How can you tell that's the intent? Bioware's shallow normally, and they've had gay characters in their games since before this became an internet kerfuffle.Abnaxis said:My point isn't that the gay option is more shallow, but that the shallowness is exacerbated by the fact that it was tacked on with a minimum amount of token effort, by people who don't have any artistic desire to add a homosexual option but included it because the corporate guys don't want a PR headache.
You understand that's a non-sequiter, right?atavax said:Or maybe if consumers want companies to speak to candidly consumers can't immediately interpret what they say in the worst way possible.
Your alternative interpretation?Like when someone says they aren't trying to make social commentary interpreting it as them saying that the inclusion of same sex marriages can only be done through social commentary.
Actually, I was talking about the way Microsoft said stupid things to its fanbase in response to their dislike of these things. So it doesn't matter if you liked Kinect and hated DRM, it was their responses. Just like it doesn't matter if you wanted gay marriage in a Nintendo game or not.Reps typically say stupid things, so you're going to need to be more specific in terms of the Xbone. I defended the mandatory inclusion of the kinect but not the original DRM policy. I am almost exclusively a PC gamer and don't have strong loyalties to any console developer, i don't own a wii, xbone, ps4, or any handheld gaming console.
So are they...losing out? I'm unclear as this seems to be the exact opposite of your previous point.Pogilrup said:Now remember GTA V's criticisms of lack of even a single female protagonists? There where three opportunities to include a female player character in the campaign, but all three were passed in favor of making three male player characters.
A hefty opportunity cost in total.
Yes, maybe inclusivity will offend some bigots and homophobes and racists and those opposed to whichever group we're talking about at the time.ExtraDebit said:Sometimes inclusivity does bother other people, for example what if psychopaths were complaining that the game doesn't allow them to kill other people and they felt they were excluded and in turn murdering people were included in future games?
By making homosexuals inclusive it does offend homophobics and a lot religious people. Somethings in the world are just mutually exclusive, like gays and homophobics, republicans and democrats, religion and atheism......sometimes you just can't include one without offending the other.
While I whole heartedly cheer for gay people, my logic being the more they want men the more women are left for me, I must admit that I do not enjoy watching two men kiss and hearing another man say "my husband" makes my skin crawl. This isn't something I choose consciously , it's an reaction I have no control of, I was born this way....much like gay people were born gay.
And if I do have to watch two men kiss in my games it WILL affect my enjoyment of the game. So do not be so quick to say it doesn't affect others.
There those who argue against a sequel contain a female protagonist when the series featured male protagonists in past, a non-Caucasian in a series that feature mainly variations of Caucasians, or an openly gay player character in a series that never had a gay player character before.Zachary Amaranth said:So are they...losing out? I'm unclear as this seems to be the exact opposite of your previous point.Pogilrup said:Now remember GTA V's criticisms of lack of even a single female protagonists? There where three opportunities to include a female player character in the campaign, but all three were passed in favor of making three male player characters.
A hefty opportunity cost in total.
This is probably going to come off very convoluted but anyway. Your answer is "Fuck 'em" ? That is just as bigoted as someone who is homophobic regardless of how you spin it. The suppression of any opinion whether you agree or disagree with it, is still oppressing someones beliefs which in my eyes is the greatest crime any person can commit (Belief and acting on your thoughts are different). Everyone should be entitled to believe what they want wrong or right in each others eyes as no one is better than one another so what right do we have to judge the people around us? Sexual Orientation and opinion to me are the same (but please read on before you shot me down) as they all stem from our feelings and life experience.Arcane Azmadi said:Bravo Jim. Refusing to apologise when you're WRONG doesn't make you strong, it makes you a stupid douchebag. Too many people fail to understand that.
Yes, maybe inclusivity will offend some bigots and homophobes and racists and those opposed to whichever group we're talking about at the time.ExtraDebit said:Sometimes inclusivity does bother other people, for example what if psychopaths were complaining that the game doesn't allow them to kill other people and they felt they were excluded and in turn murdering people were included in future games?
By making homosexuals inclusive it does offend homophobics and a lot religious people. Somethings in the world are just mutually exclusive, like gays and homophobics, republicans and democrats, religion and atheism......sometimes you just can't include one without offending the other.
While I whole heartedly cheer for gay people, my logic being the more they want men the more women are left for me, I must admit that I do not enjoy watching two men kiss and hearing another man say "my husband" makes my skin crawl. This isn't something I choose consciously , it's an reaction I have no control of, I was born this way....much like gay people were born gay.
And if I do have to watch two men kiss in my games it WILL affect my enjoyment of the game. So do not be so quick to say it doesn't affect others.
But you know what?
Fuck 'em.
Seriously, fuck 'em. You can't please fucking everybody and given the choice between pleasing people who just want to live their life their way and pleasing people who want to control how other people live their lives, the bigots can go and eat shit.
And saying you cheer for gay people because "the more they want men the more women are left for me" is like saying "I'm not racist I have black friends" because there's a black guy who works in the same office as you who you only tell black jokes about when his back is turned. And claiming you being unable to accept gays is the same as gays being unable to choose their sexuality is just another example of false equivalence. "Sexual orientation" and "opinion" are NOT the same thing. You WEREN'T "born that way", you were RAISED that way and that IS something you can change if you made an effort to not be so judgemental. But you won't, because it's easier to just insist that gays should just stay out of your way all the time.
Pogilrup said:And unfortunately they know exactly what they would be missing on due to the fact that what they fear to lose in the new work already exists in past works.
Except it's not necessarily an opportunity cost, because the additions or changes don't automatically mean they are at the expense of existing content. If a company believes there's a significant gain (and apparently, Nintendo felt there was a significant enough loss), additional resources can readily be employed to add content. More development time can be added, as need be.An apology or statement of commitment to change in the future means the company is willing to discontinue some of what is currently found in the existing work when they create a new work. To discontinue would be to incur an opportunity cost.
Nobody is infringing on the ability of someone to hold an opinion. Arcane was, as far as I understand, saying we shouldn't exclude gay people from games in order to cater to bigots. That's not "suppression of opinion".Squeaky said:This is probably going to come off very convoluted but anyway. Your answer is "Fuck 'em" ? That is just as bigoted as someone who is homophobic regardless of how you spin it. The suppression of any opinion whether you agree or disagree with it, is still oppressing someones beliefs which in my eyes is the greatest crime any person can commit (Belief and acting on your thoughts are different). Everyone should be entitled to believe what they want wrong or right in each others eyes as no one is better than one another so what right do we have to judge the people around us? Sexual Orientation and opinion to me are the same (but please read on before you shot me down) as they all stem from our feelings and life experience.
Well, if you're straight, then you have the vast majority of other games (or books, or films) to choose from. If you're gay, you don't. You have a very small number. If you find it hard to empathise, it's because you're not experiencing an equivalent situation.dbenoy said:Personally I don't care. If there was a game out there that only allowed you to marry the type of person I'm not interested in, or only let me play as a woman or something, I'd just go with it, or maybe I wouldn't, and I'd just go find another game, so it's hard for me to empathize with people who freak out.
I suppose that makes sense, like in an "arg! I wish there was something out there for me!" kind of way, but even from that perspective I have trouble empathizing. I just don't know what it's like to have my identity so tightly wrapped up in my sexual orientation that I actually start rejecting media because the characters I'm playing as don't want to love the same things I want to love. It seems like such a trivial thing to hate a game over.Silvanus said:Well, if you're straight, then you have the vast majority of other games (or books, or films) to choose from. If you're gay, you don't. You have a very small number. If you find it hard to empathise, it's because you're not experiencing an equivalent situation.
Hey. I'm sorry to be the one to have to tell you this, but I've got some bad news. It isn't just men that date each other. Sometimes two women will fall in love, and then you don't get either of them. Homosexuality is kind of a wash from a standpoint of increasing your eligibility as a bachelor.ExtraDebit said:While I whole heartedly cheer for gay people, my logic being the more they want men the more women are left for me...
It's not that my identity is wrapped up in my sexuality; it's really not. I don't think about my sexuality often. Most gay people don't reject media with straight characters (I've never met any that do).dbenoy said:I suppose that makes sense, like in an "arg! I wish there was something out there for me!" kind of way, but even from that perspective I have trouble empathizing. I just don't know what it's like to have my identity so tightly wrapped up in my sexual orientation that I actually start rejecting media because the characters I'm playing as don't want to love the same things I want to love. It seems like such a trivial thing to hate a game over.
Maybe I'd have to experience it to know. Maybe I'd have to live in a world where every character has relationship interests that I wouldn't share, and then I'd understand and I'd get all grumpy about it.