Jimquisition: Tomodachi Strife

Recommended Videos

Draconalis

Elite Member
Sep 11, 2008
1,586
0
41
Alterego-X said:
Fewer than 1% of Japanese people are Christian.
That doesn't change the fact that they adopted the stances from the west, which predominately Christian.

Before they opened their borders to the west in Meiji era, Japan did not have a religion that shunned homosexuality, thus they didn't.
 

xPixelatedx

New member
Jan 19, 2011
1,315
0
0
While I agree they shouldn't have said anything, They are entierly right. It is a political and social thing, which is exactly why they didn't want anything to do with it.

If Nintendo included gay marriage in that or any other of their games, they would get just as much if not more crap for that decision as they are for having patched it out. Do you know why that is when so many other games have tried to tackle homosexuality for the sake of being inclusive? Well, those games also weren't made by the industry's equivalent of Disney. Nintendo, like Disney, wants to keep an 'all ages' image, that's also why they ban all religious images and themes in their games. It's not because they think religion is bad, it's because religion is surrounded by politics and social debacles. The point I'm trying to make is sadly, for many people in the 1st world, "for all ages" stillalso means the exclusion of gay marriage. Maybe you should fight the good fight over here instead because even Disney won't touch this with a 10ft pole. Don't get me wrong, I know Disney likes gay people, but you know what? We'll probably not see a Disney animated movie about a homosexual couple in our lifetimes. Even in America, a (now) largely homosexual accepting place, we try and keep homosexuality and other such things out of the "for all ages" entertainment. That's an ongoing political and social battle (yes, Nintendo was right about that) that seemingly has no end yet in sight. If we can't even fix that over here, how in the WORLD do you or anyone else expect to force a company in a largely homophobic culture (like japan) to etch the way for us?

While I agree with the overall message and I would like to see homosexual characters in Nintendo games one day, I think it's completely absurd to try and bully Nintendo into fighting for gay rights in children's entertainment when we can't even come close to winning that battle over here. It's also absurd to try and smear Nintendo for saying this fight is one of politics when it's one of the bigger political hot-buttons over here in the west and everyone knows it.
 

bdcjacko

Gone Fonzy
Jun 9, 2010
2,370
0
0
Zachary Amaranth said:
bdcjacko said:
Look, I'm all for gay marriage is games and real life. Just as long as we don't have gay divorce.
What about gay annulments?
Look, if they= gays get married, I just think they should have to put up with that mistake for life.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
8,643
1,013
118
Country
USA
On the subject of boycotting things, I'm pretty sure at this point that I just can't bring myself to click another featured piece on the Escapist until they make one titled "We're Sorry That Our Coverage of Tomodachi Was So Terrible."

We've now had 2 news stories, a featured article, and a full Jimquisition entry claiming factually incorrect things about this game. They didn't patch out homosexuality, they patched out the game breaking.

And no, Jim, they weren't saying they excluded homosexual relationships to avoid social commentary. They were saying that they didn't exclude homosexual relationships to make social commentary. Plenty of people have made reasonable arguements that it was a stupid response to pretend that the exclusion of homosexuality isn't social commentary. You could have done that too. Instead you're pretending they were saying they didn't include homosexuality because that would be social commentary, and that didn't happen at all.

So basically, you took the trainwreck of lies going around this website and added another car to the pile. Congratulations
 

Robert Marrs

New member
Mar 26, 2013
454
0
0
People sure do love to complain. Its a smart business decision glitch or no and I won't condemn them for it. I seriously doubt Nintendo has any sort of agenda beyond making the most money they can. Simply put there are a lot of parents out there who would not buy their kids a game if it had same sex relationships in it. Many of those parents probably are not even bigots they just don't feel like trying to explain to a 6 year old why two guys or two girls are getting married. If it was just a glitch though that was fixed its even more of a non-issue. There isn't really a history of gay bashing in Japan that I am aware of so they don't feel the need to be all double plus good, politically correct and inclusive about everything that ever has been or will be released. The people that live there don't feel the need to throw a hissy fit every time their certain demographic gets omitted from something. No just leave it to us over here in the western world to tell Nintendo how bigoted they are for fixing an unintended glitch in a children's game.

TLDR; Life isn't fair. Build a bridge and get over it.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
1,262
0
0
Sticky said:
You're being simplistic here. You're assuming that just because their game shipped with a bug (bugs are in all games, I might add) that means they're not competent and professional.

What would be LESS competent and professional, keeping a bug because people like the idea, or fixing the bug?
I never said anything was wrong with fixing a bug. I said that Nintendo's software skills seem pretty much rubbish to begin with. A way to be more professional would be to not write such awful code in the first place.

And no, "every game has bugs" is not an excuse - few games has bugs as cripplingly bad as this one is described. And no modern systems other than Nintendo's have such endemic file saving, data transfer and corruption problems as Nintendo's handhelds.
 

kickyourass

New member
Apr 17, 2010
1,427
0
0
Honestly I feel that if Nintendo had just stuck with the "It was a side effect of a glitch that literally broke the game, it's too big to just patch in" stance, this episode wouldn't have been needed. Sure some people would have still been a bit stupid about it, but then they would've just been stupid, they wouldn't have had a valid point, now people have legitimate reason to say "The hell Nintendo?" and it's because Nintendo chose the worst possible defense for their actions. Honestly so many problems would be averted in this day and age if people just thought for 3 minutes before opening their mouths.
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
You can have relationships in the game, and until Nintendo edited it out, these relationships could be same-sex. Citing bugs that affected the larger game - it wasn't supposed to be there in the first place - Nintendo patched gay marriage out of the Japanese version of Tomodachi Life. Nintendo [of] America made it quite that it had no intention of putting it back in for the game's western release. Since, shockingly, some gamers are actually gay and actually like being represented in games that put personalization first, a Miiquality petition was enacted to try to get Nintendo to change its mind. So far, so mildly controversial. And then Nintendo, itself, made things stupidly controversial."
You the player, could never have a same-sex relationship. So I really don't know how you can claim Jim is right. And setting one of the mii's as the incorrect gender to have one was never patched ((how could it be really)) so that would be wrong to.
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
1,262
0
0
Eve Charm said:
A bug that only appears when the 3ds takes data wirelessly from the wii or somehow from the ds version of the old game. It's not the save feature in battlefield 4 or anything in Aliens CM for starters.
Other developers also being incompetent is not proof of Nintendo's competence.
 

Sticky

New member
May 14, 2013
130
0
0
Aardvaarkman said:
Sticky said:
You're being simplistic here. You're assuming that just because their game shipped with a bug (bugs are in all games, I might add) that means they're not competent and professional.

What would be LESS competent and professional, keeping a bug because people like the idea, or fixing the bug?
I never said anything was wrong with fixing a bug. I said that Nintendo's software skills seem pretty much rubbish to begin with. A way to be more professional would be to not write such awful code in the first place.
I genuinely can't tell if you, anonymous person on the internet. Are being serious here.

It sounds like you're blowing a couple of bugs out of proportion because you have one of the worst cases of confirmation bias I've ever seen.

Aardvaarkman said:
And no, "every game has bugs" is not an excuse - few games has bugs as cripplingly bad as this one is described. And no modern systems other than Nintendo's have such endemic file saving, data transfer and corruption problems as Nintendo's handhelds.
Like this, did you ever play the N-Gage?

Or say, any of Ubisoft's handheld titles last generation?

You have no right to say that Nintendo is even a quarter of the incompetence of your average development team if you haven't. Those are some masterpieces in bad software design. Nintendo is pretty good considering that most of their games don't have a patch cycle unless strictly required.

Aardvaarkman said:
Eve Charm said:
A bug that only appears when the 3ds takes data wirelessly from the wii or somehow from the ds version of the old game. It's not the save feature in battlefield 4 or anything in Aliens CM for starters.
Other developers also being incompetent is not proof of Nintendo's competence.
You did say that "few games have bugs this crippingly bad"

When we can look at the industry

and see that's not true.

And also see that MANY games have bugs FAR WORSE than an instability when an odd Mii transfer was done in an unexpected way.
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
Aardvaarkman said:
Eve Charm said:
A bug that only appears when the 3ds takes data wirelessly from the wii or somehow from the ds version of the old game. It's not the save feature in battlefield 4 or anything in Aliens CM for starters.
Other developers also being incompetent is not proof of Nintendo's competence.
True but your setting the bar too high nowadays for a game to come out and not be full of game breaking bugs. At least nintendo's team bug came from gathering data from old, out of date technology. Least they aren't trying to lock their games behind drm or online only then screwing the online part at launch. I believe every major company has been guilty of this in the last 3 years.
 

Callate

New member
Dec 5, 2008
5,114
0
0
Well... it's like this.

Tomodachi Life is rated "E" for "Mild Fantasy Violence, Comic Mischief".

Billy's mom gets Tomodachi Life for Billy.

Billy plays Tomodachi Life.

Billy shows his mom that he can make boys kiss in Tomodachi life;

Billy's mom takes his 3DS back to the store.

...

Now, it may well be that Billy's mom is a close-minded cultural throwback. It may well be that twenty years from now, every state in the United States will fully recognize gay marriage. I would personally be quite glad to see this. Trends seem to indicate that younger people are far more accepting of homosexuality than their elders, even among many communities one would tend to think less tolerant of such things, such as Evangelical Christians. It's quite entirely possible, and even likely, that fear and discomfort with having a gay friend, neighbor, teacher, etc. will one day be hard to contemplate.

We aren't there yet. As tempting as it is to believe that your particular pool is a microcosm of the greater world, as much as the Internet encourages us to believe that through the ease with which we find "our own", there are still a lot of people who cheer things like that doofus on Duck Dynasty.

I'm not saying that Sterling isn't right that Nintendo handled this badly. Or that saying "we're not going to engage in social commentary" isn't taking a kind of stance. Or even that, maybe, it wouldn't be a good thing overall to see gay marriage in Tomodachi Life.

But, don't suggest that it would be without consequence. Don't do it. It's not true. What goes for M-rated Skyrim's audience in a game full of shades-of-gray and bloodletting or even The Sims' "anything goes as you make videogame characters have threesomes with tv celebrities and aliens" atmosphere does not necessarily hold true for a family-friendly E-rated Nintendo game on the hardware they've worked the hardest (hello 2DS) to make child-friendly.

Having gay marriage in TL might well be the right thing to do. But it would cost them. Suggesting it would be a freebie is putting a thumb on the scale.
 

Silvershock

New member
Jul 12, 2013
34
0
0
erbkaiser said:
Oh yes Nintendo is horrible because as a Japanese company, it applies Japanese cultural norms to a game.
Ah, the Nintendo white-knighting continues. I'm rather tired of this particular line, so let's deal with it. They are not just a Japanese company. In fact, I believe the response that annoyed everyone came from Nintendo of America, which is most definitely not a Japanese company. They work in a global marketplace, same as anyone else, and the game is being localised for NA release, which is why gamers from NA and Europe asked them to make the change.

Are you still following along, or do you need help?
 

Aardvaarkman

I am the one who eats ants!
Jul 14, 2011
1,262
0
0
Houseman said:
And only having a select set of characters in the game would still be exclusionist, by the logic if "not including something is exclusionist"
But nobody except you is using that logic.

The logic others are using is that characters already in the game are being artificially excluded from certain actions.

Houseman said:
Someone would have to go in there and change every static instance of "her" to "his", and "her" to "him" for instance, or at least variabalize the script.
WHAT!?

Those pronouns have nothing to do with straight or gay. The characters already have genders, so this would already be accounted for. Gay marriage doesn't change any of those things.

Houseman said:
Adoptions don't exist in straight marriages?
Not in the game they don't. In the game, the female gets pregnant as far as I know. There is no option for adoption. However, if you were to implement gay marriage with children, you have to make new assets, or at the very least write script that explains what happened off screen. Either way, it costs time and money.
So, who said that they had to allow adoption or gay couples with children? If the only option for children is reproduction, then that's consistent across gay and straight marriage.

It's weird that they wouldn't include it though, as gays aren't the only ones that would want to adopt. It's also weird if you can't have children without marriage. So, that's pretty dumb, but once again, not the issue that's being discussed here.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
8,643
1,013
118
Country
USA
MarsAtlas said:
Wow, been through the entire thread, and I find it hilarious, in the cynical sort of way, that all the people accusing Jim of being misinformed if not knowingly lying are themselves, misinformed, as I've yet to see any of these people actually explain what happened correctly.
I will agree that some people accusing Jim of being misinformed are themselves misinformed, but you are in the same way misinformed.

They didn't patch out gay relationships, at all, ever, not even a little bit.

They patched out an error that broke the game. Not one that broke the game by making people gay, it just broke the game. I'm not entirely sure how people think one observes gay characters in the glitch when the glitch apparently "corrupted the save data and prevented people from progressing." You can't tell if the Miis are gay if your save is corrupted and you can't do anything.

What happened was they patched out a terrible, game breaking glitch. Then, unrelated, Japanese players started crossdressing characters to make it seem like they had gay Miis. Then, a Japanese site reported on these two seperate events in the same article. Finally, an english speaking person misinterpretted the artcle while translating it thinking that the glitch was what caused the gay marriage screenshots.

The glitch didn't cause gay characters. The glitch was completely unrelated. The homosexual options in the game, meaning crossdress a character to pretend or have nothing, have not changed at all since the games release. Not even a little bit.

Read http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/05/nintendo-on-gay-marriage-and-tomodachi-life

So, yes, Jim is misinformed here.
 

bdcjacko

Gone Fonzy
Jun 9, 2010
2,370
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
bdcjacko said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
bdcjacko said:
Look, I'm all for gay marriage is games and real life. Just as long as we don't have gay divorce.
What about gay annulments?
Look, if they= gays get married, I just think they should have to put up with that mistake for life.
Then I propose we allow people to marry more than one person as long as they're of the same sex. Aside from still having to deal with it, that really should piss off some Mormons.
I would like to add that the polygamous homosexual need to prove they are mormons first. The more arbitrary the law, the more correct it is.
 

Therumancer

Citation Needed
Nov 28, 2007
9,908
0
0
The problem with the argument that Jim is making is that homosexuals represent an extremely tiny percentage of the population. What's more it's not something that is "generally accepted", it's a major political issue in the first world seeing divides of like 50% of the population, and something that is outright detested in the second and third world with the support of homosexuality being one of the things used to rally those people against the first world as being decadent and immoral, indeed one could argue it contributes to a lot of overall political tensions as a lot of countries want to engage in censorship of the media, internet, and other things in part because of this kind of thing and the idealogy the American media presents.

Trying to say that "gay rights" shouldn't be political is by definition a political statement, and a controversial one. Especially seeing as the entire gay rights movement started as saying that someone should not be arrested simply for leading an alternative lifestyle. The very term "alternative lifestyle" has fallen out of use right now, but it was a key element of the whole gay rights movement for a long time. Only some very extreme people were making arguments that gays should be basically inserted into all aspects of society and media, and presented as being around in equal number to heterosexuals and such when they aren't. The movement snowballed into this kind of thing, going to attacks on things like video games for treating an alternative lifestyle as one, and not feeling obligated to include it, when originally it was more based around the idea that what a couple of consenting adults do in their own bedroom is their own business. The whole argument that "it's not like anyone is going to get up in your face about it, if your not in their bedroom why do you care" more or less no longer applies. This is in part why the issue is increasingly political, and why you have a lot of people who were early gay rights supporters now embracing the other side. Even in the US, perhaps the most permissive nation on earth, there isn't real inertia for gay marriage, which is why you see it being passed someplace one day, and then banned another, in part because in order to pass a lot of these laws a political game needs to be played to bypass the normal checks and balances inherent in society to allow changes to laws without the necessary levels of societal support. If there was some trend towards majority or super-majority support you wouldn't see the issues you do now, because a tiny, fringe, minority of haters just couldn't accomplish this much.

What's more, one has to also look at video games in particular and the negative reaction the gay community is getting from it's own actions. Look at say "The Old Republic Online" as an example, a set of designers (Bioware) who showed that they had no problem developing gay and bi-sexual characters when they fit a given storyline, was brutally attacked for writing a game where they didn't insert any such characters and romance options as they didn't think it fit. The basic argument was one of an entitled minority. When Bioware eventually agreed to develop some, a promise it kept with it's first major expansion, the gay community then rallied screaming that it wasn't enough, making it clear (and some people even outright stating) that what they wanted was intrusive gay content, so if you walked onto your ship you'd have homosexuals trying to flirt with you and stuff, with the specific intention of annoying straights in order to make a statement. The clashes over this in and outside of the game have largely died down, but it kind of showed that this is a minority group that tends to escalate it's demands when you give them anything, which can be an issue when your dealing with sexual behavior that actually repels a good amount of the population who aren't wired that way (basically you might not care if two dudes want to get it on, but you don't want to have to watch them make out, or have some dude following you around, trying to get into your pants).

There is also the issue of course of international acceptance, a big question is of course whether a game like a life sim is being intended to be sold internationally and a lot of effort regionally editing it is undesired. Sure the first world might push for their gay relationship simulator being thrown in, but in other countries where such behavior is seriously looked down on or still outright illegal you have a problem. Especially if your heavily selling to various Asian countries who aren't always the most progressive and tolerant guys on the planet. While a nation like Australia might tolerate some easily bypassed filters (South Park's crying Koala) other nations might not be so accepting and it could hurt business relations. While it wasn't sexual I look towards some of the stories I've heard about WoW's release in China, where they have a prohibition against showing the dead/undead walking around, so they had to re-do the entire playable undead faction into something else (basically ugly humans) for a Chinese release which apparently too a lot of work, and lead to certain things playing out very differently since especially early on the major theme is fighting against undead and "The Lich King". Supposedly this also lead to them using less undead in their later expansions (which I haven't played as much) although they were still present as well, and the whole Pandaria thing was in part a compromise by throwing in some eastern (particularly Chinese) inspiration so it could be defended as "mythological" under Chinese law and see less censorship. How true all of this (especially the later parts) are is debatable, but I've run into a lot of references over the years. Surprisingly regional content requirements is something nobody bothers to consider when homosexuality in games come up, it's one case where the cosmopolitan tend to gain major cases of tunnel vision both in the actual numbers involved in their own country, and global attitudes outside of the first world countries the US most shares media coorespondance with.

That said, yes, Nintendo has committed yet another press flub, but at the same time I don't think they can be considered entirely wrong in making their statement about politics. Anyone who has clashed from either side of the gay rights equasion in the USA even and watched the laws waffle, should be painfully aware this is a political battleground even if people wish it wasn't one. Even if a gay-accepting super-majority appears in the first world (as opposed to being wishful thinking people hope will become a reality through claiming it is) it will still remain an international battleground and a factor in anyone wanting to sell a product outside of the most civilized and enlightened countries. Especially seeing as it's not like we're going to start invading nations because they are mean to gay people.

I'll also say that I think "alternative lifestyles" is a slippery slope especially when you start looking around globally. One group that outnumbers homosexuals vastly for example are Polygamists, which can become increasingly common outside of the first world. Even the US has had issues with Polygamist communes and the male children being forced out as soon as legally possible so the older men can monopolize all the girls. I don't know if this game already allows that, but to put things into perspective it could be argued that if your going to allow one alternative lifestyle, you have to allow all of them, especially more common ones, when looking at a global marketplace. Follow that train far enough and even if it's not polygamy and it's problems you will eventually wind up with something that will offend even the most tolerant person. Not an argument I expect to be popular here, but when looking at a product like this it does make a degree of sense to cater to the largest group of people (the supermajority) and pretty much try and omit everything that could cause a serious problem. In absolute terms it's not just gays getting the shaft, it's just that they represent a political flash point in the US and other first world nations. I mean in theory if such nations were more politically powerful in a global scale, you could potentially see some nation that allows and encourages polygamy and has a low age of consent argueing that it's bigoted to have a game based on western American/European standards where they can't say marry 12 year old girls, relegate them to house work once they get "too old" (18 or so) and then marry another one, as a few women's rights coalitions will point out garbage like that still happens throughout a surprising portion of the world, and would count as a valid lifestyle people would want to simulate.

Ahh well, I'm rambling. I'm not going to argue this in detail, I already know most people will disagree with me for one reason or another. I just think it's not that big a deal, and honestly this is probably the wrong place to be trying to draw a line if you support gay rights. It's an easy target from a certain point of view, but really if I was a gay rights supporter I'd be picking other battles, and working more towards trying to create that supermajority as an actual reality than fighting things like this that are likely to just solidify the divide and convince as many people to side against you as they will bring to your side. I'm kind of in the middle of the issue which makes me hated by both sides (strongly pro-gay and strongly anti-gay) so I get it from both ends, which is why I'm not going to bother to get into serious political arguments here again.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
8,643
1,013
118
Country
USA
MarsAtlas said:
Since you posted this while I myself was making a post, I point you to my previous one. The bug that damaged the game was in fact related to same-sex marriage.
IGN- "So it was actually two separate things that got lumped together into one piece of confusion that resulted in people not quite understanding what had gone on."

http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/05/05/nintendo-on-gay-marriage-and-tomodachi-life

Saying that the glitch and the gay relationships were unrelated.

Kotaku- "Update: In a comment released to MCVUK, Nintendo stated that there wasn't a bug that allowed same sex marriage. Rather, some fans had dressed female characters to look like male ones."

Saying that the glitch and the gay relationships were unrelated.

Would you like to contest my double sourced information?
 

Eve Charm

New member
Aug 10, 2011
760
0
0
MarsAtlas said:
Eve Charm said:
You the player, could never have a same-sex relationship. So I really don't know how you can claim Jim is right. And setting one of the mii's as the incorrect gender to have one was never patched ((how could it be really)) so that would be wrong to.
Yes, you could. They didn't patch out cross-dressing, they patched out an exploit where you could have to male miis marry each other because that bug caused a lot of errors with the game. You can still crossdress a Mii and pretend its a same-sex relationship. Those will just happen to have an M and an F with the M crossdressing if its a lesbian relationship and the F crossdressing if its a gay male relationship. What the bug took out was a status which officially was M - M relationship.
Nope incorrect, Two male mii's marrying each other, was what happened when a user would set one of the two mii's to female, either their own or the one they wanted to marry and cross dressing, Still in the game. The bug was again, when data was imported from the Wii or the old ds version, it would add those mii's to the 3ds game, while doing it, it caused a data leak, so when the game assigned the mii's into the game, it'd make them single, married, friends and what not, and setting them to married it could accidentally set two males or two females as married. Some players noticed this and thought it was cool, but it also crashed the game.

The player could never do this on their own, before or after patch, all the patch did was fix it from screwing up the data transfer that wouldn't allow the players to save their game anymore if that transfer glitch happened.

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2014/04/nintendo_provides_some_context_to_2013s_tomodachi_life_same_sex_marriage_controversy
((probably the only good news article on the whole story))
 

atavax

New member
Dec 21, 2013
13
0
0
First, i disagree with his assessment of Nintendo's response. That when Nintendo responded and said they aren't trying to make social commentary. That interpretted them as saying allowing for gay marriage would be social commentary. When in fact i think they meant that when they omited same sex marriage they weren't trying to commentate on it. I think it is a case of people interpretting Nintendo's response in the worst way possible. Its typical people on the internet looking for reasons to be upset.

I think part of the reason for backlash is a disrespect for the game genre. Yeah, the AAA singleplayer games that don't include all sub sets is acceptable because it is ART and its about the developers' vision more then satisfying every individual, but in a life sim, the developer is racist if they don't. The sistine chapel isn't worse because it is a bunch. of white people. Art is Art and as long as the art isn't inherently hateful which omission of some minorities isn't, then the artists don't deserve this crap.

I think it is also disrespectful of Japanense culture. That the game was perfectly respectful in their culture. I don't want every Japanese piece of art to have to avoid being shown in the west inorder to avoid backlash. Being tolerant of other cultures goes well beyond being tolerant of people with other sexual preferences and even goes well past being tolerant of pieces of art that omit gay couples.

My undersanding is the game is about making babies.It is obvious that including gay couples would require another set of mechanics. While it would of been nice to have gay options, saying a game about making babies is discriminatory if it doesn't also have mechanics for gays to make babies is ludicrous.