trend is happening to their consoles department as well. Remember how we always get one good windows then one back windows then another good windows again?

win98 <--good
win me <---bad
win xp <---- good
win vista <----bad
win 7 <---good
win 8 <---bad

This is happening all over again for the consoles, it's a microsoft thing, they need to sandwich some shit between the good stuff.
 

NuclearKangaroo

New member
Feb 7, 2014
1,919
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the last couple of years ive had no shortage of reasons to hate microsoft

not only their initial plans for the xbox one were beyond disgusting and heave rightfully earned them a loser console and a whole bunch of backpedaling, but on the PC front they seem to actively poison the ecosystem, with the trainwreck that is windows 8 and the blasphemy that is GFWL
 

Metalrocks

New member
Jan 15, 2009
2,406
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lol, from hong kong. good to know im not the only one here who keeps watching escapist videos.

well, good thing i dont intend to buy a xbone since im a pc gamer anyway. but even if i would be a console gamer, i sure will stay far away from the xbone and 100% get a PS4.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
8,473
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Jimothy Sterling said:
5:08 in video
"...Without saying sorry for treating us (early adopters) like fucking idiots."
Why should they apologize to the early adopters?
They were the ones foolish enough to buy an Xbone in spite of all that was disclosed, dissected, and debunked.

If anything, Microsoft would be better if that kind of stupidity were encouraged, and they know it.

EDIT: And there's the Xbone corporate apologists right on schedule spouting the same "Media center" bullshit excuse like it ever meant anything.

Lets get one thing straight: Xbox is a gaming brand. It started as a gaming brand, it was built as a gaming brand and the mass market KNOWS it as a gaming brand thanks to 13+ years of reinforcement. So to suddenly turn around and say "it's not gaming but media in general" is not only weak, it's royally fucking stupid from a marketing perspective because it isn't playing to the brand's strengths.

Marketing it as a console with media features, now THAT makes far more sense.

Because nobody looking for a pure media box is going to sink 500 bucks on an Xbone when you can get the entire package for less than half that, or if you're looking for more bang for 500 bucks, just get it all in a PC (or smart TV if you're wealthy AND lazy).

So lets just cut the marketing bullshit and evaluate the Xbone for what it actually is: A game console with some extra media features.
 

bug_of_war

New member
Nov 30, 2012
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VinLAURiA said:
Yeah, but the major difference is that it only took one instance of backlash for Sony to do a reversal. Xbox One came out, said that the DRM and Kinect were integral to the machine for months and months, only getting rid of the DRM close to launch because they realised that gamers be they casual/niche/hardcore/*insert more shit here* were all moving over to the cheaper and more favourable PS4. And as for the Kinect, it was only until their sales dropped below the Wii U (a console that was arguably marketed just as poorly) that they finally got rid of the machine that was making it more expensive than the PS4. The big difference here is that Sony listened instantly, Microsoft did not.

OT:

Yeah dude...we're all quite aware that Microsoft have been pretty shitty as of late, your previous videos are still up on this site, this kinda just seems like a re-tread to make up for a majority of people disagreeing with you on your last video.
 

Something Amyss

Aswyng and Amyss
Dec 3, 2008
24,760
0
0
theApoc said:
So Jim is complaining about a situation that he and the others who are like him created? You are complaining because they backed off of creating a media device and subsequently neutered it to stop the whining of people like yourself? It had clear potential that was eliminated the moment the company started making decisions based on game reviewers and silly rant videos.
The issue at hand is neither that the Kniect exists or that they've changed their policies, but rather that they ignored their consumers and now have the temerity to talk about payer choice. Unless you're somehow arguing Jim and others like him forced Microsoft to lie to, ignore, dismiss, and even take shots at their customers, then no. They didn't create the situation.

Kinect may not be ready for prime time. But it is better than it was, and it will continue to get better still. And 5 years from now, people will wonder how there was every a device that wasn't spacial aware and capable of true voice command.
That's awesome. Maybe they should have waited five years, since that will almost certainly require revised hardware. Maybe they shouldn't have tried to bundle it. Maybe they shouldn't have tried to bullshit us.

The only thing the failed to do was emphasize the strengths of the kinect as its own thing. Instead they keep trying to tie it to gaming.
Fitting, since the Xbone is largely a gaming console.

MS has a terrible marketing department, for all of their devices and all of their software. Not because of what they are producing, but rather because they are marketing these things as if they are following rather than innovating.
Errr...Have you paid attention to the last year? They didn't follow. They ignored pretty much everyone. They dictated their own reality. They did what you think is positive. And they got eaten alive.

Oddly enough, no matter how awesome you and MS think Kinect is, people don't want it.

The PS4 is no more relevant than the XBOX one, and that has nothing to do with fanboys or hardware. There was no real need for current gen, and they would have been a lot better off waiting until they were able to mass produce true next gen experiences. Until developers can utilize these devices 100%, both machines are a complete waste of money.
By the time they were capable of mass producing a "true next gen experience" the concept of "next gen" would have moved. Welcome to the new era. You want 4K output? 8K is already on the horizon (and "on the horizon" is generous). Better hardware will always be on the horizon, and these boxes are going to keep running into these issues. Meanwhile, while you're telling Sony and Microsoft to wait, people are designing games for hardware nearly a decade old. If nothing else, this gen deals with that. And honestly, that's about all any successive gen is likely to do.

That is, if you want an affordable box. And Microsoft made themselves less affordable by trying to force something the market didn't want. While trivial in the long run, Sony offered somewhat more power at 80% of the price, and that is relevant to the consumer. Sorry, but it is.
 

EffectiveKill

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Feb 22, 2010
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ticklefist said:
Well like the video says, we all knew this was bullshit a year ago.

I think a more topical video would be one that calls out Sony for releasing a new console but little else.
Never going to have unfortunately, from what I have seen of The Escapist, it would not be in Jim's best interest to write/ make a video about anything negative about Sony, even though they have an equal history of fucking over consumers and getting away with it.
 

RedDeadFred

Illusions, Michael!
May 13, 2009
4,896
0
0
Not that I don't agree with everything that was said in the video, but... Can we for once get a video that isn't constant complaining about the shitty nature of the games industry? It's getting depressing. Is there nothing good to celebrate at all? I haven't been watching Jim for that long so maybe complaining incessantly is just his thing.
 

Infernal Lawyer

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Jan 28, 2013
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jut22 said:
This line of thinking from Jim is what got me banned from Neo Gaf. I can provide the posts, but I was saying how, at the time of the Kinect removal, MS shouldn't be applauded for removing the Kinect when the early adopters were lied to and screwed over.

Way to speak the truth Jim.
Please, do.
 

jackpipsam

SEGA fanboy
Jun 2, 2009
830
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0
This episode felt rushed together, as if there was nothing to talk about, but hey let's get mad about something without much meat or meaningful discourse.

Hopefully next weeks will be back to normal greatness from Jim.
 

votemarvel

Regular Member
Legacy
Apr 11, 2020
1,353
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13
Country
England
ExtraDebit said:
I think microsoft's window trend is happening to their consoles department as well. Remember how we always get one good windows then one back windows then another good windows again?

win98 <--good
win me <---bad
win xp <---- good
win vista <----bad
win 7 <---good
win 8 <---bad

This is happening all over again for the consoles, it's a microsoft thing, they need to sandwich some shit between the good stuff.
To be honest I've never understood the dislike of Windows ME. It was really just Windows 98 Third Edition.

I used it quite happily for a very long time and it was only that 'The Battle for Middle-Earth' would only run on Windows XP, that I moved on from it.

While I used both Vista and 7, I honestly feel that now Windows 8 is better than both of them. With the .1 and Spring Updates the system is finally where it needs to be for desktop users.

Of course it still has its irritations for me. Such as user account control being split across the Metro and Classic control panels, but to be honest I can live with that.

Windows 8 for me runs a lot better than Windows 7 did on my system. Plus to be honest I don't even miss the Start Menu any more.

As to the current gen consoles. I don't see myself getting either a PS4 or an Xbox One for a long time to come. I'll likely pick them up near the end of their life cycle.
 

FFMaster

New member
May 13, 2009
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Major issue with this video, why is going back on stuff that the general public disliked a BAD thing? They did apologize in various videos that have already been linked and they removed most of the crap. This is coming form a person who thought they should burn in hell for all the stuff they pulled at the start of the generation as well.

It shouldn't be forgotten that they pulled this rubbish (in case they try it again)but they shouldn't be eternally condemned when they actively fixed the issues that they caused.

Lets compare this to Sony, the ones who can do no wrong (because if you point out what they are doing wrong you get a pitchfork enema), they have released a godo system, but still its lacking features they said they would add (MP3, DLNA), its still lacking that watch then join in feature they showed during the console reveal (when he "joined" a killzone match after watching it). The Main UI people have finally realized will get cluttered quickly and still no external HD.

But this is never mentioned, surly its just as bad to not fix features/add promised features?

I'm guessing from Jims mention about next week and the week afters videos that hes also going one for the PS4 and the WiiU so they will be interesting to see and maybe this will get mentioned, but it still seems weird to demonize a company for fixing issues, even if they did cause the issues in the first place.

Oh I'm also in the "Sony were going to do it to" camp when it came to the DRM due to the whole patenting tech to do it etc etc stuff.

EffectiveKill said:
ticklefist said:
Well like the video says, we all knew this was bullshit a year ago.

I think a more topical video would be one that calls out Sony for releasing a new console but little else.
Never going to have unfortunately, from what I have seen of The Escapist, it would not be in Jim's best interest to write/ make a video about anything negative about Sony, even though they have an equal history of fucking over consumers and getting away with it.
It won't happen because of readership, currently Sony lives in a bit of a echo chamber with its fans decrying how good it is, and a lot of sites (neogaf mostly but occasional negative thread, eurogamer) won't say anything bad about them. You say bad things fans get annoyed and wont' click, bad things about MS and Nintendo get lots of clicks from people who post "ha sony still kicking there arses".

Kinda worried that Sony is heading back into the arrogance mode that bought us the PS3 release :/
 

gamegod25

New member
Jul 10, 2008
863
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Imp Emissary said:
LenticularHomicide said:
> Last week: Slams EA and Ubisoft for apologizing after they lie and fuck up.
> This week: Slams Microsoft for not apologizing after they lie and fuck up.


(Yes, I know that in EA and Ubisoft's case it was because the apologies were ass-covering disingenuous PR fuckery, but the parallel here was too amusing to not point out.)
Hehehe. Out of context that is a little funny. ;)

I hope you're not the only one to not forget about what they tried to do with the X-box One, Jim.

It's good that they had a change of course, but they fought hard to try and keep it the way it was.
Yeah it's like your boy/girlfriend saying they won't cheat on you from now on and isn't that great of them! Good to hear but doesn't change the fact they were pulling shit behind your back in the first place. Nor is it anything close to an apology.

They can back peddle all they want and try to offer a few free games to compare with PS Plus...it doesn't matter to me. This generation I am the consumer dog that finally got pushed too far and bit back. They will not be selling me an Xbone...not now, not ever.
 

theApoc

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Oct 17, 2008
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klaynexas3 said:
theApoc said:
Every bonus you just stated for the always-on part is something that could be done if a person just leaves it connected to the internet, but not having to require it. Some people don't want to have to connect to the internet to play games on a console. Over half of the 360 user base did not have XBL accounts, and so most likely were not connected to the internet at all times. Therefore, with that policy alone, Microsoft alienated half of their consumer base. The advantages, in today's world, do not out weigh the disadvantages.

As for the Kinect, there is also no reason to have been required, as seen by the fact that the XBone is doing better now without it. While it might add more ways to interact with the game, it should have remained an option. As with the "less fiddling about for non-gamers," I have to ask, how? Are they so brain dead to not know how to use a controller? If they're wanting to use TV, Netflix, Hulu, anything like that, shouldn't they know how to use a remote? A controller is simply a remote meant to be held for longer periods of time. So that shouldn't be the case.

There are so few advantages to the tier 1 XBone that, for so many people, do not out weigh the disadvantages. That is what's so anti-consumer about it.
They had doubled their XBLA userbase in the two year prior to XBOX ONE's launch, and it continues to grow, the reasons for the constant connectivity were clear. There was no alienation when almost every major release in the past year has come out for both 360 and XBOX ONE, they were well aware of the transition.

The Kinect is not required, but it should have been bundled. It should not have been compromised for games. If it were optimized as an interface tool, had they focused on the video conferencing aspect, those types of things, it would have made more sense. Especially since it uses skype and thus can connect to anyone doing the same.

They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
 

Magmarock

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LenticularHomicide said:
> Last week: Slams EA and Ubisoft for apologizing after they lie and fuck up.
> This week: Slams Microsoft for not apologizing after they lie and fuck up.


(Yes, I know that in EA and Ubisoft's case it was because the apologies were ass-covering disingenuous PR fuckery, but the parallel here was too amusing to not point out.)
Hmmm yeah as much as I love Jim I'm going to have to agree with the point made here.

I don't particularly have any affection for Microsoft, but in all honesty I don't think they are anywhere near as bad as EA or Actervision. MS might not have openly apologise, but their actions do tell a different story. EA says their sorry while not going anything Ubisfot says DRM is a waist of everyone time but still uses it. Microsoft didn't do much talking but they did take action. I did remove the DRM and the connect from the system which actually makes me kind of like them at this point. They are stubborn and arrogant but by the end of the day they have officially made more changes for the consumers favour then EA, Actervision, or Ubistoft.

When Microsoft shows more customer care then your company you're doing it wrong
 

theApoc

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Oct 17, 2008
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Zachary Amaranth said:
The issue at hand is neither that the Kniect exists or that they've changed their policies, but rather that they ignored their consumers and now have the temerity to talk about payer choice. Unless you're somehow arguing Jim and others like him forced Microsoft to lie to, ignore, dismiss, and even take shots at their customers, then no. They didn't create the situation.
They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them. They ignored the fickle gaming community and got bashed for it. Huge difference. The only failing they have right now would be in caving to the Jim Sterlings of the industry.

That's awesome. Maybe they should have waited five years, since that will almost certainly require revised hardware. Maybe they shouldn't have tried to bundle it. Maybe they shouldn't have tried to bullshit us.
It actually is a software thing, which is getting better all of the time. The kinect is an amazing device when considering how cheap it is to make. LOTS of researchers are using the device for some pretty crazy things, none of which have anything to do with gaming. MS should double down on it as a peripheral and ignore it in terms of gaming.

Fitting, since the Xbone is largely a gaming console.
Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.

MS has a terrible marketing department, for all of their devices and all of their software. Not because of what they are producing, but rather because they are marketing these things as if they are following rather than innovating.
Errr...Have you paid attention to the last year? They didn't follow. They ignored pretty much everyone. They dictated their own reality. They did what you think is positive. And they got eaten alive.

Oddly enough, no matter how awesome you and MS think Kinect is, people don't want it.
Gamers don't want it, and only gamers thinks PS4 is "winning" any more than Wii won last time. Units sold are great, but usage, something that has been growing dramatically for MS and XBLA, well that is something else altogether. "Eaten alive" that's funny...

The PS4 is no more relevant than the XBOX one, and that has nothing to do with fanboys or hardware. There was no real need for current gen, and they would have been a lot better off waiting until they were able to mass produce true next gen experiences. Until developers can utilize these devices 100%, both machines are a complete waste of money.
By the time they were capable of mass producing a "true next gen experience" the concept of "next gen" would have moved. Welcome to the new era. You want 4K output? 8K is already on the horizon (and "on the horizon" is generous). Better hardware will always be on the horizon, and these boxes are going to keep running into these issues. Meanwhile, while you're telling Sony and Microsoft to wait, people are designing games for hardware nearly a decade old. If nothing else, this gen deals with that. And honestly, that's about all any successive gen is likely to do.

That is, if you want an affordable box. And Microsoft made themselves less affordable by trying to force something the market didn't want. While trivial in the long run, Sony offered somewhat more power at 80% of the price, and that is relevant to the consumer. Sorry, but it is.
And you know who realized this? MS. Which is why XBOX ONE was not designed to be a super gaming rig with 3k worth of parts inside. If people want 8k graphics, guess what, they will do that on a PC. Fruit Ninja need next gen? Fez? Peggle? Because those are the things that a lot of average people are playing, just like they are using netflx, hulu, youtube, redbox, etc. Media content delivery and sales. MS is behind the times? Um, no. The built a device that was right in line with what people were ready to have in their living room. "OMG it looks like a cable box..." Ayup, it looks that way on purpose, it blends in for that very reason. Yup it plays games, and it does it just as well as PS4, anyone who tell you differently is to nerdy to matter. They are backing off to shut some of the fanboys up as they get ready to release some bigger titles in the fall. The device is still capable of a lot of things, and I am betting gen2 is going to prove that.
 

theApoc

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Blue Ranger said:
Oh, look, it's one of these guys who doesn't have one god damned clue about anything. There is nothing about these features that you mentioned that required an always online internet, contrary to what you want to believe.

Also, these "alternate control peripherals" are still there. People can still get a Kinect if they want. However, having an alternative control method doesn't mean it should be a requirement and the only control method. Think about that before speaking.
You are pretty sure of yourself for being completely wrong. I applaud you for that.

Always online is required if you want it to happen automatically and to be as unobtrusive as possible. Every internet connected device I have is "always on-line" you know why? Because it is more convenient that way. Claiming that there was some MS conspiracy to screw the customer by wanting constant connectivity is silly. It makes it easy for them to keep the machine up to date, to deliver content when the device is not in use, and to diagnose issues. Just like any other internet connected PC.

Does the kinect need to be used to operate the XBOX one? I mean is it the only way to control the thing, or to play games? Complaining about them charging for an included peripheral is plain silly. Hey, when I bought my TV, I didn't need 4 HDMI ports or a USB port for playing music and pictures, do you think Smasung was trying to screw me by adding those in and charging more than some other brands?

You truly are clueless. Must be boring in summer school.
 

Nytr8

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You know what Jim, I made this account just so I could write this, just for you.
Just to put things in context. Im 37, own all consoles, work in animation and freelance for the industry, oh and teach animation so I know my field, just as you claim to. I have been frequenting this site for years and Zero Punctuation is possibly one of the greatest shows I have ever seen. I watch you on occasion and am amused from time to time.

Recently though, you seem to have made it your responsibility to rag on the xbox one, so I am taking it upon myself to dish out some truth nuggets just for you.

For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik. All this sh1t your slinging at them shows exactly what is wrong with society these days. Unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions. You are one of the many causes for the rampant immature behaviour that is rife across the gaming internet forums. You have a greater responsibility than most as you have a public platform yet you choose to feed your ego rather than use some of that grey matter for good use and start a real debate, as you claim that you are.

They way you present yourself, you leave little room for debate because your so pig-headedly blinded by you self appointed importance. I try to look for the humour in your words but they are heavily laced with venom so the funnies don't taste so good, If you could see yourself from a detached perspective you would see that you are coming across as a whining fanboy that is jumping on the same old bandwagon and beating the same old drum that had been booming since last may. Get over it! We all know the score, we can make up our own minds as to which console to buy to suit out needs. Some of us actually are pleased with what Xbox has managed to accomplish in such a short time since the doombox was announced.

I am a strong supporter of Kinect and use it regularly without issue. But... then again, I am able to follow instructions and speak to the kinect the way It needs to be spoken to. I'm sorry that the Kinect is not aware of your self proclaimed importance so its no wonder it doesn't work for you when your shouting things like: "Dont you know who I am! I'm fuck1ng Jim Sterling, Now play my fuck1ng games..."

I get home in the evening, walk into my living room, say "Xbox on" and smile as I see my tv, surround system and xbox all switch on and greet me on screen. Then depending if I wanna play or watch tv I can then just say "Xbox, play watchdogs. or Xbox, go to 4od, play the it crowd." and blam, I'm in tech heaven. So I can only imagine how you have been trying to interact with your Kinect, actually, maybe I don't wanna know what you do behind closed doors, by the look of it, neither does Kinect :)

So, anyways. I'm sure none of these word will make any difference to you and I'm sure you will continue to smoke that sony pole. But, while your catching your breath between blowing your move controllers maybe you could do some real journalism and approach this new console generation without Sony's jizz all over your face.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Any reason to give Microsoft shit, eh? Same with EA, Ubisoft, etc. People can't get enough of not just criticizing these big companies but rather making a big deal out of everything, and if they decide to reverse course and do something smart? By all means lets shame them for that as well. If anyone wonders why they don't seem to care about "you" as a customer, maybe its because "you" have a tendency to badmouth them no matter what they do. If it were me I'd care very little about the opinions of folks who never had one good thing to say about me, yet go out of their way to talk shit.
Err NO. Its being forgiving which has caused the shit pile that is the modern gaming industry. It is letting minor things pass that has caused the modern gaming industry. It is accepting problems that has caused the modern gaming industry. It is OUR fault. It is the fault of the gamer.

And you know what? Me and many others are sick of it. Completely and utterly sick of it. We are sick of not only getting buttfucked again, but then companies doing 180s and acting like their the good guys for it.

I still believe the most respectful move I've ever seen in the gaming industry was when ATLUS buttfucked PAL regions with Persona 4 Arena's region locking, and instead of covering it with PR said this: "We did it for money. Plainly, and simply, for money. We probably wont do it again because the backlash we are receiving, but we will not ask for forgiveness for this" That move took two things: Incredible balls and respect for the consumer. To not only refuse to back down when they risked their reputation, but not bullshit their consumers. I can respect a company like that.

And that will go down as the only time that move will ever work.
 

Leviathan902

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I have to say that I don't agree with Jim's analysis of the Xbox being a failure because it isn't what Microsoft said it would be. Microsoft said that it would be an all-in-one entertainment hub, and that's exactly what it is.

My Xbox One gets more use than any other system I've ever owned as I do more than just play games on it. I watch TV on it, I Skype with it, I stream my home media to it, I stream Amazon Instant video, Xbox video, Netflix, and Vudu on it.

Sometimes I use the Kinect voice commands to do all this because I have a 2 year old running around the house and chasing her means I don't always have the TV remote in my hands. This is amazing if you have kids, trust me.

All these things it does without having to change inputs and wait for other devices to fire up, it does it faster and simpler with access to more content than any smart TV has ever done (despite Jim's assertions).

Most importantly for me, it eliminates the barriers between content. TV, media streaming, Blu-rays/DVDs, and video games are all easily and quickly accessible. If I haven't touched a game in a few days, but have been watching TV and movies, I can flip back to Guacamelee, and there it is, already loaded, resuming instantly from where I left off. That's a "next-gen" experience for me, regardless of graphics resolution.

It has become the center of my entertainment system, the "all in one" entertainment hub, just like Microsoft promised. Does it do it exactly the way Microsoft originally envisioned? No. Does it change the fact that it's still successful in this? Not all.
 

dWhisper

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I was too amused by the full screen background ad from best Buy that features the Xbox One to get angry at anything. Also, that and I agree with what Jim is saying. But mostly the ad.

I own both the One and the PS4, and honestly, they're both somewhat bad purchases on my part. I play multiplayer games like Ghosts or Titanfall on my One, because that's what my friends are playing. But if I have a choice, and the multiplayer aspect is removed, it's always over to the PS4. They basically just fused the 360 UI with the PS3 UI and called it good, and that works for me.

The One, on the other hand, discarded everything that they'd learned from the 360. You can't even say the name of the stupid product when that stupid Kinect is hooked up, otherwise, it'll assume you want to talk to it. And you never want to talk to the console unless you're swearing at it for doing something wrong. You know, the "XBOX unsnap you stupid piece of #$*&" and the like...
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
Ah yes. Just like Always Online, "it's inevitable".
As inevitable as cancer, and just as welcome.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
A move that was supremely foolish given the Xbox's history as a gaming brand.
 

Demonchaser27

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Mar 20, 2014
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VinLAURiA said:
Y'know, Jim, here's what I don't get.

You're decrying Microsoft for its U-turns and backpedaling from their E3 2013 pitch because they're framing it as a noble decision when they only finally budged on it due to all the backlash... and don't get me wrong - you're in the right for that. But so many people - you included - were so quick to praise the PS4 for pulling the same reversal back then. The fact is, this DRM garbage and the "jack up the price by a hundred bucks for a mandatory spy camera" was all originally going to be the case for the PS4 as well, and Sony explicitly came out and confirmed they quickly rewrote their pitch [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-07-09-microsofts-pr-blunders-caused-sony-to-re-write-e3-playstation-4-script] after the Xbone showing in order to avoid the same backlash the Xbone got, taking advantage of everyone's anger over it and swooping in as some proverbial hero. Everyone celebrated Sony for not going through with their original plan (you sung a song [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jim-yahtzees-rhymedown-spectacular/7467-To-Kill-a-Microsoft-bird] about them!), and now that Microsoft is doing the same thing, you're calling them dishonest.

Now bear in mind, I have no love for the Xbone by any means (only systems I care about are Nintendo's stuff, as usual), but I just find it irritating that it seems to be the sole target of your ire when the PS4 is just as guilty of all this crap but Sony only managed to hide it for longer, and they only came around to admitting it now because they've long secured a lead from the stunt and don't give a damn now. Fact is, they're just as sleazy as Microsoft is and they played you and everyone else like a violin. Where's your anger towards them?
Yeah that's no joke, they even managed to sneak in some secret terms during that press conference like you still can go online for free, just not play multiplayer for free. Sony is hardly a saint in all this. Good business move or no, their just as bad.
 

Demonchaser27

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Adam Jensen said:
The thing about Microsoft has always been their desire to control user experience to an extreme. And now they finally have the technology to do it. In their mind, if you're not using something the way they intended it to be used, then you shouldn't be allowed to use it at all. That's why they're such huge advocates of cloud computing and that's why they initially designed the Xbone as the most anti-consumer device in the history of technology. It really bugs them that they had to change all of their anti-consumer policies.

But they're not evil. They are genuinely completely out of touch with reality. They actually believe that they know what is best for you better than you do. This is also why they'll never admit a mistake, and why they keep saying that Kinect is an integral part of their vision. IT IS! They're not fuckin' lying or joking. They are simply insane.

This is why I keep telling people not to buy the Xbone even if they made all the changes after the initial reveal. You just can't trust them not to screw you over again. They will revert back to the old horrible Xbone or something worse as soon as they see the opportunity. We're talking about a company that is completely enamored with the idea of cloud based EVERYTHING.
This is very true, their newest Office Suite and even the media player (i think) now have REQUIRED online cloud always features to use them. Its pretty ridiculous if you think about it.
 

theApoc

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Oct 17, 2008
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Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
Ah yes. Just like Always Online, "it's inevitable".
As inevitable as cancer, and just as welcome.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
A move that was supremely foolish given the Xbox's history as a gaming brand.
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best. I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
 

Demonchaser27

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theApoc said:
Blue Ranger said:
Oh, look, it's one of these guys who doesn't have one god damned clue about anything. There is nothing about these features that you mentioned that required an always online internet, contrary to what you want to believe.

Also, these "alternate control peripherals" are still there. People can still get a Kinect if they want. However, having an alternative control method doesn't mean it should be a requirement and the only control method. Think about that before speaking.
You are pretty sure of yourself for being completely wrong. I applaud you for that.

Always online is required if you want it to happen automatically and to be as unobtrusive as possible. Every internet connected device I have is "always on-line" you know why? Because it is more convenient that way. Claiming that there was some MS conspiracy to screw the customer by wanting constant connectivity is silly. It makes it easy for them to keep the machine up to date, to deliver content when the device is not in use, and to diagnose issues. Just like any other internet connected PC.
Notice how we already have these very things (updates, content delivery, and diagnostics) on modern systems and computers and how adding required online-always doesn't add anything to the users experience that they didn't already have? Oh sure its useful for Microsoft but none of this is useful for me. I'm still forced to go through updates, online checks and other very obtrusive demands on their command, not when I decide I want to or need to.
It literally takes all of two seconds for my computer to realize its not on the internet and connect... does that mean that I should have to be online for everything I do on said computer? No. Your telling me in this modern Fiber Optic connected world, that you can't be bothered to wait 2 seconds for it to connect BEFORE it updates. And if that's not enough the NOT ALWAYS ONLINE Wii U can actually do system updates while its turned OFF. It still has that amazing convenience of not having to wait without restricting my access to all my software and discs in case the internet connection goes out. And honestly as much as I dislike Steam, you can still use cloud features with it while having access to your games offline, if need be. Yes you have to be online at the time of use, but I'm not (and apparently not many others either) giving up my freedom to use software and hardware when I want just so that I can have 2 secs free of connect time. And if your internet, their server or your ISP goes offline at anytime you get kicked out of the game/software your using and at best case scenario (with the 24 hour check) you don't get kicked, but if internet problems persist, as they usually do, then you can't play period. For what? So we can have 2 seconds to connect not wasted? Those 2 seconds that are going to be prevalent when you first connect after a disconnect anyways. EVERY TIME YOU TURN ON THE CONSOLE. You know unless you want the console to be using electricity for no reason when your not using it. And of course we're forgetting the activation connection that would have been required to access servers every time you boot a game after not playing said game for 24 hours. Is 2 seconds saved for connection time really worth all that?

And that being said I'm a computer enthusiast, there are always instances where you might want to stay on current hardware or drivers and not update. This is because of things like beta drivers and software that don't work properly and occasionally ruin other software programs. One example of this was when Sony actually caused Fat PS3s to burn up due to an update that had an issue with how it handled resources on the system. And it was an avoidable issue with the ability to stay offline, not update and still use your device.

In fact a modern example of this is Star Wars Jedi Knight Dark Forces 2. On current AMD Video Drivers the game doesn't work properly, but if I revert (something companies with online control won't let you do normally) back to old drivers against the will of the AMD auto updater I can magically play my game again. In your paradigm of always online, if a new update ruined my system or rendered games unplayable I would be stuck until Microsoft has decided its worth their time to fix it. Its the same problem that we've seen time and time and time again with other always-online software, such as Assassin's Creed 2, SimCity and Diablo 3. Your ignoring the fact that they do not do this as a service to the customer, but to control the user's experience and leave the freedom of the individual to use the hardware that THEY PURCHASED on the whim of the manufacturer (Microsoft in this case).

Does the kinect need to be used to operate the XBOX one? I mean is it the only way to control the thing, or to play games? Complaining about them charging for an included peripheral is plain silly. Hey, when I bought my TV, I didn't need 4 HDMI ports or a USB port for playing music and pictures, do you think Smasung was trying to screw me by adding those in and charging more than some other brands?

You truly are clueless. Must be boring in summer school.
No however, the problem with this analogy (even if we ignore the ridiculous difference in cost to the user) is that with TVs I can just go buy a TV that doesn't have 4 HDMI slots and a USB slot. There are many brands of televisions. There is true choice there. Microsoft is the only one developing and allowed to sell Xbox One. Microsoft (at time of release) didn't give anyone the choice of not paying the ridiculous extra fee of having Kinect. Your analogy would be more fitting to, say, computers. I can buy tons of different models of computer all with different power variants and slot types and number of slots/hard drives. If I didn't need 2 DVI slots on my video card I would find a cheaper model with no such slots. Aside from this the Kinect didn't give the user anything of value. Maybe I don't need 4 HDMI slots, but I do NEED HDMI slots and might need more in the future depending on what I buy, since you need HDMI for output of most devices these days. I don't need Kinect and already know I don't want any of the software built for it so why should I have to buy it to get the console?

On note of Blue Ranger, He was being incredibly arrogant towards you and I'll go ahead and apologize to you for him, but you doing the same to him doesn't really make your claims any more correct or incorrect.
 

COMaestro

Vae Victis!
May 24, 2010
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theApoc said:
youji itami said:
There never will be a "true next gen experience" we are at the end of CPU and GPU performance improvements physics has beaten us.
I think that is what bugs me the most about rants like Mr. Sterling's. Next gen should not have been about graphics(obviously they would get better). It should not have been about games(obviously there would be new ones). And honestly, for all the complaining he has done in regards to how publishers have become lazy and dishonest, you would think he would have understood the concept of a next gen console that was not centered around games. Instead, MS is "dishonest" for trying to do something different. All of this anti-consumer crap he is spouting is nonsense.

Always online:

- faster less obtrusive updates
- device inter-connectivity
- expanded cloud services

Alternative Control Perpherals

- more connectivity
- more interactivity
- less fiddling for non gamers

To name a few. The assumption that these things were included for the sole purpose of hurting the consumer, makes very little sense, from both a business and technology standpoint. I feel it is he short sightedness of gamers like Jim that is the reason that current Gen doesn't feel quite so impressive.
Your always online points are fine when they are an option, not mandatory. My PS4 is always online because I choose to leave it that way, not because it HAS to be. The concept of a gaming console that will lock you out of ALL your games if it does not call home once a day is just ludicrous, and THAT is what everyone had a problem with. Especially those who have poor or spotty internet access. Even though they said it was a small file that could easily be done using a phone as a hotspot for just a minute, how is that convenient or even wanted by the consumer? It's not! It was essentially a draconian form of DRM that only provided a benefit to MS and none to the consumer.

As for alternative control peripherals, aka the Kinect, many people already stated they did NOT want one after seeing how the original worked. Many don't like the idea of a camera in their house that is "always watching", even if it can be turned off. MS was insistent that the device was an integral part of the console so it could not be disconnected. This was enough to turn people away from the system, despite the later backpedaling by MS allowing the Kinect to be removed. Many feel that motion controls of any sort are just a gimmick and want nothing to do with them. That's well within their rights and if they invested in an Xbox One then they are welcome to just not use the Kinect features. However, the device added $100 to the asking price, which made the console as a whole much less appealing, so many who would have otherwise purchased an Xbox One without a Kinect chose to forego the console entirely.

If MS had truly had faith in their vision of a next-gen console, they should have stuck to their guns and released the Xbox One the way they originally intended. If it was as great as they were claiming, then people would have realized it in time and invested in this "revolutionary" console. But they didn't. Why? Because they saw poor pre-order numbers and realized that their anti-consumer policies and vision were not going to fly with the majority of consumers.

I will agree that graphics do not make a console "next-gen" however I disagree with your idea that next-gen should not be about games. Of COURSE it should be about games when it comes to a GAMING console! For these consoles, NOTHING should be more important than advances in the games. Not just graphics, as you said that should come naturally, but in the AI, in the gameplay, in the expanse of levels and maps. Just "doing something different" does not automatically make something better or more advanced. The Wii did something different with motion controls, setting off the whole shebang of motion controls that MS and Sony both tried to copy, but that didn't make the Wii a better console over the 360 or PS3 to many people. Especially considering all the shovelware that later released on the platform, leaving very few quality games for the system.

MS is not "dishonest" for trying to do something different. They are dishonest for claiming that the Xbox HAD to work a certain way, then later changing their tune when sales reports were poor in order to try to move more consoles, then changing it yet again from the way it HAD to work when sales still weren't good enough. THAT is why MS is dishonest.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
8,407
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0
thats it guys and girls, he has a mysterio painting, we lost, lets take our things and go home.

seriusly now: this episode seems to not had the same vibe as others, maybe you werent agressive enough or something. i do agree with this one completely except the could be appreciated part, even if we ignore all the lies, and thats a huge if, its still a shitty machine. and also they have INCREASED its price too.
before: Xbox 300 dollars, Kinect 200 dollars
Kinect-Free: Xbox 400 dollars, Kinect bought seperately 200 dollars



QtheMuse said:
Jim, I am pretty sure that tie is suppose to look like a penis.

All hail the penis tie.
all ties are supposed to look like a penis. the sole purpose of a tie is a huge arrow pointing toward your penis, which makes it extremely cringeworthy when a woman wears one.


babinro said:
Shouldn't this site be flooded with WiiU, handheld console, PC games coverage while Xbox One and PS4 get maybe 1/10th the attention of those? Wouldn't this be sending a more positive message about the gaming industry through your actions?
The site posts what its users want to read. they express that by, well, clicking on the article and giving escapist advertisement revenue. if you look at comment threads, the negative Xbox/PS4 threads are oberwhelmingly dominating comapred to other news. so its given that much attention because people actually keep reading that and discussing. if noone clicked on those articles they would be gone quickly.

Leviathan902 said:
I have to say that I don't agree with Jim's analysis of the Xbox being a failure because it isn't what Microsoft said it would be. Microsoft said that it would be an all-in-one entertainment hub, and that's exactly what it is.

My Xbox One gets more use than any other system I've ever owned as I do more than just play games on it. I watch TV on it, I Skype with it, I stream my home media to it, I stream Amazon Instant video, Xbox video, Netflix, and Vudu on it.

Sometimes I use the Kinect voice commands to do all this because I have a 2 year old running around the house and chasing her means I don't always have the TV remote in my hands. This is amazing if you have kids, trust me.

All these things it does without having to change inputs and wait for other devices to fire up, it does it faster and simpler with access to more content than any smart TV has ever done (despite Jim's assertions).

Most importantly for me, it eliminates the barriers between content. TV, media streaming, Blu-rays/DVDs, and video games are all easily and quickly accessible. If I haven't touched a game in a few days, but have been watching TV and movies, I can flip back to Guacamelee, and there it is, already loaded, resuming instantly from where I left off. That's a "next-gen" experience for me, regardless of graphics resolution.

It has become the center of my entertainment system, the "all in one" entertainment hub, just like Microsoft promised. Does it do it exactly the way Microsoft originally envisioned? No. Does it change the fact that it's still successful in this? Not all.
so basically you use it like a 200 dollar multimedia PC, except it costs you 500 dollars instead. Oh and yes its gaming power could warrant a 450 dollar PC or so but you claim its hardly central use.
 

ace_of_something

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People will forget this. Like how they forgot the crazy high amount of RROD's on xbox360's for the first few years.

Also, I know it's been said but it bears repeating; That is totally a penis tie.
 

hydrolythe

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Imperioratorex Caprae said:
Any reason to give Microsoft shit, eh? Same with EA, Ubisoft, etc. People can't get enough of not just criticizing these big companies but rather making a big deal out of everything, and if they decide to reverse course and do something smart? By all means lets shame them for that as well. If anyone wonders why they don't seem to care about "you" as a customer, maybe its because "you" have a tendency to badmouth them no matter what they do. If it were me I'd care very little about the opinions of folks who never had one good thing to say about me, yet go out of their way to talk shit.
How do you explain how Jim Sterling was insulting the indie community in the early access episode?
How do you explain that he criticized the cycle of apologies the developers are throwing at us and insulting us for accepting that because we like seeing the big corporate industries say that they are wrong?

Secondly, there are moments in which he actually defended big corporate industries against the consumer (he defended nintendo when they were fixing the gay marriage option in Tomodachi Life).
 

hydrolythe

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Knarral said:
The Great JT said:
cyvaris said:
The Great JT said:
Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
Considering Mass Effect:The Next One will also release on PC (and Sunset Overdrive is rumored to as well) there is really no reason to buy an Xbone. Even if SO doesn't come to PC, it's not worth buying the Xbone.
My computer isn't very good...I am shamed.
Why spend $400 on an Xbone when you can spend that $400 on PC hardware so you have a better PC? I mean, a decent "above modern console grade" PC is about $700 give or take, and from then on it's just upgrading what you already have one piece at a time whenever you feel like you have the cash to spend on it. And Steam sales means, if you wait to buy games until they're on sale, you spend WAAAAAAAAAAY less on games.
Because on a console developers exactly know how far they can go in terms of graphical capabilities. They can see the limitations of a console and use them as their own. For the PC there are way too many graphic cards on the market and developers will just have a hard time figuring out how developed the PC will be for the average consumer base.

The above is the reason why there are so many games on consoles that never see their transition to PC. I could understand that games that do not rely on graphics did only have the PC to reside in, but with Sony and Microsoft's new policies to get indie developers quicker working for them on colsoles that advantage minimizes over time.

And yes, there is steam, but it just keeps getting less and less relevant over time, due to the fact that lots of games on steam are never played.

Secondly, ever tried to purchase games on last-gen consoles? You can get a last-gen console for like 150$ and most of the games only cost around 15$ (and if you are already happy with primitive graphics, check out the games for even older consoles, most consoles cost around 40$ and their games around 5$). Steam has nothing on this.
 

SeventhSigil

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theApoc said:
youji itami said:
There never will be a "true next gen experience" we are at the end of CPU and GPU performance improvements physics has beaten us.
I think that is what bugs me the most about rants like Mr. Sterling's. Next gen should not have been about graphics(obviously they would get better). It should not have been about games(obviously there would be new ones). And honestly, for all the complaining he has done in regards to how publishers have become lazy and dishonest, you would think he would have understood the concept of a next gen console that was not centered around games. Instead, MS is "dishonest" for trying to do something different. All of this anti-consumer crap he is spouting is nonsense.

Always online:

- faster less obtrusive updates
- device inter-connectivity
- expanded cloud services

Alternative Control Perpherals

- more connectivity
- more interactivity
- less fiddling for non gamers

To name a few. The assumption that these things were included for the sole purpose of hurting the consumer, makes very little sense, from both a business and technology standpoint. I feel it is he short sightedness of gamers like Jim that is the reason that current Gen doesn't feel quite so impressive.

Okie, first I do have to question exactly what it is you're blaming the 'shortsighted gamers' for here. Is it just that they're vocally outraged on the internet? Cause... you realize that Internet anger wasn't the primary motivation behind the removal of the Kinect, right?

At least during the DRM reversal, there was a bit of wiggle room in terms of the 'Pfffft, abysmally low preorders didn't make Microsoft reverse the DRM policy, they did it cause they liiiistenn to gaaameeers.' But this is significantly more cut-and-dry; Microsoft might have, via the various expressions of discontent on the Internet, learned WHAT to do to try and improve its image and boost its sales numbers, but bottom line they only did it because those sales numbers so direly needed boosting in the first place, right? If we were hearing, literally, exactly the same level of discontent here on the Internet, but the Xbox One was selling at, or especially above the PS4's level with the Kinect still a mandatory attachment, there's no way in Hell Microsoft would have done removed it, correct? The desire to change, whether it was the Kinect, or removing the paywall around apps, etc, came not from fluffy love in their heart, but rather from recognition that their numbers weren't going to reach whatever targets they had set, and therefore seeking to take steps to fix it. o.o

So, if gamers are at fault of anything, it's that they didn't buy the console before the Kinect-removal.

Which means your criticism for these 'shortsighted' gamers... is that they didn't just shut up and buy the console they didn't want to buy? That many of them, God forbid, wanted to wait for worthwhile Kinect-centric software to be released, software that would coax them into the fold, instead of just assuming it would someday (eventually) maybe (probably) happen? Especially those who eagerly bought the first Kinect, only to end up with a device that, by accounts given, did noooot live up to its promises?

Please tell me it isn't that, because I don't think my heart can take the thought that we've come to the point of blaming other gamers, literally, for being cautious and reasonable consumers and not buying into pure hype. It's like getting cross at gamers for not pre-ordering games just because 'yeah, they'll probably be good! What, the last installment was kind of rubbish? Pffft nonesense, all on board the pre-order train! No refunds!' o.o


Second... you already HAVE the 'Alternate Control Peripheral,' because when it comes to 'less fiddling for non gamers' at least, the Kinect is still going to exist, right? If this decision to remove it has impacted anything, it's how many Kinect-centric game titles might be developed for it, but its capabilities are a sort of Xbox-equivalent Siri and such won't be affected. o_O Anyone who wants to buy it, and even buy the bundle, can still do so, and let's face it, there is a slim chance non-gamers will BUY the Kinect console (meaning they might win it or get it from some cable deal or something) but there is literally no chance non-gamers will buy the Kinectless one instead.



Finally, I think you're forgetting just how bad Microsoft's marketing was. Their 'new direction' was so incredibly innovative, they didn't seem to have any idea how to actually make it sound appealing to most consumers. Between mixed messages from different executives, features that weren't properly explained until, ironically, after they were cancelled, outright cancelled interviews and axed round table discussions that would have given them the perfect chance to explain things before everything got out of hand, the message Microsoft was giving off through its desperate efforts to avoid giving a message was 'Well, we already know exactly why this is a good idea for OUR side of the fence. You guys... we're still trying to figure out how to make you not hate it, and make it sound like something you'll actually like as a group. Just... sit there, we'll figure out a way to spin this as a good idea.'

If this was intended to be a consumer benefit, (even if the benefit was split evenly between consumer and corporation,) then why did Microsoft so thoroughly mess up what should have been a simple thing to explain? Why were they so afraid of the press? Not like they didn't have months before E3 to work on it.
 

hydrolythe

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Nytr8 said:
You know what Jim, I made this account just so I could write this, just for you.
Just to put things in context. Im 37, own all consoles, work in animation and freelance for the industry, oh and teach animation so I know my field, just as you claim to. I have been frequenting this site for years and Zero Punctuation is possibly one of the greatest shows I have ever seen. I watch you on occasion and am amused from time to time.

Recently though, you seem to have made it your responsibility to rag on the xbox one, so I am taking it upon myself to dish out some truth nuggets just for you.

For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik. All this sh1t your slinging at them shows exactly what is wrong with society these days. Unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions. You are one of the many causes for the rampant immature behaviour that is rife across the gaming internet forums. You have a greater responsibility than most as you have a public platform yet you choose to feed your ego rather than use some of that grey matter for good use and start a real debate, as you claim that you are.

They way you present yourself, you leave little room for debate because your so pig-headedly blinded by you self appointed importance. I try to look for the humour in your words but they are heavily laced with venom so the funnies don't taste so good, If you could see yourself from a detached perspective you would see that you are coming across as a whining fanboy that is jumping on the same old bandwagon and beating the same old drum that had been booming since last may. Get over it! We all know the score, we can make up our own minds as to which console to buy to suit out needs. Some of us actually are pleased with what Xbox has managed to accomplish in such a short time since the doombox was announced.

I am a strong supporter of Kinect and use it regularly without issue. But... then again, I am able to follow instructions and speak to the kinect the way It needs to be spoken to. I'm sorry that the Kinect is not aware of your self proclaimed importance so its no wonder it doesn't work for you when your shouting things like: "Dont you know who I am! I'm fuck1ng Jim Sterling, Now play my fuck1ng games..."

I get home in the evening, walk into my living room, say "Xbox on" and smile as I see my tv, surround system and xbox all switch on and greet me on screen. Then depending if I wanna play or watch tv I can then just say "Xbox, play watchdogs. or Xbox, go to 4od, play the it crowd." and blam, I'm in tech heaven. So I can only imagine how you have been trying to interact with your Kinect, actually, maybe I don't wanna know what you do behind closed doors, by the look of it, neither does Kinect :)

So, anyways. I'm sure none of these word will make any difference to you and I'm sure you will continue to smoke that sony pole. But, while your catching your breath between blowing your move controllers maybe you could do some real journalism and approach this new console generation without Sony's jizz all over your face.
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.

Secondly, Jim Sterling is criticizing the problems of the game industry because he wants the industry to be better as a whole. If you accept that the video game industry takes all money from your bank account it is fine, but at least let the people whine who don't want that, because this is a way the industry knows that they go too far and that they will make more policies that cater towards those with little money.

Another thing out of note is that the character that Jim Sterling acts like on the screen is in fact a neonazi. Of course he wants you to think for yourself (he even said at a moment that he is thankful that people disagree with him because it allowed him to have a better opinion), but the character he acts as is obviously preventing him from doing that.

Also, your joke of Jim Sterling not being able to speak correctly to the kinect is tasteless.

I also love how you are saying that Jim Sterling is a Sony fanboy, mainly because he said in a video that he thought that the Xbox 360 was a great console in 2006, all the while bashing the PS3. Everybody said that Jim Sterling was a Microsoft fanboy. Look at how the times have changed.
 

FoolKiller

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That moment:

You preach about not joining the newest gen of consoles swearing to hold out on a PS4 and Xbox One only to realize you have a Wii U, a 3DS XL, and a Vita sitting in your room.

I feel most sorry for the devs like Harmonix who based their creations on the belief that the Xbox One is going to have a Kinect. I wonder if they could get some money out of MS who committed fraud in terms of guaranteeing attach rates.
 

SeventhSigil

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Nytr8 said:
Wait! Wait! You forgot some truth nuggets!

Firstly! ^_^ You do realize that there are gamers who aren't even Playstation fans, who hate the Xbox One not because they love the Playstation 4, but juuuust because they dislike the Xbox One entirely on its own merits, right? o_O The Escapist forums, in fact, are an excellent example of this fascinating phenomenon, because there are quite a few PC gamers, and back during the whole hullaballoo, the ones who had zilch interest in the Console Peasants were of the following opinion; 'I would need a lobotomy to lower myself to the point of buying one of those overpriced, underpowered, featureless messes called a gaming console. That being said, I would need a substantially larger lobotomy to pick the Xbox One over the PS4.' It wasn't a wave of love for Sony, wasn't even a wave of like for Sony, as the best that could be gained from many was 'Well, meh, they didn't completely fuck it up this time, did they? Nah, guess they didn't.' But comparatively speaking, 'Not Completely Fucking It Up' was still light-years better than what Sony's main competitor was doing, so what you were seeing as 'Love For Sony' was, in fact, 'A Lack Of The Same Utter Contempt And Dislike That Was Being Dished To The Xbox One.'

The height of that hilarity was back before the DRM reversal, where there were Xbox players, ON the official Xbox Forums, sizable linked gamertags and all, raising holy hell about their violent dislike of the DRM policies... something completely forgotten by the DRM policy supporters, who only a month later were insisting on the same forum that all the whining that had led to those policies being reversed was from Sony Fanboys, and no, the console would have sold fine if it went ahead with the DRM policies, cause everyone complaining about it was a Sony Pony that was going to buy a PS4 no matter what and just came here to troll!

Second! Yes, they reversed the things that have been so criticized, and that should be recognized. They have been. It isn't that they reversed the policies that is being criticized, it's how vehemently, how desperately, Microsoft tried to bluff their way through the situation in the first place. Just look at the Kinect. Rather than, from the earliest point, saying 'Okay, we hear where you're coming from, and we will take everything under consideration; we are making no announcements, no promises, etc, but we hear you,' they instead decided to double down on the Kinect by saying; 'What? No! Pfft. It's integral! It's as important to the console as the controller! You don't think we'd ever sell an Xbox One without the controller, do you? It's a part of the wider experience, we can't just cut it away! It IS the Xbox One experience, so yeah, not gonna be removing it!'

It was a calculated bluff, the belief that if they could convince the gamers that the Kinect was going to stick around for the forseeable future, then those gamers should finally shut up and buy the thing regardless of whether they wanted the peripheral. As it turned out, though, they were only half right; because even though the anti-Kinect sentiment was indeed dying down to a low, irritated grumble, there was no corresponding rise in sales. No boom to catch them up to the PS4; in fact, if Sony's statistics on the composition of their new console's userbase were accurate, then Microsoft might have been actively in the process of losing its 7th Generation userbase to its 8th generation competitor.

So, realizing they the bluff had failed, they whirled around, changed their minds, and had the gall to use the same reasons ("Consumer CHOICE!") that the device's detractors had been unsuccessfully using since before the console even came out. When coupled with the undeniable fact that they were getting trounced in every market by the competition, their move wasn't seen as a 'Pro-Consumer Move.' It was seen as 'Oh Dear God, Sony Has A Missile Lock, Fire The Flares!' Just as Sony's large price cut to the PS3 wasn't seen as a 'Pro-Consumer Move,' it was seen as 'Oh Dear God, Microsoft Has A Missile Lock, Fire The Flares!"

Because Sony got the same flak for the PS3, not simply because of what they did to it during its initial launch, but because they also tried to bluff against the consumer. They ignored the building discontent, made super confident and chest-puffing statements about how awesome it was, how the price was totally necessary and worth it, etc, etc, etc. And then they watched as their more expensive, less multiplatform-capable, far more loathed product got steadily outsold in the U.S., a market they had previously dominated. (Any of that sound familiar?) I wouldn't have TOUCHED a PS3 when it launched, and I didn't get one at all until a bit under three years ago, after my 360 died; before that, I was Xbox 360 all the way, because PS3 royally shat the bed, and even after they had mopped it up, the smell lingered.

Microsoft has opened a window, yes, and tidied up their rampant diarrhea. But the smell is something that's going to linger for awhile longer, as much as they're running around frantically spraying Febreeze everywhere. And frankly? It should. This mentality of 'Well, they went back on their bullshit, LET'S SHOWER THEM WITH PRAISE!' will only encourage publishers and the like to test the 'line' every chance they get, knowing that if they overstep their bounds there'll be no harm done. If a company steps out of line- Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, whichever- they should get such a thorough ass-kicking, they'll still be aching two years down the road... and those aches might well remind them not to try it again, at least for awhile.

In conclusion, The concept that gamers can look at the Xbox One's history, its marketing, its very messaging, and deem its handling to be almost hilariously incompetent, not based of some emotional attachment to its competitor, but based upon a completely objective assessment, must be too traumatic for you to endure. o_O Because rather than admit 'Well, yeah, they royally messed up, to a cataclysmic degree, and just like the PS3 before it are likely going to get a whipping from many gamers for a loooong time before the newly tilted rudder actually, finally corrects their course,' you instead use 'NOPE, SONY FANBOYS' like you're a small child clutching his favorite, snot-and-drool-streaked safety blanket.

Seriously. Accept the fact that there are folks who simply don't like the Xbox One right now; not only Sony's gamers, but plenty of Nintendo's gamers, the PC's gamers, hell, there are former Xbox gamers who jumped ship. While there are undoubtedly elements that operate based on 'Sony Fanboyism,' because this is the Internet, trying to insist that any criticism, even outright hostility, must automatically be coming from that group is incredibly naive, and sounds like the desperate, whimpering excuses of a small, particularly dim little lad. ^_^

Would you like some dipping sauce with that?
 

theApoc

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Oct 17, 2008
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Demonchaser27 said:
Notice how we already have these very things (updates, content delivery, and diagnostics) on modern systems and computers and how adding required online-always doesn't add anything to the users experience that they didn't already have? Oh sure its useful for Microsoft but none of this is useful for me. I'm still forced to go through updates, online checks and other very obtrusive demands on their command, not when I decide I want to or need to.

It literally takes all of two seconds for my computer to realize its not on the internet and connect... does that mean that I should have to be online for everything I do on said computer? No. Your telling me in this modern Fiber Optic connected world, that you can't be bothered to wait 2 seconds for it to connect BEFORE it updates. And if that's not enough the NOT ALWAYS ONLINE Wii U can actually do system updates while its turned OFF. It still has that amazing convenience of not having to wait without restricting my access to all my software and discs in case the internet connection goes out. And honestly as much as I dislike Steam, you can still use cloud features with it while having access to your games offline, if need be. Yes you have to be online at the time of use, but I'm not (and apparently not many others either) giving up my freedom to use software and hardware when I want just so that I can have 2 secs free of connect time. And if your internet, their server or your ISP goes offline at anytime you get kicked out of the game/software your using and at best case scenario (with the 24 hour check) you don't get kicked, but if internet problems persist, as they usually do, then you can't play period. For what? So we can have 2 seconds to connect not wasted? Those 2 seconds that are going to be prevalent when you first connect after a disconnect anyways. EVERY TIME YOU TURN ON THE CONSOLE. You know unless you want the console to be using electricity for no reason when your not using it. And of course we're forgetting the activation connection that would have been required to access servers every time you boot a game after not playing said game for 24 hours. Is 2 seconds saved for connection time really worth all that?

And that being said I'm a computer enthusiast, there are always instances where you might want to stay on current hardware or drivers and not update. This is because of things like beta drivers and software that don't work properly and occasionally ruin other software programs. One example of this was when Sony actually caused Fat PS3s to burn up due to an update that had an issue with how it handled resources on the system. And it was an avoidable issue with the ability to stay offline, not update and still use your device.

In fact a modern example of this is Star Wars Jedi Knight Dark Forces 2. On current AMD Video Drivers the game doesn't work properly, but if I revert (something companies with online control won't let you do normally) back to old drivers against the will of the AMD auto updater I can magically play my game again. In your paradigm of always online, if a new update ruined my system or rendered games unplayable I would be stuck until Microsoft has decided its worth their time to fix it. Its the same problem that we've seen time and time and time again with other always-online software, such as Assassin's Creed 2, SimCity and Diablo 3. Your ignoring the fact that they do not do this as a service to the customer, but to control the user's experience and leave the freedom of the individual to use the hardware that THEY PURCHASED on the whim of the manufacturer (Microsoft in this case).
You make some good points, however my question still remains, how is any of this MS's fault? How can they be considered anti-consumer when these things are the reality of an age where we are moving more and more towards digital distribution? How exactly did they lie to us? I play Dark Souls 2, every time I load that game it connects to their servers to check for updates and patches. I requires a constant connection to experience all of the aspects of the game. Same thing with Borderlands, Halo, Titanfall, etc. Features that consumers have proven time and time again to want as part of their gaming experience. I get it, people want to retain control, but those days are quickly passing us by. I use Netflix, I enjoy it for the convenience, in order to do so, I need to be online for streaming, as such, my "library" of content is controlled COMPLETELY by their company. Server goes down, no netflix. Too much traffic, no netflix. Bad business deal? My favorite show is now no longer available. I sacrifice control for convenience.

Point being, these companies are in business. They provide a service and we choose to pay for it, or we don't. How they provide the service is up to them, and it is up to me to decide if that is acceptable. And in the case of MS, not liking how they did something, or what they had planned to do, is not the same as being forced to endure some draconian policy.

No however, the problem with this analogy (even if we ignore the ridiculous difference in cost to the user) is that with TVs I can just go buy a TV that doesn't have 4 HDMI slots and a USB slot. There are many brands of televisions. There is true choice there. Microsoft is the only one developing and allowed to sell Xbox One. Microsoft (at time of release) didn't give anyone the choice of not paying the ridiculous extra fee of having Kinect.
Sure they did, which is why I am still using my XBOX 360. If a person feels that the latest and greatest content is worth being a beta tester for hardware and missing out on future refinements and updates, that is on them, not the company making the product. Apple is a BS company that has made a fortune on incremental updates, but the primary fault of that practice falls on the consumer not the company.


Your analogy would be more fitting to, say, computers. I can buy tons of different models of computer all with different power variants and slot types and number of slots/hard drives. If I didn't need 2 DVI slots on my video card I would find a cheaper model with no such slots. Aside from this the Kinect didn't give the user anything of value. Maybe I don't need 4 HDMI slots, but I do NEED HDMI slots and might need more in the future depending on what I buy, since you need HDMI for output of most devices these days. I don't need Kinect and already know I don't want any of the software built for it so why should I have to buy it to get the console?
YOU don't need a kinect, so YOU don't need to upgrade to a system that was meant to use it. Yes, it is optional, but that was not what they had in mind, and a lot of people, who decided to actually embrace the technology, like it just fine as part of the device. I have gen 1 Kinect, it works as well as can be expected, but I still enjoyed the experience and I understand what they were going for. Regardless, making Kinect part of the initial package was not "anti-consumer", they are trying to do something different, bring the technology to the average home, and IMO they should continue to do so. No one forced people to upgrade, my XBLA account still has 100% functionality a year after the launch of "next gen". Had they shut down all of the old systems, then maybe Jim would have a point, as it stands, he doesn't.


On note of Blue Ranger, He was being incredibly arrogant towards you and I'll go ahead and apologize to you for him, but you doing the same to him doesn't really make your claims any more correct or incorrect.
I responded in kind, if nothing else it made me smile.
 

theApoc

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COMaestro said:
Your always online points are fine when they are an option, not mandatory. My PS4 is always online because I choose to leave it that way, not because it HAS to be. The concept of a gaming console that will lock you out of ALL your games if it does not call home once a day is just ludicrous, and THAT is what everyone had a problem with. Especially those who have poor or spotty internet access. Even though they said it was a small file that could easily be done using a phone as a hotspot for just a minute, how is that convenient or even wanted by the consumer? It's not! It was essentially a draconian form of DRM that only provided a benefit to MS and none to the consumer.
If you have spotty internet connection then maybe next gen is not for you. And I am sorry but these claims about the whole thing being some kind of EA level DRM control is ridiculous. In order to do just about anything that involves multi-media, and a lot of features available to games, I need to be connected to the internet. I could play an un patched, non updated version of halo, doing only the Single player, but that would kind of defeat the point of paying 60 bucks for a game with a huge multiplayer community and service. The claim that MS did this to screw consumers is just silly. Sorry, but it is.

As for alternative control peripherals, aka the Kinect, many people already stated they did NOT want one after seeing how the original worked. Many don't like the idea of a camera in their house that is "always watching", even if it can be turned off. MS was insistent that the device was an integral part of the console so it could not be disconnected. This was enough to turn people away from the system, despite the later backpedaling by MS allowing the Kinect to be removed. Many feel that motion controls of any sort are just a gimmick and want nothing to do with them. That's well within their rights and if they invested in an Xbox One then they are welcome to just not use the Kinect features. However, the device added $100 to the asking price, which made the console as a whole much less appealing, so many who would have otherwise purchased an Xbox One without a Kinect chose to forego the console entirely.
And many people, like myself, think the peripheral is a great addition, and as it improves, and the voice recognition and motion control gets better, it will make for a very useful part of the device. For gaming? No. I don't think it will every be good for gaming, but to me that should not be the focus of Kinect anyway.

If MS had truly had faith in their vision of a next-gen console, they should have stuck to their guns and released the Xbox One the way they originally intended. If it was as great as they were claiming, then people would have realized it in time and invested in this "revolutionary" console. But they didn't. Why? Because they saw poor pre-order numbers and realized that their anti-consumer policies and vision were not going to fly with the majority of consumers.

I will agree that graphics do not make a console "next-gen" however I disagree with your idea that next-gen should not be about games. Of COURSE it should be about games when it comes to a GAMING console! For these consoles, NOTHING should be more important than advances in the games. Not just graphics, as you said that should come naturally, but in the AI, in the gameplay, in the expanse of levels and maps. Just "doing something different" does not automatically make something better or more advanced. The Wii did something different with motion controls, setting off the whole shebang of motion controls that MS and Sony both tried to copy, but that didn't make the Wii a better console over the 360 or PS3 to many people. Especially considering all the shovelware that later released on the platform, leaving very few quality games for the system.

MS is not "dishonest" for trying to do something different. They are dishonest for claiming that the Xbox HAD to work a certain way, then later changing their tune when sales reports were poor in order to try to move more consoles, then changing it yet again from the way it HAD to work when sales still weren't good enough. THAT is why MS is dishonest.
It was never just a gaming console, they never said it was, they never wanted it to be. It, like the 360 before it, is best described as a multi-media hub. It has replaced every other device in my living room for nearly 2 years now, and yes I do actually play games as well. Changing business strategy is a part of the industry. Did they screw up in presenting the device? Ayup. Was that some plot to screw the consumer, nope.
 

theApoc

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Blue Ranger said:
Good job in proving to all of us you have no god damned clue what you are talking about. Nothing you said was factual. Just a load of garbage.

Everything you said is so god damned stupid and out of touch with reality. Nothing you said has convinced any of us that Xbox One NEEDS to be always online. In fact, these features you keep mentioning are already here, on systems that don't require a constant internet connection. So where is this convenience you keep talking about?

Kinect is the only way to control and use your system? Really? Did you forget about the actual xbox controller? Of course you did, because you aren't using your brain. Your HDMI example just proves you need to shut the hell up and actually educate yourself. That isn't even a proper analogy, considering HDMI port are required to access high definition. Not to mention, Samsung isn't the only company making TVs. Nice try, buddy.
I did not say it was the only way, what I did was ask a rhetorical question, something you kind of missed. My point was exactly what you said, there is nothing forcing you to use the device, or buy a system that charges for the device. What MS said was that they system was designed to work best with kinect, not that it would only work with kinect.

And MS isn't the only company making game consoles. And they aren't even only making ONE console. Again, the point of the analogy was that you pay for the features YOU want. If you don't want them, don't buy the device. The implication that MS is forcing people to buy and XBOX ONE with a kinect is silly. There was no reason at launch to upgrade unless you simply wanted to be on the "cutting edge". Almost every game released had a 360 version. XBLA works the same as it did before, and everyone knew they would release more system options. It is silly to blame them for wanting to be a beta tester for the "next gen". If they had stopped all support of the 360, you would have a point. As such, you don't.
 

yogyog

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The Kinekt is quite clearly a low-cost motion-capture device that for some reason is being sold as a gaming peripheral rather than the tool for animators and hackers that we all know it really is.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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I don't really understand this episode. Microsoft are liars. Okay. The Xbox One backpedaled. Okay... Personally I'm not even that cynical, they tried one route and it didn't work for them so they changed its course back towards something that works. And then like any sane company they covered it under heaps of PR and misinformation. To think that any other company wouldn't do the same thing is just plain ignorant. So why is this such a big deal?

Microsoft saw what the consumer base wanted, and the consumer base didn't buy the Xbox One until it got what it wanted. Why does it matter that they did what every other major corporation that's a huge part of the market does? What matters is that the message is clear; we won't buy your console until we like what we see.

I'm really baffled honestly. If you're still driven by the honesty of Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony when choosing your console you're a moron and you should learn to be pragmatic instead. Because they all do the same thing and you'll just be screaming "SONY ARE LIARS DON'T BUY THE PS5" when the next company fucks up.

This just seems like pointless, try-hard idealism to me.
 

Knarral

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hydrolythe said:
Knarral said:
The Great JT said:
cyvaris said:
The Great JT said:
Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
Considering Mass Effect:The Next One will also release on PC (and Sunset Overdrive is rumored to as well) there is really no reason to buy an Xbone. Even if SO doesn't come to PC, it's not worth buying the Xbone.
My computer isn't very good...I am shamed.
Why spend $400 on an Xbone when you can spend that $400 on PC hardware so you have a better PC? I mean, a decent "above modern console grade" PC is about $700 give or take, and from then on it's just upgrading what you already have one piece at a time whenever you feel like you have the cash to spend on it. And Steam sales means, if you wait to buy games until they're on sale, you spend WAAAAAAAAAAY less on games.
Because on a console developers exactly know how far they can go in terms of graphical capabilities. They can see the limitations of a console and use them as their own. For the PC there are way too many graphic cards on the market and developers will just have a hard time figuring out how developed the PC will be for the average consumer base.

The above is the reason why there are so many games on consoles that never see their transition to PC. I could understand that games that do not rely on graphics did only have the PC to reside in, but with Sony and Microsoft's new policies to get indie developers quicker working for them on colsoles that advantage minimizes over time.

And yes, there is steam, but it just keeps getting less and less relevant over time, due to the fact that lots of games on steam are never played.

Secondly, ever tried to purchase games on last-gen consoles? You can get a last-gen console for like 150$ and most of the games only cost around 15$ (and if you are already happy with primitive graphics, check out the games for even older consoles, most consoles cost around 40$ and their games around 5$). Steam has nothing on this.
1. No they don't. See: Every single 30 fps game on Xbone and PS4 ever. They have no idea how shiny they can make it without tanking the hardware. I'm not even talking about how it's only 30 fps, I'm talking about how frequently it dips BELOW that. Also, developers up to now haven't had too difficult a time optimizing for the PC, so I really don't see your point.

2. There aren't many games that are on consoles that aren't on PC. The ones that aren't are not on PC for other reasons. Like the first party devs being assholes.

3. We're not talking about last gen machines, we're talking about current gen machines. I don't give a fuck about an xbox 360, it's a 10 year old piece of junk. If we want to go back to before last gen, the PC has emulators. For free. Yeah, I don't care that the gamecube is $25 at your local gamestop and Super Mario Sunshine is $2.25 on sale, I can just download dolphin emulator and play it on my PC for free (albeit the legality of doing so is slightly questionable, though literally nobody in the entire world gives a fuck), using a dualshock 4 instead of a gamecube controller, AND it'll run at 1080p if I decide I want it to.

Also, what do you mean most games on steam are never played? You mean all of that shit that somehow manages to find its way on steam? No, nobody is playing that. All that means is its harder for indie devs, and while I'd love some quality control on steam, that's an entirely different subject for debate. That doesn't make steam any less relevant, considering the sheer amount of people who use it. There are still steam sales where most games are heavily discounted. Also, GoG and Humble are things.
 

Ukomba

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Why does a free picture from a vandal mean you win anything? People unwillingly get 'free pictures' from them all the time.
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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ex275w said:
babinro said:
Shouldn't this site be flooded with WiiU, handheld console, PC games coverage while Xbox One and PS4 get maybe 1/10th the attention of those? Wouldn't this be sending a more positive message about the gaming industry through your actions?

I'm not saying for Yahtzee or Jim Sterling to stop making videos about this. By all means, point out the injustices to consumers so that we don't forget about this issue. Even the escapists podcasters have almost nothing positive to say about the current gen consoles.

It would be nice if the site could follow it's content creators own advice. Spend more time focusing on promoting positive gaming awareness through companies who make 'less evil' decisions.

On topic: Good summary piece all around.
I didn't need more convincing to never support Xbox One but there you have it.
The thing is, the Xbox One and PS4 audience is the one most willing to join gaming sites, read the news, etc. The Wii U and 3DS is more of a niche and Nintendo games do tend to attract younger audiences who won't join gaming sites and read the news. As for PC gaming... I guess they already have their news site or niche community.
Well I'm a PC gamer exclusively, and I come here daily.

Yeah, I gotta go with Babinro on this one. I'd never ask Jim to stop pointing out horseshit like this, but I'd like to maybe see it balanced with more positive articles about current or recently released games. (I don't count previews or "hype pieces" as "positive". I won't preorder games - Jim would probably approve of this - and I don't care about stuff that hasn't come out yet. Of course, that's just one person's opinion, but it's pretty much where my brain is at.)
 

Ylla

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"That thing you can play Titanfall on"
You mean a PC? XD
I honestly wonder how can the Xbone be doing well.... At least in my country it was bashed by EVERYONE, even the most ignorant mainstream bloggers made quick remarks about how shitty it was, and i dont know any person who has bought an Xbone.
How can it be selling? even the most "diehard" MS fans that i know hated the Xbone (some of them even switched to PC gaming for the love of not giving Sony any of their money :D). Geez, I WAS one of those MS fans, and when i saw the Xbone announcement (or perhaps before when Halo 4 was released) i knew i had to change.
Please explain me who the hell buys an Xbone :p
 

YouTubeYaamen

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I'm new here and maybe this has been brought up months ago in a previous video/forum posting so, if it has, I apologize...but what annoyed me about Microsoft's handling of the Xbox One was how you could NOT buy the console on it's own last winter. (If this hasn't be covered before, I'll explain.)

It's November. Xbox One supplies are low. Demand is somewhat high. I walk into a Best Buy and lo and behold, they have a new shipment of Xbox Ones!

Terrific! I stand in line to pick one up. However, when a sales rep finally gets to me, he says they can't sell the console on it's own. I HAVE to choose a bundle package. With the console, I have to buy two games, an extra controller, a year of Xbox Live Gold and their extended warranty plan.

Well, I decide that's a sack of monkey balls so I leave and see if I can order one straight from Microsoft's site. And, as it turns out, I could.

HOWEVER, same deal applies! You CANNOT buy the console on it's own. They force you to buy two games, a year of Xbox Live Gold and a three year extended warranty. On the plus side, an extra controller was optional. Hurray for small miracles.

So I check around town and if anywhere else had Ones, it was only in a forced bundle package. So I have to assume Microsoft was forcing them to do it since they were forcing it on the people on their site.

PS4's were even scarcer during this time but they didn't impose any additional purchases when they became available. I'm sure this helped pad Microsoft's numbers but it sure didn't do anything for their already lackluster image.
 

CaitSeith

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Nytr8 said:
For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik.
hydrolythe said:
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).

They were wrong. Most non-gamers didn't show any interest in the console, and the "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions" did what any "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining" consumer would do: they looked for an option with their rival company. I just imagine how pale their faces must have gone when Sony made their "How to share a PS4 game" sketch.
 

CaitSeith

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Sseth said:
I don't really understand this episode. Microsoft are liars. Okay. The Xbox One backpedaled. Okay... Personally I'm not even that cynical, they tried one route and it didn't work for them so they changed its course back towards something that works. And then like any sane company they covered it under heaps of PR and misinformation. To think that any other company wouldn't do the same thing is just plain ignorant. So why is this such a big deal?
Pretty much because people has become insensible to the fact that companies lie to their consumers and partners, and don't even apology when they are discovered. Now present us 5 examples of companies that behaved like Microsoft and the consequences they faced.
 

CaitSeith

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theApoc said:
It was never just a gaming console, they never said it was, they never wanted it to be. It, like the 360 before it, is best described as a multi-media hub. It has replaced every other device in my living room for nearly 2 years now, and yes I do actually play games as well. Changing business strategy is a part of the industry. Did they screw up in presenting the device? Ayup. Was that some plot to screw the consumer, nope.
Pretty much of the things they proposed (and backpedaled) were counter-intuitive for the gaming consumers, and the target audience for "non-gaming gaming" consoles is still pretty small. It's like trying to sell ice cream in December on the streets of New York. Not the right place, not the right time, defenitely not the right product.
 

Something Amyss

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theApoc said:
[

They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them.
That's completely out of sync with the results, sorry. They didn't cater to the consumers.

They ignored the fickle gaming community and got bashed for it.
Apparently, that's the market they need, since the Xbone was getting hammered otherwise. Which still makes what they did stupid.


It actually is a software thing, which is getting better all of the time. The kinect is an amazing device when considering how cheap it is to make. LOTS of researchers are using the device for some pretty crazy things, none of which have anything to do with gaming. MS should double down on it as a peripheral and ignore it in terms of gaming.
You do understand part of why they do those amazing things is that it's not tied to an Xbone, right? And that they were doing it with the weaker Kinect that wasn't forcibly included in the 360 setup? And that the applications aren't in-line with its purpose as-is? I'm not sure how that helps the argument, since they haven't integrated it in the way you were claiming. Other people actually found reasons to use it, and that's great. A shame Microsoft couldn't do the same.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
And I said largely, so you're not even really arguing here. Gaming is still a huge reason people buy it. Or don't buy it, as the case may be. Now, if you want to pretend otherwise, that would at least be stating something contrary. But to point out that it's an "entertainment hub" is meaningless.

Either that, or the rest of the market just doesn't freaking want it. Take it however you want.

Gamers don't want it, and only gamers thinks PS4 is "winning" any more than Wii won last time. Units sold are great, but usage, something that has been growing dramatically for MS and XBLA, well that is something else altogether. "Eaten alive" that's funny...
Yeah, how absurd to think that being outstripped in sales, and forced to scale back nearly everything you claimed was integral to your vision counts as something bad. Again, you're not speaking in terms congruous with reality. I'm also not sure what's funny, unless you're agreeing with me that it's hilarious watching Microsoft completely backtrack on, well...everything. But I'm pretty sure you're not, so...what's so funny about Microsoft being forced to tuck tail because consumers don't give a crap?

These are not the actions of a company succeeding with the market they were courting.

And you know who realized this? MS.
You're contradicting yourself again.

Which is why XBOX ONE was not designed to be a super gaming rig with 3k worth of parts inside.
Since nobody's talking about anything that extreme a case, that sounds an awful lot like a strawman argument.

If people want 8k graphics, guess what, they will do that on a PC.
Come now, Microsoft is struggling to get 1080. And they were the ones promoting shiny new graphics. Which should hurt your argument more than help it.

Fruit Ninja need next gen? Fez? Peggle? Because those are the things that a lot of average people are playing, just like they are using netflx, hulu, youtube, redbox, etc.
Then an Xbone should sell well and not be dwarfed by the competition to the point that they're forced to backtrack on almost everything they claimed was integral.

Since that didn't happen....

But you're also stuck with the unfortunate fact that this isn't a new idea or unique to Microsoft, as both Microsoft and Sony made consoles designed as media hubs last gen

Um, no. The built a device that was right in line with what people were ready to have in their living room.
Evidently not.

Yup it plays games, and it does it just as well as PS4, anyone who tell you differently is to nerdy to matter.
Hmm...Insulting people who disagree with you is probably a poor way to get things done.

But even still, if the nerds didn't matter, then Microsoft wouldn't have reversed course as it has.
 

theApoc

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Zachary Amaranth said:
theApoc said:
[

They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them.
That's completely out of sync with the results, sorry. They didn't cater to the consumers.
The results according to who? Game reviewers? "Industry" analysts? From a purely business standpoint, neither console is lighting the world on fire, and that would be because "next-gen" was not as impressive as it was made out to be, and developers were not ready to stop what they were doing for last gen. The whole console war thing is nonsense. They will ultimately sell roughly the same amount, just like the last time. All of this "MS is screwed" hype is nonsense.

They ignored the fickle gaming community and got bashed for it.
Apparently, that's the market they need, since the Xbone was getting hammered otherwise. Which still makes what they did stupid.
Not really. The only thing they need, the same thing the PS4 needs BTW, is a better catalog of games, then the gaming community will go back to their basements and stare blankly into their screens as usual.


It actually is a software thing, which is getting better all of the time. The kinect is an amazing device when considering how cheap it is to make. LOTS of researchers are using the device for some pretty crazy things, none of which have anything to do with gaming. MS should double down on it as a peripheral and ignore it in terms of gaming.
You do understand part of why they do those amazing things is that it's not tied to an Xbone, right? And that they were doing it with the weaker Kinect that wasn't forcibly included in the 360 setup? And that the applications aren't in-line with its purpose as-is? I'm not sure how that helps the argument, since they haven't integrated it in the way you were claiming. Other people actually found reasons to use it, and that's great. A shame Microsoft couldn't do the same.
No one forced anyone to do anything. In 6 months you will be able to get a Kinect and system for the price of the kinectless system now. People who wanted to be first in line, payed for it. And lets be honest here, the kinect is not "useless", it actually is quite awesome for multi-media, so acting like it is a lead weight in the box makes no sense. Regardless, it is the IDEA behind the kinect that is important, not the device itself. And that idea, well, it is here to stay.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
And I said largely, so you're not even really arguing here. Gaming is still a huge reason people buy it. Or don't buy it, as the case may be. Now, if you want to pretend otherwise, that would at least be stating something contrary. But to point out that it's an "entertainment hub" is meaningless.

Either that, or the rest of the market just doesn't freaking want it. Take it however you want.
The claim is that they lied about the intentions. They didn't. The lack of games has hurt BOTH consoles. Why? Because most people who are going to upgrade, are going to do so for games. The media stuff, works just fine on last gen. The point? It is far too early to tell what the market is for the new devices. Gaming is a huge reason people UPGRADE, not why they buy a console. PS3 got a lot of sales from being a blu-ray player. XBOX 360 got a lot of sales for XBLA and the inter connectivity to inline services. I don't need to UPGRADE because the games I play were last gen only. The fact that BOTH companies didn't have backwards comparability has also hurt them. See, you can make the flimsy "MS sucks and will fail" argument all you like. The reality, is much more straightforward and has nothing to do with the nonsense spouted by Jim.

Gamers don't want it, and only gamers thinks PS4 is "winning" any more than Wii won last time. Units sold are great, but usage, something that has been growing dramatically for MS and XBLA, well that is something else altogether. "Eaten alive" that's funny...
Yeah, how absurd to think that being outstripped in sales, and forced to scale back nearly everything you claimed was integral to your vision counts as something bad. Again, you're not speaking in terms congruous with reality. I'm also not sure what's funny, unless you're agreeing with me that it's hilarious watching Microsoft completely backtrack on, well...everything. But I'm pretty sure you're not, so...what's so funny about Microsoft being forced to tuck tail because consumers don't give a crap?

These are not the actions of a company succeeding with the market they were courting.
See above. Nothing you just said holds any water.


Which is why XBOX ONE was not designed to be a super gaming rig with 3k worth of parts inside.
Since nobody's talking about anything that extreme a case, that sounds an awful lot like a strawman argument.
Way to miss the point. Current gen consoles are never going to be able to compete with PC's from a hardware standpoint. Which is why neither one of them tried to do that. They used the most cost effective materials to incrementally upgrade the gaming aspect. Both ultimately want to go in the direction of a service as opposed to a box. They want to be able to deliver the latest content and not be dependent on hardware. You know what hasn't lagged behind? XBLA and PSN. Both have expanded and continue to do so, and do you know why? Because they are not hardware dependent. Neither company is worried about games, they want subscribers. And MS is doing just fine in that department. Games get the boxes into homes, media content makes the boxes part of the household. Short sighted gamers don't see this, doesn't change the fact that it is real.


Fruit Ninja need next gen? Fez? Peggle? Because those are the things that a lot of average people are playing, just like they are using netflx, hulu, youtube, redbox, etc.
Then an Xbone should sell well and not be dwarfed by the competition to the point that they're forced to backtrack on almost everything they claimed was integral.

Since that didn't happen....
They changed two things about the device. No constant connection and kinect is optional. The overall impact of both things is minimal.

But you're also stuck with the unfortunate fact that this isn't a new idea or unique to Microsoft, as both Microsoft and Sony made consoles designed as media hubs last gen
Wrong. Sony tacked that crap on after the fact and is not even close to offering the same level of service as XBLA. MS XBLA usage DOUBLED in the two years prior to XBOX ONE. They know exactly what they are doing and who their audience is... As support for 360 fades, XBOX ONE will grow accordingly.


Yup it plays games, and it does it just as well as PS4, anyone who tell you differently is to nerdy to matter.
Hmm...Insulting people who disagree with you is probably a poor way to get things done.

But even still, if the nerds didn't matter, then Microsoft wouldn't have reversed course as it has.
I didn't insult anyone. No one who matters gives a crap about any of this stuff. The minute differences in performance between to already outdated machines. Are you kidding me?
 

Jimothy Sterling

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theApoc said:
I did not say it was the only way, what I did was ask a rhetorical question, something you kind of missed. My point was exactly what you said, there is nothing forcing you to use the device, or buy a system that charges for the device. What MS said was that they system was designed to work best with kinect, not that it would only work with kinect.

And MS isn't the only company making game consoles. And they aren't even only making ONE console. Again, the point of the analogy was that you pay for the features YOU want. If you don't want them, don't buy the device. The implication that MS is forcing people to buy and XBOX ONE with a kinect is silly. There was no reason at launch to upgrade unless you simply wanted to be on the "cutting edge". Almost every game released had a 360 version. XBLA works the same as it did before, and everyone knew they would release more system options. It is silly to blame them for wanting to be a beta tester for the "next gen". If they had stopped all support of the 360, you would have a point. As such, you don't.
And again you miss the whole point. Microsoft may not be the only company making consoles, but they are the only company making the Xbox. Microsoft also pretty much said that they couldn't do an Xbox without Kinect. Yet they still did. Again you contradict yourself.

Yes, they were only making ONE console. That is, until they finally decided to give us a cheaper choice. No, people didn't actually know they would release options like this. Their only choice was the Xbox One WITH a Kinect. So yes, they were kind of forcing it on people who wanted an Xbox but not the Kinect. There was also no guarantee that Microsoft would eventually release a system without the Kinect, even though you love to assume that is the case.

Sure, people could have bought the Xbox One with Kinect and simply not used the Kinect, but then that would be a waste of money. That's why people wanted one without Kinect and Microsoft finally caved only because they were getting owned by Sony in sales.
 

hydrolythe

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Knarral said:
hydrolythe said:
Knarral said:
The Great JT said:
cyvaris said:
The Great JT said:
Still not buying a One 'til I see something worth buying, and right now that's limited to Sunset Overdrive and whatever the next Mass Effect game is going to be.
Considering Mass Effect:The Next One will also release on PC (and Sunset Overdrive is rumored to as well) there is really no reason to buy an Xbone. Even if SO doesn't come to PC, it's not worth buying the Xbone.
My computer isn't very good...I am shamed.
Why spend $400 on an Xbone when you can spend that $400 on PC hardware so you have a better PC? I mean, a decent "above modern console grade" PC is about $700 give or take, and from then on it's just upgrading what you already have one piece at a time whenever you feel like you have the cash to spend on it. And Steam sales means, if you wait to buy games until they're on sale, you spend WAAAAAAAAAAY less on games.
Because on a console developers exactly know how far they can go in terms of graphical capabilities. They can see the limitations of a console and use them as their own. For the PC there are way too many graphic cards on the market and developers will just have a hard time figuring out how developed the PC will be for the average consumer base.

The above is the reason why there are so many games on consoles that never see their transition to PC. I could understand that games that do not rely on graphics did only have the PC to reside in, but with Sony and Microsoft's new policies to get indie developers quicker working for them on colsoles that advantage minimizes over time.

And yes, there is steam, but it just keeps getting less and less relevant over time, due to the fact that lots of games on steam are never played.

Secondly, ever tried to purchase games on last-gen consoles? You can get a last-gen console for like 150$ and most of the games only cost around 15$ (and if you are already happy with primitive graphics, check out the games for even older consoles, most consoles cost around 40$ and their games around 5$). Steam has nothing on this.
1. No they don't. See: Every single 30 fps game on Xbone and PS4 ever. They have no idea how shiny they can make it without tanking the hardware. I'm not even talking about how it's only 30 fps, I'm talking about how frequently it dips BELOW that. Also, developers up to now haven't had too difficult a time optimizing for the PC, so I really don't see your point.

2. There aren't many games that are on consoles that aren't on PC. The ones that aren't are not on PC for other reasons. Like the first party devs being assholes.

3. We're not talking about last gen machines, we're talking about current gen machines. I don't give a fuck about an xbox 360, it's a 10 year old piece of junk. If we want to go back to before last gen, the PC has emulators. For free. Yeah, I don't care that the gamecube is $25 at your local gamestop and Super Mario Sunshine is $2.25 on sale, I can just download dolphin emulator and play it on my PC for free (albeit the legality of doing so is slightly questionable, though literally nobody in the entire world gives a fuck), using a dualshock 4 instead of a gamecube controller, AND it'll run at 1080p if I decide I want it to.

Also, what do you mean most games on steam are never played? You mean all of that shit that somehow manages to find its way on steam? No, nobody is playing that. All that means is its harder for indie devs, and while I'd love some quality control on steam, that's an entirely different subject for debate. That doesn't make steam any less relevant, considering the sheer amount of people who use it. There are still steam sales where most games are heavily discounted. Also, GoG and Humble are things.
1: As a game developer it takes time and research to understand at what graphical capabilities the PC of the average will be. That takes lots of time and effort. On a console, all you need to do is talk with the man behind it what the graphical capabilities of the console are and what game engines are the most suited for the console. Now it suddenly becomes a cheap and easy task, doesn't it?

2: Yeah, Japanese third-party devs are trolls, but I think that it is more due to the fact that PC gaming is a niche in Japan (90% of all Japanese PC games are Visual Novels, notable for cheap and easy production). No wonder that many Japanese games are console and handheld exclusive.
 

theApoc

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Blue Ranger said:
And again you miss the whole point. Microsoft may not be the only company making consoles, but they are the only company making the Xbox. Microsoft also pretty much said that they couldn't do an Xbox without Kinect. Yet they still did. Again you contradict yourself.

Yes, they were only making ONE console. That is, until they finally decided to give us a cheaper choice. No, people didn't actually know they would release options like this. Their only choice was the Xbox One WITH a Kinect. So yes, they were kind of forcing it on people who wanted an Xbox but not the Kinect. There was also no guarantee that Microsoft would eventually release a system without the Kinect, even though you love to assume that is the case.

Sure, people could have bought the Xbox One with Kinect and simply not used the Kinect, but then that would be a waste of money. That's why people wanted one without Kinect and Microsoft finally caved only because they were getting owned by Sony in sales.
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional. It was designed to use voice commands, facial recognition, etc. An HDTV is designed to display hi resolution content, that doesn't mean it won't play standard def content, just that the standard def stuff won't look as good when blown up to a larger size. You can use XBOX ONE without kinect, but their intended vision of alternate control mechanisms, won't work. Regardless of how good or bad the kinect may be, their intent was innovation, not some anti-consumer crap. THAT is the point.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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theApoc said:
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional. It was designed to use voice commands, facial recognition, etc. An HDTV is designed to display hi resolution content, that doesn't mean it won't play standard def content, just that the standard def stuff won't look as good when blown up to a larger size. You can use XBOX ONE without kinect, but their intended vision of alternate control mechanisms, won't work. Regardless of how good or bad the kinect may be, their intent was innovation, not some anti-consumer crap. THAT is the point.
Except for the fact that these features you get with Kinect aren't really all that essential and can be worked around with a controller. So people without the Kinect aren't exactly missing out, basically making the Xbox One 100% functional without it.
 

CaitSeith

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I think Harmonix would had embraced the Kinect even if it had been announced as an optional accessory from day one. They have made the best Kinect games (because they actually work) in the past generation. And even before that, they made great games that required slightly more interaction than just pressing buttons and triggers in a controller: Rock Band.
 

Dragonbums

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Blue Ranger said:
theApoc said:
Blue Ranger said:
Oh, look, it's one of these guys who doesn't have one god damned clue about anything. There is nothing about these features that you mentioned that required an always online internet, contrary to what you want to believe.

Also, these "alternate control peripherals" are still there. People can still get a Kinect if they want. However, having an alternative control method doesn't mean it should be a requirement and the only control method. Think about that before speaking.
You are pretty sure of yourself for being completely wrong. I applaud you for that.

Always online is required if you want it to happen automatically and to be as unobtrusive as possible. Every internet connected device I have is "always on-line" you know why? Because it is more convenient that way. Claiming that there was some MS conspiracy to screw the customer by wanting constant connectivity is silly. It makes it easy for them to keep the machine up to date, to deliver content when the device is not in use, and to diagnose issues. Just like any other internet connected PC.

Does the kinect need to be used to operate the XBOX one? I mean is it the only way to control the thing, or to play games? Complaining about them charging for an included peripheral is plain silly. Hey, when I bought my TV, I didn't need 4 HDMI ports or a USB port for playing music and pictures, do you think Smasung was trying to screw me by adding those in and charging more than some other brands?

You truly are clueless. Must be boring in summer school.
Good job in proving to all of us you have no god damned clue what you are talking about. Nothing you said was factual. Just a load of garbage.

Everything you said is so god damned stupid and out of touch with reality. Nothing you said has convinced any of us that Xbox One NEEDS to be always online. In fact, these features you keep mentioning are already here, on systems that don't require a constant internet connection. So where is this convenience you keep talking about?

Kinect is the only way to control and use your system? Really? Did you forget about the actual xbox controller? Of course you did, because you aren't using your brain. Your HDMI example just proves you need to shut the hell up and actually educate yourself. That isn't even a proper analogy, considering HDMI port are required to access high definition. Not to mention, Samsung isn't the only company making TVs. Nice try, buddy.
Look man you really need to cool your jets. Your really walking a thin line here with the insults and bad attitude. Take a deep breath and step back from this thread. It's foolish to get warning and suspended over an Xbone thread.
 

Spaceman Spiff

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Good video, Jim. That is one of the reasons why, even after they flip-flopped on their controversial "features", I still won't buy an XBone180. The other reason being that I don't care for their intended "future of gaming": the camera, the all-in-one media box, sports, skype, television, lack of game sharing, and having to check in online for permission to play games I would have already owned.
 

CaitSeith

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theApoc said:
They did not "ignore" their consumers. They catered to them.
They catered to them because they were going to lose them. Sorry, but in the gaming industry, risk is inversly proportional to inovation. And it doesn't matter how much you rationalize it, Xbox is a game console brand name and is bought mainly by gamers for playing games (for multimedia entertainment, non-gamers usually buy home theaters). Include a new feature on it? Maybe it could work. Include something unwanted at expense of the main purpose and for more money? Really risky (specially if the rival does it better or cheaper)
 

SeventhSigil

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theApoc said:
Okay, looking at your posts throughout the thread, there are a couple of consistent points you bring forth that seem to be missing something.

1) You've said a few times that Microsoft was not, and at no point was ever, forcing consumers to purchase the Xbox One as it was originally advanced. Whether it was with the old digital policies, or with the Kinect as an attached peripheral; you pointed out that people had the option, always had the option, simply not to buy it, or to instead buy the competitor's product. You outright said that disliking a direction the company has taken is not the same as 'being forced to endure some draconian policy.'

I actually agree with you. Completely, a hundred percent; while it could be argued that using something like Halo as a lure for less popular features isn't going to be a beloved move, especially around the hardcore Halo fans who dislike Kinect, at no point was Microsoft forcing anyone to buy the Xbox One. Besides which, using exclusive franchises as a selling point is par for the course anyway, so it all but cancels itself out. All consumers, be they gamers or otherwise, had the option to vote with their wallets and simply not hand over their money. So on that note, you and I are most certainly on the same page; it was always the decision of the customer whether to buy it or not.

However. What you should know- and perhaps I've simply misinterpreted what you've been saying- is that even though Microsoft isn't forcing the consumers to purchase their device 'as is,' it is still their primary goal to get the machine into as many houses as possible, for obvious reasons. That, above all else, is their aim, and they will do anything necessary to accomplish it. They initially believed that they could accomplish this primary goal with the original vision- advancing the idea of a futuristic, unique console that would completely set it apart from the competition and, by extension, cause it to radically outsell the 'Same Old, Same Old' machine that Sony was advancing. They also believed that by 'broadening the audience,' and trying to reach non-gamers, they would expand their market, and radically expand their sales.

And, to be fair, it did indeed set them apart from the competition... only not in a positive way. Instead of being viewed as a device that was desirable and advanced, it was viewed as restrictive, and ultimately being handled by a marketing staff that was fumbling the ball at every opportunity and displaying Sony-PS3 levels of arrogance. But again! At no time was Microsoft forcing anyone to purchase it; but because they weren't forcing anyone to purchase it... well, they found out that not many people were purchasing it. And, once again, what's Microsoft's primary goal?

Microsoft does, yes, have the right to say 'Our Way Or The Highway.' But when enough people start saying; 'Well, Highway It Is!' then the company faces a choice; first, they can either stick to their guns, and try to wait out the market in the hopes that, sooner or later, things will swing back in their favor because their product is so darned awesome. Sony did that with the PS3 in the early days, ignoring warning signs on the Internet, figuring that their device would be so gosh darned wonderful that, sooner or later, people would come to see things their way. This decision pretty much obliterated them in the U.S, because by the time Sony finally gave up their game of Chicken and started their own backpeddles and consumer-coaxing initiatives like PS Plus, Microsoft had gained so much of a lead they were pretty much unstoppable, and continued to hold that lead even after Xbox 360 exclusives were barely trickling out, and almost no Non-Kinect, non-Halo/Forza/Gears/Fable exclusives were being released in over three years.

Microsoft did say it's a marathon, not a sprint, and that's true. However, Microsoft wasn't expecting to be behind at all. This wasn't some master plan, 'Oh, we'll fall behind the PS4 for three years, and after that, BAM. Domination.' They were expecting, from the get-go, far more sales than they've gotten up-to-date, and when they realized they were losing ground, they decided that what they were doing just flat-out wouldn't work.

In conclusion; people have a choice on whether or not to buy something. Lotsa people didn't buy it. That's why Microsoft's changing it. Same as Sony in the PS3 days.

---

2) You've advanced the idea that Microsoft's focus, their vision, was to appeal as an entertainment hub, not simply as a game console. I swear to God, we must have had this discussion before, because you seem familiar, but even if we did, let me reiterate, The Xbox One's chances of succeeding as a game console are far greater than its chances of succeeding as a multimedia device. There are simply too many 'Pure-Blooded' devices, entertainment gizmos that range from being half the price, to one quarter the price of even the Kinectless SKU, for Microsoft to gain any traction in the wider market, and that was their miscalculation. They might have come in 'too early' for an Online-Focused Console, but they came in far too late to release a 'Media Box,' especially one so hilariously overpriced.

Now, If Microsoft released, say, a Kinect camera and enough hardware to handle video streaming and multimedia, maybe even simple indie games, (but none of the big blockbusters like Halo, or whatever, I mean like Ouya-level stuff,) and priced it very competitively, (Say 150, 200 dollars maximum, ideally just 100,) then I can see that device decently doing well in the non-Hardcore-gaming market. That would truly be 'catering to consumers.' The Kinect, the One Guide, they are worthwhile features, and I do think that they could draw in a non-gaming audience. (Although, in your case, I guess it would just be the Kinect, since you mentioned you cut cable.)

But the price. The price. It's a massive ball-and-chain around their ankle, and pretty much guarantees they will get viciously outsold by less feature-rich, but far more affordable, entertainment devices. Beyond Kinect and One Guide, the only real feature the Xbox One has over those FAR cheaper competitors is that it can play big, fancy games, and only gamers are going to care about that.

So, really, the Xbox One SHOULD focus on being a gaming device, because that's the only battle they might actually be able to win.

---

3) Finally, this idea that 'the hardcore gamer's opinion doesn't matter' is, frankly, ludicrous. When it comes to products, especially games or consoles, the most powerful force in advertisement is word-of-mouth, because you are significantly more likely to listen to a friend saying 'You should try this' than television commercial number 204 saying 'You should try this.' All the flashy television commercials in the world can't make a difference if it's not mingled with positive word-of-mouth, with enough regular consumers- which, in this case, would be gamers because why would anyone else have paid attention to the Xbox One before its release day- telling friends and relatives 'This thing is awesome.' On the flip side, one of the most destructive forces to a product's success is when a large enough group of people- and God knows there was a large enough group- decide that a product sucks Donkey Balls, for whatever reason. Because if someone either really really likes, or really really dislikes a product, you can bet your bottom dollar that they're going to express their opinion to everyone they know.

It's like going to a restaurant a few times, finding the food disgusting every single time, and when your friend asks you 'Hey, how about that place you went to last week?' you answer 'Bleeegh.' Chances are good, regardless of how fancy the banner is out front, your friend won't be going because he heard from you that it wasn't worth it.

The Internet has only magnified the power of word-of-mouth, allowing it to stretch across the entire globe, which is why sometimes companies have been caught paying people just to say positive and/or negative things about a certain product online. Enough people doing it, it makes a significant difference.

Just look at what happened! Many Unimportant Gamers hated the PS3, and the PS3 fell into third place, getting outsold what, 30 months STRAIGHT in the U.S., even in the later half of the generation? It was only able to achieve a Global second because of its dominance in Europe and Japan. Many Unimportant Gamers hated the Xbox One, and it's getting outsold by the PS4 in almost every single market, including its strongholds, and in recent months having trouble even outselling the Wii U globally, while the PS4, which plenty of the same Unimportant Gamers deemed the superior product, has catapaulted to first, DESPITE not having many titles on it; it's been propelled by hype and word-of-mouth alone. Heck, Many Unimportant Gamers didn't see the point of the WiiU in the first year, and it sold terribly! Companies don't simply need the individual sales of hardcore gamers, they need- they crave- the positive word-of-mouth that gets more units into the hands of gamers' less-researched friends and associates.

You might disagree with the opinions of gamers, fine, but if the voices decrying your product as shite outweigh the voices saying it's spun gold... don't expect to sell well.


((By the way, I know what you might say; 'But what about the Wii?! That's in first, hardcore gamers weren't all fans of that!' But before you forget, the Wii had a price advantage over its competitors, (which the Xbox One does not,) had an existing Nintendo-loving user base who spread positive word of mouth, (which for the Xbox One would only help in the gaming market, not help it in the wider entertainment market) and was designed to cater to a casual GAMING audience, not a casual entertainment audience.))
 

SeventhSigil

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CaitSeith said:
Nytr8 said:
For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik.
hydrolythe said:
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).

They were wrong. Most non-gamers didn't show any interest in the console, and the "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions" did what any "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining" consumer would do: they looked for an option with their rival company. I just imagine how pale their faces must have gone when Sony made their "How to share a PS4 game" sketch.

A hundred thousand percent this. Any product being released carries with it risk; you take something you think is going to do very, very well, (in this case being the previous Xbox dominance in the U.S., and their line of exclusive titles,) and pair it up with things that you, as a corporation, want to do well (some feature or attachment, like the Kinect) but are concerned won't be well-received, or won't succeed on its own if made optional. Sometimes, you succeed; Microsoft took a gamble on charging to pay for online multiplayer last generation, and the exclusives they released were more than enough to make that gamble pay off, giving them a lucrative secondary source of income. They took a gamble on sticking loads of advertisements in the layout later on in the 7th generation and, again, it paid off and they gained yet another lucrative stream of revenue. Any company, Sony, Microsoft, even Nintendo, will use existing influence and popular features to try and advance untested, or unpopular ones. Stricter paywall, unfriendly indie policies, all of these were things that paid off, because the positives outweighed them.

Sometimes, though, these gambles don't pay off; a feature list, or mandatory peripheral, or correspondingly higher price, gain so much scorn and dislike that it drags down the entire product. The Xbox One's higher price point, the Kinect that plenty of people didn't want, and other bumps in the road gutted their sales potential. At the same time, many indie developers finally had had enough, and Microsoft had to rework their indie policies to keep from missing out on titles that would be going to the PS4 instead.

Microsoft, like many, many other companies, took a gamble. The gamble failed. They are now scrabbling to get back on safe ground, and just like any other company that takes a failed gamble, they're going to be feeling fire singe their arse the entire way back.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.
Well, I could dismiss that as anecdotal evidence, but since you're lacking perspective doing so would accomplish little.

So...Always Online.

First, I recognize that some media requires an internet connection. Fine, sometimes that's just the nature of the beast.
But the problem with unilaterally praising always online is that always online is just as much a limitation of a system as it is a benefit. Its dependency on the net makes it as good as one's net connection.

Since internet service can vary GREATLY (even in the primary game markets), you can't logically pitch Always Online as if it were a strictly good thing.

Second, there's the bloody obvious: When a device (or form of media) is reliant on something when it doesn't have to be, that's just bad design.

To be clear, I have no problem with media being offered through the net; I think it's a great option.
But it shouldn't be the only option when it doesn't have to be.

I strive to be a fair man, so I'll throw my own anecdotal experience into this: Steam lets me download games and while I can only get them through the net that dependency did not automatically require a persistent internet connection at all times to play those games.

If there is potential to be explored or conserved through a smarter system, through adaptability, why hold back?

To put this in perspective: You cannot lose any of your convenience as a result of an offline failsafe being present, but I have something to lose if it's taken away. And even if I had excellent internet, I would want a failsafe in place just in case the situation changes.

Incidentally this is why I say the "Always Online is the Future" argument is complete rubbish; it's glorifying a limitation and for all the worst reasons.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best.
Your attempt at baseless marginalization is not convincing in the slightest.

And since you've demonstrated a history of doing so:
Repeating this "gamers don't matter" ("entertainment device, not game console") line and insisting that it's fact without a shred of evidence to support that claim will only make you look foolish.

Especially in the light of Microsoft infamous 180. They backpedaled their system offer to meet Sony's system at parity. I'd wager the proof you would need doesn't actually exist. At best, you can claim neither system is especially mind blowing, but that's just evidence of two similar systems not being mind blowing.

It isn't evidence that Microsoft's original Xbone was a superior platform or that Microsoft wasn't being foolish with leveraging its brand. Gamers matter to Xbox because Xbox is a gaming brand first and foremost 13 years going.

So save us both some time and cut this marginalization bullshit. You're fooling nobody.

I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
Good for you, but frankly I don't care about what you do with your devices.

"It works for me, so it must work for everyone."
That's just elitism trying (and failing) to pass itself off as reason.
What goes on in your ivory tower does not help me or anyone else.
 

GonzoGamer

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It's very simple. Gamers let MS get away with too much last generation (a 50% fail rate, a fee for online, then raising the fee for online) so for this generation they tried to get away with more. I saw this shit coming towards the fan years ago.
I have to say that I'm surprised that they've felt the need to backpedal this much, if at all. If they got some games with real hype, there are plenty of gamers who would pay $600 for a XBone with a wearable kinekt, sub-dermal tracking chip, and a monthly fee to use the machine in any way.

Do I feel bad for the gamers who got suckered into buying the kinectfull xbone or the devs who decided to support the thing? No. Given MS' track record, they should've known better. Sorry if I can't even bother to get out my miniature violin.
 

CaitSeith

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SeventhSigil said:
CaitSeith said:
Nytr8 said:
For starters, We all know what turmoil the xbox 1 went through from its initial reveal under the grip of Don Mattrik, we also know how the company changed the proposition to match what gamers wanted, post Matterik.
hydrolythe said:
If they made what GAMERS wanted they would make a VIDEO GAME MACHINE, NOT A MULTIMEDIA DEVICE.
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).

They were wrong. Most non-gamers didn't show any interest in the console, and the "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining little b1tches, who take no responsibility for their own actions" did what any "unashamed, egotistical, demanding, whining" consumer would do: they looked for an option with their rival company. I just imagine how pale their faces must have gone when Sony made their "How to share a PS4 game" sketch.

A hundred thousand percent this. Any product being released carries with it risk; you take something you think is going to do very, very well, (in this case being the previous Xbox dominance in the U.S., and their line of exclusive titles,) and pair it up with things that you, as a corporation, want to do well (some feature or attachment, like the Kinect) but are concerned won't be well-received, or won't succeed on its own if made optional. Sometimes, you succeed; Microsoft took a gamble on charging to pay for online multiplayer last generation, and the exclusives they released were more than enough to make that gamble pay off, giving them a lucrative secondary source of income. They took a gamble on sticking loads of advertisements in the layout later on in the 7th generation and, again, it paid off and they gained yet another lucrative stream of revenue. Any company, Sony, Microsoft, even Nintendo, will use existing influence and popular features to try and advance untested, or unpopular ones. Stricter paywall, unfriendly indie policies, all of these were things that paid off, because the positives outweighed them.

Sometimes, though, these gambles don't pay off; a feature list, or mandatory peripheral, or correspondingly higher price, gain so much scorn and dislike that it drags down the entire product. The Xbox One's higher price point, the Kinect that plenty of people didn't want, and other bumps in the road gutted their sales potential. At the same time, many indie developers finally had had enough, and Microsoft had to rework their indie policies to keep from missing out on titles that would be going to the PS4 instead.

Microsoft, like many, many other companies, took a gamble. The gamble failed. They are now scrabbling to get back on safe ground, and just like any other company that takes a failed gamble, they're going to be feeling fire singe their arse the entire way back.
Whenever I cross the street there is a risk. But if I cross the street without seeing the signs, without checking the red lights, without walking on the crossing path, or without looking at both sides before crossing, I increase the risk and rely more and more in luck to cross safetely. This isn't a black and white question. It's a question of how much they pushed their luck. And the answer is: too far this time. None of the previous things were so incovenient (or looked like a one-sided deal) for their average consumers than the always online DRM, lack of support of used games and Kinect always included, always enabled. Xbox is a game console brand. Xbox One was revealed to have gaming just as a secondary function.

And, the Kinect... why? Kinect was a lame experience for most gamers, and that made Kinect 2 a disaster for XB1. I know that if at first you don't succeed, try again; but I also know that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity. For the consumers, Kinect and Kinect 2 were the same thing; and Microsoft did nothing to make clear it had been improved (kinda sounds like they didn't learn that from Nintendo's marketing mistake).
 

Jimothy Sterling

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SeventhSigil said:
Nytr8 said:
Wait! Wait! You forgot some truth nuggets!

Firstly! ^_^ You do realize that there are gamers who aren't even Playstation fans, who hate the Xbox One not because they love the Playstation 4, but juuuust because they dislike the Xbox One entirely on its own merits, right? o_O The Escapist forums, in fact, are an excellent example of this fascinating phenomenon, because there are quite a few PC gamers, and back during the whole hullaballoo, the ones who had zilch interest in the Console Peasants were of the following opinion; 'I would need a lobotomy to lower myself to the point of buying one of those overpriced, underpowered, featureless messes called a gaming console. That being said, I would need a substantially larger lobotomy to pick the Xbox One over the PS4.' It wasn't a wave of love for Sony, wasn't even a wave of like for Sony, as the best that could be gained from many was 'Well, meh, they didn't completely fuck it up this time, did they? Nah, guess they didn't.' But comparatively speaking, 'Not Completely Fucking It Up' was still light-years better than what Sony's main competitor was doing, so what you were seeing as 'Love For Sony' was, in fact, 'A Lack Of The Same Utter Contempt And Dislike That Was Being Dished To The Xbox One.'

The height of that hilarity was back before the DRM reversal, where there were Xbox players, ON the official Xbox Forums, sizable linked gamertags and all, raising holy hell about their violent dislike of the DRM policies... something completely forgotten by the DRM policy supporters, who only a month later were insisting on the same forum that all the whining that had led to those policies being reversed was from Sony Fanboys, and no, the console would have sold fine if it went ahead with the DRM policies, cause everyone complaining about it was a Sony Pony that was going to buy a PS4 no matter what and just came here to troll!

Second! Yes, they reversed the things that have been so criticized, and that should be recognized. They have been. It isn't that they reversed the policies that is being criticized, it's how vehemently, how desperately, Microsoft tried to bluff their way through the situation in the first place. Just look at the Kinect. Rather than, from the earliest point, saying 'Okay, we hear where you're coming from, and we will take everything under consideration; we are making no announcements, no promises, etc, but we hear you,' they instead decided to double down on the Kinect by saying; 'What? No! Pfft. It's integral! It's as important to the console as the controller! You don't think we'd ever sell an Xbox One without the controller, do you? It's a part of the wider experience, we can't just cut it away! It IS the Xbox One experience, so yeah, not gonna be removing it!'

It was a calculated bluff, the belief that if they could convince the gamers that the Kinect was going to stick around for the forseeable future, then those gamers should finally shut up and buy the thing regardless of whether they wanted the peripheral. As it turned out, though, they were only half right; because even though the anti-Kinect sentiment was indeed dying down to a low, irritated grumble, there was no corresponding rise in sales. No boom to catch them up to the PS4; in fact, if Sony's statistics on the composition of their new console's userbase were accurate, then Microsoft might have been actively in the process of losing its 7th Generation userbase to its 8th generation competitor.

So, realizing they the bluff had failed, they whirled around, changed their minds, and had the gall to use the same reasons ("Consumer CHOICE!") that the device's detractors had been unsuccessfully using since before the console even came out. When coupled with the undeniable fact that they were getting trounced in every market by the competition, their move wasn't seen as a 'Pro-Consumer Move.' It was seen as 'Oh Dear God, Sony Has A Missile Lock, Fire The Flares!' Just as Sony's large price cut to the PS3 wasn't seen as a 'Pro-Consumer Move,' it was seen as 'Oh Dear God, Microsoft Has A Missile Lock, Fire The Flares!"

Because Sony got the same flak for the PS3, not simply because of what they did to it during its initial launch, but because they also tried to bluff against the consumer. They ignored the building discontent, made super confident and chest-puffing statements about how awesome it was, how the price was totally necessary and worth it, etc, etc, etc. And then they watched as their more expensive, less multiplatform-capable, far more loathed product got steadily outsold in the U.S., a market they had previously dominated. (Any of that sound familiar?) I wouldn't have TOUCHED a PS3 when it launched, and I didn't get one at all until a bit under three years ago, after my 360 died; before that, I was Xbox 360 all the way, because PS3 royally shat the bed, and even after they had mopped it up, the smell lingered.

Microsoft has opened a window, yes, and tidied up their rampant diarrhea. But the smell is something that's going to linger for awhile longer, as much as they're running around frantically spraying Febreeze everywhere. And frankly? It should. This mentality of 'Well, they went back on their bullshit, LET'S SHOWER THEM WITH PRAISE!' will only encourage publishers and the like to test the 'line' every chance they get, knowing that if they overstep their bounds there'll be no harm done. If a company steps out of line- Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, whichever- they should get such a thorough ass-kicking, they'll still be aching two years down the road... and those aches might well remind them not to try it again, at least for awhile.

In conclusion, The concept that gamers can look at the Xbox One's history, its marketing, its very messaging, and deem its handling to be almost hilariously incompetent, not based of some emotional attachment to its competitor, but based upon a completely objective assessment, must be too traumatic for you to endure. o_O Because rather than admit 'Well, yeah, they royally messed up, to a cataclysmic degree, and just like the PS3 before it are likely going to get a whipping from many gamers for a loooong time before the newly tilted rudder actually, finally corrects their course,' you instead use 'NOPE, SONY FANBOYS' like you're a small child clutching his favorite, snot-and-drool-streaked safety blanket.

Seriously. Accept the fact that there are folks who simply don't like the Xbox One right now; not only Sony's gamers, but plenty of Nintendo's gamers, the PC's gamers, hell, there are former Xbox gamers who jumped ship. While there are undoubtedly elements that operate based on 'Sony Fanboyism,' because this is the Internet, trying to insist that any criticism, even outright hostility, must automatically be coming from that group is incredibly naive, and sounds like the desperate, whimpering excuses of a small, particularly dim little lad. ^_^

Would you like some dipping sauce with that?
Its ironic that people state it would have sold fine with the DRM policies when the sole reason it removed them was because it wasn't getting any sales at all while the PS4 had a huge amount of them.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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CaitSeith said:
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).
That is incorrect. They literally said that. "Well if you don't have internet we have another device called the Xbox 360"
 

Jimothy Sterling

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GonzoGamer said:
It's very simple. Gamers let MS get away with too much last generation (a 50% fail rate, a fee for online, then raising the fee for online) so for this generation they tried to get away with more. I saw this shit coming towards the fan years ago.
I have to say that I'm surprised that they've felt the need to backpedal this much, if at all. If they got some games with real hype, there are plenty of gamers who would pay $600 for a XBone with a wearable kinekt, sub-dermal tracking chip, and a monthly fee to use the machine in any way.

Do I feel bad for the gamers who got suckered into buying the kinectfull xbone or the devs who decided to support the thing? No. Given MS' track record, they should've known better. Sorry if I can't even bother to get out my miniature violin.
The 360 has about a 20% failure rate, not 50%. Some people are just super unlucky.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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theApoc said:
Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
Ah yes. Just like Always Online, "it's inevitable".
As inevitable as cancer, and just as welcome.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
A move that was supremely foolish given the Xbox's history as a gaming brand.
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best. I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
You are wrong in both of your main points.

No device requires an always on connection if they can avoid it. Xbone required it for single player games, therefore, it was a poorly designed system. Coincidentally, they changed it back because the system had like 1/10th the pre-orders of the PS4. It was being utterly crushed by its only competitor simply because it lacked the 'features' of the Xbone.
 

Aurion

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Sseth said:
I don't really understand this episode. Microsoft are liars. Okay. The Xbox One backpedaled. Okay... Personally I'm not even that cynical, they tried one route and it didn't work for them so they changed its course back towards something that works. And then like any sane company they covered it under heaps of PR and misinformation. To think that any other company wouldn't do the same thing is just plain ignorant. So why is this such a big deal?
I like how you literally recited almost the entire point of the episode (Microsoft is trying to roll in good press after blatantly lying about how the Xbox One worked) immediately after saying you didn't understand the point of the episode.

Microsoft saw what the consumer base wanted, and the consumer base didn't buy the Xbox One until it got what it wanted. Why does it matter that they did what every other major corporation that's a huge part of the market does? What matters is that the message is clear; we won't buy your console until we like what we see.
Maybe because they sold people a gigantic bill of goods about the Xbox One and the Kinect, and maybe they shouldn't get a free pass for doing so?

I'm really baffled honestly. If you're still driven by the honesty of Nintendo or Microsoft or Sony when choosing your console you're a moron and you should learn to be pragmatic instead. Because they all do the same thing and you'll just be screaming "SONY ARE LIARS DON'T BUY THE PS5" when the next company fucks up.
And now you're just haring off into the great beyond.

This just seems like pointless, try-hard idealism to me.
Yes, calling people out on lies is pointless, try-hard idealism. Wisdom indeed.
 

GonzoGamer

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
The 360 has about a 20% failure rate, not 50%. Some people are just super unlucky.
Is that what it is Now? Because I remember them taking years to fix the problem and around the time they fixed the thing, it was determined that it had a 50% defect rate. I think I read the article here in fact; can't imagine where else.

Granted it's not like your buying GM (a RROD 360 never killed anyone), but regardless of what the actual percentage was, they let that crap go on for way too long.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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GonzoGamer said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
The 360 has about a 20% failure rate, not 50%. Some people are just super unlucky.
Is that what it is Now? Because I remember them taking years to fix the problem and around the time they fixed the thing, it was determined that it had a 50% defect rate. I think I read the article here in fact; can't imagine where else.

Granted it's not like your buying GM (a RROD 360 never killed anyone), but regardless of what the actual percentage was, they let that crap go on for way too long.
50% failure rate is a lot harder to bullshit an article about when most devices have a 5% failure rate max. I'll agree its still bullshit tho. What I found hilarious was people bitching that they bought 5 Xbox 360s after they kept breaking. After the second time I'd just throw in the towel and get a PS3 like a normal person.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional.
Actually that's not true.
They said the XBONE needed to be connected to be functional at all.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/21/xbox-one-will-not-function-without-kinect-attached

M$'s exact words from their marketing event:
Harvey Eagle said:
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes."
Not "some cases", not "most cases"; ALL cases.
Literally, the only way to interpret that is that the Xbone will not work without the Kinect.
 

CaitSeith

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
CaitSeith said:
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).
That is incorrect. They literally said that. "Well if you don't have internet we have another device called the Xbox 360"
LOL. Much worse.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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CaitSeith said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
CaitSeith said:
Microsoft took the gaming market for granted. The Xbox 360 was a hit in the gaming industry, and they supposed that their fan base would always follow them, no matter what (specially hardcore gamers, who eventually buy all the major consoles in each generation). They thought that their next hit would be the multimedia entertainment, and for those who didn't like it, well, "the Xbox 360 would always be there" (they pretty much said that).
That is incorrect. They literally said that. "Well if you don't have internet we have another device called the Xbox 360"
LOL. Much worse.
Coincidentally, that is the same quote that inspired by Internet-less friend to buy a PS3, something he never thought he'd do. Coincidentally, he immediately said the PS3 is a far superior console in terms of games and quality.
 

theApoc

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Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
Again, what they said was the XBOX ONE needed Kinect to be 100% functional.
Actually that's not true.
They said the XBONE needed to be connected to be functional at all.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/05/21/xbox-one-will-not-function-without-kinect-attached

M$'s exact words from their marketing event:
Harvey Eagle said:
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes."
Not "some cases", not "most cases"; ALL cases.
Literally, the only way to interpret that is that the Xbone will not work without the Kinect.
And when it launched neither of those two things were true. They wanted you to use the device, and they wanted a device connected to the network. There were some very good reasons for both.
 

theApoc

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
theApoc said:
Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
Ah yes. Just like Always Online, "it's inevitable".
As inevitable as cancer, and just as welcome.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
A move that was supremely foolish given the Xbox's history as a gaming brand.
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best. I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
You are wrong in both of your main points.

No device requires an always on connection if they can avoid it. Xbone required it for single player games, therefore, it was a poorly designed system. Coincidentally, they changed it back because the system had like 1/10th the pre-orders of the PS4. It was being utterly crushed by its only competitor simply because it lacked the 'features' of the Xbone.
Half of the games you play require an online connection to play properly. Seriously. While it is possible to play everything offline, you are not able to play 100% of pretty much any game released these days without a connection. Point being. There is a good reason for connectivity and it has nothing to do with screwing over the customer. And they removed the constant connection requirement because of nonsense like the things Jim posted in this video.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
And when it launched neither of those two things were true.
Gee, it's almost as if Microsoft changed the system because signs pointed to their target market not wanting it.

In any case, that proves Microsoft was full of shit when they said the XBONE needed Kinect to function in all cases.
It certainly wasn't system-critical if its requirement could just be patched out on day 1.

They wanted you to use the device, and they wanted a device connected to the network. There were some very good reasons for both.
Well good on them for having a unique vision, but practicality trumps convenience.
Especially when that convenience demands you make practical concessions for no good reason.

Half of the games you play require an online connection to play properly. Seriously. While it is possible to play everything offline, you are not able to play 100% of pretty much any game released these days without a connection.
And even then most of those same games aren't online for 100% of their content.

In fact, most online interactions are spurred on by the player as a mode. Very few games can actually claim to offer both online and offline while being mainly about the online bits (only the super-popular shooters like CoD, and previously Halo; yet even those examples still offered extensive offline content).

In any case, they still should not require 100% internet connection just to function AT ALL.

From an engineering standpoint: Better for something to function in the state one can always assume is possible than the state one cannot.

And they removed the constant connection requirement because of nonsense like the things Jim posted in this video.
If such "nonsense" leads to retaining practical functionality, then that's the kind of "nonsense" the market needs more of.
Progress only occurs when the needs of supply and demand can be met while pushing development forward.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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theApoc said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
theApoc said:
Atmos Duality said:
theApoc said:
They really just caved to critics like Jim, and will now just delay the inevitable. The kinect or something like it will become ubiquitous in peoples homes and no one is going to think twice.
Ah yes. Just like Always Online, "it's inevitable".
As inevitable as cancer, and just as welcome.

Entertainment console. For all of the claims that they lied about XBOX ONE, it has been presented a a multi-media hub from day one.
A move that was supremely foolish given the Xbox's history as a gaming brand.
The whole issue with always online makes very little sense to me. Half of the devices I use everyday are always online, for very good reason, convenience.

As for the move to entertainment hub being foolish, the only people that think that are gamers whose opinion on such matters is questionable at best. I eliminated cable and pretty much every other device in my living room over a year and a half ago, with my 360 there is no need for anything else, and yes I play games on it as well.
You are wrong in both of your main points.

No device requires an always on connection if they can avoid it. Xbone required it for single player games, therefore, it was a poorly designed system. Coincidentally, they changed it back because the system had like 1/10th the pre-orders of the PS4. It was being utterly crushed by its only competitor simply because it lacked the 'features' of the Xbone.
Half of the games you play require an online connection to play properly. Seriously. While it is possible to play everything offline, you are not able to play 100% of pretty much any game released these days without a connection. Point being. There is a good reason for connectivity and it has nothing to do with screwing over the customer. And they removed the constant connection requirement because of nonsense like the things Jim posted in this video.
Really? Because I've NEVER played a single player game which told me I had to use an internet connection to play it outside of Diablo 3 and Simcity. I'd only have to be online if it gave me some benefit, or allowed me to play an online mode.

Secondly, I DO have an online connection, outside Dark Souls 2 (and Dark Souls1), I think the last time I played a game and it told me I needed a connection to play or enjoy the majority of it was 14 months ago with Persona 4 Arena. I rarely touch online modes. For good reason. Most are standard boring deathmatch games which essentially become playing the same game over and over again because they have no intelligence behind the game. Its why I stopped playing AC multiplayer after Brotherhood, because it started focusing on the completely awful deathmatch mode which added nothing to the game and generally got boring in 15 seconds.


If I had required an online connection for many of the fantastic single player games that are still constantly released, when my internet fails quite a bit, I'd have been god damn furious.


What you have failed to argue, is my entire point. What benefit do I get from requiring a constant connection? Disk-less gameplay on a console? Couldn't care less. More multiplayer games coming out which are awful since I can count on my fingers a list of multiplayer games worth playing, many of which are for PC only? Constant connectivity with my 'friends'? Theres a reason I keep notifications turned off when I play on console. People are annoying. I tend to avoid them when its not on PC and being less annoying is actually possible.

What I don't understand is why I NEED constant connectivity. Which I never did. I simply never did. And the Xbox One never proved any reason at all why I need connectivity to enjoy my games. Especially since most great games that are released nowadays are single player focused.
 

theApoc

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Really? Because I've NEVER played a single player game which told me I had to use an internet connection to play it outside of Diablo 3 and Simcity. I'd only have to be online if it gave me some benefit, or allowed me to play an online mode.

Secondly, I DO have an online connection, outside Dark Souls 2 (and Dark Souls1), I think the last time I played a game and it told me I needed a connection to play or enjoy the majority of it was 14 months ago with Persona 4 Arena. I rarely touch online modes. For good reason. Most are standard boring deathmatch games which essentially become playing the same game over and over again because they have no intelligence behind the game. Its why I stopped playing AC multiplayer after Brotherhood, because it started focusing on the completely awful deathmatch mode which added nothing to the game and generally got boring in 15 seconds.
So what you are saying, in a nutshell, is that since YOU don't "need" the multiplayer aspect of always online, or needing to be online for the FULL game experience, then a company incorporating that into their system is definitely some sort of anti-consumer thing. Um, ok.


If I had required an online connection for many of the fantastic single player games that are still constantly released, when my internet fails quite a bit, I'd have been god damn furious.
Do you get furious at netflix or hulu or youTube when the net is down and you are missing content? Point being, there are pros and cons to connected media. Listing all of the cons and ignoring the benefits does not make it a bad thing, it just means you like to complain about something that should have always been a non issue, just like Jim.


What you have failed to argue, is my entire point. What benefit do I get from requiring a constant connection? Disk-less gameplay on a console? Couldn't care less. More multiplayer games coming out which are awful since I can count on my fingers a list of multiplayer games worth playing, many of which are for PC only? Constant connectivity with my 'friends'? Theres a reason I keep notifications turned off when I play on console. People are annoying. I tend to avoid them when its not on PC and being less annoying is actually possible.

What I don't understand is why I NEED constant connectivity. Which I never did. I simply never did. And the Xbox One never proved any reason at all why I need connectivity to enjoy my games. Especially since most great games that are released nowadays are single player focused.
You are missing the point. Requiring a constant connection, for any one of the reasons YOU just mentioned is a valid strategy in the current market. REGARDLESS of whether or not the consumer is ready for such a strategy, THAT in and of itself does not make it "anti-consumer". AND regardless of anything else, they removed the feature so you and Jim are complaining about something that never actually happened. At least not in the orwellian way you are making it out.
 

Atmos Duality

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theApoc said:
Do you get furious at netflix or hulu or youTube when the net is down and you are missing content? Point being, there are pros and cons to connected media. Listing all of the cons and ignoring the benefits does not make it a bad thing, it just means you like to complain about something that should have always been a non issue...
The context you're refuting specifies single player games.

Furthermore, you have yet to actually provide a firm answer to why should these games should require an always online connection, so arguing "you're just ignoring the pros" in this instance is awfully presumptuous...and false, since a single player game doesn't need a constant internet to function once installed.

Which means in this context, there is no "Pro" to consider for always online. (partially online yes, but not always online)
Making your comparison to online streaming services a big ol strawman.
 

GonzoGamer

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Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
GonzoGamer said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
The 360 has about a 20% failure rate, not 50%. Some people are just super unlucky.
Is that what it is Now? Because I remember them taking years to fix the problem and around the time they fixed the thing, it was determined that it had a 50% defect rate. I think I read the article here in fact; can't imagine where else.

Granted it's not like your buying GM (a RROD 360 never killed anyone), but regardless of what the actual percentage was, they let that crap go on for way too long.
50% failure rate is a lot harder to bullshit an article about when most devices have a 5% failure rate max. I'll agree its still bullshit tho. What I found hilarious was people bitching that they bought 5 Xbox 360s after they kept breaking. After the second time I'd just throw in the towel and get a PS3 like a normal person.
Yea, those are the people who compelled MS to perform their suicide stunt at last years E3. That was brutal. But at the same time, so many people did keep buying 360s, I'm surprised MS backpedaled on so much. I bet that if they stuck to their guns and not changed a thing from the infamous e3 announcement, the XBone's sales figures wouldn't be that much lower...at this point in time.

It was probably just 50% for a week at the peak of the problem (I always hoped that someone was being creative with that figure) but however someone BSed that figure, it's still high.
Yea, I had a friend who bought an extra one for while his was being fixed.
 

Jimothy Sterling

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theApoc said:
Rainbow_Dashtruction said:
Really? Because I've NEVER played a single player game which told me I had to use an internet connection to play it outside of Diablo 3 and Simcity. I'd only have to be online if it gave me some benefit, or allowed me to play an online mode.

Secondly, I DO have an online connection, outside Dark Souls 2 (and Dark Souls1), I think the last time I played a game and it told me I needed a connection to play or enjoy the majority of it was 14 months ago with Persona 4 Arena. I rarely touch online modes. For good reason. Most are standard boring deathmatch games which essentially become playing the same game over and over again because they have no intelligence behind the game. Its why I stopped playing AC multiplayer after Brotherhood, because it started focusing on the completely awful deathmatch mode which added nothing to the game and generally got boring in 15 seconds.
So what you are saying, in a nutshell, is that since YOU don't "need" the multiplayer aspect of always online, or needi