Jimquisition: Tomodachi Strife

xaszatm

That Voice in Your Head
Sep 4, 2010
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Sticky said:
xaszatm said:
Sticky said:
xaszatm said:
Sticky said:
EDIT:

Okay, I did some searching to try and understand what the hell you were talking about

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_brittleness

You mean THIS?

software brittleness is the increased difficulty in fixing older software that may appear reliable, but fails badly when presented with unusual data or altered in a seemingly minor way
This doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand. This is about old software that receives periodic updates until it's not stable anymore. This does. not. apply. to. this. game. Are you trying to redefine what 'brittle software' actually means?

It's not even something you can 'create', it's a result of old code being patched until it cannot function in a modern setting anymore. As far as you or I know, this doesn't apply to this game.
Actually, in this case, he/she might not be that far off the mark. Brittle Software might explain why the transfer of miis from the DS Tomadachi game caused so many glitches to begin with. Granted, I still disagree with him on everything else but I think it that case, he may have accidentally stumbled onto a point.
No, he hasn't. You see Brittle Software is used to refer to code bases that are reused in order to save time and money. As far as we know, the codebase for this game was not re-used in the making of it as there is no prequel or previous installment to take from. Unless it was lifted from an unrelated title, then no, he is wrong. This is not an example of brittle code. At all.

How do I know this? Because he just admitted it
Er...Tomadachi Life is a sequel to Tomadachi Collection. Tomadachi Collection was the first iteration of the series made for the Nintendo DS in 2009. The glitch involved transfering the characters from that game into Tomadachi Collection. I mean, you probably are right for other reasons, but there was older data for this game.
..Well I didn't actually know this. I knew about Tomadachi but forgot that it was part of a related series.

Wait were the other games even released here? I don't actually remember.

Anyway it's all the more reason that if the marriage logic was changed, it would require strenuous bug testing and QA.

And actually that would give all the more reason why the localization team COULDN'T change the code: they weren't the original makers of it in the first place and in the professional world; changing code others made without passing those changes 'upstream' is a big no no that could cost someone their job.

EDIT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomodachi_Collection

It WASN'T released here.

NOW this is making even less sense from Nintendo's standpoint, why even release TD: Life here if the original game wasn't even ported? Was demand for a Mii micromanagement game really that massive here in the west?

This actually paints a very obvious picture as to why they didn't include gay marriage in the first place: I doubt anyone, developer or CEO, ever expected TD: Life to make it's way outside of Japan.

I'm wondering if they localized it solely with the intent on breaking up the summertime game drought most platforms seem to have.
Yeah, its localization was a surprise to all of us. As far as I can tell, Treehouse wasn't handed this project until January of this year on top of all the other stuff they were localizing. So you can factor time in this mess as well. The localization of this game seems to come from Nintendo's panic mode over its financial status. At this point, they want sales, so they're literally throwing everything they've got and attempting to take advantage of the 57 million people who have bought a 3DS. Iwata even called this a harvest and is hoping to make Tomadachi Life the next Animal Crossing, though that dream is probably no more due to this controversy.
 

Sticky

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xaszatm said:
Yeah, its localization was a surprise to all of us. As far as I can tell, Treehouse wasn't handed this project until January of this year on top of all the other stuff they were localizing. So you can factor time in this mess as well. The localization of this game seems to come from Nintendo's panic mode over its financial status. At this point, they want sales, so they're literally throwing everything they've got and attempting to take advantage of the 57 million people who have bought a 3DS. Iwata even called this a harvest and is hoping to make Tomadachi Life the next Animal Crossing, though that dream is probably no more due to this controversy.
I want to shed a tear for them and their terrible business practices (Ha! Just kidding!) but then I remember that Nintendo has been trying to ride their success from the previous generation in hopes that they wouldn't have to do anything in order to make a killing this generation. Like no serious marketing or attempts to further bring games to their console.

And it's resulted in the demise of so many great games in their quest to be lazy. Wonderful 101 is the prime example of a great game that Nintendo just left to sink on its own because they seemingly buried it when it came out.

And only now are they realizing "WAIT, SHIT, You mean we have to MARKET our console and the games on our console for either of them to sell? And we don't actually have infinite money either?" and are scrambling to compensate for the past two years they've been in a money-induced coma.
 

Dragonbums

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May 9, 2013
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Zachary Amaranth said:
Are you okay with female genital mutilation? Pedophilia? Howabout the existing slave trade?

Are these okay simply because they're part of other cultures?
Of course I'm not okay with it. Any more than knowing that children and women are still burned in this day and age for witchery.

However I'm not going to stomp in there all colonial moral high ground style and proclaim that what they are doing is wrong because we Westerners have stopped doing it.

It takes years of understanding why that view came to be, and more years starting to convince people why that might not exactly be a moral thing to do (plus physical harm of ones' genitals are leagues worse than not being able to obtain a legal document of marriage.) Eventually the practice in question will fade out.

That's how you go about things like this and actually have it last.
 

Dragonbums

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May 9, 2013
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Sticky said:
why even release TD: Life here if the original game wasn't even ported? Was demand for a Mii micromanagement game really that massive here in the west?
There wasn't much demand from it outside of a few niche player bases outside of Japan that wanted to try it out. However it most likely has correlation to Iwata's earlier statements when he said that they will port over games they considered "Too Japanese" for an outside market and see how it goes.
 

Dragonbums

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May 9, 2013
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hazydawn said:
I'm considering what culture they are from, that's why I am lenient towards Nintendo. But that doesn't mean that what they did was not immoral.
But for it to be immoral it would have to of been done with intended malice. In this case it is a lot more than an oversight. I would call it stupidity first than claim that Nintendo acted morally wrong.



Owning slaves was considered okay at a certain point in America. And the owners can be excused to a certain point because they were constantly reaffirmed by their culture that it was fine. That doesn't change the fact that slavery was and will be a gross injustice.
Of course it doesn't. When slavery began to happen not a single country that participated in it were under any illusions what so ever that it was a shitty thing to do. Not one. Britain started it, and even they knew it was morally bankrupt. The same however can not be said for homosexuality. Many people genuinely believe it's immoral and deviant behavior.

You say I come to this moral judgement because I'm from a Western Culture. Which is true in the way that it allowed me to get in contact with certain ideas and arguments I wouldn't have been able to if I came from other places.
I'm fairly certain those ideas have come into play in all of the countries that disallow it. However they have absolutely no groundwork to work on. To assume such isn't fair. Considering that was also the same mindset we had not even 60 years ago. It took a lot of killing and murder on their part before they finally got a leg to stand on and people actually listened to what they had to say. In the case of Japan it's basically a universally adopted don't show don't tell policy. They don't necessarily care that your gay or in a gay relationship. They just don't want you to publicize it. And gay marriage is as public as it gets. Hence it's illegal there.


But you can't assume I chose this judgement solely because of where I was brought up. I have heard the other side of the argument on this issue and made a decision. This decision, based on all arguments I've heard and came to myself, has nothing do to with where I am from.
My main issue just comes from the fact that people are calling Nintendo bigots and anti homosexuality. I can understand why you disagree with their decision. I do. What I DON'T agree with is saying they are against homosexuality because they didn't include them in a game that was only released in a country where gay marriage is illegal. That's my biggest beef with the whole argument.
 

Dragonbums

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May 9, 2013
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Kameburger said:
Dragonbums said:
hazydawn said:
Dragonbums said:
The issue is that even if he was just focusing on the statement it reinforces the increasingly popular and very bad notion that if "If your not for us, your against us". Especially when it comes to clash with other regions and cultures that don't give a shit about Western ideals. In the case of Nintendo they make a game that is only for a Japanese audience. Japan is a place where gay marriage is illegal. As such it comes to no surprise that they don't put that feature in the game.
Would you finally shut up with your "If your not for us, your against us" bullshit? Jim and many others explained why in this issue Nintendo did not act in a neutral way.
Doesn't matter what culture you're from. The moral argumentation of whether something is wrong is still the same no matter what part of the world you are from and whether it is socially acceptable in this place.
How about I won't shut up?

Because this is exactly what I'm talking about. "It doesn't matter what culture your from" argument never works because the culture it assumes everyone has to live up to is the Western culture with no consideration for other countries in the slightest.

Ethnocentrism is quite a blindfold in a lot of situations it seems.
Actually I am inclined to agree that culture plays a huge role in the argument because different cultures tackle different problems differently, to state the amazingly extreme obvious. Not that anyone could come to defense of Nintendo for excluding gay people, and the initial statement from Nintendo of America was a big fumble on their part, but issues like this are tackled in very different ways in Japan then they are in the US.

Sexism is a good example. Japan has a lot of content that is considered quite sexist in the west however, there is a clear segmented content for men and women in Japan, and so while this kind of content is seen to alienate women in the west from mainstream gaming, in Japan women have games, comics, and various other forms of entertainment designed by them and for them. Sure this has not eliminated sexism, far from it, but it has eliminated this feeling of alienation and even misrepresentation as you can find plenty of content with positive depictions of women. A lot of this doesn't make it to the west and that is another problem, but again its a different solution that is based on the culture in question.

Similarly, with Japan, we are not dealing with a culture that has a violent opposition to gay culture, gay people are not being beaten in the streets. Gay people in Japan face more of a cultural barrier that stems for very entrenched family values which means that there aren't nearly as many hate rallies explaining how gay people threaten the fabric of society, but rather there are a lot more parents disowning their children because they embarrass the family type attitudes. But one thing is for sure, not many are stepping forward to talk about the gay experience. In that way, no one talks about these problems. Nintendo would likely have said nothing, and no one would have lifted a finger in Japan. At the same time, Nintendo Japan, coming forward in defense of gay people would probably do very little to help the problems that the Japanese Gay community faces, because again a lot of the problems stem from the family and culture of shame in Japan.

So yes culture makes a difference, maybe not in the morality of the core issue but certainly in how the issue manifests, is perceived and handled.

Jim's argument is absolutely correct, and he has a point and I didn't disagree with a word he said. But that is no excuse to ignore the nuances of reality.
I understand.
I suppose I should make it clear that I personally feel that Nintendo should of put gay relationships in the game. However I look a the larger picture and realize that my personal feelings of the matter shouldn't blindfold me from the larger picture.

The bottom line is that they aren't going to put gay marriage into a game where it's only released in Japan. A country where gay marriage is illegal.

As such it's really annoying to seeing people go the route of calling them bigots, anti-gay rights, etc.

It's even more annoying when Jim pulled the "It's 2014!" and " only sensible, well adjusted, etc..." phrases which would imply that the people working at Nintendo of Japan are the equivalent of backwater country shrubs over a heavily political and cultural issue that's very different from the West. Not once did any news outlet reporting this topic ever address that aspect of the issue at all.

It's extremely self centered. That's what I have a problem with.
 

Rozalia1

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Typical thread involving people congratulating themselves on how anti-X they are. Nice touch having most of them ignore the posters who have laid the actual situation out.

Dni0 said:
3. Finally, and most disturbingly, people seem to think it's ok to compare gay relationships to paedophillia.
I'm genuinely worried. Paedophillia is illegal - it hurts people and ruins lives. It's either full on or statutory rape.
Gay relationships, however, are consensual and legal. That's why we draw the line at gay relationships. Did you guys really just ask that question!?
And its illegal in Japan, and isn't it also a felony in many American states...so...yeah. Is homosexuality as bad as peaedophillia? To me no as I have nothing against homosexuality, but the fact of the matter is you can't get away with your logic when it is in fact illegal in a lot of places, including your own in certain areas.
 

Matthewmagic

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Feb 13, 2010
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As a gay man.

I don't find the failure to include homosexuals in Tomodachi Life that big of deal. If you want to make a fun cute game taking a whimsical approach on life, make that approach take place around the traditional nuclear family makes sense to me. I find just not including it far less condescending than the "oh and the one other gay man in the whole universe" option you find in Mass Effect 3 or dragon age (though Zevran was a pimp). Make the game you want to make, and lets not artificially take offense if it is not "inclusive" enough. I think it would be a much farther step forward for the gay community as a whole if we could just let shit like this slide and realize that not every game is going to have a gay character, or a black character, or a muslim character.
 

Matthewmagic

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This is kinda like being upset that the game does not include a apartment complex. Many people would rather live in one, the option of having one isn't the end of the world, but it just seems silly that people would get so upset. The game isn't being anti-gay it is just being the game it set out to be, and I respect that.
 

wulf3n

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BreakfastMan said:
Right, so software devs don't have tests in place to ensure what is currently working is still working before they push their changes out... (hint, they do actually. Or some do, at least)
You'd be surprised.

BreakfastMan said:
And you obviously don't use automated testing on new features before you push them, to ensure you aren't pushing something broken. That would just be silly, right? I mean, who uses test driven development, amirite?
Automated testing in games development only goes so far. Automated functional testing would be a nightmare to code, and unit testing is only really useful for testing a single bit of functionality, it doesn't ensure it will work correctly when live.

More towards your conversation. I agree that it's not as much work as Sticky suggests, but it's hardly "a couple of lines here or there". Plus you have to factor in design, implementation, testing and deployment, and that's assuming Nintendo doesn't have any bureaucratic red-tape to go through.

But I think what's driving Nintendo in this decision isn't the difficulty to change, but the snowball effects that change would have.

Say for example, nintendo patched the game so that the marriage/relationship check didn't filter out same sex mii's. If the "random-relationship" information I've heard is true, they've now created a situation in which the sexuality of the mii is not up to the player.

"What's the problem" I here you say, and to rational people there really isn't one, however the majority of the world is not rational. Just imagine the shit-storm that would ensue about how the game "Forces children into same-sex marriages" and all the talk about brainwashing. Thinking about it makes my head hurt, and it would put the current "controversy" to shame.

Now of course they could add in a "sexuality" option during character creation, much like the gender option, again more design,dev etc. and even then I'd still expect to see a significant backlash from parents raging about how their 3 year old was asking what sexuality they are, which would then spiral out of control, when the anti-gaming groups get their hands on it.

A simple change can have far reaching consequences. The difficulty of the change doesn't lie with the code itself.
 

eatenbyagrue

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Am I the only one who clapped when Jim said "You've heard of Jim Sterling now"?

Because I thought all that was missing was Jim dropping the mic and walking away.
 

Sticky

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wulf3n said:
More towards your conversation. I agree that it's not as much work as Sticky suggests, but it's hardly "a couple of lines here or there". Plus you have to factor in design, implementation, testing and deployment, and that's assuming Nintendo doesn't have any bureaucratic red-tape to go through.
I disagree about it not being as much work as it seems on the surface (the devil is always the details) but humbly accept that as your opinion that you are more than entitled to have.

wulf3n said:
Say for example, nintendo patched the game so that the marriage/relationship check didn't filter out same sex mii's. If the "random-relationship" information I've heard is true, they've now created a situation in which the sexuality of the mii is not up to the player.
This is another interesting point I didn't touch upon. The solution to this would be to let the player choose their sexuality upon creation, but once again that's more functionality that would have be added and tested on a game that has already gone gold in several parts of the world.
 

wulf3n

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Sticky said:
wulf3n said:
More towards your conversation. I agree that it's not as much work as Sticky suggests, but it's hardly "a couple of lines here or there". Plus you have to factor in design, implementation, testing and deployment, and that's assuming Nintendo doesn't have any bureaucratic red-tape to go through.
I disagree about it not being as much work as it seems on the surface (the devil is always the details) but humbly accept that as your opinion that you are more than entitled to have.
It's all kind of moot really, given that we haven't really defined what constitutes a large/small amount of work. What we need is a baseline. i.e. Less/More than ME3's extended cut? I would say less.
 

RoonMian

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Oh great Jimquisitor,

You spoke out directly what's on my mind these days... And it needs to be spoken out, often, everywhere. In my country there is a book selling like crazy right now, haunting all the best-seller lists. Its name is: "Germany out of its mind - The insane cult about women, homosexuals and immigrants" Yes, it is exactly what it sounds like.

Please, Jim... Please, learn German and spread your wisdom here as well... Please...
 

Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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Caramel Frappe said:
Hey guys, what's- OH GOD.

I just wanted to say you made me day with this. That's the funniest damn thing I've seen in a long while.
 

1337mokro

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You do know what this means right Jim?

We now need an episode that will feature the Dumb Comment of the Year Awards.
 

Ophenix

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Matthewmagic said:
This is kinda like being upset that the game does not include a apartment complex.
No, it isn't. This game is supposed to be a representation of a player but Nintendo is telling you that who you are and what you are is wrong.
I wouldn't have cared if it weren't for their reply which was pretty much "This is a whimsical world and we do not approve of any of that sin and sodomy you want to bring to it!"

At least the FireFox CEO had the balls to admit he is a biggot.