Jimquisition: Toxic

[UberPubert]

"Embrace your anger"? You sound like a Sith lord.

The Jedi were all dicks, so where's the downside?

And the Sith weren't?

I'm not even making a plea to side with the lesser evil here, I'm just saying not to embrace the philosophy of the side that is CLEARLY evil.

 

[Ishal]

Yeah, I agree. We should be sparing with our anger. But it shouldn't be said it's a bad thing to get angry over these things. And worse, to say that we're entitled like it's a bad thing. We spend much more for our product than a lot of other media consumers, that makes us entitled.

The rage might have finally shoved Bioware in a new direction
The rage (responsive btw) to Fish's own toxicity made him leave
EA stated that they might "consider" an offline mode for Sim City
Auction house is coming down from Diablo III
Gearbox was held to task over A:CM

My main gripe with the online toxicity is when it lacks content. Going to the BSN to tell them how bad they fucked up in a not nice manner is fine, as long as there is a reason for why they fucked up. Just telling them to fuck off isn't helping anything.

 

[hentropy]

It's a common conflict. Sometimes talking in calm, respectful tones doesn't accurately convey someone's displeasure with something, after all anger is just expressing the extreme of something. Publishers and developers simply will not respond or really listen to people who have legitimate gripes but aren't yelling about it, because it's assumed that those people will continue to buy the game because they didn't really hate it all that much. Expressing anger is the one way to nail the point home; people have a serious problem with the way you did something, it will hurt you in PR and will ultimately affect sales. Sometimes anger is the only real way to express what the extremeness of your actual opinion, and it shouldn't be suppressed because we all have to be stately gentlemen calmly working out our differences, because publishers and developers aren't willing to engage in those conversations. But legions of angry nerds? Yeah, they'll pay attention to that, even if they want to scoff at it or complain it's just a bunch of bile.

But as Jim said, one cannot flip their lid at every little thing, because then it just cheapens the effect of that outrage.

Pubs and devs rarely respond to "venom" in any meaningful way. When talking about video games the extent of the exchange usually begins and ends with a rash comment made over Twitter, or is silenced just a few posts in on a community forum where the topic is locked with a last word in from a moderator. What they do respond to is drops in sales, not the bile and hate that comes before it, because the actual comments being made - while directed at developers and publishers - are there for the viewing of the consumer, usually from game reviewers (professional or your youtube channel uploader of choice, for case in point see: The Angry Joe Show).

But I think we can do better than that. I think we can make our points, stand our ground and vote with our wallets without fuming at the ears over DLC or some nonsense and making broad, generalizing statements about pubs and devs.

EDIT: I don't think we need to get angry, and what's more, I think the kind of emotionally charged language we see from people who want us to get angry dilutes the message of what would otherwise be seen as calm and thoughtful criticism.

ME3 was a prime example of a developer responding directly to outrage over the ending. But furthermore, pubs don't seem to understand why people stop buying their product. EA is a prime example of this: they respond to lower sales by saying "well we have to broaden the appeal and make it more likable." when in reality that is why people hate it, and all of a sudden Mass Effect is just a Halo clone. So yeah, we can "vote with our wallets" but there's no guarantee that they'll actually get the message.

I'm not talking so much about message board venom or whatever, but an outrage amongst a very large group of people, that spans beyond the local message boards? That can and has made companies respond in the past, and even if they don't directly address it at first, it could very well affect their decision-making going forward. You better believe that Bioware is going to put more thought in their endings from now on, not just a vague and ambiguous "we didn't like it" in the form of not buying it anymore, but letting them know exactly what people didn't like about it and what they can do to fix it. Publishers have proven they're not going to listen to it unless people are yelling, so that's what people do.

 

[veloper]

Ugh. I just couldn't watch that last bit, from the expo panel scene and whatever may have followed. Jim's meglomania schtick is just getting a bit too silly for my tastes. Maybe it's time for a new game.

Anyway, the usual counterargument against the preachy part, is that gamers not a hivemind.

Now you could make some generalizations about the active Escapist crowd, but then we're not behind the death threats to miss Hamburger Helper and stuff like that.
There may be angry flamers here and maybe even a couple funny trolls among the regulars, but that cannot reflect on this community as a whole.

There's not so much hate. It's disapproval, criticism and disappointment that's filling those long threads.

 

[Agayek]

Toxic

There has been much talk about how the gaming world is too toxic, too negative, too full of anger and rage. Jimquisition argues there might be just the right amount of it. The issue is in how it's used.
Anger is a powerful weapon, but like all powerful things, it must be handled with care. Venom can be harnessed to our benefit, provided we be careful not to let it spill into our own faces.

Watch Video

There's a lot of pokemon in this episode. Have you been playing X or Y recently?

 

[UberPubert]

ME3 was a prime example of a developer responding directly to outrage over the ending. But furthermore, pubs don't seem to understand why people stop buying their product. EA is a prime example of this: they respond to lower sales by saying "well we have to broaden the appeal and make it more likable." when in reality that is why people hate it. So yeah, we can "vote with our wallets" but there's no guarantee that they'll actually get the message.

I'm not talking so much about message board venom or whatever, but an outrage amongst a very large group of people, that spans beyond the local message boards? That can and has made companies respond in the past, and even if they don't directly address it at first, it could very well affect their decision-making going forward. You better believe that Bioware is going to put more thought in their endings from now on.

But there was also a lot of rage about one of the ME3 characters - a very crucial character - being barred from user access by a paywall, and yet nothing was done. Everyone was really angry about EA including microtransactions into Dead Space 3 and yet they still exist.

Implying that the changes were made due to internet outrage where the results look checkerboarded at best seems like confirmation bias: You can't point to a complaint in the past and say that any change (heck, Jim even argues that EA "addressing" the Sim City anger meant progress) made after is a direct result of that complaint, it just means that there was a lot of anger surrounding the issue at the time, where the actual reasoning behind the decision being made pub/dev side is mostly obscured to us.

But I'd be willing to bet drops in sales and terrible metacritic scores had more to do with it than angry complaints.

 

[Muspelheim]

"Embrace your anger"? You sound like a Sith lord.

In my mind, he's a (rather portly) Death Knight general, now.

"Harness your hatred. Make it useful."

http://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wowpedia.org/thumb/3/36/Highlord_Darion_Mograine.jpg/479px-Highlord_Darion_Mograine.jpg

Honestly, it's perfectly alright to feel angry. But it's of no use if it isn't aimed at the one who buggered it all up in the first place. Usually someone in the boardroom, and not some nameless developer who've spent the last month texturing twitter speak scrawled on guns for the next useless DLC on the line.

 

[Something Amyss]

I'm not even making a plea to side with the lesser evil here, I'm just saying not to embrace the philosophy of the side that is CLEARLY evil.

From the Jedi perspective, perhaps. But then, only a Sith speaks in absolutes.

 

[Goliath100]

Anita is a figurehead for a larger issue, one that's been building up in gaming for quite some time. As such, she's been rather scapegoated for the larger issue, so I disagree with the concept that it could only be directed at one person.

A lot of gamers are mad or resentful that women are being allowed into their tree fort[footnote]you can actually find many such sentiments on the Escapist forums[/footnote], and she came along and represented these things to a lot of people. In effect, this is the same result as yelling at a CEO for something that likely wasn't their doing. Or, to borrow someone else's botched comparison, it would be like blaming Rosa Parks (A rallying point) for the civil rights movement (something which had been going on well before Parks sat down on that bus).

This is what I hate with Sarkeesian; her supporters (or the defence of her). Rosa Parks, really? How long have Sarkeesian been in jail? Where do the comparison become more than superficial? Nowhere, that's where. Rosa Parks is only mentioned in a desperate attempt to borrow sympathy. Every argument defending Sarkeesian is about sympathy, like it's a valid argument in itself. Every support relies only on sympathy.

Well, that is not strictly true. I have seen people defend her points, but they also criticized her weak film making.

 

[UberPubert]

"Embrace your anger"? You sound like a Sith lord.

In my mind, he's a (rather portly) Death Knight general, now.

"Harness your hatred. Make it useful."

The juxtaposition of that quote and the image of him sitting on a horse made me smile.

Yes, I know it's a saddle on the horse, not a harness, but I still like the idea of a cart being driven by pure rage.

 

[UberPubert]

From the Jedi perspective, perhaps. But then, only a Sith speaks in absolutes.

Well, the Sith are clearly evil, but I wouldn't call them absolutely evil.

After all, in his final moments, even Darth Vader tried to redeem himself.

 

[Moth_Monk]

How fortunate, then, that it doesn't have to. The goal isn't getting /v/ to stop acting like fuckwads, but rather the rest of us. And even then, it doesn't have to be all of us. See? It works out after all.

What are you on? How are we going to "get" the rest of us to stop acting like fuckwads. Nevermind the fact that the rest of us aren't acting like fuckwads, you can't force people to do things. And especially not by talking in a video on the Internet. The only people that will take home Jim's morals are the people that weren't the "problem" in first place. Sort of like gun control.

 

[geier]

You are, as allways, right jim, but:
As allways you expect too much from your fellow men.

Have you ever seen a "low" store employee being chewed out by a customer?
It mostly happens because the store policy doesn't coincide with their expectations.

This happens every day, in every store in every country of this planet. And this employees earn maybe one percent of a community director or spokesperson of a videogame company.
What do i want to say with this?

Well,
first: It's their job and they get paid well for it.
Second: It's not a thing unique to gamer culture.
third: It's humans nature, you are fighting windmills here and you are using a toothpick as a lance.

 

[Sonder Saunters]

The advertisement playing next to the video was a yoga demonstration. Now put your legs in to the juxta-position.

 

[deathjavu]

How fortunate, then, that it doesn't have to. The goal isn't getting /v/ to stop acting like fuckwads, but rather the rest of us. And even then, it doesn't have to be all of us. See? It works out after all.

What are you on? How are we going to "get" the rest of us to stop acting like fuckwads. Nevermind the fact that the rest of us aren't acting like fuckwads, you can't force people to do things. And especially not by talking in a video on the Internet. The only people that will take home Jim's morals are the people that weren't the "problem" in first place. Sort of like gun control.

It's actually physically impossible for people to encounter an opinion without it altering them in some way. Basic physics. Add stuff to a physical system (in this case, sound and light signals to a brain), the physical system changes. Period. The idea that discussing ideas is "totally pointless cause the other side's never gonna change, man," is self-fulfilling, fundamentally untrue and generally used to mask laziness and indifference as sincere resignation after trying hard and failing.

 

[Imp_Emissary]

Spoiler: 0.0 Don't open this.

Spoiler: D: I mean it!

Spoiler: Something evil got in here!

Spoiler: For the love of God, and Jim don't open this!

Spoiler: Why are you still opening these? :/ You wrote it didn't you?

This is bollocks Jim. You refer to "us", "we", the so-called "gaming community" etc. as if you're appealing to some singular collective. What you're actually doing is shouting into a cave. There isn't this "us" really. There's just individuals that buy, play and talk about video games.

Moviebob does this kind of thing too: Lengthy seminars about what the ideals of "the gaming community" ought to be. I have to raise an eyebrow when the rhetoric gets this political. It's like there's this idea that the gaming community is political movement or something.

The only people who your soapboxing will affect are the people that talk about video games professionally, video gaming journos (and bloggers who wish they were journos), who will go on to echo this stuff. Everyone else in your viewership i.e. average joes that play video games from time to time will give you a pat on the head for letting us here a good rant but that's about it.

You should know by now that no amount of soapboxing is going to stop the occasional few, individual haters from haters and the /v/ trolls from trolling. They're going to do what they want.

Edit: On the thing about "mekkin us luk bahd" - you do realise that the "non-gaming community" [whatever the hell that is] does not give a damn about "us"?

TL;DR: Stop taking fun so seriously, ffs.

Any who.

These videos aren't for the unreasonable. They don't even watch the videos. They go straight to calling Jim names. Time savers that they are.

These are for rational people who watch Jim's show, but may every once in a while let their emotions get the best of them, and go after people they maybe shouldn't.

Also, the reason we care about how online "toxicity" is not because we care about how people not in our "culture" view us, but because we care how it looks, to us.

As for who "us" is? Anyone here who happens to care.

This is the kind of guided anger I am talking about.

You learned more than you let on.

One question about this all, Jim. How do we find out who to direct our anger at?

 

[Redd the Sock]

Toxicity is really only half a phrase. It's usually needed to be prefaced by "the other guys'" because really that's what it comes down to. Excessive anger at ME3's ending = bad and will ruin games as art as creators will be too afraid to create. Anger at how women are portrayed = perfectly fine as games will become stronger by being encouraged to make what I want. Death threats at Anita S. = representative of the whole of gamer culture. Death Threats to Mike K. at Penny arcade over some disrespectful tweets about transgendered: just a vocal minority, don't judge us all, or they were even wholly justified. Even the commentary about "gamer culture" seems to involve a lot of insults, shaming, indifference to our opinions, stereotyping, and other things we'd never be allowed to get away with because it's all "toxic"

Out anger is fine and righteous. Anyone else's is just whining. Worse, we even do things we know will piss people off an get surprised at their anger. Most of us probably know those people in real life: they do thing they know annoy us and expect us to "get over it" rather than think about their own behaviour. I just find there to be a sub-textual level of selfishness and narcissism behind complaints of negativity because they're rotting in things like "why aren't you thinking about me, why do you expect me to think about you, why do I have to change, why do you concern yourself with things I don't deem important" instead of being rooting in methods and terminology. Most seem to get upset at the opinions themselves rather than how they're put out there.

 

[Frankster]

Meh i figured from title this was finally the episode where jim sterling does a britney spears dance video so slightly disappointed.

*waits till end credits*

:')

 

[1337mokro]

Hang on! Hang on!

What we saw was people pouring toxic on a woman who in the end totally ended up deserving it. Making nothing but a meandering, disjointed, contextual jumbled clip show where she points at things and says "Look at that.", no discussion of the effects it has or the possible reason behind it's use. No just a fancy clip show really. Kind of what TVtropes does but in video form.

Now was the toxic bile deserved at first? No, it was mostly knee jerk manchildren crying about their toys being shown in a bad light. Are they deserved now? Completely because it ended up being nothing but a biased clip shows that regularly insults gamers as a whole and men specifically multiple times by insinuating these types of people are nothing more than cavemen mentality idiots that can feel exactly 3 emotions, anger, shame and arousal.

Not to mention the blatant plagiarism where footage is used from other people without even crediting them. If I pulled shit like that I'd be expelled from the university.

So can we stop playing up Sarkeesian as anything but a lazy fraud with a feminist agenda? Are we done with the white knighting Jim?

PS: I have watched what has been released of the series so far and found it severely lacking in substance, discussion and depth.

PPS: Also goodbye Phil Fish!!!


Misguided rage is the nasty side effect of the rage turbines over heating. Sadly it is also something we can get past and we should just do so. You can't put out the rage fire but you can suffocate it by taking away it's oxygen, your attention.

EDIT: Can't believe I actually have to say this specifically but seeing as 6 people already had their heads explode when reading this post I am going to do it anyway. I had thought it to be unnecessary but hey, guess I gave people to much credit for being reasonable, faith in humanity adjusted back to -56 points.

Of course the rape threats, death threats and other assault or whatever else kind of threat you can think of is not warranted. It is never warranted to threaten anyone, however never in this video was the word toxic response used to refer to such absolutely disgusting things.

No the toxic response was one where people go mad with rage at perceived slights or single out a person to blame for all the faults in a production. Not once was the word toxic response used in the manner of actual threats, yet some people saw it as me openly supporting sending death threats to people making pointless videos on the internet. Well let me assure you that it was just your over active imaginations. I suggest not spending so much time online, you might learn that there exist decent people that don't approve of acting like despicable human beings.

The toxic response I was alluding to when I said it was deserved was about people calling Sarkeesian a fraud, incompetent, a swindler, a feminist propagandist, a pointless feminist version of TV tropes and so on. You know the regular hate mail that won't land you in fucking jail and turned out to be nothing but 100% accurate accusations. The kind of toxic response referred to several times during the video itself where developers were called frauds, hacks, conmen, liars and so on to let them know exactly where they screwed up? The kind of toxic response with the Jimquisition seal of approval?

Are we 100% clear on this now? Threats = Bad. Criticism and accusations = Okay. Or am I going to get a few more pointless messages railing at me about how I am a horrible person for supporting rape threats?

 

[Erttheking]

Hang on! Hang on!

What we saw was people pouring toxic on a woman who in the end totally ended up deserving it.

No, no no no no no no no no no no no. I couldn't get any further in your post after that. Anita deserved rape threats? She deserved to have games made about her being punched in the face? Why? What the Hell did she do to deserve any of that? How for the love of all that is holy can you say that ANY of that is justified because a woman had the guts to make a kickstarter and three youtube videos?

It's gotten so bad that even if people turned out to be right about the whole fraud thing (Isn't convinced they are) I would still be disgusted at them because frankly even if she was in the wrong, the reaction against her was so over the top and so much overkill that I cannot sympathize with the people heralding it in any way.

Because you want to know the messed up part? I thought that her videos were boring as sin from the moment they came out but I still feel the obligation to pipe up to defend her whenever these arguments of her "Deserving it" pop up because people are taking a woman who committed the awful crime of making mediocre videos and are trying to paint her as the fucking anti-christ!