Jimquisition: Toxic

[UberPubert]

devs rarely respond to "venom" in any meaningful way.

Aside from retconning a shitty ME3 ending with DLC, admitting that D3 was a pile of shit, firing CEOs over simcity, and having almost all of the anti-consumer DRM stripped from the Xbone... yeah, aside from all that, venom hasn't done shit. Phooey on venom.

Only, the ending to ME3 wasn't retconned, it just got an extended cut. It's still the three color ending with the tacked on addition of a short fourth. No one has admitted D3 was a pile of shit, ActiBlizzard just wanted to fine tune the auction system because of how it didn't work with the loot drop system. No one was fired over the SimCity launch, John Riccitello stepped down because for a very long time while he was in charge EA's stocks looked like this http://i361.photobucket.com/albums/oo56/UberPubert/ku-xlarge_zpsa0882a10.png, which you can see includes years before the Sim City release.

The one single point you have is the Xbox One and I'd even contest that it wasn't a result of internet rage but rather Sony's moves to disregard Microsoft's practices. That's what you do in a business, change your product to be more competitive.

 

[UberPubert]

But what do you consider "higher"? To make mistakes is human nature, and it's unreasonable to think anyone can be perfect. Here's the truth. What happens if this "utopia" of yours comes to fruition? Will unhappiness cease? Will it put a stop to death? Can a perfect world be created where everyone single person is happy? What is your definition of "higher"? The truth is terrible things happen all the time, and will continue to happen no matter what because it is human nature. Humans cannot not aspire to be greater than they are. You're chasing an ideal. But there are people who are smart, they have more information than those that surround them, and they use to spread more fear and gain power.

I don't think I am misunderstanding you. If I am, you're not even trying to correct. I am pretty sure I understand you just fine. So if you don't have an objective to "win" and no fear of "losing", then what was the point of what you were trying to say before? I'm not psychic, pal. You have to be clear in what you're trying to say.

That last bit there,"Logic does, yes, present things as black and white, but obviously not everyone uses logic, so the world remains grey" doesn't make any damn sense. I'm getting the sense that you're trying to mess with the usage of words to fit your own agenda. "The world remains grey." What is that even supposed to mean? The world isn't grey because of "tough choices" or the "people who make the world a harsh place". "Grey", at least in the context we're using here, means that there is no right or wrong choice. As long as every choice in the world is presented with a clear right answer then that makes the world a Black and White place.

Mistakes are not inherent to human nature, they're a byproduct of biological deficiencies. No human was ever admired for a mistake they made and I'd only like for people to be right more than wrong. I'm not talking about utopia or the pursuit of happiness I'm just talking basic critical thinking and problem solving skills, things we should have learned in schools but forget to use in our daily lives all too often. I think people can improve because history shows that's been the case, otherwise you and I would not be having this conversation, we'd be beating each other over the head with sticks.

I'm only tying to explain what I think, the short summary being "persuasion is a tool for getting people to do what you say", "you don't need to persuade someone in order for you to do it yourself" and "I don't need to convince you of anything during this conversation, I'm only making my intentions clear".

I mean that because not everyone uses logic, or is in a position to make logical decisions (lacking information, under duress, etc) that the world is still mostly a grey area without clear answers. Logic is about finding those answers, but like with any mathematical equation, you don't always have all the variables spelled out to you. That's why I don't immediately start an argument with statements, rather with questions, to hear the entirety of the matter.

 

[irishda]

There are things in life to get very mad about. Practically everything video game related is not one of them.

 

[Erttheking]

If he starts his post off basically saying that Anita had the rape threats coming, then really I think I've heard enough of his argument.

Have you ever seen a mean looking big burly guy on a bus or train or whatever?
Next time you do, go up to them and say "fuck you and your mother".
Chances are your gonna get punched in the face. Did you deserve that?
Strictly speaking no, the guy should have held off, but dont think for a second you
dont have part of the blame for knowingly causing trouble.

So why is Anita a special case. Why does she get no blame for pissing off
a community infamous for vitrol for those who oppose them? It's because she has a vagina.

But even then I went back and read his post. It's the same justifications I've heard a million times by people who try to justify this massive hate towards Anita and I've heard a thousand times by now, and frankly they all just ring hollow to me.People always hated her from the minute she made herself known.

She was known before the kickstarter on /v/.
And justifying hate, you make it sound like people hate her because shes a woman,
wich isn't a suprising coming from someone such as yourself.

Frankly it just feels like they're looking for evidence to support a conclusion they've already reached.

The irony of this statement is laughable.
Also whatever you feel like has fuckall to do with reality.

If someone is going to open his post with a generalization like that, he really shouldn't directly contradict what he said later on.

Were getting into an irony combo here

If she "totally ended up deserving it" he shouldn't have to say "but no one deserves the rape threats" Like I said before, even if she ended up being in the wrong I still wouldn't be able to sympathize with the people who were against her because their reaction was so uncalled for and so overkill that frankly I don't even care if they ended up being right, their actions were still uncalled for.

I explained this already so read above

Bush and Obama were both presidents of the United States, directed were trillions of dollars in tax payers money went, made choices in wars that led to the death of thousands one way or another, and may have had direct hands in spying on US citizens. I think comparing those two to a woman who makes Youtube videos is a bit of false equivalence.

So a TL;DR version of this would be:

"Punching presidents in a video game: A-Okay

Punching women in video game: OH MY GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU!!!!!!!"

No double standards here. Besides it's not just presidents, there are many punching games about hated public figures.
Oh and killing Randy Pitchford in cold blood over a video game is still apparently A-Okay.

I think we should be less concerned that Anita is someone who randomly walks up to people and says fuck you and your mother and I think we should be more concerned that apparently gamers are big scary men that punch people in the face with little to no provocation. If you honestly think that station describes us with us being the big asshole that shouldn't be provoked than I think we need to do some serious soul searching. Right right, because that woman who got on the Mass Effect sex scenes and called the Xbox the Sexbox completely got off because of her gender.

No, I was talking about the Tropes Vs Woman debacle, which is where she got mainstream attention and I'm talking about how people hated the videos before it even came out and dubbed them to be shit before they even saw them. Also, they're probably in the minority, but are you honestly going to tell me that no one hates her for exactly that reason? Also, would you care to explain exactly what that is supposed to mean?

Uh...how? And it's not how I "feel" I'm just pointing out that a lot of people reached their conclusion about the quality of Anita's videos before they even came out and haven't budged an inch since then.

Again, you're gonna have to explain what I'm doing that's wrong.

Likewise

Did Anita spy on millions of Americans and start a war that killed somewhere from 60,000 to a million people? No? Well then pardon me if that feels like false equivalence. And I never said that I approved of that, frankly it disgusts me, but at least the anger behind the people is for issues that actually warrant a massive backlash and their anger is understandable because, well, what Bush and Obama do is serious grade stuff.

Anita on the other hand...not really. And I never said that the mess with Randy Pitchford was ok, Christ, I said way back when on the Homeworld 2 remake thread that I really feel sorry for Gearbox because of all the crap they get for Colonial Marines and how people won't let it go. I never liked that story, but then again we're not talking about that story right now, so I didn't bring it up.

 

[Sanunes]

Mistakes are not inherent to human nature, they're a byproduct of biological deficiencies. No human was ever admired for a mistake they made and I'd only like for people to be right more than wrong.

Christopher Columbus got lost trying to find a shorter way to Asia and instead found America

The discovery of penicillin was also the byproduct of a mistake, a researcher left a culture uncovered was contaminated by mould.

I also wonder how many successes are based on the mistakes or failures of that researcher before, for nobody I know gets everything right on the first try.

 

[chikusho]

Wow, Jim has quite an excellent maniacal cackle.

This is bollocks Jim. You refer to "us", "we", the so-called "gaming community" etc. as if you're appealing to some singular collective. What you're actually doing is shouting into a cave. There isn't this "us" really. There's just individuals that buy, play and talk about video games.

Moviebob does this kind of thing too: Lengthy seminars about what the ideals of "the gaming community" ought to be. I have to raise an eyebrow when the rhetoric gets this political. It's like there's this idea that the gaming community is a political movement or something.

The only people who your soapboxing will affect are the people that talk about video games professionally, video gaming journos (and bloggers who wish they were journos), who will go on to echo this stuff. Everyone else in your viewership i.e. average joes that play video games from time to time will give you a pat on the head for letting us here a good rant but that's about it.

You should know by now that no amount of soapboxing is going to stop the occasional few, individual haters from hating and the /v/ trolls from trolling. They're going to do what they want.

Edit: On the thing about "mekkin us luk bahd" - you do realise that the "non-gaming community" [whatever the hell that is] does not give a damn about "us"?

TL;DR: Stop taking fun so seriously, ffs.

So... what you are saying is that Jim is not talking about you, yet you still found a way to make it about you?
Am I the only one who senses a disconnect here?

 

[UberPubert]

Christopher Columbus got lost trying to find a shorter way to Asia and instead found America

The discovery of penicillin was also the byproduct of a mistake, a researcher left a culture uncovered was contaminated by mould.

I also wonder how many successes are based on the mistakes or failures of that researcher before, for nobody I know gets everything right on the first try.

But Christopher Columbus didn't discover America, it was already inhabited. And he wasn't even the first European to find it, Leif Ericcson had him beat and it wasn't by mistake, he was following in his father's footsteps from Greenland. Besides that, by using the standard of "finding a shorter way to Asia", he failed. The Spanish didn't celebrate Colombus's findings because he made a mistake, they celebrated the fact that he found something else.

The discovery of penicillin wasn't a mistake, leaving the dish out was a mistake. Alexander Fleming wasn't praised because he accidentally left the cover off a petri dish, it was because of the discovery he made afterwards.

Successes aren't based on the mistakes or failures of those that came before, they're based upon the successes. You cannot build anything based on faulty information. Mistakes can be learned from and when possible avoided in order to find a better outcome but they're not anything to base actions on. No one tries something for the sole reason that someone else failed at it.

 

[Atmos Duality]

This is just awful.

"Venom" is not a substitute for rational discourse, anger is not a proper alternative to logic and no amount of internet nerd rage is going to change the mind of someone who sees it for what it is: Impotent whining from someone who lacks the power to change things in the real world and has to take it to the internet, where they can hide behind an anonymous username and block dissenting opinions and comments, handwaving away legitimate complaints as virtual harassment.

Thank goodness someone said this.
I really wish that the vocal gaming public would adopt more rational reasoning, but given the growing rift in trust between customer and publisher (with most developers being unfortunate pawns, though they aren't entirely innocent), the response of increasing irrational anger is not only expected, but unfortunately seems increasingly effective in getting what you want.

ON TOPIC, MORE GENERALLY
Why respond with irrational toxicity?
Because it seems that companies are more likely to acknowledge irrational outrage than rational dissent.

Compare:
-Whiny gits with their false sense of entitlement got EA/Bioware's attention over ME3.
I'll be brutally honest: The outrage over the ME3 ending ultimately amounted to nothing more than disappointment and buyer's remorse. Which, while understandable, was still based on largely arbitrary expectations.

Spoiler: Before you start on ME3s ending

Yes, I know Bioware broke a promise directly, but demanding a rewrite of the ending still wouldn't change the bad structure of the plot because it was essentially neglected from ME2 onward.

The plot is written with too much "convenience" to ever live up to the series premise.
(This is why inconclusive fan-theories like Indoctrination Theory can work, and the difference between good "interpretative" endings and those from hack-writing.)

-Those who were debunked Blizzard's (and later, EA's) justification of Always Online for games that weren't and didn't need to be Always Online went completely ignored. Even though these changes fundamentally altered the design and availability of the games in question objectively for the worse.

They listened to the virtual temper tantrum, but not the well-reasoned arguments.

Which isn't to say that the two camps don't overlap; I saw plenty of irrational hatred and blind stupidity over the pre-180 Xbone arguing right alongside perfectly objective criticisms.

Still, why?

Mob Mentality? Anger does seem to spread faster than reason as anyone who has seen or been in a riot knows.
But why foster this mentality by selectively responding to it?

I dunno.

"Embrace your anger"? You sound like a Sith lord.

I will play Devil's Advocate here for a tiny bit: Logic without motivation is just as useless as impotent whining.
One can only detach themselves so much from the subject before losing interest, and thus their purpose in arguing in the first place.

In the greater scheme, Jaded gamers may contribute less and complain a lot, but they still care enough to complain (no matter how much we may overtly hate it). Someone who has become so disenfranchised as to be actually indifferent to subjects is likely to just leave the market entirely when confronted with a change for the worse.

That said, logic should be the means of getting our motivations realized; not blind anger.
Sadly, that isn't what is happening. Reason is being ignored, while sensationalist nonsense is what gets any attention.

 

[UberPubert]

I will play Devil's Advocate here for a tiny bit: Logic without motivation is just as useless as impotent whining.
One can only detach themselves so much from the subject before losing interest, and thus their purpose in arguing in the first place.

In the greater scheme, Jaded gamers may contribute less and complain a lot, but they still care enough to complain (no matter how much we may overtly hate it). Someone who has become so disenfranchised as to be actually indifferent to subjects is likely to just leave the market entirely when confronted with a change for the worse.

I actually made this argument earlier when I said that even a good scientist who uses empirical evidence is motivated by a love of discovery or hope for the future. I even recognize how this plays out on a smaller scale, for if I didn't care about videogames I wouldn't be on this forum and I certainly wouldn't be watching Jim's show, and I even care about the broader issues surrounding videogames or I'd just be playing videogames right now.

I think the difference is being able to remove one's self from the equation and not see bad decisions made by publishers (or anyone else for that matter) as personal offenses and that they might have good reasons for them, even if I don't benefit from them.

 

[UberPubert]

Jesus Christ, you're just a little ray of sunshine, aren't you? Let's look at this in a story format. When you're writing a character it's important to give him or her flaws. It makes for better story telling. These flaws aren't openly admired, but without them it would be hard to relate to any character. A character that is virtually perfect is called a Mary Sue. I personally detest Mary Sue's because they've got no character developement, no likeable personality, and are absolutely not interesting in the least. So tell me, what is the point of what you're saying if you have no endgame? You're telling me I'm misunderstanding you, but you're just not being clear. Why don't you just tell me what you want?What is the point of believing what you say if it doesn't bring people happiness or a utopia? Is there any reason? Yes, technology improves and so does education, but motives have not changed in the slightest. Weapons have changed from sticks to guns but they're still weapons and that never changes. Humans have change in semantics but they never "really" change.

But what is the point of what you're saying? I remember you say that already told me you're point, but you didn't. You're not being clear. You're all over the place! The argument is spread thin like butter over dry toast. You don't tell me what you hope this philosophy brings about, or how you hope to meet it using this code of yours! Now the argument is all about motive because so far you've failed to make yours clear! So, tell me what the point is. What do you hope to gain through this particular bit of conversation? You're intentions are unclear. You don't even know what the word means going off of how you're using it.

Listen, you're not using these terms correctly. When you use something like "grey" or "black and white" you're using them from your perspective. So, for example, if I say something, "The world is black and white," I really mean to say that the answers are clear. If I say something like, "The world is grey," I believe that there is no right or wrong.

In summary, you're a pussy-footer. You fail to realize even what you want and when you do you don't even have the courage to make leaps of faith when that's the only option you've been left with. If the world seldom gives all the information needed to make the best decision then it takes courageous people to do with what they have. I takes passion to realize what you want and courage to do anything. Instead you try to somehow make everybody happy by spreading your net to be more inclusive. But you're net is thin and easy to break. You never had a chance, son.

I'm not sure I understand your tangent on character development. I'm talking about people improving their thought processes, not on becoming well rounded fictional characters. People do have flaws, yes, some of those flaws even make them more interesting people, but when they can, people should strive to be better than they are. While people haven't changed much (we just don't evolve that fast) I think we can still learn and aim higher than those who came before us, and I think being reasonable people is a part of that.

The point of what I'm saying is just to tell you what I think, because you keep asking. No more, no less. I'm not trying to persuade you into doing something, I don't even expect you to learn anything, I'm just answering questions so as to not appear rude.

I'm actually not using those terms from my perspective because I recognize my perspective is not the only one that matters. I can say logic paints the world in black and white and say that someone else sees it as grey. Those aren't conflicting statements unless you start making assumptions about who that person is or what logic means. I am not, and am saying that because the two exist that the world can be seen in both ways, or more if you use other philosophies.

Well now, personal insults will get you nowhere with me. Yes, not all decisions can be logical because not all the variables are there, that doesn't mean the variables are never there or that when they're missing I won't ever act, it just means I'd prefer to use logic when I can, especially when the matter isn't terribly urgent or important. Take this very topic, for example: We're talking almost exclusively about people arguing at each other over the internet about videogames. It doesn't take "courage" to ignore facts and get angry in a virtual forum, that just sounds silly. It takes far more courage - I'd say - to ignore the majority opinion, even the one that the topic is based on, and pursue another avenue of thought.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I actually made this argument earlier...

Forgive me for not wanting to dig through the comments of a Jim Sterling video, but I believe you.
I've grown averse to reading those for my own reasons. Hopefully obvious reasons.

I think the difference is being able to remove one's self from the equation and not see bad decisions made by publishers (or anyone else for that matter) as personal offenses and that they might have good reasons for them, even if I don't benefit from them.

Personally, I do try to remove myself from the equation, looking for solutions, compromises, and limits with what I know.
(and obviously, trying not to offer anything conclusive without knowing the whole "equation". Ironically, in my line of work, I'm often forced to make due with educated guesses while looking for more accurate methods to getting solutions)

However, I also realize that there are times where "personal offense" is perfectly rational, like when a company blatantly lies to its customers for their gain. Dishonesty may serve them in ways I can understand, but it does nothing but reduce my motivation to do business with them.

Conversely, I don't try to assume that every single thing they do is inherently dishonest. It doesn't benefit them in the long run to alienate their customers with routine dishonesty. They have to offer some honest consistency or devalue what it is they're doing in the first place.

So in that way, I see the growing "gamer community toxicity" more broadly as a loss of trust between gamers and companies.
Namely from people who are so used to seeing dishonesty from these companies that they're assuming it by default.

 

[UberPubert]

So in that way, I see the growing "gamer community toxicity" more broadly as a loss of trust between gamers and companies.
Namely from people who are so used to seeing dishonesty from these companies that they're assuming it by default.

I think the problem is even broader than that in the way we see toxicity pop up on regular forums and towards people that aren't related to the industry. This is because I don't think this is a gamer-specific problem, but is more a people/society problem, and that more people could be helped by trying to be calm and critically thinking rather than angry, gamers included.

 

[Atmos Duality]

I think the problem is even broader than that in the way we see toxicity pop up on regular forums and towards people that aren't related to the industry. This is because I don't think this is a gamer-specific problem, but is more a people/society problem, and that more people could be helped by trying to be calm and critically thinking rather than angry, gamers included.

You could expand it to that if you wish; it has precedence given the reliance some people place in sensationalist mass media and the news for information for example. I'm was just trying to keep to the scope of the topic in gaming.

 

[UberPubert]

It's not an insult if it's the truth. I'm just telling how it is. You're too scared to make any decisions that may have an outcome you can't predict. It's pussy-footing is what it is. Sure, people who use passion to motivate themselves make mistakes, but I can speak from experience that it at least feels fulfilling. I'm not just talking about video games here either-- I'm talking about life now. People like you are too scared to step barefoot in the grass, despite how wonderful it feels: always wearing soles on your feet and calluses around your heart.

How has humanity improved since the last thousands of years? Besides technology and education people have not changed in their needs or desires. You have yet to prove differently. How can people strive to be better than they are when the chains holding them back are metaphorical?

You still have not given me any "real" motivation. Because you don't want to be rude? You clearly don't like me. Sorry, but most people don't feel the need to be polite to people they dislike. Your reasons are hollow. Or if all your worried about is appearances then you have even less reason to do what you do.

When you use a term such as "grey" you do so from your perspective whether you know so or not. Trying to do otherwise is confusing for the reader. Besides, that was not the excuse you gave last time to justify your writing.

You have a strange fixation on feet. I'm not afraid of anything, there's just some things I'd rather not do. If I have to continue with your metaphor, it's not the grass I'm adverse to, it's the snakes hiding in it I'd like to avoid. Just because I'd prefer we be logical about things doesn't mean we should exclude all else, we should just be wary of the mistakes that come with it.

I'm not sure what you're asking, do I think human biology has changed? No, but that was never my point. Logic is itself a product of education and academic thought, and technology a result of that, and both of those things are the only reason humanity has advanced at all. Otherwise we'd go back to the barbarian thing.

What do you mean, "clearly don't like" you? I disagree with you, I don't think that makes you a bad person. And I am one of those people that believes in being polite even to people I dislike, but I don't even dislike you, not really.

You keep implying things about the way I feel and about my perspective, and you keep getting it wrong. Again, I'm not really arguing that any one view is the best, not even my own, I'm saying there are different ones and they color the world in many different ways, and just because I'd rather we use logic doesn't mean anger or irrationality doesn't exist.

 

[Redlin5_v1legacy]

That laughing will echo throughout the ages.

 

[Deadagent]

I think we should be less concerned that Anita is someone who randomly walks up to people and says fuck you and your mother and I think we should be more concerned that apparently gamers are big scary men that punch people in the face with little to no provocation.

Intentionally provoking for profit. Yeah, nothing dishonest here.

If you honestly think that station describes us with us being the big asshole that shouldn't be provoked than I think we need to do some serious soul searching.

It represents a certain vocal minority. And that big guy isnt neccearily an asshole either, it's rather sensitive against insluts is all, but the fact that you are so ready to label people as assholes tellm me that you seriously have problems with taking other perspectives into consideration.

Right right, because that woman who got on the Mass Effect sex scenes and called the Xbox the Sexbox completely got off because of her gender. No, I was talking about the Tropes Vs Woman debacle, which is where she got mainstream attention and I'm talking about how people hated the videos before it even came out and dubbed them to be shit before they even saw them.

She had been making videos before the Tropes Vs Women kickstarter, the people who were against her, had seen her previous videos (the one about Bayonetta is very telling how much she knows about anything). Furthermore, she had given her general opinion in the kickstarter video. It was going to be negative and well, since this sort of feminism has been around forever its not to go to TvTropes or Wikipedia and look up what tropes shes going to be talking about and have a educated guess as to what she will have a problem with.

Also, they're probably in the minority, but are you honestly going to tell me that no one hates her for exactly that reason? Also, would you care to explain exactly what that is supposed to mean?

It seems as if you are trying to say that there aren't any
legimate reasons to take issue not only what she is saying, but her as a person.
As if only reason anyone hates her is because she is a woman.

Uh...how? And it's now how I "feel" I'm just pointing out that a lot of people reached their conclusion about the quality of Anita's videos before they even came out and haven't budged an inch since then.

Mostly because their predictions came true, she didnt use her own footage, [http://victorsopinion.blogspot.be/2013/07/anitas-sources.html]
her video quality didn't improve.
And her "research" is almost verbatim from Wikipedia and TvTropes.org

And all this for the low low price of $160k

Again, you're gonna have to explain what I'm doing that's wrong.

You havent done anything wrong as far as I can tell. I just dont agree with you

Did Anita spy on millions of Americans and start a war that killed somewhere from 60,000 to a million people? No? Well then pardon me if that feels like false equivalence. And I never said that I approved of that, frankly it disgusts me, but at least the anger behind the people is for issues that actually warrant a massive backlash and their anger is understandable because, well, what Bush and Obama do is serious grade stuff.

Anita on the other hand...not really.

Well, the Backstreet boys didnt really do anything as harmful as start a war, but here they are [http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/241705]

Either it's okay to make a game about beating anyone, or it isn't.

And I never said that the mess with Randy Pitchford was ok, Christ, I said way back when on the Homeworld 2 remake thread that I really feel sorry for Gearbox because of all the crap they get for Colonial Marines and how people won't let it go. I never liked that story, but then again we're not talking about that story right now, so I didn't bring it up.

Im bringing the story up because it's utterly hypocritical to cry about death and rape threats,
while endorsing a story about yourself killing someone.

 

[UberPubert]

Wow, dude you just agreed with me. I was implying that you were afraid of the things you couldn't see, such as snakes and shards of glass, and you just confirmed it. So yeah, why not just tell me I'm right?

Well, people have changed biologically over the years. For example, people have grown taller over the centuries and you can tell by visiting old forts. You have to crouch in order to look through the windows that used to be eye level. The buildings never changed, people have. I'm not arguing about physical changes. I'm arguing that human nature never changes. People create new tools that fulfill the same purpose that the old tools did.

Meanwhile, you keep saying that I'm "misunderstand" you but you never tell me WHAT I'm getting wrong and never use anything to disprove me. It's almost as if you assume I'll take what your saying on faith. The burden of proof is on you, my friend. if I get something wrong you exploit it. That's is how you win arguments. Now you're trying to say that no view is better than any other, but in you're original post you said that you believe that people shouldn't let emotions dictate actions, which is a view! So which is it?!

Sorry, but I don't share your sentiment. Maybe I would be polite if I respected you but I find it hard to do even that. You're hypocritical, your reasoning is hollow, and even when you argue you seem to agree with me. To me those are the symptoms of a person scared. A timid person that doesn't even realize what he is. How can you claim to know anything when you don't know yourself?

Actually you didn't say anything about things I couldn't see, such as snakes and shards of glass, you were talking about being barefoot and having heart callouses. And again, I'm not afraid of snakes or shards of glass, but I know that they can hurt and would rather avoid them. Just because someone doesn't want to do something wrong doesn't mean they're too scared to do it, sometimes it just means they don't want to do something wrong.

And actually, we have good reason to believe humans growing taller isn't a result of evolution, but rather more proper nutrition and other advances in child care (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-are-we-getting-taller). Of course, I'm not arguing about physical changes either and never was, I do argue against your definition of human nature but only in that you think it can't at all be changed or treated over a persons's lifetime. And of course it can - the very act of learning is proof of this. It is not in our nature to pick up a pen and write, we do not know laws as instinct, the only thing that is in our "nature" is to eat, sleep, and procreate (as in, survive), everything else is a change in our nature, and obviously we've come a long way. Infants start back at square one, of course, but everything else is learned.

What do you mean I'm not telling you what you're getting wrong? I keep saying you're making assumptions about what I think or how I feel and I keep telling you you're wrong about them. I don't have to prove what you've said about me is wrong, you would have to prove that what you said is right for me to even disprove it. What's more to be said than that? And I never said no view is better than any other, I said logic isn't the best, and it's because of the same reasons I noted earlier, being that the variables required to make a logical decision aren't always apparent.

More oddly inaccurate personal insults... Oh boy. I'm not hypocritical, you're just drawing very strange conclusions from what I've said in such a way that they seem opposed, but they do not. My reasoning is the opposite of hollow, I've said little to nothing that wasn't at some point rooted in simple observable fact, though I could address your complaints point by point if you'd make them. Once again I'm not scared or timid of anything, if anything I prefer the terms careful, vigilant, alert, attentive, wary, etc. I don't live in fear of things happening to me, I just prefer to avoid unnecessary risks, which includes the risk of letting my emotions get the better of my judgement.